I am DMing for 3 friends and 2 acquaintances. The problem is 1 of the acquaintances is not really good at D&D. He is a Bard3 and Rogue1, in the last session the PCs are fighting an orc camp the encounter is a deadly encounter difficulty( this is what happens when you attack the main camp). The problem is the player almost refuses to cast spells even after 15 rounds of combat all the party's healing consumables are used and other players are begging him for healing. He also thinks he is the center of attention and not really a team player.
After the session 2 of the players come to me asking me to remove him from the table, this is not the first incident of this behavior. The player is also has a fragile ego to top it all off. I have been DMing for almost 15 years and this is the first time I have run in to this type of problem. Any advice would be most helpful.
The question is, should I talk to the player? Ask the player to leave? or tell the other 2 players to suck it up as the campaign ends in October and then we take are 2 month brake. We play once a week.
Thanks in advance.
UPDATE:
Some excellent points that did not cross my mind.
-The first one being "- the player really doesn't know how to play and doesn't understand what they could be doing." he has played 5e before he play a quiet warforged pala in the last campaign (I also DMed that one) but he is acting a little deferent in this campaign then in that last one. One of the things may be that we are not at a table but on Roll20, we also had to remind him what ability's the pala class had from time to time.
- Second thing is that he is trying to play a leader type character and that type of character goes against his IRL personality. So I am wounding if, the reason he keeps jumping in on other character conversations is because he thinks its the leader thing to do.
I also looked at his spell list and he does have Cure Wounds, so he did take a healing spell. I also looked at Roll20 chat history and he ended up casting three 1st lvl spells and one 2ed lvl spell. He cast the 2ed lvl one before combat started and two 1st lvl spells after combat had ended, after about 18 rounds. Further more about 8 healing potions where used during the combat encounter. He also still has 5 out of 5 Bardic inspirations.
I think the problem is he is playing a character out side his comfort zone and he is forgetting class traits, spells, and features.
Thanks again for the help.
UPDATE #2
I pulled the player aside and talked to him, and cleared up some misunderstanding the player had. For some reason he thought that once you cast a spell ie Cure Wounds you where unable to use it again till a long rest. I explained that as long as you have spell slots at or above the spells lvl but he has played a caster before and should understand this all ready, so this may just be an excuse. I also talked to him about interrupting other players conversations and always trying to be the center of attention.
Weird that a someone playing a support class wouldn't want to.. like.. you know.. support the team. Is this a case of a 'bad player', or a 'selfish character'?
Regardless of the different ways you could possibly handle this in game, the best thing to do is to probably just ask the player out of game why they aren't working as a team with the others. If they can't understand why that's making three people unhappy, then perhaps they're playing the wrong game and asking them to leave the party might be your best option.
Always, always talk to the player. Don't blame him, since he may not understand that what he's doing is hurtful to other people's fun, but tell him that you and the other players aren't enjoying the game very much right now, and you would have a lot more fun if he could play more around the team. If he's a mature adult/teenager, he should understand. Give him a chance to change. Of course, if he doesn't, the rest of the players' shouldn't have to suffer him, so you'll have to give him the boot.
But don't open the conversation by mentioning the complaints about him or by blaming him for anything. Start by asking him if he needs any help understanding his character, or understanding any of the rules of the game or how the character could be played. Maybe he really just doesn't know what to do, but is too afraid to ask. Then ask him if he's having fun in the game. If he's not - well, there's your opening to invite him to maybe find another game that he might enjoy more. But that trick probably won't work. So continue by asking him if he thinks everyone else at the table is having fun. Again - don't get accusatory just yet. Something like, "... because I'm starting to think that maybe not everyone is enjoying themselves..." might be a nice vague way of helping him to understand that other people have feelings too.
If he asks for help - help him. If he shrugs or gets defensive - just tell him (firmly but calmly) that this is a group game, and if he can't or won't work as part of the team, then the team might be better off without him.
Maybe ask him to just sit out one play session. If the rest of the group notices a significant improvement in quality of play during that session, then you know you'll have the entire team backing you up on this. Bottom line is - there is no easy way to resolve this. Someone will feel hurt. Will it be the one, or the entire group?
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Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
New players can have some very strange ideas about how things can/should work in D&D. New players may not have been introduced to the idea of the "RPG roles" -- the tank, the healer, the controller, and so on. New players may not understand about having to share "screen time" with other players.
I say this because I remember being that way as a new player. I was really lucky in that I learned with just one other person, my best friend, so I was able to take months to figure it out and there was nobody to get angry or frustrated but him, and as DM, what did he care? By the time other players came into it, we had already learned a lot of these things and so it wasn't a problem.
But if you put a brand new player in with experienced players, that person is going to do lots of things that are not "standard" D&D. Because he or she can't know what "standard" D&D is.
So, you should talk to this person politely and try to understand why he's acting the way he is. Maybe talk to him about "RPG etiquette" and such things. But don't be adversarial about it. And I agree, do not tell him "the other players are complaining."
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
What has he been using his spell slots for? Maybe his expectations for this campaign are more roleplay/exploration centered, which makes sense given his multiclass. If he is cool with a more combat-oriented campaign, maybe give him the option to remake his character in to something less reliant on support casting.
He also thinks he is the center of attention and not really a team player.
I would have a word with him about the situation, but put it in 'in-game' terms; if he's not doing his job in the party - why would the other members keep him around?
If it is just a case that the player is a bit of a lone wolf, then ask him why he is playing a game that is designed to be a cooperative endeavour rather than a solo adventure.
The other players are concerned because they aren't being a team player. They aren't using their spells to help the other players. They have the other characters rely on consumables for healing rather than contributing something.
However, we have no way of knowing what is causing the situation. It should have been pretty obvious in the game but since the DM can't tell what's going on then they need to have a friendly chat with the player.
Some possibilities
- the player really doesn't know how to play and doesn't understand what they could be doing. Did the player even take the healing word spell? A new player might look at healing word and its paltry d4+mod of healing and say it is useless. The entire concept of yoyo healing and getting a team mate back up and into the fight may not have occurred to them. Even when one of the other players suggests using the spell to heal a downed team mate the player may still not understand since they may have heard that healing is useless in 5e since you can't keep up with the damage.
The DM needs to have a private 1:1 with the player to figure out
- does the character act this way because the player doesn't understand?
- does the character act this way because the character is a loner and thinks there are better things for them to do?
- does the character act this way because the player doesn't want to be "THE HEALER"?
Some of this should have been visible when the other players tried to help the bard during play, encouraging them to cast spells including healing. What the bard player said in order to justify their actions may have offered some insight.In addition, what has the bard been doing during combat? If they are making a single weapon attack with sneak attack and forgoing spells then it could be that they just don't understand the class. On the other hand, a common reason to play rogue/bard is for the expertise and skills - perhaps the player sees the character as a master of skills and mostly a pacifist so they don't want to be involved in combat so they do the least possible. There are lots of possibilities and the only way to find and potentially fix or adapt the play is by talking to the player.
-The first one being "- the player really doesn't know how to play and doesn't understand what they could be doing." he has played 5e before he play a quiet warforged pala in the last campaign (I also DMed that one) but he is acting a little deferent in this campaign then in that last one. One of the things may be that we are not at a table but on Roll20, we also had to remind him what ability's the pala class had from time to time.
- Second thing is that he is trying to play a leader type character and that type of character goes against his IRL personality. So I am wounding if, the reason he keeps jumping in on other character conversations is because he thinks its the leader thing to do.
I also looked at his spell list and he does have Cure Wounds, so he did take a healing spell. I also looked at Roll20 chat history and he ended up casting three 1st lvl spells and one 2ed lvl spell. He cast the 2ed lvl one before combat started and two 1st lvl spells after combat had ended, after about 18 rounds. Further more about 8 healing potions where used during the combat encounter. He also still has 5 out of 5 Bardic inspirations.
I think the problem is he is playing a character out side his comfort zone and he is forgetting class traits, spells, and features.
Second thing is that he is trying to play a leader type character and that type of character goes against his IRL personality. So I am wounding if, the reason he keeps jumping in on other character conversations is because he thinks its the leader thing to do.
This is extremely hard to do and particularly so if it is not an experienced RPer.
I do it a lot... now. But in the old days, I tried to stick to characters close to my RL personality. And even now, after years of experience, I still do a better job playing introverted than extroverted characters, because in real life I am an introvert. I can do extroverts, and do them fairly well, but it is harder for me to do.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I think everyone else here has given great advice, and it's likely redundant of me to jump in, but a few thoughts.
It sounds like this player is struggling, but not intentionally trying to provoke anyone. I personally wouldn't kick a player for struggling socially, or with the game. But things aren't working, so I agree you don't want to just leave everything as is. It sounds like you have 2 players that are upset and don't know what to do. This is also valid. It can help if they have a way to get their needs met during the game.
1. With the NPC thing, you can teach the players to signal that they'd like to join a conversation with a raised hand or little wave or something, acknowledge that you see them, and make space for them when it's a good transition point.
2. You can address the group out of game, "We all love talking to the NPCs. What would be a fair system to give everyone interested a chance to talk? Also, with 5 players, we may not all get to talk to every NPC."
3. It could be that none of your players wants to be primary healer during combat, and that's okay. If that's the case, you might just set things up and explain that everyone is responsible for their own healing (unless someone goes unconscious). Or give the group a "healing rod" that anyone can use, and they take turns being primary healer. That way, no one is constantly stuck with the job no one wants.
4. Some players struggle with resource management. They worry that if they use spell slots and such now, they won't have them when they "really need them." And they really skimp on using them. (Rogue is a good fit for this type of player, cause most of their abilities don't run out. Side note: I can be like this too!) It might help if they knew what kind of spell/bardic inspiration budget per encounter is "safe."
Also, did this player start the deadly encounter, or was that someone else's decision?
You have to talk to people when this is a problem, preferably well before people are asking you to boot people.
It could be a combination of things.
Best case scenario: He is saving a clutch heal for when it is absolutely needed and the player wont just be knocked out before it can take a turn. Maybe he gets that And that he isn't a good player that knows his characters abilities so is forgetting stuff like bardic insp ( the 2nd part is already confirmed from past games).
The problem with even the best case is that the other players want someone that actually cares enough about the game to learn it and play it competently. This is the 2nd game he is doing this in so the chances of it happening are low, and even if he does it will be because he feels like he is being made to, not because he wants to.
Right now you have 1 person who doesn't seem to care about the game that much who is ruining it for the others that do care. If it was me I'd have a talk with the guy, get a feel for the situation and if he didn't seem like he cared I'd just tell him that the rest of the group wants a different kind of game than he wants to play, tell him it's noting personal and tell him that you think it's best if you continued without him.
I pulled the player aside and talked to him, and cleared up some misunderstanding the player had. For some reason he thought that once you cast a spell ie Cure Wounds you where unable to use it again till a long rest. I explained that as long as you have spell slots at or above the spells lvl but he has played a caster before and should understand this all ready, so this may just be an excuse. I also talked to him about interrupting other players conversations and always trying to be the center of attention.
For some reason he thought that once you cast a spell ie Cure Wounds you where unable to use it again till a long rest. I explained that as long as you have spell slots at or above the spells lvl but he has played a caster before and should understand this all ready, so this may just be an excuse.
In all previous versions of D&D, he would be correct.
It is only in 5E where you have spell slots instead of having to choose how many times to cast each spell at the start of the day.
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I am DMing for 3 friends and 2 acquaintances. The problem is 1 of the acquaintances is not really good at D&D. He is a Bard3 and Rogue1, in the last session the PCs are fighting an orc camp the encounter is a deadly encounter difficulty( this is what happens when you attack the main camp). The problem is the player almost refuses to cast spells even after 15 rounds of combat all the party's healing consumables are used and other players are begging him for healing. He also thinks he is the center of attention and not really a team player.
After the session 2 of the players come to me asking me to remove him from the table, this is not the first incident of this behavior. The player is also has a fragile ego to top it all off. I have been DMing for almost 15 years and this is the first time I have run in to this type of problem. Any advice would be most helpful.
The question is, should I talk to the player? Ask the player to leave? or tell the other 2 players to suck it up as the campaign ends in October and then we take are 2 month brake. We play once a week.
Thanks in advance.
UPDATE:
Some excellent points that did not cross my mind.
-The first one being "- the player really doesn't know how to play and doesn't understand what they could be doing." he has played 5e before he play a quiet warforged pala in the last campaign (I also DMed that one) but he is acting a little deferent in this campaign then in that last one. One of the things may be that we are not at a table but on Roll20, we also had to remind him what ability's the pala class had from time to time.
- Second thing is that he is trying to play a leader type character and that type of character goes against his IRL personality. So I am wounding if, the reason he keeps jumping in on other character conversations is because he thinks its the leader thing to do.
I also looked at his spell list and he does have Cure Wounds, so he did take a healing spell. I also looked at Roll20 chat history and he ended up casting three 1st lvl spells and one 2ed lvl spell. He cast the 2ed lvl one before combat started and two 1st lvl spells after combat had ended, after about 18 rounds. Further more about 8 healing potions where used during the combat encounter. He also still has 5 out of 5 Bardic inspirations.
I think the problem is he is playing a character out side his comfort zone and he is forgetting class traits, spells, and features.
Thanks again for the help.
UPDATE #2
I pulled the player aside and talked to him, and cleared up some misunderstanding the player had. For some reason he thought that once you cast a spell ie Cure Wounds you where unable to use it again till a long rest. I explained that as long as you have spell slots at or above the spells lvl but he has played a caster before and should understand this all ready, so this may just be an excuse.
I also talked to him about interrupting other players conversations and always trying to be the center of attention.
Weird that a someone playing a support class wouldn't want to.. like.. you know.. support the team. Is this a case of a 'bad player', or a 'selfish character'?
Regardless of the different ways you could possibly handle this in game, the best thing to do is to probably just ask the player out of game why they aren't working as a team with the others. If they can't understand why that's making three people unhappy, then perhaps they're playing the wrong game and asking them to leave the party might be your best option.
Always, always talk to the player. Don't blame him, since he may not understand that what he's doing is hurtful to other people's fun, but tell him that you and the other players aren't enjoying the game very much right now, and you would have a lot more fun if he could play more around the team. If he's a mature adult/teenager, he should understand. Give him a chance to change. Of course, if he doesn't, the rest of the players' shouldn't have to suffer him, so you'll have to give him the boot.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Definitely talk to the player.
But don't open the conversation by mentioning the complaints about him or by blaming him for anything. Start by asking him if he needs any help understanding his character, or understanding any of the rules of the game or how the character could be played. Maybe he really just doesn't know what to do, but is too afraid to ask. Then ask him if he's having fun in the game. If he's not - well, there's your opening to invite him to maybe find another game that he might enjoy more. But that trick probably won't work. So continue by asking him if he thinks everyone else at the table is having fun. Again - don't get accusatory just yet. Something like, "... because I'm starting to think that maybe not everyone is enjoying themselves..." might be a nice vague way of helping him to understand that other people have feelings too.
If he asks for help - help him. If he shrugs or gets defensive - just tell him (firmly but calmly) that this is a group game, and if he can't or won't work as part of the team, then the team might be better off without him.
Maybe ask him to just sit out one play session. If the rest of the group notices a significant improvement in quality of play during that session, then you know you'll have the entire team backing you up on this. Bottom line is - there is no easy way to resolve this. Someone will feel hurt. Will it be the one, or the entire group?
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
New players can have some very strange ideas about how things can/should work in D&D. New players may not have been introduced to the idea of the "RPG roles" -- the tank, the healer, the controller, and so on. New players may not understand about having to share "screen time" with other players.
I say this because I remember being that way as a new player. I was really lucky in that I learned with just one other person, my best friend, so I was able to take months to figure it out and there was nobody to get angry or frustrated but him, and as DM, what did he care? By the time other players came into it, we had already learned a lot of these things and so it wasn't a problem.
But if you put a brand new player in with experienced players, that person is going to do lots of things that are not "standard" D&D. Because he or she can't know what "standard" D&D is.
So, you should talk to this person politely and try to understand why he's acting the way he is. Maybe talk to him about "RPG etiquette" and such things. But don't be adversarial about it. And I agree, do not tell him "the other players are complaining."
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
What has he been using his spell slots for? Maybe his expectations for this campaign are more roleplay/exploration centered, which makes sense given his multiclass. If he is cool with a more combat-oriented campaign, maybe give him the option to remake his character in to something less reliant on support casting.
I would have a word with him about the situation, but put it in 'in-game' terms; if he's not doing his job in the party - why would the other members keep him around?
If it is just a case that the player is a bit of a lone wolf, then ask him why he is playing a game that is designed to be a cooperative endeavour rather than a solo adventure.
The first step is always to talk to the player.
The other players are concerned because they aren't being a team player. They aren't using their spells to help the other players. They have the other characters rely on consumables for healing rather than contributing something.
However, we have no way of knowing what is causing the situation. It should have been pretty obvious in the game but since the DM can't tell what's going on then they need to have a friendly chat with the player.
Some possibilities
- the player really doesn't know how to play and doesn't understand what they could be doing. Did the player even take the healing word spell? A new player might look at healing word and its paltry d4+mod of healing and say it is useless. The entire concept of yoyo healing and getting a team mate back up and into the fight may not have occurred to them. Even when one of the other players suggests using the spell to heal a downed team mate the player may still not understand since they may have heard that healing is useless in 5e since you can't keep up with the damage.
The DM needs to have a private 1:1 with the player to figure out
- does the character act this way because the player doesn't understand?
- does the character act this way because the character is a loner and thinks there are better things for them to do?
- does the character act this way because the player doesn't want to be "THE HEALER"?
Some of this should have been visible when the other players tried to help the bard during play, encouraging them to cast spells including healing. What the bard player said in order to justify their actions may have offered some insight.In addition, what has the bard been doing during combat? If they are making a single weapon attack with sneak attack and forgoing spells then it could be that they just don't understand the class. On the other hand, a common reason to play rogue/bard is for the expertise and skills - perhaps the player sees the character as a master of skills and mostly a pacifist so they don't want to be involved in combat so they do the least possible. There are lots of possibilities and the only way to find and potentially fix or adapt the play is by talking to the player.
Some excellent points that did not cross my mind.
-The first one being "- the player really doesn't know how to play and doesn't understand what they could be doing." he has played 5e before he play a quiet warforged pala in the last campaign (I also DMed that one) but he is acting a little deferent in this campaign then in that last one. One of the things may be that we are not at a table but on Roll20, we also had to remind him what ability's the pala class had from time to time.
- Second thing is that he is trying to play a leader type character and that type of character goes against his IRL personality. So I am wounding if, the reason he keeps jumping in on other character conversations is because he thinks its the leader thing to do.
I also looked at his spell list and he does have Cure Wounds, so he did take a healing spell. I also looked at Roll20 chat history and he ended up casting three 1st lvl spells and one 2ed lvl spell. He cast the 2ed lvl one before combat started and two 1st lvl spells after combat had ended, after about 18 rounds. Further more about 8 healing potions where used during the combat encounter. He also still has 5 out of 5 Bardic inspirations.
I think the problem is he is playing a character out side his comfort zone and he is forgetting class traits, spells, and features.
Thanks again for the help.
This is extremely hard to do and particularly so if it is not an experienced RPer.
I do it a lot... now. But in the old days, I tried to stick to characters close to my RL personality. And even now, after years of experience, I still do a better job playing introverted than extroverted characters, because in real life I am an introvert. I can do extroverts, and do them fairly well, but it is harder for me to do.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I think everyone else here has given great advice, and it's likely redundant of me to jump in, but a few thoughts.
It sounds like this player is struggling, but not intentionally trying to provoke anyone. I personally wouldn't kick a player for struggling socially, or with the game. But things aren't working, so I agree you don't want to just leave everything as is. It sounds like you have 2 players that are upset and don't know what to do. This is also valid. It can help if they have a way to get their needs met during the game.
1. With the NPC thing, you can teach the players to signal that they'd like to join a conversation with a raised hand or little wave or something, acknowledge that you see them, and make space for them when it's a good transition point.
2. You can address the group out of game, "We all love talking to the NPCs. What would be a fair system to give everyone interested a chance to talk? Also, with 5 players, we may not all get to talk to every NPC."
3. It could be that none of your players wants to be primary healer during combat, and that's okay. If that's the case, you might just set things up and explain that everyone is responsible for their own healing (unless someone goes unconscious). Or give the group a "healing rod" that anyone can use, and they take turns being primary healer. That way, no one is constantly stuck with the job no one wants.
4. Some players struggle with resource management. They worry that if they use spell slots and such now, they won't have them when they "really need them." And they really skimp on using them. (Rogue is a good fit for this type of player, cause most of their abilities don't run out. Side note: I can be like this too!) It might help if they knew what kind of spell/bardic inspiration budget per encounter is "safe."
Also, did this player start the deadly encounter, or was that someone else's decision?
You have to talk to people when this is a problem, preferably well before people are asking you to boot people.
It could be a combination of things.
Best case scenario:
He is saving a clutch heal for when it is absolutely needed and the player wont just be knocked out before it can take a turn. Maybe he gets that And that he isn't a good player that knows his characters abilities so is forgetting stuff like bardic insp ( the 2nd part is already confirmed from past games).
The problem with even the best case is that the other players want someone that actually cares enough about the game to learn it and play it competently. This is the 2nd game he is doing this in so the chances of it happening are low, and even if he does it will be because he feels like he is being made to, not because he wants to.
Right now you have 1 person who doesn't seem to care about the game that much who is ruining it for the others that do care. If it was me I'd have a talk with the guy, get a feel for the situation and if he didn't seem like he cared I'd just tell him that the rest of the group wants a different kind of game than he wants to play, tell him it's noting personal and tell him that you think it's best if you continued without him.
UPDATE #2
I pulled the player aside and talked to him, and cleared up some misunderstanding the player had. For some reason he thought that once you cast a spell ie Cure Wounds you where unable to use it again till a long rest. I explained that as long as you have spell slots at or above the spells lvl but he has played a caster before and should understand this all ready, so this may just be an excuse.
I also talked to him about interrupting other players conversations and always trying to be the center of attention.
In all previous versions of D&D, he would be correct.
It is only in 5E where you have spell slots instead of having to choose how many times to cast each spell at the start of the day.