Okay, so I have a PC and their familiar peeking around a corner. They rolled very low stealth. I asked for stealth because goblins around the corner and down the corridor are aimed and ready for the first thing they see - which based on the stealth rolls and the gobs' passive perception, it means they see them and to my mind, this means they let loose their shots.
I would give PCs and familiar 3/4 cover and was even thinking of disadvantage for goblins on their shots, since it's just their heads coming around to look - and maybe a bit of body.
The rest of the PCs are not peeking and are kind of behind the peeking PC and their familiar.
My questions are:
- do I let the goblins just shoot? If I give them disadvantage (not saying that's set in stone) it's unlikely they'll hit. - do I need to roll initiative here first? Or should the goblins let loose? (rules seem to intend initiative is rolled before any shots are fired, to allow for them to see the shots and get out of the way). - I wouldn't necessarily say the PCs are surprised - it was just after a battle and the PC and familiar are being cautious
My gut says the goblins loose their shots, and the PC will likely turn back and say what happened. But I just don't know how that jives with RAW. Help! What would you do?
I don't think that the PC would necessarily be surprised, since they were overtly expecting more combat at that time, hence the sneaking in the first place. The goblins themselves weren't stealthily hidden... they just happened to be standing guard around a corner. However, you did mention that the goblins have their bows readied, which reads to me as the Ready Action. So in this case the goblins would be using their reaction the moment they see a non-goblin figure. I don't see anything in your description that would give the goblins disadvantage, but 3/4 cover makes sense. I also think you should go ahead and roll initiative at that moment as well... goblins use their reaction to fire, then the round starts as normal from there, including all the other PCs as well, since they'll be reacting to this in the moment.
If you want to be nicer to your player and not get them immediately shot in the face by what I'm assuming to be at least a half dozen arrows all at once, you could forego the idea of a readied action and just have whichever goblins beat them in initiative fire before they pull back and do whatever it is they're planning to do in this situation. But I suppose my main bit of advice is yes, you should go ahead and roll initiative right off the bat, and then run the rest of the encounter based on your best judgment.
Surprise is an interesting mechanic because in some situations it's kind of up to the DM what necessarily triggers it. I think that "doesn't notice a threat" doesn't necessarily apply to a situation when a character is attempting to scout out a room they believe to be filled with enemies who are not actively trying to hide. The RAW for Surprise actually includes the phrase "If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. " The moment they peek around the corner they Notice the Threat, unless they have terrible wisdom and like... negative passive perception. However, this is one of those fringe examples that really depends on the DM... because although I wouldn't give the goblins a surprise round in my game, I think it makes enough sense that I wouldn't argue with my DM if they said it happened.
I think the most important thing I got wrong was forgetting that the Ready action is a combat action and, per RAW, can't be done outside of combat.
RAW, I'd say that, if the goblins aren't attempting to hide and are simply standing guard, they spot the player, initiative is rolled, and any goblins who beat the PC in initiative get an attack against them, while the PC has 3/4 cover. However, if the goblins were deliberately hiding to set up an ambush, the DM should do a stealth roll for them, see if it beats the PC's passive perception, and give the goblins the benefit of surprising if they succeed on their stealth check.
It's rare to use passive stats other than perception, since so few game mechanics actively call for them. But I think using a goblin's passive stealth in this situation makes perfect sense. Goblins are so naturally stealthy that they get Roguelike stealth abilities as a racial trait. I think using their passive stealth versus the PC's passive perception is a creative and fun way to determine whether or not goblins in a situation like this get the full benefits of surprise.
A couple other points: there are two goblins where the PC and familiar are looking, and the PCs were just fighting a corridor over, so they were heard. Similarly, one of the gobs had come up to check on the situation and actually was seen by a PC - the gob immediately ran back. At least one PC heard the goblins arguing loudly. The goblins are behind a 3-foot wall with readied actions for whatever comes around the corner.
I also think you should go ahead and roll initiative at that moment as well... goblins use their reaction to fire, then the round starts as normal from there, including all the other PCs as well, since they'll be reacting to this in the moment.
I think I like this one the best so far.
A couple other points: there are two goblins where the PC and familiar are looking, and the PCs were just fighting a corridor over, so they were heard. Similarly, one of the gobs had come up to check on the situation and actually was seen by a PC - the gob immediately ran back. At least one PC heard the goblins arguing loudly. The goblins are behind a 3-foot wall with readied actions for whatever comes around the corner. there is no way there could be an ambush - surprise is out of the question. they know each other are there but the PC and familiar are just trying to see in the room.
i guess my reasoning for disadvantage was a bit of feel bad in case the PCs face got knocked off (he's a wizard, so maybe it's the case he shouldn't be looking around dangerous corners anyway :)
the other was maybe the difficulty of the shot itself. like, i know this kind of depth isn't covered in the rules, but the shot would have to be timed perfectly.
i'm still thinking the arrows get loosed, but then initiative is rolled.
After that, note that as a house rule, I allow PCs and NPCs/Monsters to ready actions out of combat, because it makes the flow much better and allows for nice tactical actions. But this is not RAW, just something that we do at our tables, otherwise it's hard to reconcile the precise mechanic of 5e combat and the fact that the goblins are literally waiting to shoot whatever comes out of the corner. So I allow readying actions out of combat, but if these are combat actions (like shooting an arrow), I have to start combat and then resolve the action according to initiative.
I agree with you on a lot, but I don’t understand your logic here. Eventually every single party member ends up readying every action possible to get the jump. Why not just use surprise more readily instead of a wonky “out of combat ready action”?
My thoughts always go back to NPCs. Technically the 100 goblins on the battlements are always readying actions to shoot the first person in range then, which means whomever steps into view first automatically takes 100 arrows before initiative is even rolled. It just sounds silly.
What does allowing ready actions solve that Surprise doesn’t?
I would call for an initiative roll and then, based on the description in the OP, the gobbos would get a surprise round, meaning they act on their initiative and the PCs don't. Then next round, everyone goes on initiative order.
I would give 3/4 cover to the peeking player but NOT disadvantage because "only their head and shoulders are showing." That's what 3/4 cover basically means.
So, initiative, surprise round, gobbos fire. The Ready action is irrelevant here because of the surprise round.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I genuinely think following RAW in this situation would solve any confusion and keep consistent balance. Adding in house rules to ready actions out of combat gives artificial advantages (usually in the form of surprise).
I'd rule it as:
Player wants to peak around corner. If goblins are actively looking for the players (sounds like they are), then there's no stealth check to avoid being seen - if your player can see the goblins, the goblins can see them.
Roll initiative, neither player nor goblins are surprised.
Resolve combat as normal - player gets 3/4 cover while peeking around the corner.
If the player was higher in the initiative order and decides to move back behind the corner, on the goblins turn, they can ready an action to shoot you when they see you.
If there is a reason the player might not be seen before rolling initiative, such as the goblins are distracted, there's low light, or other narrative reasons that would allow the player to peek around the corner without being seen, then have the player roll a stealth check.
Player fails? Roll initiative - neither player nor goblins are surprised as the player sees the goblins, and the goblins see the player. Resolve combat as normal.
Succeed? Player can decide if they want to attack as they see the goblin, but the goblins don't see them. Yes, attack? Roll initiative - Goblins are surprised. No, don't attack? Play continues.
I genuinely think following RAW in this situation would solve any confusion and keep consistent balance. Adding in house rules to ready actions out of combat gives artificial advantages (usually in the form of surprise).
I'd rule it as:
Player wants to peak around corner. If goblins are actively looking for the players (sounds like they are), then there's no stealth check to avoid being seen - if your player can see the goblins, the goblins can see them.
Roll initiative, neither player nor goblins are surprised.
Resolve combat as normal - player gets 3/4 cover while peeking around the corner.
If the player was higher in the initiative order and decides to move back behind the corner, on the goblins turn, they can ready an action to shoot you when they see you.
If there is a reason the player might not be seen before rolling initiative, such as the goblins are distracted, there's low light, or other narrative reasons that would allow the player to peek around the corner without being seen, then have the player roll a stealth check.
Player fails? Roll initiative - neither player nor goblins are surprised as the player sees the goblins, and the goblins see the player. Resolve combat as normal.
Succeed? Player can decide if they want to attack as they see the goblin, but the goblins don't see them. Yes, attack? Roll initiative - Goblins are surprised. No, don't attack? Play continues.
I agree right up to the point where you let the players attack with surprise. A goblin, behind a wall, with their bows trained on the corner that the players will come around ready to fire, expecting the players to come around the corner, is not surprised when they do so.
I don't think either party should be surprised - the goblins know the PC's are there, the players know the goblins are there. Whilst having a readied action outside of combat isn't RAW, it's the way I'd play it. Alternatively, if you want to keep it RAW, then roll initiative as the PC sticks their head around the corner, not after, and as soon as that combat begins, treat the goblins as having readied actions. then the head pokes out.
The only way that the PC could be surprised is if they failed to notice the goblins. A perception check might have been more relevant - they stick their head out, they see no goblins, they step out, surprise - there are goblins!
So unless initiative is rolled the goblins are not readied to fire on the corner. A player cannot ready an action to fire on the goblin. They either attack and initiative is rolled or they do not and they continue sneaking around the goblin or vice versa. No combat actions can occur outside of combat...keeping it this way makes things a LOT more clear.
Once combat is started the rules for stealth are clear: You have to have full obstruction (i.e. break LOS) and roll a Stealth Check vs the creatures Passive Perception. If you roll higher you are hidden and would have advantage on the next attack against that creature.
If you pop your head out to look you have broken obstruction and therefore are not hidden. If the goblin use the Search action and roll higher than your stealth check they find you.
If a goblin (knowing you are behind the pillar) moves to a location where they can get LOS behind said pillar and see you are not hidden.
Otherwise per RAW the player is hidden if they: 1. Break LOS 2. Hide 3. Roll Stealth> Passive Perception
Does this mean that a player is hidden if the goblin points an arrow where they think the player will pop out? Ask these questions: 1. Did the player break LOS from the goblin? Yes 2. Did the player Hide and roll a stealth higher than the passive perception of the goblin? Yes
They player is hidden from the goblin and would have ADV on the shot if they popped out to shoot.
HOWEVER....the goblin's condition is still met. There is a person where they are looking to fire. They get to fire on the player as well.
This then gets into the Xanathar rules:
Simultaneous Effects
Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.
The player would get to decide which attack goes first.
The real rub is this: If the player says the goblin attack goes first are they still "hidden" and the attack is at disadvantage? I would argue no since the effects are simultaneous the goblin is seeing the player but the player still got the drop on the goblin from the Hide action.
Player would roll the attack with ADV. Goblin would roll normally.
Flavor it as the player came out in a low stance that the goblin was not expecting.
I did minterpret the orignal scenario but the rules for stealth/hiding are correct.
1. Break LOS: you can do this via anyway you are obscured. Invisibility, darkness, behind total cover. It does not matter as long as the person you are attempting to hide from cannot see you.
2. Hide action. You must do this bit. You have to have a hide action in order to become unseen/unheard to fully qualify as hidden from the creature. This relies on your Stealth roll vs. their passive perception.
3. If you can do the above you are hidden and would benefit from being so if you choose to attack from this state.
If any of the above conditions change ( you are spotted, darkness removed via torche/magic, you are visible now) then you are no longer hidden.
Because I misinterpreted the original scenario I introduced a second concept but it still holds true: If you Ready and action and the trigger occurs you get that action.
However, if the situation dictated that they had used the Hide action and successfully rolled Stealth vs Passive Perception they would be hidden. However say the goblin saw the creature go behind the pillar but cannot tell where they are at now. They could Ready an action to fire on the first thing to appear from behind the pillar. They do not move or perform another action.
The player then decides on their turn to fire from the hidden position. They are hidden from the goblin so they get ADV but once they come out to fire they would proc the readied action from the goblin.
Both actions/effects happen at the same time. According to Xanathars since this falls on the PLAYERS turn they get to decide what effects/actions occur in what order if they happen at the same time.
Regardless of the scenario you use this information to answer the original question as every aspect has to fall in a certain order or else it is does not qualify for being hidden.
Looking back at the original question: You need to determine what cover the goblins have
If they have full cover and are popping out to shoot on their turns and moving back behind full cover they would not be able to be targeted at ALL by the players unless they get better LOS and bypass the full cover.
If they are behind 3/4 cover you would use the rules for that cover.
The same goes for the players: what cover are they behind? Full cover the goblins cannot even shoot at them. If they are only popping out during their turn to shoot and going back then they cannot be hit if they are behind full cover.
If the goblin or player chooses to ready an action to shoot they would have to maintain a LOS on the area they intend to shoot at so they would need to pop out and hold that position. In this case they are leaving full cover to afford them chance at a readied attack action.
This means the player can then pop out and target them...but incur the readied attack action as well. Both shoot and since they are at the same time the player would decide who goes first.
You are not hidden unless you take the action to do so.
Goblins just standing around a corner are not hidden....they are out of LOS and cannot be seen. If they are not actively attempting to hide their position is known.
This is the same for invisible creatures. You know their position unless they use the Hide action. This is because you can use other factors (smells, sound, etc...) to determine the location of an invisible creature. You can hide at any time while invisible as you have qualified: You have broken LOS with the person you are attempting to hide from.
However, being invisible infers the bonus of being invisible which means you have ADV on attacks against creatures that cannot see you and they have DIS to hit you. But they know where you are.
Since the original poster asked for the RAW ruling I would suggest we stay with that and not impose our own view points that do not have any bearing on the RAW.
Lots of different views of how to run this (a side effect of the lack of clarity in the surprise rules among other things).
Anyway, here is how I tend to run things.
The party just had an encounter in the previous corridor according to the OP and are sneaking along the corridor looking for more. The expectation seems to be that more enemies could be encountered.
1) I would either continue initiative from the previous battle or have everyone roll initiative as soon as the character plans to look around the corner. NOTE: I will have the characters do this from time to time even if there isn't an immediate threat simply to prevent the metagame of "rolling initiative = imminent combat". At times, I will have the characters pre-roll initiative so I can use those when combat starts even if the characters/players aren't aware of it - I can ask the players what they are doing in initiative order without telling them that we are using initiative until it becomes obvious.
2) In my opinion, and in my game, this scenario would not be subject to surprise at all. The surprise rules state "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." It doesn't specify whether this is a specific threat or a general threat - in my opinion any threat will do.
The goblins aren't hiding. They haven't specifically set themselves up as difficult to see or otherwise make themselves difficult to notice. They are down the corridor around the corner with weapons at the ready. In addition, they are aware of an approaching creature due to the failed stealth roll. The character is aware of general threats but not a specific one yet and so is both wary and on guard. They won't be caught by surprise.If the goblins were specifically hiding in an ambush the result might be different but in the scenario described by the OP they are not. The character is fully aware of the threat posed by goblins somewhere down this corridor.
RAW reads ... "Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side." - In this case, the PC tried to hide and failed while the goblins didn't even try to hide. Surprise is clearly NOT an option here RAW.
3) Resolving in initiative order
- if the PC has initiative they manage to peek around the corner quickly, see the goblins and duck back before the goblins can shift their aim to the correct height to effectively fire at the PC.
- if the goblins have initiative they use a held action to ready their ranged weapon to fire. When the PC quickly looks around the corner they are not fast enough to avoid the return fire from the goblins which is resolved with a +5 to AC due to 3/4 cover.
After that, continue to resolve actions by the party and the goblins in initiative order.
Your goblins have readied actions, cool, yep. Time exists outside of combat, they know about the party - all good IMO. I'd be happy to loose the arrows before rolling initiative with immersion in mind, if you roll initiative first it will cause your players to think COMBAT and probably run headfirst into the volley. To be fair to the player, I'd probably only get one or two goblins to fire and they would get 3/4 cover from the arrows (no disadvantage, that's what the 3/4 cover is for here).
Then roll initiative - nobody is surprised. Begin combat as normal.
Your goblins have readied actions, cool, yep. Time exists outside of combat, they know about the party - all good IMO. I'd be happy to loose the arrows before rolling initiative with immersion in mind, if you roll initiative first it will cause your players to think COMBAT and probably run headfirst into the volley. To be fair to the player, I'd probably only get one or two goblins to fire and they would get 3/4 cover from the arrows (no disadvantage, that's what the 3/4 cover is for here).
Then roll initiative - nobody is surprised. Begin combat as normal.
You would instead determine if anyone was surprised. If the stealth roll was low no one was surprised and initiative rolls as normal and the order decides who shoots first.
Being out of LOS makes you heavily obscured....you cannot be targeted by spells/attacks/abilities that state you have to see the target. This does not immediately make you hidden. You have to use the hide action to be hidden.
Outside of combat you are correct it is a stealth check vs passive perception....just like in combat. However if you are detected it is up to the DM how things go. If they believe the goblins would attack outsiders on sight then initiative is rolled.
Yes you do know the position of all creatures...its weird but its how it rules go as per the guy who wrote them. I am sorry you do not like it but as I stated before RAW has been clarified. You know where an invisible creature is and thats just how it goes....you still get DIS to attack them and they get ADV to attack you. He said there could be circumstances that the DM incurs (such as distance) that would allow you forgo the hide check. However, its a bit nebulous on what that includes? Overall in the scenario that OP related no one is hidden.
The podcast clearly states that you know the position of an invisible creature unless they hide....that is just simply stated. I am not sure how else to state that as its literally a topic of conversation for like 15 mins in there. They say a DM could say that something as part of the environment makes it so they do not have to roll to hide (loud noises covering footsteps, distance, etc...) but otherwise you know where the creature is automatically you can just not see it.
It is RAW as they state the rules from the PHB and its fairly clear once you actually read them.
You are not hidden in combat until you do the hide action or were hidden when combat started. Its just how it goes.
Sneaking/Hiding is just Stealth vs. Passive Perception or Active perception (rolled) if the creature uses the Search action. Its literally that simple.
Outside of combat its the same as in....you roll stealth and if your roll is lower than the perception of the creature you are not hidden. Thats it.
Lots of different views of how to run this (a side effect of the lack of clarity in the surprise rules among other things).
Which is fine, as no system can completely encompass all the variety of different situations.
1) I would either continue initiative from the previous battle or have everyone roll initiative as soon as the character plans to look around the corner. NOTE: I will have the characters do this from time to time even if there isn't an immediate threat simply to prevent the metagame of "rolling initiative = imminent combat". At times, I will have the characters pre-roll initiative so I can use those when combat starts even if the characters/players aren't aware of it - I can ask the players what they are doing in initiative order without telling them that we are using initiative until it becomes obvious.
"Stealth Initiative" is nice. Actually we also sometimes use initiative and turns in case of heated discussion to limit the speaking time of some players and allow everyone to have a say, so why not.
And I agree that sometimes you need to do it that way because the metagaming is extremely strong about this, a lot of players would change their declaration of peeking in the next room if the DM was to ask to roll for initiative...
2) In my opinion, and in my game, this scenario would not be subject to surprise at all. The surprise rules state "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." It doesn't specify whether this is a specific threat or a general threat - in my opinion any threat will do.
The goblins aren't hiding. They haven't specifically set themselves up as difficult to see or otherwise make themselves difficult to notice. They are down the corridor around the corner with weapons at the ready. In addition, they are aware of an approaching creature due to the failed stealth roll. The character is aware of general threats but not a specific one yet and so is both wary and on guard. They won't be caught by surprise.If the goblins were specifically hiding in an ambush the result might be different but in the scenario described by the OP they are not. The character is fully aware of the threat posed by goblins somewhere down this corridor.
Honestly, this is playing the goblins really dumbly. Even if they were not hidden before by default, they can hide as a bonus action, and just need not to be seen clearly, which they are not as they are around the corner. And that is even assuming that the wizard might not even look their way first.
I just wanted to add that the following is what the OP wrote about the goblin behaviour and the situation:
"A couple other points: there are two goblins where the PC and familiar are looking, and the PCs were just fighting a corridor over, so they were heard. Similarly, one of the gobs had come up to check on the situation and actually was seen by a PC - the gob immediately ran back. At least one PC heard the goblins arguing loudly. The goblins are behind a 3-foot wall with readied actions for whatever comes around the corner. there is no way there could be an ambush - surprise is out of the question. they know each other are there but the PC and familiar are just trying to see in the room."
They are around the corner, "arguing loudly", and were just seen peeking around a corner looking at the PCs just before this. It's up to the DM how they want to run this but personally, if a DM said "oops you are surprised by the arguing goblins that were just peaking around the corner a few seconds ago and are now taking cover behind a 3 foot wall waiting to poke your head out so they can shoot you" ... I probably wouldn't be playing much with that DM since that really isn't how I understand surprise to work.
On the other hand, if the goblins were hiding, made a stealth role and succeeded, were not seen peeking around the corner themselves, and the players had no idea they were there then sure surprise makes sense. In the scenario the OP described ... not a chance for surprise in my opinion if only because the goblins were explicitly not hiding even if they can do it as a bonus action. They only have 10 int and 8 wis so planning an ambush may not be a forte of theirs :)
The podcast clearly states that you know the position of an invisible creature unless they hide....that is just simply stated.
Yes, of course, even at the bottom of the dungeon, in another city, on another continent and even on a different plane. And no, it's not explicitly stated in particular that way, because it would be ridiculous.
I am not sure how else to state that as its literally a topic of conversation for like 15 mins in there. They say a DM could say that something as part of the environment makes it so they do not have to roll to hide (loud noises covering footsteps, distance, etc...) but otherwise you know where the creature is automatically you can just not see it.
It is RAW as they state the rules from the PHB and its fairly clear once you actually read them.
Actually, it's not that clear from the PH, which is why so many people go to the podcast for the RAI. For example, one things that is not specifically stated in the PH and that always creates controversy is the "passive perception is the bottom floor of perception".
Another that people often miss, including you from the above, is that you can absolutely be within line of sight and still be hidden. There are at least two cases in the podcast, if you listen well, one because it's within line of sight and probably seen, but not seen clearly, and the other one because the target is distracted by something else.
And again, this is both RAW ("You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly" and "if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.") and in the RAI in the podcast.
Nothing is definitive here, and certainly not the "certainties" that you throw around.
You are not hidden in combat until you do the hide action or were hidden when combat started. Its just how it goes.
And the DM can absolutely decide, without any roll, that some creatures were hidden at the start at the combat, as they are quiet, have not been seen, and are not seen clearly.
Sneaking/Hiding is just Stealth vs. Passive Perception or Active perception (rolled) if the creature uses the Search action. Its literally that simple.
Again no, it's not. If it was the case do you believe that it would need a one hour podcast to go through it ? It's written in the RAW much more clearly than your sentence above "The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding." and it's said the in the podcast in no uncertain way "So first thing. To to state upfront is we very intentionally in 5th edition have put stealth in the domain of the DM." And i've given you two examples above of areas in the RAW which are deliberately fuzzy.
Outside of combat its the same as in....
Again, no. Just read the RAW, and listen to the podcast. There are clear differences between:the two, read the middle of this post.
you roll stealth and if your roll is lower than the perception of the creature you are not hidden. Thats it.
Nope. Once more, the rule is specific: "When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence." That means that if the creature is not actively looking for you, it has no chance of finding you. And if he is just unaware of even your existence, he will not find you by chance
It's stealth vs perception. Let's move on.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hi,
Okay, so I have a PC and their familiar peeking around a corner. They rolled very low stealth. I asked for stealth because goblins around the corner and down the corridor are aimed and ready for the first thing they see - which based on the stealth rolls and the gobs' passive perception, it means they see them and to my mind, this means they let loose their shots.
I would give PCs and familiar 3/4 cover and was even thinking of disadvantage for goblins on their shots, since it's just their heads coming around to look - and maybe a bit of body.
The rest of the PCs are not peeking and are kind of behind the peeking PC and their familiar.
My questions are:
- do I let the goblins just shoot? If I give them disadvantage (not saying that's set in stone) it's unlikely they'll hit.
- do I need to roll initiative here first? Or should the goblins let loose? (rules seem to intend initiative is rolled before any shots are fired, to allow for them to see the shots and get out of the way).
- I wouldn't necessarily say the PCs are surprised - it was just after a battle and the PC and familiar are being cautious
My gut says the goblins loose their shots, and the PC will likely turn back and say what happened. But I just don't know how that jives with RAW. Help! What would you do?
DM - And In The Darkness, Rot: The Sunless Citadel
DM - Our Little Lives Kept In Equipoise: Curse of Strahd
DM - Misprize Thou Not These Shadows That Belong: The Lost Mines of Phandelver
PC - Azzure - Tyranny of Dragons
I don't think that the PC would necessarily be surprised, since they were overtly expecting more combat at that time, hence the sneaking in the first place. The goblins themselves weren't stealthily hidden... they just happened to be standing guard around a corner. However, you did mention that the goblins have their bows readied, which reads to me as the Ready Action. So in this case the goblins would be using their reaction the moment they see a non-goblin figure. I don't see anything in your description that would give the goblins disadvantage, but 3/4 cover makes sense. I also think you should go ahead and roll initiative at that moment as well... goblins use their reaction to fire, then the round starts as normal from there, including all the other PCs as well, since they'll be reacting to this in the moment.
If you want to be nicer to your player and not get them immediately shot in the face by what I'm assuming to be at least a half dozen arrows all at once, you could forego the idea of a readied action and just have whichever goblins beat them in initiative fire before they pull back and do whatever it is they're planning to do in this situation. But I suppose my main bit of advice is yes, you should go ahead and roll initiative right off the bat, and then run the rest of the encounter based on your best judgment.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Surprise is an interesting mechanic because in some situations it's kind of up to the DM what necessarily triggers it. I think that "doesn't notice a threat" doesn't necessarily apply to a situation when a character is attempting to scout out a room they believe to be filled with enemies who are not actively trying to hide. The RAW for Surprise actually includes the phrase "If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. " The moment they peek around the corner they Notice the Threat, unless they have terrible wisdom and like... negative passive perception. However, this is one of those fringe examples that really depends on the DM... because although I wouldn't give the goblins a surprise round in my game, I think it makes enough sense that I wouldn't argue with my DM if they said it happened.
I think the most important thing I got wrong was forgetting that the Ready action is a combat action and, per RAW, can't be done outside of combat.
RAW, I'd say that, if the goblins aren't attempting to hide and are simply standing guard, they spot the player, initiative is rolled, and any goblins who beat the PC in initiative get an attack against them, while the PC has 3/4 cover. However, if the goblins were deliberately hiding to set up an ambush, the DM should do a stealth roll for them, see if it beats the PC's passive perception, and give the goblins the benefit of surprising if they succeed on their stealth check.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
It's rare to use passive stats other than perception, since so few game mechanics actively call for them. But I think using a goblin's passive stealth in this situation makes perfect sense. Goblins are so naturally stealthy that they get Roguelike stealth abilities as a racial trait. I think using their passive stealth versus the PC's passive perception is a creative and fun way to determine whether or not goblins in a situation like this get the full benefits of surprise.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
A couple other points: there are two goblins where the PC and familiar are looking, and the PCs were just fighting a corridor over, so they were heard. Similarly, one of the gobs had come up to check on the situation and actually was seen by a PC - the gob immediately ran back. At least one PC heard the goblins arguing loudly. The goblins are behind a 3-foot wall with readied actions for whatever comes around the corner.
DM - And In The Darkness, Rot: The Sunless Citadel
DM - Our Little Lives Kept In Equipoise: Curse of Strahd
DM - Misprize Thou Not These Shadows That Belong: The Lost Mines of Phandelver
PC - Azzure - Tyranny of Dragons
I think I like this one the best so far.
A couple other points: there are two goblins where the PC and familiar are looking, and the PCs were just fighting a corridor over, so they were heard. Similarly, one of the gobs had come up to check on the situation and actually was seen by a PC - the gob immediately ran back. At least one PC heard the goblins arguing loudly. The goblins are behind a 3-foot wall with readied actions for whatever comes around the corner. there is no way there could be an ambush - surprise is out of the question. they know each other are there but the PC and familiar are just trying to see in the room.
i guess my reasoning for disadvantage was a bit of feel bad in case the PCs face got knocked off (he's a wizard, so maybe it's the case he shouldn't be looking around dangerous corners anyway :)
the other was maybe the difficulty of the shot itself. like, i know this kind of depth isn't covered in the rules, but the shot would have to be timed perfectly.
i'm still thinking the arrows get loosed, but then initiative is rolled.
DM - And In The Darkness, Rot: The Sunless Citadel
DM - Our Little Lives Kept In Equipoise: Curse of Strahd
DM - Misprize Thou Not These Shadows That Belong: The Lost Mines of Phandelver
PC - Azzure - Tyranny of Dragons
I agree with you on a lot, but I don’t understand your logic here. Eventually every single party member ends up readying every action possible to get the jump. Why not just use surprise more readily instead of a wonky “out of combat ready action”?
My thoughts always go back to NPCs. Technically the 100 goblins on the battlements are always readying actions to shoot the first person in range then, which means whomever steps into view first automatically takes 100 arrows before initiative is even rolled. It just sounds silly.
What does allowing ready actions solve that Surprise doesn’t?
I would call for an initiative roll and then, based on the description in the OP, the gobbos would get a surprise round, meaning they act on their initiative and the PCs don't. Then next round, everyone goes on initiative order.
I would give 3/4 cover to the peeking player but NOT disadvantage because "only their head and shoulders are showing." That's what 3/4 cover basically means.
So, initiative, surprise round, gobbos fire. The Ready action is irrelevant here because of the surprise round.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I genuinely think following RAW in this situation would solve any confusion and keep consistent balance. Adding in house rules to ready actions out of combat gives artificial advantages (usually in the form of surprise).
I'd rule it as:
Player wants to peak around corner. If goblins are actively looking for the players (sounds like they are), then there's no stealth check to avoid being seen - if your player can see the goblins, the goblins can see them.
If there is a reason the player might not be seen before rolling initiative, such as the goblins are distracted, there's low light, or other narrative reasons that would allow the player to peek around the corner without being seen, then have the player roll a stealth check.
Yes, attack? Roll initiative - Goblins are surprised.
No, don't attack? Play continues.
I agree right up to the point where you let the players attack with surprise. A goblin, behind a wall, with their bows trained on the corner that the players will come around ready to fire, expecting the players to come around the corner, is not surprised when they do so.
I don't think either party should be surprised - the goblins know the PC's are there, the players know the goblins are there. Whilst having a readied action outside of combat isn't RAW, it's the way I'd play it. Alternatively, if you want to keep it RAW, then roll initiative as the PC sticks their head around the corner, not after, and as soon as that combat begins, treat the goblins as having readied actions. then the head pokes out.
The only way that the PC could be surprised is if they failed to notice the goblins. A perception check might have been more relevant - they stick their head out, they see no goblins, they step out, surprise - there are goblins!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
Readied actions do not exist outside of combat.
So unless initiative is rolled the goblins are not readied to fire on the corner. A player cannot ready an action to fire on the goblin. They either attack and initiative is rolled or they do not and they continue sneaking around the goblin or vice versa. No combat actions can occur outside of combat...keeping it this way makes things a LOT more clear.
Once combat is started the rules for stealth are clear: You have to have full obstruction (i.e. break LOS) and roll a Stealth Check vs the creatures Passive Perception. If you roll higher you are hidden and would have advantage on the next attack against that creature.
If you pop your head out to look you have broken obstruction and therefore are not hidden. If the goblin use the Search action and roll higher than your stealth check they find you.
If a goblin (knowing you are behind the pillar) moves to a location where they can get LOS behind said pillar and see you are not hidden.
Otherwise per RAW the player is hidden if they:
1. Break LOS
2. Hide
3. Roll Stealth> Passive Perception
Does this mean that a player is hidden if the goblin points an arrow where they think the player will pop out?
Ask these questions:
1. Did the player break LOS from the goblin? Yes
2. Did the player Hide and roll a stealth higher than the passive perception of the goblin? Yes
They player is hidden from the goblin and would have ADV on the shot if they popped out to shoot.
HOWEVER....the goblin's condition is still met. There is a person where they are looking to fire. They get to fire on the player as well.
This then gets into the Xanathar rules:
Simultaneous Effects
Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.
The player would get to decide which attack goes first.
The real rub is this: If the player says the goblin attack goes first are they still "hidden" and the attack is at disadvantage? I would argue no since the effects are simultaneous the goblin is seeing the player but the player still got the drop on the goblin from the Hide action.
Player would roll the attack with ADV. Goblin would roll normally.
Flavor it as the player came out in a low stance that the goblin was not expecting.
I did minterpret the orignal scenario but the rules for stealth/hiding are correct.
1. Break LOS: you can do this via anyway you are obscured. Invisibility, darkness, behind total cover. It does not matter as long as the person you are attempting to hide from cannot see you.
2. Hide action. You must do this bit. You have to have a hide action in order to become unseen/unheard to fully qualify as hidden from the creature. This relies on your Stealth roll vs. their passive perception.
3. If you can do the above you are hidden and would benefit from being so if you choose to attack from this state.
If any of the above conditions change ( you are spotted, darkness removed via torche/magic, you are visible now) then you are no longer hidden.
Because I misinterpreted the original scenario I introduced a second concept but it still holds true: If you Ready and action and the trigger occurs you get that action.
However, if the situation dictated that they had used the Hide action and successfully rolled Stealth vs Passive Perception they would be hidden. However say the goblin saw the creature go behind the pillar but cannot tell where they are at now. They could Ready an action to fire on the first thing to appear from behind the pillar. They do not move or perform another action.
The player then decides on their turn to fire from the hidden position. They are hidden from the goblin so they get ADV but once they come out to fire they would proc the readied action from the goblin.
Both actions/effects happen at the same time. According to Xanathars since this falls on the PLAYERS turn they get to decide what effects/actions occur in what order if they happen at the same time.
Regardless of the scenario you use this information to answer the original question as every aspect has to fall in a certain order or else it is does not qualify for being hidden.
Looking back at the original question: You need to determine what cover the goblins have
If they have full cover and are popping out to shoot on their turns and moving back behind full cover they would not be able to be targeted at ALL by the players unless they get better LOS and bypass the full cover.
If they are behind 3/4 cover you would use the rules for that cover.
The same goes for the players: what cover are they behind? Full cover the goblins cannot even shoot at them. If they are only popping out during their turn to shoot and going back then they cannot be hit if they are behind full cover.
If the goblin or player chooses to ready an action to shoot they would have to maintain a LOS on the area they intend to shoot at so they would need to pop out and hold that position. In this case they are leaving full cover to afford them chance at a readied attack action.
This means the player can then pop out and target them...but incur the readied attack action as well. Both shoot and since they are at the same time the player would decide who goes first.
Also another misconception:
You are not hidden unless you take the action to do so.
Goblins just standing around a corner are not hidden....they are out of LOS and cannot be seen. If they are not actively attempting to hide their position is known.
This is the same for invisible creatures. You know their position unless they use the Hide action. This is because you can use other factors (smells, sound, etc...) to determine the location of an invisible creature. You can hide at any time while invisible as you have qualified: You have broken LOS with the person you are attempting to hide from.
However, being invisible infers the bonus of being invisible which means you have ADV on attacks against creatures that cannot see you and they have DIS to hit you. But they know where you are.
It was broken down in great detail in this discussion with Jeremy Crawford: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/james-haeck-dd-writing
Since the original poster asked for the RAW ruling I would suggest we stay with that and not impose our own view points that do not have any bearing on the RAW.
Lots of different views of how to run this (a side effect of the lack of clarity in the surprise rules among other things).
Anyway, here is how I tend to run things.
The party just had an encounter in the previous corridor according to the OP and are sneaking along the corridor looking for more. The expectation seems to be that more enemies could be encountered.
1) I would either continue initiative from the previous battle or have everyone roll initiative as soon as the character plans to look around the corner. NOTE: I will have the characters do this from time to time even if there isn't an immediate threat simply to prevent the metagame of "rolling initiative = imminent combat". At times, I will have the characters pre-roll initiative so I can use those when combat starts even if the characters/players aren't aware of it - I can ask the players what they are doing in initiative order without telling them that we are using initiative until it becomes obvious.
2) In my opinion, and in my game, this scenario would not be subject to surprise at all. The surprise rules state "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." It doesn't specify whether this is a specific threat or a general threat - in my opinion any threat will do.
The goblins aren't hiding. They haven't specifically set themselves up as difficult to see or otherwise make themselves difficult to notice. They are down the corridor around the corner with weapons at the ready. In addition, they are aware of an approaching creature due to the failed stealth roll. The character is aware of general threats but not a specific one yet and so is both wary and on guard. They won't be caught by surprise.If the goblins were specifically hiding in an ambush the result might be different but in the scenario described by the OP they are not. The character is fully aware of the threat posed by goblins somewhere down this corridor.
RAW reads ... "Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side." - In this case, the PC tried to hide and failed while the goblins didn't even try to hide. Surprise is clearly NOT an option here RAW.
3) Resolving in initiative order
- if the PC has initiative they manage to peek around the corner quickly, see the goblins and duck back before the goblins can shift their aim to the correct height to effectively fire at the PC.
- if the goblins have initiative they use a held action to ready their ranged weapon to fire. When the PC quickly looks around the corner they are not fast enough to avoid the return fire from the goblins which is resolved with a +5 to AC due to 3/4 cover.
After that, continue to resolve actions by the party and the goblins in initiative order.
Wow there's a lot of really longwinded.
Your goblins have readied actions, cool, yep. Time exists outside of combat, they know about the party - all good IMO. I'd be happy to loose the arrows before rolling initiative with immersion in mind, if you roll initiative first it will cause your players to think COMBAT and probably run headfirst into the volley. To be fair to the player, I'd probably only get one or two goblins to fire and they would get 3/4 cover from the arrows (no disadvantage, that's what the 3/4 cover is for here).
Then roll initiative - nobody is surprised. Begin combat as normal.
Readied actions do not exist outside of combat: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/06/can-players-use-the-ready-action-before-initiative-is-rolled/
You would instead determine if anyone was surprised. If the stealth roll was low no one was surprised and initiative rolls as normal and the order decides who shoots first.
I think you did not listen to the podcast....here is a thread that gives the TLDR if you so choose: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/2793-stealth-advice-from-jeremy-crawford
Being out of LOS makes you heavily obscured....you cannot be targeted by spells/attacks/abilities that state you have to see the target. This does not immediately make you hidden. You have to use the hide action to be hidden.
Outside of combat you are correct it is a stealth check vs passive perception....just like in combat. However if you are detected it is up to the DM how things go. If they believe the goblins would attack outsiders on sight then initiative is rolled.
Yes you do know the position of all creatures...its weird but its how it rules go as per the guy who wrote them. I am sorry you do not like it but as I stated before RAW has been clarified. You know where an invisible creature is and thats just how it goes....you still get DIS to attack them and they get ADV to attack you. He said there could be circumstances that the DM incurs (such as distance) that would allow you forgo the hide check. However, its a bit nebulous on what that includes? Overall in the scenario that OP related no one is hidden.
The podcast clearly states that you know the position of an invisible creature unless they hide....that is just simply stated. I am not sure how else to state that as its literally a topic of conversation for like 15 mins in there. They say a DM could say that something as part of the environment makes it so they do not have to roll to hide (loud noises covering footsteps, distance, etc...) but otherwise you know where the creature is automatically you can just not see it.
It is RAW as they state the rules from the PHB and its fairly clear once you actually read them.
You are not hidden in combat until you do the hide action or were hidden when combat started. Its just how it goes.
Sneaking/Hiding is just Stealth vs. Passive Perception or Active perception (rolled) if the creature uses the Search action. Its literally that simple.
Outside of combat its the same as in....you roll stealth and if your roll is lower than the perception of the creature you are not hidden. Thats it.
I just wanted to add that the following is what the OP wrote about the goblin behaviour and the situation:
"A couple other points: there are two goblins where the PC and familiar are looking, and the PCs were just fighting a corridor over, so they were heard. Similarly, one of the gobs had come up to check on the situation and actually was seen by a PC - the gob immediately ran back. At least one PC heard the goblins arguing loudly. The goblins are behind a 3-foot wall with readied actions for whatever comes around the corner. there is no way there could be an ambush - surprise is out of the question. they know each other are there but the PC and familiar are just trying to see in the room."
They are around the corner, "arguing loudly", and were just seen peeking around a corner looking at the PCs just before this. It's up to the DM how they want to run this but personally, if a DM said "oops you are surprised by the arguing goblins that were just peaking around the corner a few seconds ago and are now taking cover behind a 3 foot wall waiting to poke your head out so they can shoot you" ... I probably wouldn't be playing much with that DM since that really isn't how I understand surprise to work.
On the other hand, if the goblins were hiding, made a stealth role and succeeded, were not seen peeking around the corner themselves, and the players had no idea they were there then sure surprise makes sense. In the scenario the OP described ... not a chance for surprise in my opinion if only because the goblins were explicitly not hiding even if they can do it as a bonus action. They only have 10 int and 8 wis so planning an ambush may not be a forte of theirs :)
It's stealth vs perception. Let's move on.