So my setting has a few fundamental laws which help govern the universe. The Law of Mortality is basically the law that dictates that living beings get a certain allotment of time and must expire when that time is up. Things such as undead, creation of undead, and the unnatural extension of life are violations of this Law. There IS an allowance for resurrection magic in the law (Basically non-revivify rez spells involve a skill challenge); The law has a specific allowance for 5 Revivifys before it's considered a violation. A person can make reparations for the violation by destroying Undead, Necromancers, Those who have unnaturally extended their lifespans, or consecrating corrupted burial sites.
What I need help with is poking holes in this so I can tweak it and shore it up.
(Important note: The arbiters of this fundamental law are not interested in good or evil, just upkeeping this law)
Give us some concrete examples of how this would work and describe to me the idea of how the scales of justice should work in this instance.
For example, I can understand An Eye for an Eye. I can understand You Lose a Hand When You are Caught Stealing (I'm not saying I agree with it, just that I understand it).
But what is the measure for The Scales of Life in this arena?
A PC is born with 80 life points (?) and each year they expend a point. If they are killed before their 80th point is used, someone owes someone else the remaining points? Would the PC receive a point for "Restoring the Scales of Life" by killing 100 undead, or consecrating a battlefield where 100s died before their points were used up?
Then, turning this around, what happens to the characters for killing a being before their life points are used up? Do the PCs become cursed for which they must atone in a manner suitable to "The Scales of Life"?
Once I understand the manner in which The Scales of Life would work, then we can talk about the unnatural manner where the players revivify and resurrect PCs and NPCs.
Think each mortal is assigned an amount of time when they come into existence; This amount of time represents potential years of life. It is not permitted for them to extend past the cap but they can be cut short. I think maybe there is a finite pool of energy used to create/sustain life and those whose years are cut short, their extra years go back into the pool.
In regards to destroying Undead to make good on a violation it's basically they're assigned a sum based on the crime and each destroyed Undead lessens that amount (Likely based on CR but they won't know that) until they hit a total of 0 at which their debt is considered paid.
Murder is a perfectly acceptable thing to these arbiters as it only shortens a lifespan.
The point that MusicScout is bringing up is interesting, though. Those governing entities are not quite 'fair'. What happens to the unrealized potential that was allotted to someone? Can you steal it and use it for your own?
If you murder someone, you quite literally steal their time, even if you can't use it yourself. They eye-for-an-eye understanding would suggest, you steal someone's time, you need to pay up some of your own.
So what if you (accidentally) kill a young child that had 70 years to go, but you are only allotted another 10? Do you have to serve the community for 60 years as a zombie?
Why is resurrection magic bad, when you still have unrealized time left at the time of your demise? Wouldn't that balance the scales in that case? Or is this only meant for instances when you try to extend your time beyond what was given?
The concept is quite intriguing, but it leaves me with many questions ;)
Edit: If the arbiters are indeed OK with shortening time, and punish you if you try to reclaim your own time by using resurrection magic, I would indeed classify them as evil.
It sounds like all downside and there is no Justice involved, only greed on the part of the mediators. So I have to agree this just sounds like some background lore for one of the demon planes or the planes of hell. Who are the lore-wise keepers of life force? I know there is a group, like the Hags or someone. I guess this would put some more lore into that arena.
And on this basis, who would ever want the scales to be balanced if someone wanted to use a resurrect spell? It seems you're just stealing your life force back.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I think maybe there is a finite pool of energy used to create/sustain life and those whose years are cut short, their extra years go back into the pool.
To answer the questions about unused years.
Right now the punishment for violating the Law of Mortality with resurrection magic is an imposed state of "Half-life" until reparations are made.
My thoughts for why resurrection magic is a violation of the law is because when you die, your unspent years are supposed to return to this finite pool and are then redistributed among new life. So in a way resurrection magic is like a minor extension of one's life.
Regarding the question about life-extending magic; It's mentioned in the original post as a violation.
How is the life pool distributed? Do newborns get a certain amount? Is it averaged out to everyone under a certain age? The players probably can't exploit it, but it would be nice to have for lore purposes.
Do I understand your system of time given correctly, when I look at it as an allowance? Your parents give you an allowance of $50, and tell you not to squander it. If you go spend your money all on icecream, it's on you, you have wasted it all without creating value from it. But what if the bully takes it from you? Will your parents be upset? Will they talk to the bully or his parents to get it back to you? Are you responsible for another's actions?
I would have the same questions for the arbiters of time and 'morality'. If I go skydiving and don't inspect my parachute, that 'waste' of life is on me. But if someone murders me, that life was stolen. How do I get a chance of restitution?
Even (or especially) if that pool of time is finite, the value 'owed' to me is still mine. I would be (grudgingly) accepting of giving up my remaining time due to an accident, but if someone takes a life, there should be an uproar from the community at the very least. It is deeply unfair to punish the victim again, on top of that.
Also, does that pool affect all living things, or just sentient ones?
Ultimately, this is a doomed world/cosmos, if life will cease to exist when the pool runs dry. Is there a way to restore it? What do the arbiters have to say about if someone was adding time to the pool? That would upset their balance, too.
I'm still not getting a lawful neutral vibe from the arbiters, they are looking very lawful evil to me.
You typically don't make the initial choice to be resurrected; others make it for you and your soul reacts. So a lawful neutral arbiter would (at least in my mind) not be focused on immediately punishing the resurrected, as its not neutral to me to punish someone for something they didn't initially choose or manipulate into happening.
So for me, I would view it as a "behind the scenes" negotiation between the soul and the "arbiters" where they make a deal for the extended life (the arbiters don't see resurrection so much as an evil or a crime, but as a neutral transaction for additional life). Then the "deal" could be any of the things you mentioned, and the arbiters aren't punishing you (or coming after you) unless you then "break" the deal in some way. That reads as more neutral to me.
Obviously extending your life beyond its natural span, or creating mockeries of life (like undead) would still be no-nos to the arbiters, and may figure into the deals struck with those being resurrected.
Sorry I guess I didn't mention but the intention is that the arbiters punish the resurrector, not the resurrected.
Then I would have the contract be between the arbiters and the resurrector, rather than the resurrectee. As a general rule, going for punishment first is going to read more evil than a contract, which is more neutral (where the punishment comes in only if the resurrector fails to complete the deal/hold up their end).
You could have all resurrection magic come with a "time stop" effect where the negotiation and contract is established.
Sorry I guess I didn't mention but the intention is that the arbiters punish the resurrector, not the resurrected.
I think that would be more elegantly addressed as enforcement rather than punishment.
When you cast a resurrection spell, you need to negotiate with the arbiters about the terms. As for in-game, I would probably change the material component for those spells to something that reflects the offering to the arbiters (while retaining the GP value). You may also want to add a skill check (maybe Charisma/Persuasion or using spell attack) with a DC pertaining to the number of previous resurrection spells cast on the target. Or if you want it to be more involved, add a skill challenge to casting the spell, or even a side quest linked to obtaining the material components.
If you have the 'victim' suffer any ill effects, those arbiters will always look evil, or at least malevolent. When you shift the burden on the caster (or the people asking the caster to perform the spell), then they can be 'just' enforcing the rules.
I still wonder about the pool running out and life ending...
So my setting has a few fundamental laws which help govern the universe. The Law of Mortality is basically the law that dictates that living beings get a certain allotment of time and must expire when that time is up. Things such as undead, creation of undead, and the unnatural extension of life are violations of this Law. There IS an allowance for resurrection magic in the law (Basically non-revivify rez spells involve a skill challenge); The law has a specific allowance for 5 Revivifys before it's considered a violation. A person can make reparations for the violation by destroying Undead, Necromancers, Those who have unnaturally extended their lifespans, or consecrating corrupted burial sites.
What I need help with is poking holes in this so I can tweak it and shore it up.
(Important note: The arbiters of this fundamental law are not interested in good or evil, just upkeeping this law)
Give us some concrete examples of how this would work and describe to me the idea of how the scales of justice should work in this instance.
For example, I can understand An Eye for an Eye. I can understand You Lose a Hand When You are Caught Stealing (I'm not saying I agree with it, just that I understand it).
But what is the measure for The Scales of Life in this arena?
A PC is born with 80 life points (?) and each year they expend a point. If they are killed before their 80th point is used, someone owes someone else the remaining points? Would the PC receive a point for "Restoring the Scales of Life" by killing 100 undead, or consecrating a battlefield where 100s died before their points were used up?
Then, turning this around, what happens to the characters for killing a being before their life points are used up? Do the PCs become cursed for which they must atone in a manner suitable to "The Scales of Life"?
Once I understand the manner in which The Scales of Life would work, then we can talk about the unnatural manner where the players revivify and resurrect PCs and NPCs.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Think each mortal is assigned an amount of time when they come into existence; This amount of time represents potential years of life. It is not permitted for them to extend past the cap but they can be cut short. I think maybe there is a finite pool of energy used to create/sustain life and those whose years are cut short, their extra years go back into the pool.
In regards to destroying Undead to make good on a violation it's basically they're assigned a sum based on the crime and each destroyed Undead lessens that amount (Likely based on CR but they won't know that) until they hit a total of 0 at which their debt is considered paid.
Murder is a perfectly acceptable thing to these arbiters as it only shortens a lifespan.
The point that MusicScout is bringing up is interesting, though. Those governing entities are not quite 'fair'. What happens to the unrealized potential that was allotted to someone? Can you steal it and use it for your own?
If you murder someone, you quite literally steal their time, even if you can't use it yourself. They eye-for-an-eye understanding would suggest, you steal someone's time, you need to pay up some of your own.
So what if you (accidentally) kill a young child that had 70 years to go, but you are only allotted another 10? Do you have to serve the community for 60 years as a zombie?
Why is resurrection magic bad, when you still have unrealized time left at the time of your demise? Wouldn't that balance the scales in that case? Or is this only meant for instances when you try to extend your time beyond what was given?
What about life extending magic?
The concept is quite intriguing, but it leaves me with many questions ;)
Edit: If the arbiters are indeed OK with shortening time, and punish you if you try to reclaim your own time by using resurrection magic, I would indeed classify them as evil.
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It sounds like all downside and there is no Justice involved, only greed on the part of the mediators. So I have to agree this just sounds like some background lore for one of the demon planes or the planes of hell. Who are the lore-wise keepers of life force? I know there is a group, like the Hags or someone. I guess this would put some more lore into that arena.
And on this basis, who would ever want the scales to be balanced if someone wanted to use a resurrect spell? It seems you're just stealing your life force back.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
To answer the questions about unused years.
Right now the punishment for violating the Law of Mortality with resurrection magic is an imposed state of "Half-life" until reparations are made.
My thoughts for why resurrection magic is a violation of the law is because when you die, your unspent years are supposed to return to this finite pool and are then redistributed among new life. So in a way resurrection magic is like a minor extension of one's life.
Regarding the question about life-extending magic; It's mentioned in the original post as a violation.
How is the life pool distributed? Do newborns get a certain amount? Is it averaged out to everyone under a certain age? The players probably can't exploit it, but it would be nice to have for lore purposes.
Well I can kill the dragon, but I don't want to. -my friends last words as he gets burnt to a crisp by an adult red dragon
Also, what about elves getting more time then humans?
Well I can kill the dragon, but I don't want to. -my friends last words as he gets burnt to a crisp by an adult red dragon
Do I understand your system of time given correctly, when I look at it as an allowance? Your parents give you an allowance of $50, and tell you not to squander it. If you go spend your money all on icecream, it's on you, you have wasted it all without creating value from it. But what if the bully takes it from you? Will your parents be upset? Will they talk to the bully or his parents to get it back to you? Are you responsible for another's actions?
I would have the same questions for the arbiters of time and 'morality'. If I go skydiving and don't inspect my parachute, that 'waste' of life is on me. But if someone murders me, that life was stolen. How do I get a chance of restitution?
Even (or especially) if that pool of time is finite, the value 'owed' to me is still mine. I would be (grudgingly) accepting of giving up my remaining time due to an accident, but if someone takes a life, there should be an uproar from the community at the very least. It is deeply unfair to punish the victim again, on top of that.
Also, does that pool affect all living things, or just sentient ones?
Ultimately, this is a doomed world/cosmos, if life will cease to exist when the pool runs dry. Is there a way to restore it? What do the arbiters have to say about if someone was adding time to the pool? That would upset their balance, too.
I'm still not getting a lawful neutral vibe from the arbiters, they are looking very lawful evil to me.
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You typically don't make the initial choice to be resurrected; others make it for you and your soul reacts. So a lawful neutral arbiter would (at least in my mind) not be focused on immediately punishing the resurrected, as its not neutral to me to punish someone for something they didn't initially choose or manipulate into happening.
So for me, I would view it as a "behind the scenes" negotiation between the soul and the "arbiters" where they make a deal for the extended life (the arbiters don't see resurrection so much as an evil or a crime, but as a neutral transaction for additional life). Then the "deal" could be any of the things you mentioned, and the arbiters aren't punishing you (or coming after you) unless you then "break" the deal in some way. That reads as more neutral to me.
Obviously extending your life beyond its natural span, or creating mockeries of life (like undead) would still be no-nos to the arbiters, and may figure into the deals struck with those being resurrected.
Sorry I guess I didn't mention but the intention is that the arbiters punish the resurrector, not the resurrected.
Then I would have the contract be between the arbiters and the resurrector, rather than the resurrectee. As a general rule, going for punishment first is going to read more evil than a contract, which is more neutral (where the punishment comes in only if the resurrector fails to complete the deal/hold up their end).
You could have all resurrection magic come with a "time stop" effect where the negotiation and contract is established.
I think that would be more elegantly addressed as enforcement rather than punishment.
When you cast a resurrection spell, you need to negotiate with the arbiters about the terms. As for in-game, I would probably change the material component for those spells to something that reflects the offering to the arbiters (while retaining the GP value). You may also want to add a skill check (maybe Charisma/Persuasion or using spell attack) with a DC pertaining to the number of previous resurrection spells cast on the target. Or if you want it to be more involved, add a skill challenge to casting the spell, or even a side quest linked to obtaining the material components.
If you have the 'victim' suffer any ill effects, those arbiters will always look evil, or at least malevolent. When you shift the burden on the caster (or the people asking the caster to perform the spell), then they can be 'just' enforcing the rules.
I still wonder about the pool running out and life ending...
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules