I'm DM'ing LMOP and the PCs are arriving into the Redbrand Hideout in Phandalin. One of the PCs is an elven Ranger with 17 WIS, that makes her passive perception is 15. Secret doors according to the adventure are DC of 15 if the PC comes around 10". As every room in the hideout are quite small, the chances this PC would find every door would be very easy.
Of course, having a 17 score it's not impossible for a LV 2 character (even a lv1 character), so I'm not sure it would make the encounters too easy. I get it that also it would be a little unfair to her not allowing her to make her PC shine.
I think I'd increase the required PP for finding doors but keeping it at 15 if the PCs search. Some of the easier ones should maybe stay at 15, though.
Yes, maybe I could modify them a bit (I'm particularly concerned on the ones close to Iarno). What I fear is being a bit unfair to the player. She envisioned a particularly wise and canny ranger, with very keen senses, so I can't stop feeling that I'm cheating her.
You can have a couple of them observable via passive perception. When the character finds them, you can also inform the character that some doors may be more hidden (or they are getting harder to find as the door builders got better). This way you as a DM can give information to the player that passive per may not be enough for this dungeon and some will need actual searches.
That being said, don't gate important information behind a skill check that can fail, or if you do, be prepared with another way to get that information to the party. A failure could be that it takes more time to find the door, and during that time reinforcements have arrived.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
I don't know the reason for secret doors in the campaign, but let the character get the benefit of the passive perception.
If the character isn't at the front of the party, then other characters will be walking past without noticing them - so possible ambushed from the door could still occur.
But passive perception won't always identify it immediately as a secret door. It might only indicate that something is odd about the wall, and allow the character to investigate it :)
Wasn't lost mine written before passive perception became an always on thing? If so I think you should bump the DC up 2 to account for the fact, the writers were thinking the player had to declare search for doors. Or you could allow most doors to stay at DC 15 for PP, and select a few doors and bump the DC 17 for PP.
You WANT the characters to find the secret doors. If they don't the dungeon grinds to a screeching halt. Let the elf find the doors if they are close to them and make a big deal about it to make them feel special.
Wasn't lost mine written before passive perception became an always on thing? If so I think you should bump the DC up 2 to account for the fact, the writers were thinking the player had to declare search for doors. Or you could allow most doors to stay at DC 15 for PP, and select a few doors and bump the DC 17 for PP.
The description is particularly clear:
Secret doors are made of stone and blend in with the surrounding walls. Spotting a secret door from a distance of no more than 10 feet without actively searching for it requires a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of 15 or higher, whereas a character who takes the time to search the wall can find the secret door with a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Perception) check. Secret doors swing open on hidden iron hinges and are not locked.
You WANT the characters to find the secret doors. If they don't the dungeon grinds to a screeching halt. Let the elf find the doors if they are close to them and make a big deal about it to make them feel special.
Yep, I know that by experience. The first time I played with another group, there wasn't any PC with PP 15, and they also didn't think of secret doors. They arrived trough the cellar, so the game was effectively halted xD. I don't recall how they continued even when was too obvious their entire lair couldn't be that small.
But passive perception won't always identify it immediately as a secret door. It might only indicate that something is odd about the wall, and allow the character to investigate it :)
I like this idea. It's strange that you could "perceive" or somehow know a secret door is there. I was thinking saying something like: "You notice the stones in the corner looks like are misaligned".
That being said, don't gate important information behind a skill check that can fail, or if you do, be prepared with another way to get that information to the party. A failure could be that it takes more time to find the door, and during that time reinforcements have arrived.
I normally let the players spent a lot of time "out-game" planning and discussing, but it's a good idea to press them a bit (in the cave they wanted to "short rest" after every combat).
The player invested their Attributes with a purpose of being perceptive. Give them the information, or give them the information with the flavor text like you mentioned. "You notice the stones seem odd in that location" or "There's a draft coming from the wall".
If a player is going to invest their Attributes, or ASIs, into making a character perceptive, they need to be rewarded for it. In some cases this means that they'll be able to bypass parts of the story because they found a short cut. In other cases it means they are sent off in the wrong direction, find a more dangerous location, or some other unpleasant result. Either way, they are being rewarded for their choice. By not giving them the information, by moving the goal further away, you are punishing them for making a choice that is built in to the game.
…the chances this PC would find every door would be very easy.
If I can be a little picky, the PCs are not actually finding doors - they are noticing physical signs that there might be a door. WIS (Perception) only lets you see/hear/feel/other. In technical terms, perception is about symtoms, not causes.
So, it is not, "You notice a door."
It is, "You notice some scratches on the floor and feel a breeze."
Now the PCs have to do some work to find out (1) if there is actually a door there, and (2) how to open it. This may involve an INT (Investigation) check.
I'm DM'ing LMOP and the PCs are arriving into the Redbrand Hideout in Phandalin. One of the PCs is an elven Ranger with 17 WIS, that makes her passive perception is 15. Secret doors according to the adventure are DC of 15 if the PC comes around 10". As every room in the hideout are quite small, the chances this PC would find every door would be very easy.
Of course, having a 17 score it's not impossible for a LV 2 character (even a lv1 character), so I'm not sure it would make the encounters too easy. I get it that also it would be a little unfair to her not allowing her to make her PC shine.
I think I'd increase the required PP for finding doors but keeping it at 15 if the PCs search. Some of the easier ones should maybe stay at 15, though.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Yes, maybe I could modify them a bit (I'm particularly concerned on the ones close to Iarno). What I fear is being a bit unfair to the player. She envisioned a particularly wise and canny ranger, with very keen senses, so I can't stop feeling that I'm cheating her.
You can have a couple of them observable via passive perception. When the character finds them, you can also inform the character that some doors may be more hidden (or they are getting harder to find as the door builders got better). This way you as a DM can give information to the player that passive per may not be enough for this dungeon and some will need actual searches.
That being said, don't gate important information behind a skill check that can fail, or if you do, be prepared with another way to get that information to the party. A failure could be that it takes more time to find the door, and during that time reinforcements have arrived.
"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
I don't know the reason for secret doors in the campaign, but let the character get the benefit of the passive perception.
If the character isn't at the front of the party, then other characters will be walking past without noticing them - so possible ambushed from the door could still occur.
But passive perception won't always identify it immediately as a secret door. It might only indicate that something is odd about the wall, and allow the character to investigate it :)
Wasn't lost mine written before passive perception became an always on thing? If so I think you should bump the DC up 2 to account for the fact, the writers were thinking the player had to declare search for doors. Or you could allow most doors to stay at DC 15 for PP, and select a few doors and bump the DC 17 for PP.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
You WANT the characters to find the secret doors. If they don't the dungeon grinds to a screeching halt. Let the elf find the doors if they are close to them and make a big deal about it to make them feel special.
The description is particularly clear:
Yep, I know that by experience. The first time I played with another group, there wasn't any PC with PP 15, and they also didn't think of secret doors. They arrived trough the cellar, so the game was effectively halted xD. I don't recall how they continued even when was too obvious their entire lair couldn't be that small.
I like this idea. It's strange that you could "perceive" or somehow know a secret door is there. I was thinking saying something like: "You notice the stones in the corner looks like are misaligned".
I normally let the players spent a lot of time "out-game" planning and discussing, but it's a good idea to press them a bit (in the cave they wanted to "short rest" after every combat).
The player invested their Attributes with a purpose of being perceptive. Give them the information, or give them the information with the flavor text like you mentioned. "You notice the stones seem odd in that location" or "There's a draft coming from the wall".
If a player is going to invest their Attributes, or ASIs, into making a character perceptive, they need to be rewarded for it. In some cases this means that they'll be able to bypass parts of the story because they found a short cut. In other cases it means they are sent off in the wrong direction, find a more dangerous location, or some other unpleasant result. Either way, they are being rewarded for their choice. By not giving them the information, by moving the goal further away, you are punishing them for making a choice that is built in to the game.
Live play, at the table Twitch stream.
Find out all about us at: www.dragonsinthediningroom.com
If I can be a little picky, the PCs are not actually finding doors - they are noticing physical signs that there might be a door. WIS (Perception) only lets you see/hear/feel/other. In technical terms, perception is about symtoms, not causes.
So, it is not, "You notice a door."
It is, "You notice some scratches on the floor and feel a breeze."
Now the PCs have to do some work to find out (1) if there is actually a door there, and (2) how to open it. This may involve an INT (Investigation) check.