Question says it all. Do you have them bring out their biggest guns early (especially for BBEG's)? Or do you try to create a build up to those actions? My players are pretty min/maxed and work well together (and yep I try to keep their rests down a minimum per day), so even a BBEG only gets four or five rounds or so before the combat is over.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated, thanks!
Combat in 5e is not designed to be a long drawn out affair, so waiting too long and you may never get to use them. I would recommend leading with a big one (especially if the ability has a recharge), and never waiting past the third round to launch something big.
exceptions would be something like power word kill which would be wasted if used too early
The more intelligent and wise the creature you are playing the more tactically inclined they'll be. So like if you're fighting an ancient red dragon or a Lich those creatures are going to be aware of not only their own abilities and tactics but be able to 'read' your players. So the Red Dragon is going to open with trying to get airborne and using its breath weapon. The Lich is going to recognize threats (Clerics, Paladins, and other casters) and attempt to neutralize them immediately. Creatures like these are real threats and you should play them as such.
In short BBEGs are not going to give any chances, nocking someone down in round one is still a great way to establish tension, a sense of urgency, and a credible threat. So don't hold back. Your BBEGs and generally other creatures are in-it-to-win-it (There are caveats to this).
The general exception to bringing out big guns early is when it's not obvious that the PCs are a legitimate threat. That is unlikely to take more than one round.
Even in that case, most monsters have powers that recharge on a die roll, there really isn't a reason not to bring those out unless there's a specific reason, like a dragon not using its breath weapon unless it can catch three people in the AoE.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Even in that case, most monsters have powers that recharge on a die roll, there really isn't a reason not to bring those out unless there's a specific reason, like a dragon not using its breath weapon unless it can catch three people in the AoE.
True, but powers with encounter or daily recharge are things to be more cautious about.
You can check out https://www.themonstersknow.com/ - it's got a bunch of analysis on what different kinds of monsters would "realistically" do in combat with their abilities.
I've found https://www.themonstersknow.com/ to be an excellent source of info on how a monster would probably act in combat. Breaks down monster's abilities and features really well and then presents logical strategies on how they would utilize them in combat.
1. As did Nuke Laloosh, you want to announce your presence with authority, which means going big right from the getgo.
2. Unless the BBEG has minions, you HAVE to give your BBEG's powerful options for Legendary Actions (I have learned that the hard way over time). So have LA's available to be used immediately for any BBEG. Once again, bring out the big guns immediately.
Many thanks for the additional responses, they're all extremely helpful. The Monsters Know. . . has been a fantastic resource, thanks, and the verification that going full-bore at the outset is almost always the way to open is great. I'd been getting so frustrated because I wasn't getting to the really fun stuff with the BBEG's because I wanted to create a build within the combat. I was also worried that the PC's would be angry that I'd nova'd right out of the gates but in terms of monster psychology, you're right. Unless they've underestimated the PC's and want to toy with them a bit, why wouldn't they?
If you want to generate a combat method that produces build-up, you'll have to introduce a lot of house rules, probably including similar limitations on the PCs.
If you want to make the fight challenging and have the monster be smart, use the biggest guns ASAP, on as many targets as possible and always on the wizard. If you’re suddenly worrying about a TPK and want to avoid it, that’s the only reason to wait and/or hit the fighter. It’s also sometimes thematically appropriate to wait until the PCs prove themselves a threat: a Lich won’t want to waste its spells on some low level scrubs after all.
Creatures in 5e are inherently limited by the action economy. This is especially true for higher level spellcasters. Considering how effective a party with their collection of actions can be against a target, it is usually essential to use strong abilities as early as possible in a combat. Legendary and lair actions can help balance things out but a creature who refrains from using their stronger abilities often runs into a situation where they never get to use them.
On the other hand, I try to play the NPCs logically and in character for what their goals and objectives are. This means that they might retain some high level spell slots if they think there may be a need for them. I also take a look at the intelligence and wisdom stats of the creature to help guide the roleplaying. A highly intelligent spell caster isn't likely to make the same decisions as a lower intelligence creature might. Anyway, for the OP, if an NPC or creature has no reason to decide that their ability is better saved for later then they are likely to choose to use it as soon as possible and as often as possible.
If you want to make the fight challenging and have the monster be smart, use the biggest guns ASAP, on as many targets as possible and always on the wizard. If you’re suddenly worrying about a TPK and want to avoid it, that’s the only reason to wait and/or hit the fighter. It’s also sometimes thematically appropriate to wait until the PCs prove themselves a threat: a Lich won’t want to waste its spells on some low level scrubs after all.
Conversely, a lich might decide that it doesn't feel like screwing around with adventurers that got past its minions and traps. If you can actually find the lich in the first place, the lich has good reason to assume you represent a legitimate threat.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If you want to make the fight challenging and have the monster be smart, use the biggest guns ASAP, on as many targets as possible and always on the wizard. If you’re suddenly worrying about a TPK and want to avoid it, that’s the only reason to wait and/or hit the fighter. It’s also sometimes thematically appropriate to wait until the PCs prove themselves a threat: a Lich won’t want to waste its spells on some low level scrubs after all.
Conversely, a lich might decide that it doesn't feel like screwing around with adventurers that got past its minions and traps. If you can actually find the lich in the first place, the lich has good reason to assume you represent a legitimate threat.
Of course, this might depend on the circumstances. If a Lich has gone out for some purposes of its own, and is wreaking havoc, it might not immediately realize that the foolish adventurers engaging it are a real threat (or it might have already used some of its big guns to blow up some other target). Conversely, if that lich gets destroyed and reforms next to its phylactery at the bottom of a secret dungeon, and the PCs track it down there, its going to open up with big nasty spells.
If you want a good way to have a fight with some progression, put up a Prismatic Wall or something similar that will take the PCs a while to get through.
Thanks for all of the additional input, everybody! This conversation has been incredibly helpful already (tonight's session) and created a much more suspenseful night which I think everyone really enjoyed. Much appreciated!
Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
Question says it all. Do you have them bring out their biggest guns early (especially for BBEG's)? Or do you try to create a build up to those actions? My players are pretty min/maxed and work well together (and yep I try to keep their rests down a minimum per day), so even a BBEG only gets four or five rounds or so before the combat is over.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated, thanks!
Combat in 5e is not designed to be a long drawn out affair, so waiting too long and you may never get to use them. I would recommend leading with a big one (especially if the ability has a recharge), and never waiting past the third round to launch something big.
exceptions would be something like power word kill which would be wasted if used too early
The more intelligent and wise the creature you are playing the more tactically inclined they'll be. So like if you're fighting an ancient red dragon or a Lich those creatures are going to be aware of not only their own abilities and tactics but be able to 'read' your players. So the Red Dragon is going to open with trying to get airborne and using its breath weapon. The Lich is going to recognize threats (Clerics, Paladins, and other casters) and attempt to neutralize them immediately. Creatures like these are real threats and you should play them as such.
In short BBEGs are not going to give any chances, nocking someone down in round one is still a great way to establish tension, a sense of urgency, and a credible threat. So don't hold back. Your BBEGs and generally other creatures are in-it-to-win-it (There are caveats to this).
Many thanks, iconarising and Scyren, for the input! Truly appreciate it and exactly what I was looking for.
The general exception to bringing out big guns early is when it's not obvious that the PCs are a legitimate threat. That is unlikely to take more than one round.
Even in that case, most monsters have powers that recharge on a die roll, there really isn't a reason not to bring those out unless there's a specific reason, like a dragon not using its breath weapon unless it can catch three people in the AoE.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
True, but powers with encounter or daily recharge are things to be more cautious about.
If it's a once/per encounter power there's almost never a reason not to open up with it.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Against PCs, the answer to all three of these questions is usually no, but some monsters might be low information.
You can check out https://www.themonstersknow.com/ - it's got a bunch of analysis on what different kinds of monsters would "realistically" do in combat with their abilities.
I've found https://www.themonstersknow.com/ to be an excellent source of info on how a monster would probably act in combat. Breaks down monster's abilities and features really well and then presents logical strategies on how they would utilize them in combat.
Really great for me as a relatively new DM.
Two things:
1. As did Nuke Laloosh, you want to announce your presence with authority, which means going big right from the getgo.
2. Unless the BBEG has minions, you HAVE to give your BBEG's powerful options for Legendary Actions (I have learned that the hard way over time). So have LA's available to be used immediately for any BBEG. Once again, bring out the big guns immediately.
Many thanks for the additional responses, they're all extremely helpful. The Monsters Know. . . has been a fantastic resource, thanks, and the verification that going full-bore at the outset is almost always the way to open is great. I'd been getting so frustrated because I wasn't getting to the really fun stuff with the BBEG's because I wanted to create a build within the combat. I was also worried that the PC's would be angry that I'd nova'd right out of the gates but in terms of monster psychology, you're right. Unless they've underestimated the PC's and want to toy with them a bit, why wouldn't they?
Many thanks again for all of the input!
If you want to generate a combat method that produces build-up, you'll have to introduce a lot of house rules, probably including similar limitations on the PCs.
If you want to make the fight challenging and have the monster be smart, use the biggest guns ASAP, on as many targets as possible and always on the wizard. If you’re suddenly worrying about a TPK and want to avoid it, that’s the only reason to wait and/or hit the fighter. It’s also sometimes thematically appropriate to wait until the PCs prove themselves a threat: a Lich won’t want to waste its spells on some low level scrubs after all.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Creatures in 5e are inherently limited by the action economy. This is especially true for higher level spellcasters. Considering how effective a party with their collection of actions can be against a target, it is usually essential to use strong abilities as early as possible in a combat. Legendary and lair actions can help balance things out but a creature who refrains from using their stronger abilities often runs into a situation where they never get to use them.
On the other hand, I try to play the NPCs logically and in character for what their goals and objectives are. This means that they might retain some high level spell slots if they think there may be a need for them. I also take a look at the intelligence and wisdom stats of the creature to help guide the roleplaying. A highly intelligent spell caster isn't likely to make the same decisions as a lower intelligence creature might. Anyway, for the OP, if an NPC or creature has no reason to decide that their ability is better saved for later then they are likely to choose to use it as soon as possible and as often as possible.
Conversely, a lich might decide that it doesn't feel like screwing around with adventurers that got past its minions and traps. If you can actually find the lich in the first place, the lich has good reason to assume you represent a legitimate threat.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Of course, this might depend on the circumstances. If a Lich has gone out for some purposes of its own, and is wreaking havoc, it might not immediately realize that the foolish adventurers engaging it are a real threat (or it might have already used some of its big guns to blow up some other target). Conversely, if that lich gets destroyed and reforms next to its phylactery at the bottom of a secret dungeon, and the PCs track it down there, its going to open up with big nasty spells.
If you want a good way to have a fight with some progression, put up a Prismatic Wall or something similar that will take the PCs a while to get through.
Thanks for all of the additional input, everybody! This conversation has been incredibly helpful already (tonight's session) and created a much more suspenseful night which I think everyone really enjoyed. Much appreciated!
Use everything you got. Monsters don’t need to save combat abilities for later outside of story or thematic reasons.
You can also Check out a bunch of monster tactics videos on this page if you like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JQ_oRJIes
Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPPmyTI0tZ6nM-bzY0IG3ww