I wondered what does a cleric of lawful good dwarven god, Gorm Gulthyn, comes across a temple to an evil dwarven god, Abbathor?
I noticed in the Dragon of Icespire, there is a temple of Abbathor, with dwarven skulls from dwarven sacrifices and a blood soaked altar.
My first instinct would be to destroy the altar, but would that not be appropriate? That could possibly bring the wrath of the evil god down on them? Interesting dilemma. Do they recognize it as being a sad choice, and that Abbathor already destroyed the temple, or do they feel the need to turn this into a good temple?
Depends on the player and how you run your game world but I generally agree that clerics would probably do something to further the goals of their deity. What that entails depends on the player and the god - could be defacing or destroying the old temple, could be trying to consecrate it to their god, could be funerary rights for any remains still there etc...
My group didn't have a cleric or go to this location when I ran DoIP, but if I were running this again I think this could be an interesting place to use something like the Ceremonyspell. In my experience its not really something that comes up in play, and I think it could be an interesting opportunity for a player to gain favor from their god. Not sure how since I haven't had to deal with this but I would reward my players for trying to integrate their deity more into play.
The cleric would not fear the wrath of Abbathor, as he is protected by his own divinity. So yes, he would probably cleanse the altar, grant a good resting place to the victims, etc. All part of the war that mortal servants of deities wage on their behalf on the material plane.
Thanks, would cleansing the altar involve a ceremony or spell? Since from the description, its far from just literall cleaning. :)
What that entails depends on the player and the god - could be defacing or destroying the old temple, could be trying to consecrate it to their god, could be funerary rights for any remains still there etc...
Thanks! This is a great suggestion. My group is a little short handed, so I have been running a personal character, dwarven cleric, as an npc for them to help fill out the group. I didnt expect DoIP to have as much dwarven aspects or shrines and temples as it does. I am trying not to focus on the cleric, but this particular temple seems to have an element that shouldn't be ignored.
The cleric would not fear the wrath of Abbathor, as he is protected by his own divinity. So yes, he would probably cleanse the altar, grant a good resting place to the victims, etc. All part of the war that mortal servants of deities wage on their behalf on the material plane.
Thanks, would cleansing the altar involve a ceremony or spell? Since from the description, its far from just literall cleaning. :)
It would be DM dependent, but for some options, depending on how deep you want to get into it. Hallow probably fits fairly well, but its a 5th level spell. You could just go with something like remove curse, or bless or ceremony, or a combination of them. By RAW, of course, those spells do not do what you are trying to do, but thematically, they could work and fit the idea of want you want to accomplish.
But with this being basically a DMPC, you probably don't want to take the focus off the players, so you could even just remove/destroy the trappings of the opponent god, sprinkle some holy water and recite some prayers to your god and call it good.
My first instinct would be to destroy the altar, but would that not be appropriate? That could possibly bring the wrath of the evil god down on them? Interesting dilemma. Do they recognize it as being a sad choice, and that Abbathor already destroyed the temple, or do they feel the need to turn this into a good temple?
That's an issue of worldbuilding, and thus really a question for the DM. It's possible that there's a truce between gods and you're not supposed to destroy rival gods' sanctuaries, or it could be your duty to destroy it, or it could be up to your discretion.
As for how you purify it, it's either under the effects of Hallow in which case you need to eliminate that spell, or it's Desecrated Ground and you can purify it in small areas with Ceremony or Holy Water (flask), or in batch with Hallow. Or both.
You should use this opportunity for the player to develop their character, as well as their religion. I am focusing more of the implications, less on the methods or physical results.
1: MORALS. Who says the PC has the right to destroy a sacred place belonging to a deity they don't agree with? A God is a god, and you aren't being rightous; you are destroying someone else's faith. Good or evil, whatever you may call it, religious "cleansings" have had terrible implications in the past. Multiple gods exist in this universe. People should be free to worship whoever they choose. Religious sacrifice can be a complicated thing. Research it, and see if you can find a meaning, or a reason below the surface the temple exists. Maybe even twist the story a bit to make it all a misunderstanding! Having your PC questioning their deity, morals, and beliefs is a big step for their roleplay.
2: CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. The character will have to think about what is right here, and make consequences. Maybe their god renounces them for doing it, maybe they approve of it. It all comes down to the nature of the god. After the event is done, make your PC reflect on their choice, maybe even make that part of their character's journey. Make this interesting.
In all: Think less about what the characters will do, and more about if what they are doing is right and how it will affect the story.
Thanks for the advise everyone. Because this is a group of new players, I think I will add a ceremony or blessing type action to it to help demonstrate how clerics can be played, but keep the focus on my npc to a minimum. Its odd, because, I didn't expect to find so many references in this module that would directly effect my DMpc/npc. There is an abandoned dwarven temple to an evil dwarven deity, a shrine that was destroyed, a windmill on top of hill with hill dwarf cairns, a dwarven stronghold with banshees and ghouls. I mean, come on, it feels almost like this module was built for a dwarven cleric! I wish I had known this before going with this module for the new players. I didn't pick that up at all reading the briefs on it and it wasn't until I started diving into prepping the different quests together that I saw the pattern. Although, maybe its just because I have a cleric I am seeing it in that light?
Thanks again! Awesome advise. Exactly what I was looking for.
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I wondered what does a cleric of lawful good dwarven god, Gorm Gulthyn, comes across a temple to an evil dwarven god, Abbathor?
I noticed in the Dragon of Icespire, there is a temple of Abbathor, with dwarven skulls from dwarven sacrifices and a blood soaked altar.
My first instinct would be to destroy the altar, but would that not be appropriate? That could possibly bring the wrath of the evil god down on them? Interesting dilemma. Do they recognize it as being a sad choice, and that Abbathor already destroyed the temple, or do they feel the need to turn this into a good temple?
Depends on the player and how you run your game world but I generally agree that clerics would probably do something to further the goals of their deity. What that entails depends on the player and the god - could be defacing or destroying the old temple, could be trying to consecrate it to their god, could be funerary rights for any remains still there etc...
My group didn't have a cleric or go to this location when I ran DoIP, but if I were running this again I think this could be an interesting place to use something like the Ceremony spell. In my experience its not really something that comes up in play, and I think it could be an interesting opportunity for a player to gain favor from their god. Not sure how since I haven't had to deal with this but I would reward my players for trying to integrate their deity more into play.
Thanks, would cleansing the altar involve a ceremony or spell? Since from the description, its far from just literall cleaning. :)
Thanks! This is a great suggestion. My group is a little short handed, so I have been running a personal character, dwarven cleric, as an npc for them to help fill out the group. I didnt expect DoIP to have as much dwarven aspects or shrines and temples as it does. I am trying not to focus on the cleric, but this particular temple seems to have an element that shouldn't be ignored.
It would be DM dependent, but for some options, depending on how deep you want to get into it. Hallow probably fits fairly well, but its a 5th level spell. You could just go with something like remove curse, or bless or ceremony, or a combination of them. By RAW, of course, those spells do not do what you are trying to do, but thematically, they could work and fit the idea of want you want to accomplish.
But with this being basically a DMPC, you probably don't want to take the focus off the players, so you could even just remove/destroy the trappings of the opponent god, sprinkle some holy water and recite some prayers to your god and call it good.
That's an issue of worldbuilding, and thus really a question for the DM. It's possible that there's a truce between gods and you're not supposed to destroy rival gods' sanctuaries, or it could be your duty to destroy it, or it could be up to your discretion.
As for how you purify it, it's either under the effects of Hallow in which case you need to eliminate that spell, or it's Desecrated Ground and you can purify it in small areas with Ceremony or Holy Water (flask), or in batch with Hallow. Or both.
You should use this opportunity for the player to develop their character, as well as their religion. I am focusing more of the implications, less on the methods or physical results.
1: MORALS. Who says the PC has the right to destroy a sacred place belonging to a deity they don't agree with? A God is a god, and you aren't being rightous; you are destroying someone else's faith. Good or evil, whatever you may call it, religious "cleansings" have had terrible implications in the past. Multiple gods exist in this universe. People should be free to worship whoever they choose. Religious sacrifice can be a complicated thing. Research it, and see if you can find a meaning, or a reason below the surface the temple exists. Maybe even twist the story a bit to make it all a misunderstanding! Having your PC questioning their deity, morals, and beliefs is a big step for their roleplay.
2: CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. The character will have to think about what is right here, and make consequences. Maybe their god renounces them for doing it, maybe they approve of it. It all comes down to the nature of the god. After the event is done, make your PC reflect on their choice, maybe even make that part of their character's journey. Make this interesting.
In all: Think less about what the characters will do, and more about if what they are doing is right and how it will affect the story.
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Thanks for the advise everyone. Because this is a group of new players, I think I will add a ceremony or blessing type action to it to help demonstrate how clerics can be played, but keep the focus on my npc to a minimum. Its odd, because, I didn't expect to find so many references in this module that would directly effect my DMpc/npc. There is an abandoned dwarven temple to an evil dwarven deity, a shrine that was destroyed, a windmill on top of hill with hill dwarf cairns, a dwarven stronghold with banshees and ghouls. I mean, come on, it feels almost like this module was built for a dwarven cleric! I wish I had known this before going with this module for the new players. I didn't pick that up at all reading the briefs on it and it wasn't until I started diving into prepping the different quests together that I saw the pattern. Although, maybe its just because I have a cleric I am seeing it in that light?
Thanks again! Awesome advise. Exactly what I was looking for.