I'm pretty new to returning to DnD, I used to play 2E back in the 80's -and convinced my 13yo Godson that he'd enjoy it, so consequently I committed to running a campaign for him and his friends.
We began DoIP last year, and I've got myself up to speed with the core rules and run a pretty tight campaign, I'm quite details oriented and as an older DM I enjoy the role-playing, world building, character development aspect - whereas I know my players, would be more than happy just beating the crap out of monsters in every session, (they are young teens after all), but also I'm trying to engage them with becoming more imaginative, exploring their characters and helping to explore and add to the narrative... So far, so good. They understand what I'm doing and have thrown me some curve balls but it's definitely fun.
My godson has since been DMing himself and provides episodic sessions with an emphasis on combat and less on connective storylines... So they get their combat fix there...
We started DoIP last year and I'm pretty much following it as a framework for expanding and embellishing where the source is ambiguous or vague... There's enough material 'out there' to build on and I'm happy to this, drawing on historic elements from LMoP, for example... The abandoned Cragmaw Castle is included as a setting when heading into Neverwinter woods, the PCs have yet to discover it, but it's there, waiting...
But here's the thing, when we started the campaign, we ignored the basic rules that came with the Essentials kit and jumped straight into building characters from TPH... Then added some features from XGE for good measure... And I'm only just now realising that DoIP was balanced for the classes/races that appear in the basic rules, and I'm running it with classes, races, features, feats and so on that are more advanced than it was designed for... furthermore I'm introducing a Blood Hunter DMPC to the party with a home brew 'Battle Crab' (A weaponised Barrel crab from Gnomengard) because of the way the PCs developed the narrative... I imagine you understand how this can happen... They'll effectively become a PC sidekick. (Which I need to read up on but thats a sidenote)
So anyway, I'm left with the situation where my PCs could well be more powerful than the Encounters as written and my lack of experience in running/designing combat encounters is a cause for concern, striking that balance between making encounters too easy, vs turning Cryovain into an adult white dragon (which is tempting) that could potentially TPK in a couple of turns...
I don't really understand the weighting system for Challenge Ratings and all that jazz to confidently re-engineer the encounters as written in the source... But know I probably need to in order for the party to find it engaging and fun...
To add to the frustration, I think my players know their characters abilities and understand their capabilities, spells and so on much more than I do as a DM, a couple of them in particular are strategic geniuses and can pretty much run rings around me when it comes to other board games. So even if I did balance the encounters well, chances are the choices I make as a DM in the encounter as to what the NPCs do (whilst possibly 'realistic' from a character perspective) would probably be pretty crap strategically...
Bearing in mind that they're kids, have loads of time, and absorb information like sponges and I'm an adult, with time constraints and my information retention isn't as good as it used to be...
So, any advice welcome. Particularly from more mature DMs, or when it comes to running combat and getting my head into the right space.
I might be over thinking this and that is all part of the learning curve...
I am up to (probably) the final encounter this evening, running this in parallel with HoDQ same players. I didn't restrict their choices either with character creation I don't think that upsets the balance much. There is always the possibility of a TPK if they take risks, or they are really unlucky, but on the whole I think the encounters are fine if you follow the advice on the numbers, but you can add a monster or two and you should be challenging them. The Dragon on the end, they are basically going to hit it fresh with most of their resources, so I am going to look at the hit point range a Young Dragon can have, my party is lv5 not 6 so I think switching it for an adult is a bit much but will see, they don't know its stats it's your Dragon adjust as required.
I ran DoIP for an experienced group last year. I did have to scale up encounters to make some of them more challenging. In addition, the plot of DoIP can be improved a bit by using some or all of the ideas from this article. I used them to help tie the plot together a bit better but how useful that would be depends on how much of the module you have already played. I didn't write the following but I found the ideas quite useful.
This ties together the Anchorite of Talos plot lines. The lightning and thunder elements, the Tower of Storms and various other elements. The orcs can still be displaced by the dragon or you can have the orcs being used as servants of the dragon.
Cryovain becomes a young blue dragon which is significantly tougher than a young white dragon without being as deadly as an adult white dragon. My party still didn't have that much trouble with Cryovain as a young blue dragon but they would have mopped the floor with a young white dragon and since the dragon encounter is essentially the conclusion of the module it is more fun if it is a bit challenging.
You don't mention how many players you have which is more of a factor that what classes they are. 5e is quite a bit more balanced than previous editions so using content from other sources like the PHB, Xanathar's etc will not usually break the encounters, especially in tier 1. However, more characters is a huge factor. 3 vs 4 vs 6 represents increases of 33% to 100% in total party capability. It is definitely a factor in encounter balance. So if you have a relatively large party already you may want to reconsider adding an NPC ... and if the party is small but very effective, an NPC is likely to make them much more effective but also provide a buffer if things go sideways.
P.S. In terms of making encounters cautiously more difficult, it might be a good idea to use waves of attackers from time to time. If the party is having trouble delay, remove or make a subsequent wave weaker than you originally planned.
Thanks David, l will check that article out shortly, I'm not really that far in to the campaign, I took a few months off due to work commitments, and we're only just back to Phandalin after completing the first batch of 3 Quests.
There is 5 in the party all told... All level 3, bar the fighter who's still at 2... We also have three Spellcasters, (A War Wizard, A Light Cleric, A Moon Druid) and a Rogue.
Since writing the post this morning I've drilled into the DMG about balancing encounters and tried to analyse the next 2x Quests (ButterSkull ranch and Loggers Camp) to see how those encounters match up against the Party potential... The biggest hitter by far is the Cleric who can do a level 2 'inflict damage' spell that deals up to 40dam but only twice, then the Cleric with moonbeam which so long as they concentrate can inflict up to 24dam per turn, and of course they can wildshape into bears and stuff, so they're a bit of a wild card (no pun intended)...
(When analysing the individual potential of each PC, the DMG says to check the max damage possible per PC, cross reference their Saving throws and with that information consult the Challenge Rating table)
Checking that table against party level to determine the suggested CR for the encounter kind of makes sense, but by its own admission, whilst you can run some analysis and make judgements based on empirical information taken from your PCs characteristics, selecting the actual creatures to face off against those PCs, is an 'art form'
Nice.
So whilst I have a bit of an understanding of how to guage what creatures I could throw at them, that 'art form' choice means I can be left in quandary, it still feels more like sticking a pin in it, but I suppose there's at least there's some level of educated reasoning applied beforehand.
With all this mind, I've looked at the next quests and have come to the following conclusions.
I'm going to stick to the modules suggested quantities of ankhegs for now in the Loggers Camp, and I'm playing around with minion types based on the angrygm articles about minions for ButterSkull ranch and throw a mini-horde of goblins, plus Orcs, at the same time, albeit spread around the farmhouse, hiding or running around like crazy fools. The module suggests 3 times the amount of orcs, so in our case that'd be 15... But my minion gangs consist of 4x Goblins per gang... Each with a CR 1/4 rating... with 8x goblin gangs in total and 10 orcs (CR 1/2) loitering around...
If I'm reading the DMG tables correctly, having analysed the PCs I think that's a reasonably winnable but exciting encounter for them...
Plus theres a big pond outside and our wizard has a 'water bending' shape water cantrip which he'll no doubt use to drop water bubble helmets onto the orcs heads and drown them... (He came up with that all on his own, I couldn't not reward that creativity, so now it's part of his arsenal of attacks...)
So yeah. They'll be ok I reckon...
On the way to the Loggers Camp I might give them the option of finding the ruins of Cragmaw Castle, or not, I'm not sure yet... Whatever happens it's just for flavour/world building, knowing the events from LMoP took place the previous year, it might be nice to have some references to a battle there and maybe they uncover some treasure, or the opening to a mini abandoned dungeon crawl/mini monster bash session just to satisfy the kids craving for combat and give me some practice at running encounters...
In terms of making encounters cautiously more difficult, it might be a good idea to use waves of attackers from time to time. If the party is having trouble delay, remove or make a subsequent wave weaker than you originally planned.
I would strongly support this suggestion. I actually use this method in my own groups that I DM, since it gives you a lot more freedom of choice based on how well (or not) the players are doing in a particular battle. I usually have a main encounter designed for a particular situation, but my notes have X-amount of other things that show up a couple rounds later.
For example, the party is in the middle fighting a couple gnolls with four hyenas in an abandoned mine. Characters are high enough level that the encounter is fairly easy, and the good die rolls are making it fairly unchallenging. To compensate, I have an additional gnoll leading a hyena into the area a couple rounds later to investigate the ruckus being caused by the battle. Nothing earthshattering, but it replaces some of the easy kills that occurred in the first few rounds. If the players struggle or the dice are misbehaving, then I don't have to introduce anything that might make things go completely sideways.
When I'm really trying to balance encounters, I'll use the encounter builder and test it out. I have a test ground campaign in Roll20... and then I throw the party and the encounter on the map and then use Beyond20 to roll their stats, actions, saves, etc and really see what can happen. By now you probably have a good grasp of what they would do (but there will always be surprises). You can test out how lair actions or other legendary things impact how the play goes... then you can fine tune. Sometimes the bad guys just need more HP to make them more survivable but not more deadly. Test out what happens if they fly or if they stay grounded, etc. It still won't guarantee what will happen in the real fight, but it will give you a good feeling of what your party can bring against you when you throw down the Big Bad...
If I used a lot of references to things that didn't make sense in the above statement, let me know and I'll make some time later today to spell that out in more detail... and maybe link to some screenshots...
Thanks Javier - I think David added that PS after I’d read it...
I already use waves - I’m an ex video-games developer and I’m hooked to the idea of boss/sub boss battles - (it’s just how I think) - so the concept of wave based combat with triggers and behavioural changes is very familiar to me - in fact in DoIP campaign I’m running, the ‘When Orcs Attack’ encounter of the Dwarves Excavation quest that’s exactly what I did, with 3x Gangs of Goblins (12 individual goblin minions) and 3 Orcs, one of whom is a home-brew ‘orc gaffer’ (a mini boss orc) - based on angry GM’s Paragon system of layering up multiple orcs in one place, giving them hit point pools and having behaviour change based on which HP Pool they’re currently in... in this context, the gaffer was wearing Chain mail over hide armour, with 3pools of 15hp, when it enters the final pool, the Chainmail is effectively destroyed, so they their AC drops, but they also get angrier (Think Hulk) so they get an +1 turn per pool depleted to zero - so in essence whilst they get easier to hit, they can inflict more damage...
It worked fine... except I’d misjudged the players abilities, the wizard floored the first wave of goblins with earth tremor, incapacitating them long enough for them to be picked off by a couple of well placed arrows, one was garrotted with a thorn whip, and the last was stabbed by a pair of daggers (via a natty crit!). - triggering my second wave of orcs, both of whom we dispatched swiftly with one one getting a hit in on the Druid, who promptly wild shapes (combat wild shape) into a Brown Bear, the death of the 2nd orc triggered the third and final wave, the Orc Gaffer and another Gang of Goblins, who were all annihilated in one go with ice knife and associated splash damage (DMs fault for keeping the Goblins too close together) and then the poor old Gaffer, tried his best, managed to plunge his spear into the bear, but was swiftly surrounded and when he tried to run to find space, got torn to shreds by the Druid/Brown Bear... :/
The Kids enjoyed the encounter, but I had hoped there would be a bit more jeopardy... I think in hindsight I stuck to my plan hard fast rather than being flexible and adapting it accordingly, I suppose that’s the more judicious use of wave based combat, and in future I’ll be more prepared with perhaps as you say something else if it goes to easy... and the option of dropping that if it goes tits up... (If you pardon the expression)
Thanks for the input - it’s reassuring to know that I’m on the right lines - albeit in need of some tweaking.... :)
...and that thought had occurred to me too... my problem is lack of time to test ideas other than in ‘live’ sessions, pus I don’t subscribe to Roll20 (I used to play on paper back in the day, and I’m happy to run stuff over video calls with online whiteboards, screen shares and hefty amount of notes in OneNote... plus my subs to DDB) - that said, I may set aside an afternoon to get to know the PCs and their abilities a bit more - it’s all a bit vague for me at the moment, and I’m relying on them being upfront about certain aspects of their characters abilities and sometimes I’m pretty sure that their interpretation of the rules isn’t quite on point... but, y’know, they’re kids, and it’s about having fun not being a rule nazi - plus, any questions raised I’ll flag in my notes and pick up between sessions by reviewing the various handbooks and any discrepancies get ironed out next session...
Thanks again, I appreciate the input - Although I’m new to this community and (sort of) new to Dnd (5e specifically) - I’m and an old timer when it comes to gaming interests in general...
I am up to (probably) the final encounter this evening, running this in parallel with HoDQ same players. I didn't restrict their choices either with character creation I don't think that upsets the balance much. There is always the possibility of a TPK if they take risks, or they are really unlucky, but on the whole I think the encounters are fine if you follow the advice on the numbers, but you can add a monster or two and you should be challenging them. The Dragon on the end, they are basically going to hit it fresh with most of their resources, so I am going to look at the hit point range a Young Dragon can have, my party is lv5 not 6 so I think switching it for an adult is a bit much but will see, they don't know its stats it's your Dragon adjust as required.
I am up to (probably) the final encounter this evening, running this in parallel with HoDQ same players. I didn't restrict their choices either with character creation I don't think that upsets the balance much. There is always the possibility of a TPK if they take risks, or they are really unlucky, but on the whole I think the encounters are fine if you follow the advice on the numbers, but you can add a monster or two and you should be challenging them. The Dragon on the end, they are basically going to hit it fresh with most of their resources, so I am going to look at the hit point range a Young Dragon can have, my party is lv5 not 6 so I think switching it for an adult is a bit much but will see, they don't know its stats it's your Dragon adjust as required.
Thanks, sorry missed this post - that’s really helpful... cheers. :)
No worries, Ranners. It sounds like you're already on the right track to finding a method that works well for you and your particular group. Just wanted to mention/emphasize David's suggestion, since it's a concept that some DMs don't necessarily think about...especially when they're using a published adventure. Not saying it's the right way to DM, since there's really no wrong way as long as everybody at the table is having fun, but it does work well to keep things challenging while still having enough of an "escape clause" if things aren't going well.
Personally, I've had to go both ways with that style numerous times. The wizard's fireball spell wiping out a dozen goblins in round one means that a little extra on round two or three keeps things engaging a little longer...Or, vice versa, an enemies attacks being a lot more effective means that they don't need a couple extra bodies to help out later. I just adjust accordingly so that my players feel like they've earned the victory (without most of them in the process).
Best wishes on refining your personal approaches and preferences, and keep up the good work keeping it fun for your group!
...and that thought had occurred to me too... my problem is lack of time to test ideas other than in ‘live’ sessions, pus I don’t subscribe to Roll20 (I used to play on paper back in the day, and I’m happy to run stuff over video calls with online whiteboards, screen shares and hefty amount of notes in OneNote... plus my subs to DDB) - that said, I may set aside an afternoon to get to know the PCs and their abilities a bit more - it’s all a bit vague for me at the moment, and I’m relying on them being upfront about certain aspects of their characters abilities and sometimes I’m pretty sure that their interpretation of the rules isn’t quite on point... but, y’know, they’re kids, and it’s about having fun not being a rule nazi - plus, any questions raised I’ll flag in my notes and pick up between sessions by reviewing the various handbooks and any discrepancies get ironed out next session...
Thanks again, I appreciate the input - Although I’m new to this community and (sort of) new to Dnd (5e specifically) - I’m and an old timer when it comes to gaming interests in general...
Cheers
P. :)
Hey... my first boxed set of D&D was red. I understand. Roll20 makes it easy for me (and I have a campaign that runs on it weekly, so I am familiar with the interface), but you can do the same thing with a whiteboard. Time is definitely the most difficult part for those of us that aren't teenagers anymore (or tweens or thirty somethings or what have ya)... but sounds like the right way to approach dealing with them. Also, I'm a strong proponent of knowing what your players can do. Not to beat them, but so that you spend less time at the table trying to figure something out and more time involved with the fight. Cause let's face it, rules don't often come into play with the roleplaying aspects... mostly it is the crunch of the fight that a curve-ball can bring an exciting moment to a slow grind in a hurry. In the end, though, having fun with the players is the single most important aspect... and getting to know them better is a bonus that happens naturally.
A couple of things to keep in mind. You like using goblins which are glass cannons against a level 3 party. Each only has 7 hit points so even level 1AoE spells like earth tremor can be effective since on average it takes out 1/2 of their hit points if they fail the save. However, Earth tremor is within 10' of the caster and only the caster is unaffected so the caster has to run into the middle of the enemies to cast it without affecting their friends.
- AoE works pretty well against relatively weak opponents
- hit points matter - monsters remain fully effective until zero hit points - this means that low hit point targets like goblins are actually much easier once the party can deal a reasonable level of damage.
- numbers matter - combat in 5e revolves around action economy - any fight with 5 vs 2 is much much easier than 5 vs 4. The four creatures get 4 actions each round, the party gets 5. Even using waves, 2+2 is much easier than 4 at once again due to actions available. A party that easily defeats 2 orcs + 2orcs later could end up with unconscious or dead characters if faced with 4 orcs all at once.
- In your two goblin spell examples, you had all the goblins mostly eliminated by first an earth tremor and then by ice knife. They must have been very unlucky goblins. If your wizard has a 16 int then the spell DC is 13 and the goblins only need to roll an 11 to save against either spell (they have +2 dex). Neither spell does anything to the creature on a successful save so on average I'd have thought they would take out 1/2 the goblins in either case not all of them.
- at level 3 and 4, the moon druid in brown bear form is pretty much the most powerful melee combatant in the game. They have two attacks with a good to hit and exceptional damage for the level. The brown bear also has more hit points that most characters at this level and the moon druid can switch twice since changing is only a bonus action. (This balances out a lot at level 5).
- when assessing spell damage look at the average and not the maximum since that is the damage it will usually do. A level 2 inflict wounds will do 4d10 damage IF it hits. Chances of hitting are usually around 50% for level appropriate enemies. 4d10 will average 22 damage which is enough for an orc.
- the moon beam spell does an average of 11 (2d10) (save for 1/2) within a 10' square (5' radius from a grid point within range) but it doesn't take effect until the creature's turn so the creatures are likely to spread out to avoid it. In addition, it takes the druid's action to move it every turn. It is a good spell but the moon druid might well be doing more damage as a brown bear.
- do the characters have all their resources? If the party is always full of resources at the start of every combat then the fights will be much easier than when it is the second or third of the day and they have already used resources (this is also an element of encounter balance - a cleric with their second level spells slots is different from one without).
Finally, watch out for several of the encounters which can be a TPK under the wrong circumstances.
1) The Shrine of Savras as written has a decent chance to be a TPK against any party since the forces in the shrine scale up with party level and they are pretty nasty.
The scaling for level 2-3 for example is:
3 ores per character plus 2 ogres in the courtyard (area S2), 1 orc atop the northeast tower (area S6)
The orcs have a watcher in place keeping an eye out for creatures approaching so surprise isn't likely unless they come at night and the orcs still have darkvision. 15 orcs and 2 ogres is likely more than enough to wipe your party of 5 level 3s. When I ran DoIP - I left this one out altogether, the characters didn't end up following up on a couple of hints that were dropped.
2) Mountain Toe Gold Mine
The mine has been taken over by wererats. For a party of 5 this means at least 7 wererats. The problem? Wererats are immune to damage from normal weapons and there are only a few sources of magical weapons in the entire module (there also isn't much in the way of silvered weapons). The moon druid beast form attacks will be ineffective. The fighter won't be able to do anything unless they have found a magical weapon and each wererat has 33 hit points so even inflict wounds is unlikely to kill one - let alone 7.
Luckily the mine can be resolved using "peaceful" means but that doesn't work well for a party that likes to fight.
There are a couple of other spots where the balance can be off but I think those are the worst.
Thanks Again, David, some great advice there... I think I need to be more mindful of the Action Economy, not really got my head around that yet, but makes perfect sense, I’ve seen it discussed elsewhere on YT vids and so on, but you’ve helped clarify it well enough there for it to sink in... again, that old timer brain - sometimes I wish I was 30 years younger.
Having mentioned the sav rolls on the goblins... now I come to think about it... I’m embarrassed to admit that I might have forgotten to apply the Sav Mods... again, stupid old brain... #facepalm
Annoyingly, todays session was cancelled due to two of the players bailing last minute - I’m happy to DMPC one Character, but two... I may as well be playing with myself...
Again, thanks for the effort you’ve put in to replying in such detail, it really helps and I’m super grateful to be able to have this kind of dialogue with folks that remember the ‘red box’ - lol...
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Hi
I'm pretty new to returning to DnD, I used to play 2E back in the 80's -and convinced my 13yo Godson that he'd enjoy it, so consequently I committed to running a campaign for him and his friends.
We began DoIP last year, and I've got myself up to speed with the core rules and run a pretty tight campaign, I'm quite details oriented and as an older DM I enjoy the role-playing, world building, character development aspect - whereas I know my players, would be more than happy just beating the crap out of monsters in every session, (they are young teens after all), but also I'm trying to engage them with becoming more imaginative, exploring their characters and helping to explore and add to the narrative... So far, so good. They understand what I'm doing and have thrown me some curve balls but it's definitely fun.
My godson has since been DMing himself and provides episodic sessions with an emphasis on combat and less on connective storylines... So they get their combat fix there...
We started DoIP last year and I'm pretty much following it as a framework for expanding and embellishing where the source is ambiguous or vague... There's enough material 'out there' to build on and I'm happy to this, drawing on historic elements from LMoP, for example... The abandoned Cragmaw Castle is included as a setting when heading into Neverwinter woods, the PCs have yet to discover it, but it's there, waiting...
But here's the thing, when we started the campaign, we ignored the basic rules that came with the Essentials kit and jumped straight into building characters from TPH... Then added some features from XGE for good measure... And I'm only just now realising that DoIP was balanced for the classes/races that appear in the basic rules, and I'm running it with classes, races, features, feats and so on that are more advanced than it was designed for... furthermore I'm introducing a Blood Hunter DMPC to the party with a home brew 'Battle Crab' (A weaponised Barrel crab from Gnomengard) because of the way the PCs developed the narrative... I imagine you understand how this can happen... They'll effectively become a PC sidekick. (Which I need to read up on but thats a sidenote)
So anyway, I'm left with the situation where my PCs could well be more powerful than the Encounters as written and my lack of experience in running/designing combat encounters is a cause for concern, striking that balance between making encounters too easy, vs turning Cryovain into an adult white dragon (which is tempting) that could potentially TPK in a couple of turns...
I don't really understand the weighting system for Challenge Ratings and all that jazz to confidently re-engineer the encounters as written in the source... But know I probably need to in order for the party to find it engaging and fun...
To add to the frustration, I think my players know their characters abilities and understand their capabilities, spells and so on much more than I do as a DM, a couple of them in particular are strategic geniuses and can pretty much run rings around me when it comes to other board games. So even if I did balance the encounters well, chances are the choices I make as a DM in the encounter as to what the NPCs do (whilst possibly 'realistic' from a character perspective) would probably be pretty crap strategically...
Bearing in mind that they're kids, have loads of time, and absorb information like sponges and I'm an adult, with time constraints and my information retention isn't as good as it used to be...
So, any advice welcome. Particularly from more mature DMs, or when it comes to running combat and getting my head into the right space.
I might be over thinking this and that is all part of the learning curve...
TIA
I meant to post this into the DMs only area..
Sorry, can a Board Mod move it for me please?
Cheers.
I am up to (probably) the final encounter this evening, running this in parallel with HoDQ same players. I didn't restrict their choices either with character creation I don't think that upsets the balance much. There is always the possibility of a TPK if they take risks, or they are really unlucky, but on the whole I think the encounters are fine if you follow the advice on the numbers, but you can add a monster or two and you should be challenging them. The Dragon on the end, they are basically going to hit it fresh with most of their resources, so I am going to look at the hit point range a Young Dragon can have, my party is lv5 not 6 so I think switching it for an adult is a bit much but will see, they don't know its stats it's your Dragon adjust as required.
I ran DoIP for an experienced group last year. I did have to scale up encounters to make some of them more challenging. In addition, the plot of DoIP can be improved a bit by using some or all of the ideas from this article. I used them to help tie the plot together a bit better but how useful that would be depends on how much of the module you have already played. I didn't write the following but I found the ideas quite useful.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/comments/e77dmi/dragon_of_icespire_peak_revised/
This ties together the Anchorite of Talos plot lines. The lightning and thunder elements, the Tower of Storms and various other elements. The orcs can still be displaced by the dragon or you can have the orcs being used as servants of the dragon.
Cryovain becomes a young blue dragon which is significantly tougher than a young white dragon without being as deadly as an adult white dragon. My party still didn't have that much trouble with Cryovain as a young blue dragon but they would have mopped the floor with a young white dragon and since the dragon encounter is essentially the conclusion of the module it is more fun if it is a bit challenging.
You don't mention how many players you have which is more of a factor that what classes they are. 5e is quite a bit more balanced than previous editions so using content from other sources like the PHB, Xanathar's etc will not usually break the encounters, especially in tier 1. However, more characters is a huge factor. 3 vs 4 vs 6 represents increases of 33% to 100% in total party capability. It is definitely a factor in encounter balance. So if you have a relatively large party already you may want to reconsider adding an NPC ... and if the party is small but very effective, an NPC is likely to make them much more effective but also provide a buffer if things go sideways.
P.S. In terms of making encounters cautiously more difficult, it might be a good idea to use waves of attackers from time to time. If the party is having trouble delay, remove or make a subsequent wave weaker than you originally planned.
Thanks David, l will check that article out shortly, I'm not really that far in to the campaign, I took a few months off due to work commitments, and we're only just back to Phandalin after completing the first batch of 3 Quests.
There is 5 in the party all told... All level 3, bar the fighter who's still at 2... We also have three Spellcasters, (A War Wizard, A Light Cleric, A Moon Druid) and a Rogue.
Since writing the post this morning I've drilled into the DMG about balancing encounters and tried to analyse the next 2x Quests (ButterSkull ranch and Loggers Camp) to see how those encounters match up against the Party potential... The biggest hitter by far is the Cleric who can do a level 2 'inflict damage' spell that deals up to 40dam but only twice, then the Cleric with moonbeam which so long as they concentrate can inflict up to 24dam per turn, and of course they can wildshape into bears and stuff, so they're a bit of a wild card (no pun intended)...
(When analysing the individual potential of each PC, the DMG says to check the max damage possible per PC, cross reference their Saving throws and with that information consult the Challenge Rating table)
Checking that table against party level to determine the suggested CR for the encounter kind of makes sense, but by its own admission, whilst you can run some analysis and make judgements based on empirical information taken from your PCs characteristics, selecting the actual creatures to face off against those PCs, is an 'art form'
Nice.
So whilst I have a bit of an understanding of how to guage what creatures I could throw at them, that 'art form' choice means I can be left in quandary, it still feels more like sticking a pin in it, but I suppose there's at least there's some level of educated reasoning applied beforehand.
With all this mind, I've looked at the next quests and have come to the following conclusions.
I'm going to stick to the modules suggested quantities of ankhegs for now in the Loggers Camp, and I'm playing around with minion types based on the angrygm articles about minions for ButterSkull ranch and throw a mini-horde of goblins, plus Orcs, at the same time, albeit spread around the farmhouse, hiding or running around like crazy fools. The module suggests 3 times the amount of orcs, so in our case that'd be 15... But my minion gangs consist of 4x Goblins per gang... Each with a CR 1/4 rating... with 8x goblin gangs in total and 10 orcs (CR 1/2) loitering around...
If I'm reading the DMG tables correctly, having analysed the PCs I think that's a reasonably winnable but exciting encounter for them...
Plus theres a big pond outside and our wizard has a 'water bending' shape water cantrip which he'll no doubt use to drop water bubble helmets onto the orcs heads and drown them... (He came up with that all on his own, I couldn't not reward that creativity, so now it's part of his arsenal of attacks...)
So yeah. They'll be ok I reckon...
On the way to the Loggers Camp I might give them the option of finding the ruins of Cragmaw Castle, or not, I'm not sure yet... Whatever happens it's just for flavour/world building, knowing the events from LMoP took place the previous year, it might be nice to have some references to a battle there and maybe they uncover some treasure, or the opening to a mini abandoned dungeon crawl/mini monster bash session just to satisfy the kids craving for combat and give me some practice at running encounters...
Dunno yet.
I would strongly support this suggestion. I actually use this method in my own groups that I DM, since it gives you a lot more freedom of choice based on how well (or not) the players are doing in a particular battle. I usually have a main encounter designed for a particular situation, but my notes have X-amount of other things that show up a couple rounds later.
For example, the party is in the middle fighting a couple gnolls with four hyenas in an abandoned mine. Characters are high enough level that the encounter is fairly easy, and the good die rolls are making it fairly unchallenging. To compensate, I have an additional gnoll leading a hyena into the area a couple rounds later to investigate the ruckus being caused by the battle. Nothing earthshattering, but it replaces some of the easy kills that occurred in the first few rounds. If the players struggle or the dice are misbehaving, then I don't have to introduce anything that might make things go completely sideways.
When I'm really trying to balance encounters, I'll use the encounter builder and test it out. I have a test ground campaign in Roll20... and then I throw the party and the encounter on the map and then use Beyond20 to roll their stats, actions, saves, etc and really see what can happen. By now you probably have a good grasp of what they would do (but there will always be surprises). You can test out how lair actions or other legendary things impact how the play goes... then you can fine tune. Sometimes the bad guys just need more HP to make them more survivable but not more deadly. Test out what happens if they fly or if they stay grounded, etc. It still won't guarantee what will happen in the real fight, but it will give you a good feeling of what your party can bring against you when you throw down the Big Bad...
If I used a lot of references to things that didn't make sense in the above statement, let me know and I'll make some time later today to spell that out in more detail... and maybe link to some screenshots...
Thanks Javier - I think David added that PS after I’d read it...
I already use waves - I’m an ex video-games developer and I’m hooked to the idea of boss/sub boss battles - (it’s just how I think) - so the concept of wave based combat with triggers and behavioural changes is very familiar to me - in fact in DoIP campaign I’m running, the ‘When Orcs Attack’ encounter of the Dwarves Excavation quest that’s exactly what I did, with 3x Gangs of Goblins (12 individual goblin minions) and 3 Orcs, one of whom is a home-brew ‘orc gaffer’ (a mini boss orc) - based on angry GM’s Paragon system of layering up multiple orcs in one place, giving them hit point pools and having behaviour change based on which HP Pool they’re currently in... in this context, the gaffer was wearing Chain mail over hide armour, with 3pools of 15hp, when it enters the final pool, the Chainmail is effectively destroyed, so they their AC drops, but they also get angrier (Think Hulk) so they get an +1 turn per pool depleted to zero - so in essence whilst they get easier to hit, they can inflict more damage...
It worked fine... except I’d misjudged the players abilities, the wizard floored the first wave of goblins with earth tremor, incapacitating them long enough for them to be picked off by a couple of well placed arrows, one was garrotted with a thorn whip, and the last was stabbed by a pair of daggers (via a natty crit!). - triggering my second wave of orcs, both of whom we dispatched swiftly with one one getting a hit in on the Druid, who promptly wild shapes (combat wild shape) into a Brown Bear, the death of the 2nd orc triggered the third and final wave, the Orc Gaffer and another Gang of Goblins, who were all annihilated in one go with ice knife and associated splash damage (DMs fault for keeping the Goblins too close together) and then the poor old Gaffer, tried his best, managed to plunge his spear into the bear, but was swiftly surrounded and when he tried to run to find space, got torn to shreds by the Druid/Brown Bear... :/
The Kids enjoyed the encounter, but I had hoped there would be a bit more jeopardy... I think in hindsight I stuck to my plan hard fast rather than being flexible and adapting it accordingly, I suppose that’s the more judicious use of wave based combat, and in future I’ll be more prepared with perhaps as you say something else if it goes to easy... and the option of dropping that if it goes tits up... (If you pardon the expression)
Thanks for the input - it’s reassuring to know that I’m on the right lines - albeit in need of some tweaking.... :)
Thanks Grayfax, no that’s all clear...
...and that thought had occurred to me too... my problem is lack of time to test ideas other than in ‘live’ sessions, pus I don’t subscribe to Roll20 (I used to play on paper back in the day, and I’m happy to run stuff over video calls with online whiteboards, screen shares and hefty amount of notes in OneNote... plus my subs to DDB) - that said, I may set aside an afternoon to get to know the PCs and their abilities a bit more - it’s all a bit vague for me at the moment, and I’m relying on them being upfront about certain aspects of their characters abilities and sometimes I’m pretty sure that their interpretation of the rules isn’t quite on point... but, y’know, they’re kids, and it’s about having fun not being a rule nazi - plus, any questions raised I’ll flag in my notes and pick up between sessions by reviewing the various handbooks and any discrepancies get ironed out next session...
Thanks again, I appreciate the input - Although I’m new to this community and (sort of) new to Dnd (5e specifically) - I’m and an old timer when it comes to gaming interests in general...
Cheers
P. :)
Thanks, sorry missed this post - that’s really helpful... cheers. :)
No worries, Ranners. It sounds like you're already on the right track to finding a method that works well for you and your particular group. Just wanted to mention/emphasize David's suggestion, since it's a concept that some DMs don't necessarily think about...especially when they're using a published adventure. Not saying it's the right way to DM, since there's really no wrong way as long as everybody at the table is having fun, but it does work well to keep things challenging while still having enough of an "escape clause" if things aren't going well.
Personally, I've had to go both ways with that style numerous times. The wizard's fireball spell wiping out a dozen goblins in round one means that a little extra on round two or three keeps things engaging a little longer...Or, vice versa, an enemies attacks being a lot more effective means that they don't need a couple extra bodies to help out later. I just adjust accordingly so that my players feel like they've earned the victory (without most of them in the process).
Best wishes on refining your personal approaches and preferences, and keep up the good work keeping it fun for your group!
Hey... my first boxed set of D&D was red. I understand. Roll20 makes it easy for me (and I have a campaign that runs on it weekly, so I am familiar with the interface), but you can do the same thing with a whiteboard. Time is definitely the most difficult part for those of us that aren't teenagers anymore (or tweens or thirty somethings or what have ya)... but sounds like the right way to approach dealing with them. Also, I'm a strong proponent of knowing what your players can do. Not to beat them, but so that you spend less time at the table trying to figure something out and more time involved with the fight. Cause let's face it, rules don't often come into play with the roleplaying aspects... mostly it is the crunch of the fight that a curve-ball can bring an exciting moment to a slow grind in a hurry. In the end, though, having fun with the players is the single most important aspect... and getting to know them better is a bonus that happens naturally.
Overall, it sounds like you are doing fine. :)
A couple of things to keep in mind. You like using goblins which are glass cannons against a level 3 party. Each only has 7 hit points so even level 1AoE spells like earth tremor can be effective since on average it takes out 1/2 of their hit points if they fail the save. However, Earth tremor is within 10' of the caster and only the caster is unaffected so the caster has to run into the middle of the enemies to cast it without affecting their friends.
- AoE works pretty well against relatively weak opponents
- hit points matter - monsters remain fully effective until zero hit points - this means that low hit point targets like goblins are actually much easier once the party can deal a reasonable level of damage.
- numbers matter - combat in 5e revolves around action economy - any fight with 5 vs 2 is much much easier than 5 vs 4. The four creatures get 4 actions each round, the party gets 5. Even using waves, 2+2 is much easier than 4 at once again due to actions available. A party that easily defeats 2 orcs + 2orcs later could end up with unconscious or dead characters if faced with 4 orcs all at once.
- In your two goblin spell examples, you had all the goblins mostly eliminated by first an earth tremor and then by ice knife. They must have been very unlucky goblins. If your wizard has a 16 int then the spell DC is 13 and the goblins only need to roll an 11 to save against either spell (they have +2 dex). Neither spell does anything to the creature on a successful save so on average I'd have thought they would take out 1/2 the goblins in either case not all of them.
- at level 3 and 4, the moon druid in brown bear form is pretty much the most powerful melee combatant in the game. They have two attacks with a good to hit and exceptional damage for the level. The brown bear also has more hit points that most characters at this level and the moon druid can switch twice since changing is only a bonus action. (This balances out a lot at level 5).
- when assessing spell damage look at the average and not the maximum since that is the damage it will usually do. A level 2 inflict wounds will do 4d10 damage IF it hits. Chances of hitting are usually around 50% for level appropriate enemies. 4d10 will average 22 damage which is enough for an orc.
- the moon beam spell does an average of 11 (2d10) (save for 1/2) within a 10' square (5' radius from a grid point within range) but it doesn't take effect until the creature's turn so the creatures are likely to spread out to avoid it. In addition, it takes the druid's action to move it every turn. It is a good spell but the moon druid might well be doing more damage as a brown bear.
- do the characters have all their resources? If the party is always full of resources at the start of every combat then the fights will be much easier than when it is the second or third of the day and they have already used resources (this is also an element of encounter balance - a cleric with their second level spells slots is different from one without).
Finally, watch out for several of the encounters which can be a TPK under the wrong circumstances.
1) The Shrine of Savras as written has a decent chance to be a TPK against any party since the forces in the shrine scale up with party level and they are pretty nasty.
The scaling for level 2-3 for example is:
3 ores per character plus 2 ogres in the courtyard (area S2), 1 orc atop the northeast tower (area S6)
The orcs have a watcher in place keeping an eye out for creatures approaching so surprise isn't likely unless they come at night and the orcs still have darkvision. 15 orcs and 2 ogres is likely more than enough to wipe your party of 5 level 3s. When I ran DoIP - I left this one out altogether, the characters didn't end up following up on a couple of hints that were dropped.
2) Mountain Toe Gold Mine
The mine has been taken over by wererats. For a party of 5 this means at least 7 wererats. The problem? Wererats are immune to damage from normal weapons and there are only a few sources of magical weapons in the entire module (there also isn't much in the way of silvered weapons). The moon druid beast form attacks will be ineffective. The fighter won't be able to do anything unless they have found a magical weapon and each wererat has 33 hit points so even inflict wounds is unlikely to kill one - let alone 7.
Luckily the mine can be resolved using "peaceful" means but that doesn't work well for a party that likes to fight.
There are a couple of other spots where the balance can be off but I think those are the worst.
Thanks Again, David, some great advice there... I think I need to be more mindful of the Action Economy, not really got my head around that yet, but makes perfect sense, I’ve seen it discussed elsewhere on YT vids and so on, but you’ve helped clarify it well enough there for it to sink in... again, that old timer brain - sometimes I wish I was 30 years younger.
Having mentioned the sav rolls on the goblins... now I come to think about it... I’m embarrassed to admit that I might have forgotten to apply the Sav Mods... again, stupid old brain... #facepalm
Annoyingly, todays session was cancelled due to two of the players bailing last minute - I’m happy to DMPC one Character, but two... I may as well be playing with myself...
Again, thanks for the effort you’ve put in to replying in such detail, it really helps and I’m super grateful to be able to have this kind of dialogue with folks that remember the ‘red box’ - lol...