So let's start by saying, I am well aware that this question breaks the RAW and would never actually happen BUUUUUUUUT. Someone brought up the idea of a character who was over level 20, and this got me thinking. How would one make that work? Like what does a level 21 Wizard get over a level 20? Would the increase continue to be linear? Or would it be like starting over again, IE: You get bonus max spell slots of your level 1 spells as if you were in fact just a level 1 wizard, continue with levels 22-40 at the same pace? Or is the balancing act here that you can't go past level 20 in a specific class, BUT you can hit level 20 in multiple classes? So a level 40 wizard/Barbarian would have all the benefits of both classes; but you can't have a level 40 wizard with access to tier 15 magic (what ever that would be), or a level 40 wizard with 2 castings of their tier 9 magic.
How would you balance feats / skill point increase levels? 10 bonus feats or 20 bonus skill points (or what ever combination of the two) really changes how those characters would be balanced.
That does indeed seem to be the running answer. It's quite sad. Perhaps I should pose such questions in the Homebrew/House Rules sub forum? Just worry i'll be met with the same answers.... Which would be even more sad, given that's what that whole sub forum is for (in theory)
The answer yo every one of your questions is: We don't know because it isn't in the rules.
completely false. per RAW in the actual dungeons masters guide. in the epic section...
From Epic Boons section...
Epic boons can also be used as a form of advancement, a way to provide greater power to characters who have no more levels to gain. With this approach, consider awarding one epic boon to each character for every 30,000 XP he or she earns above 355,000 XP.
again, this is all RAW ! still in the epic boon section, at the end...
ALTERNATIVES TO EPIC BOONS
You might decide to grant one of the following rewards to a 20th-level character, instead of awarding an epic boon. These two options can be awarded to a character more than once.
Ability Score Improvement. The character can increase one ability score by 2 or increase two ability scores by 1 each. The ability score can now be increased above 20, up to a maximum of 30.
New Feat. The character gains a new feat chosen by the player, but subject to your approval.
again, this is RAW. this is legit, but apparently beyond never made this into playability in their current sheet and have no intention of ever allowing higher level then 20. which sucks, cause this is RAW and yet they don't want to make the full books.
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The answer yo every one of your questions is: We don't know because it isn't in the rules.
completely false. per RAW in the actual dungeons masters guide. in the epic section...
From Epic Boons section...
Epic boons can also be used as a form of advancement, a way to provide greater power to characters who have no more levels to gain. With this approach, consider awarding one epic boon to each character for every 30,000 XP he or she earns above 355,000 XP.
again, this is all RAW ! still in the epic boon section, at the end...
again, this is RAW. this is legit, but apparently beyond never made this into playability in their current sheet and have no intention of ever allowing higher level then 20.
which sucks, cause this is RAW and yet they don't want to make the full books.
You are right that RAW, epic boons are RAW and for advancement after level 20 and also are RAW.
They aren't really class levels, don't make you higher than level 20, and don't answer any of the OP's questions. But it is relevant and should be mentioned.
It answers all the OPs questions. except what if a character is level 21.
basically they are saying that an effect (level up) in short, happens every 30,000 XP from that point on. it also answers the question, higher level... by RAW there is no higher level, but a character can still continue to grow better and better.
as for the highe rlevels... i did create a few characters that were level 30. i can tell you, adding a second class or a 4th class... literally makes the charcaters much much much stronger then anything you can see. exemple of 1 of my player at level 30 who literally just one shotted a tarrasque. so yeah, i can tell you... just keep with what the epic section tells you. i highly don't recommend adding more levels to classes.
aside from that... by RAW we can get better then level 20. which again, d&d beyond decided not to allow thisas we can't get higher then 20 in stats and we didn't have boons until recently. it would be easy for them to just add an infinite number of XP. leveling up wouldn't be there, but higher then 20 would yield the features, adding boon or ability scores. so i still don't know why they haven't done that easy one. but i guess the number of people who play higher then 20 are very minimal to begin with.
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As mentioned above, RAW has Epic Boons, ASI increases, and bonus feats as options. Additional feats are easy to add on DDB, ASIs are easy to do with a homebrew feat or by manually changing numbers, and you can even make the epic boons as homebrew feats to give your players (I did this the other day and I was able to recreate the correct effects in all of them, or all but one of them) - since DDB never incorporated post-20 play options. Which is a big shame.
I happen to have extremely recently been considering this, as the first campaign I ever ran finished at level 20, and the PCs continue to exist in the world after that story concluded to the point of actually showing up in subsequent campaigns as NPCs (which I usually allow the previous player to cameo as briefly instead of taking it on myself, if the player is in that group, though never for long enough to take the spotlight away from the party). I'm now considering an Epic-Level, post-20 campaign or mini-campaign using those PCs for interested players, though that won't be for a long time yet. So there are a few ideas actively on my mind.
An old idea is Gestalt characters, which is exactly one idea you posed - taking levels in multiple classes. I believe the original iteration said that every time you level, you gain a level in both chosen classes, but you could easily adjust this to say that you start gaining those new class levels post-20 if need be. My only problem with the idea of Gestalt-like characters is: "what if I don't want another class or it doesn't narratively make any sense for my character/the plot? What if I do want to be a level 40 godlike wizard?"
Within RAW, I love the idea of Epic Boons. They really emphasize the idea that level 20+ characters are nigh unto becoming gods. They might start gaining levels of divinity, which in some editions had their own unique effects depending upon the level that you could incorporate (such as being immune to Disintegrate or Sanctuary, being able to teleport at will, telepathic communication with any follower, etc).
One thing to consider is that unless you're prepared to homebrew a TON of creatures, it's going to be quite tricky to challenge level 20+ players. I've been there and done that, my players played out the final boss battles of that campaign freshly turned level 20, and it wasn't easy. It either becomes a slog of too many enemies that breaks turn economy, or becomes a slog fest of "we just have to keep dealing damage until it dies." If you can get creative with challenges and RP, such as adding other elements to combat (creatures with "phases" that change up the play throughout the fight, or by having multiple things going on during combat that the party must navigate, etc), then it'll work better, but at the end of the day you'll be homebrewing BBEGs without many resources to base them off of. As a result of all of this, post-20 play is largely RP focused.
Thus, whatever features a post-20 player gains will want to be more narrative- or RP-focused, in most cases, but keep linear things progressing (cantrips, spell slots, number of spells known, invocations, number of attacks per action, ASIs, proficiency bonuses, etc). After all, how much more does a godlike character actually need vs what they already have? What in the world changes as a direct result of the world having these all-powerful characters in them? What could possibly want to come up and challenge them that won't be automatically turned to ash? What is the story even going to be about? (Answer: their Ascension or Evolution into godhood, probably. Or even Devolution from newfound godhood; I've had an idea rattling around my head for a couple years now about a game that starts at level 20 and ends at level 1, where the party is actually losing levels for #PlotReasons, though the mechanics of how I'd do it have somewhat eluded me.)
I've many many thoughts on post-20 play and epic levels that I'm eager to work out.
What is the story even going to be about? (Answer: their Ascension or Evolution into godhood, probably. Or even Devolution from newfound godhood; I've had an idea rattling around my head for a couple years now about a game that starts at level 20 and ends at level 1, where the party is actually losing levels for #PlotReasons, though the mechanics of how I'd do it have somewhat eluded me.)
This would be a veeeeeeeery different idea, but... rather than straight devolution 20 to 1, maybe some time-hopping BBEG is trying to undo their original rise, so they have to jump back into themselves at lower levels to thwart him? Kind of a Quantum Leap sort of deal? Heck, if you really wanted to go wild with it, have the spell sending them back go wrong one trip and they have to be each other while reliving some crucial battle or negotiation than somehow isn't quite the same as they remember.
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What is the story even going to be about? (Answer: their Ascension or Evolution into godhood, probably. Or even Devolution from newfound godhood; I've had an idea rattling around my head for a couple years now about a game that starts at level 20 and ends at level 1, where the party is actually losing levels for #PlotReasons, though the mechanics of how I'd do it have somewhat eluded me.)
This would be a veeeeeeeery different idea, but... rather than straight devolution 20 to 1, maybe some time-hopping BBEG is trying to undo their original rise, so they have to jump back into themselves at lower levels to thwart him? Kind of a Quantum Leap sort of deal? Heck, if you really wanted to go wild with it, have the spell sending them back go wrong one trip and they have to be each other while reliving some crucial battle or negotiation than somehow isn't quite the same as they remember.
I don't know about playing each others' characters (that could get very squicky very quickly, even in my group which all have a lot of trust in each other), but the beginning? I absolutely adore this idea and am very likely to steal it for my own devious purposes. I hadn't even had a story idea yet for this, just the concept of "Devolution from near-godhood to nothing" as an inversion of typical play. I'm not even sure if it'd be fun.
Mechanically, there are a LOT of problems. How do you roll your HP? (Answer: use base HP instead, which my table doesn't do because rolling is more fun in our opinions, but that could answer that problem.) How do you manage spells for casters who learn and change spell out at level ups? How do you determine which feats and ASIs go? The easiest answer I've come up with yet other than "figure it out as you go" (which doesn't satisfy me) is to have all players make separate sheets for every single level that character has ever had. But then, the story of their ascension to those levels matter, because what they were going through is likely to dictate, at least for casters and for feats, what spells/feats/ASIs they take when, etc. So unless it's a game with level 20s who have played out a full campaign I've run with them before so we all know the biggest story beats, then we'd have to go through those stories together and as a group.
That said, this has suddenly given me an idea that corresponds with your initial idea. In my universe, time is singular and linear, but time travel is a HUGE theme in ALL of my games set in this particular homebrew world I've been working on and in for years. "Alternate timelines" don't exist based on my universe's laws of time travel. But what if, somehow, some being unraveled time and MADE alternate timelines exist, and now there are different level versions of these all-powerful characters going around that they need to jump between in order to solve the troubles of each timeline in order to fix it and wind it back up to how it should be? Hmm... Methinks I like this idea very much.
(Sorry for hijacking your thread for the above thinktanking OP! But maybe time shenanigans could play into post-20 play somehow?)
What is the story even going to be about? (Answer: their Ascension or Evolution into godhood, probably. Or even Devolution from newfound godhood; I've had an idea rattling around my head for a couple years now about a game that starts at level 20 and ends at level 1, where the party is actually losing levels for #PlotReasons, though the mechanics of how I'd do it have somewhat eluded me.)
This would be a veeeeeeeery different idea, but... rather than straight devolution 20 to 1, maybe some time-hopping BBEG is trying to undo their original rise, so they have to jump back into themselves at lower levels to thwart him? Kind of a Quantum Leap sort of deal? Heck, if you really wanted to go wild with it, have the spell sending them back go wrong one trip and they have to be each other while reliving some crucial battle or negotiation than somehow isn't quite the same as they remember.
Its easy to make games above level 20. my players stops at level 20 or near it, but they do appear in other campaigns as NPC or one shot characters. they have their own line of thoughts that players keep going for. their lives do not stop at 20th level, they still have things to do. and you have to realise that if they gained 20 levels, so are many other people. in my world its easy to go beyond 20. its called becomine an immortal, a demi-god. basically, once they reached that stage people f the universe noticed them, and are now aware of them. and believe me this gets complicated. some players starts to wage war against gods, others starts trying to conquer lands. reign order to the world. others just build a house and live their lives saying adventuring is over. i have others who created their own domains and are trying to expand it. all of those are crazy adventures that can still happen.
exemple... we did a 12 hour D&D marathon with 2 hour break for food. 2 of my players, were level 14 when their campaign ended, they wanted to raise cash to get a city of their own, build it. they decided to fight an ancien red dragon and get his hoard... 5 hours of fight later they had won and found it awesome. that was a one shot about 2 years after the end of that campaign. and from there we continued to play them here and there... now they are level 20. and they have their city, they have their school. they wanted, now they are managing them. last that hapenned... the girl wanted to play a one shot in the new group campaign... she wasn't part of it cause of job... she was there 2 weeks. she made a quest for them. her level 20 character who couldn't get into a consecrated temple required them to enter the temple and cleanse it from its evil ways. in truth she had made an illusion over the temple and changed it so it looked like an evil temple, but it was in truth a good temple for deities. eventually she convinced them to do it. they did, once they entered they realised she was the devil. she fought the level 20 angel that was in there while they fought the more reasonable acolytes of the solar. in the end she got what she wanted. the artifact within the consecrated temple. she left the temple in ruins, they left with a huge orned chest she had given them. plenty of bounty for them, a sour taste in their mouth.
those were just one shots. not campaign things... that same devil now is within that group, as in she is watching them. she is intrigued. she acts as an NPC and players interact with her. its all i have to say. my own NPCaka old player from another campaign is now level 30. 18 wizard 2 paladin with tons of stats and boons. and he roams the world. protecting it from outsiders like fiends and angels who tries to just conquer his world. he's not aware of them all, but he seeks them actively. so thats that still.
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aside from that... by RAW we can get better then level 20. which again, d&d beyond decided not to allow thisas we can't get higher then 20 in stats and we didn't have boons until recently. it would be easy for them to just add an infinite number of XP. leveling up wouldn't be there, but higher then 20 would yield the features, adding boon or ability scores. so i still don't know why they haven't done that easy one. but i guess the number of people who play higher then 20 are very minimal to begin with.
DDB has said multiple times that they're working on adding the post-20 ASI & feats (which can already be added manually, btw). Of course, post-20 progression is OPTIONAL, not core. This is reflected in the PHB only having progression through lv20 in the "Levels After 1st" table, and the wording in the DMG that specifically states that the DM can (not should, must, or does) award one of the OPTIONS between ASI, Boons, & Feats.
Per the DMG:
An epic boon is a special power available only to 20th level characters. Characters at that level gain such boons only if you want them to and only when you feel it’s appropriate.
DDB isn't refusing to do anything; they're just not prioritising an optional rule for a tiny handful of users when there are other, more important/more demanded features on the list.
If they made levels from 21-1000, there would just be another thread asking "What about levels over 1000?"
Since there aren't any monsters, modules or challenges written for players over 20th level, it would require pure homebrewing so why wouldn't you want to homebrew character advancement too?
aside from that... by RAW we can get better then level 20. which again, d&d beyond decided not to allow thisas we can't get higher then 20 in stats and we didn't have boons until recently. it would be easy for them to just add an infinite number of XP. leveling up wouldn't be there, but higher then 20 would yield the features, adding boon or ability scores. so i still don't know why they haven't done that easy one. but i guess the number of people who play higher then 20 are very minimal to begin with.
DDB has said multiple times that they're working on adding the post-20 ASI & feats (which can already be added manually, btw). Of course, post-20 progression is OPTIONAL, not core. This is reflected in the PHB only having progression through lv20 in the "Levels After 1st" table, and the wording in the DMG that specifically states that the DM can (not should, must, or does) award one of the OPTIONS between ASI, Boons, & Feats.
Per the DMG:
An epic boon is a special power available only to 20th level characters. Characters at that level gain such boons only if you want them to and only when you feel it’s appropriate.
DDB isn't refusing to do anything; they're just not prioritising an optional rule for a tiny handful of users when there are other, more important/more demanded features on the list.
since most people never go beyond level 11. considering their data is all about level 1 to 11. then why did they even lose time and money developping beyond level 11 ? your argument doesn't hold up because tof that fact, they also developped a lot of things players didn't ask for. they also developped things for minorities...
reality being, they are developping what "THEY" want, not what the official content does. of course they give us a bit of attention in order to et things done, but that ammount they are giving us, as no bearing on what will truly happen. the best exemple of that is how long it is to develop omehting most people wanted for. complete character class. if they were designing what people wanted, we'd be having full on clas, real homebrew and most of all, a way better character level up system.
again, i understand the point of ignoring optionnal rules... but may they be optionnal or not is not a good reason... fact of the matter is... they are supposed to devleop the books. they are literally paid to give book content to us. yet the basic books are still not 100% availlable to us. while other more less important books, are 100% done already.
thats the point i'm making... PHB, Monster Manual (including templates) and DMG should have been completed first. after all, they are the ones players use the most. yet there are tons of stuff, after 5 years that are still not done yet in those books.
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If they made levels from 21-1000, there would just be another thread asking "What about levels over 1000?"
Exactly my response every time this comes up.
i mean i can see a bit of an argument for a PC/NPC, who never ages past a certain point, to be able to reach level 280 with the only major issue being their insanely huge health pool. But i am curious what a caster with access to level 9+ magic would look like / how you balance spell slots when a character exceed level 20 in a give roll.
If they made levels from 21-1000, there would just be another thread asking "What about levels over 1000?"
Exactly my response every time this comes up.
i mean i can see a bit of an argument for a PC/NPC, who never ages past a certain point, to be able to reach level 280 with the only major issue being their insanely huge health pool. But i am curious what a caster with access to level 9+ magic would look like / how you balance spell slots when a character exceed level 20 in a give roll.
As people are saying, because there is no official way (other than just the ASI/feats), you'd have to homebrew it. So it would be whatever the people homebrewing think it should be. Personally, if I were to homebrew level 21+ spellcating classes, I would keep the progression going as it goes before level 20, where you get a new level of spell every odd numbered level. So you'd get 10th level spells at level 21, 11th at 23, 12th at 25, and 13th 27. I'd leave out 29 though, because 19 is left out.
I'm pretty new to dnd and was interested in this topic, but instead of having characters going over level 20, what if you were able to use your character's exp pool to "buy" things from your subclasses. For example, a level 10 Sorceror/level 10 Warlock spends their extra exp on Mystic Arcanum 6th level. So basically you could buy the class features for the next level with exp, but you have to buy the previous class feature (buying the level 10 class feature before the level 11 one, etc...) That would still be unbalanced but I just wanted to think about a way to get the best of both classes with the restrictions of the max level being 20. Any thoughts on how balanced/how to balance this?
Level 20s are basically demi-gods. They are able to take down some of the most powerful NPCs in the multiverse. Going beyond level 20 would require that the great powers take notice. A good character would be seen as a threat by the demon princes and devil lords. An evil character would have a celestial host on their tail (as well as denizens of the lower planes due to their paranoia).
The story line would need to be something like the FR Avatar series, where the many of the main characters literally attained godhood.
The problem with the Epic boon system is it doesn't really do that much. "Oh look my character is immortal" that can be done any variety of ways with a spell caster. I have been playing this game for many different versions for over 30 years and the one thing I have found form a party that is dedicated they want more. The DM has the right5 to cap at 20 and call that good. Give them a kingdom and vassals and let them retire, but why would a 20th Level Wizard that has the ability to live forever not hunt down the most elusive of spells maybe in the hands of a lesser God. He would need a party, but he isn't going to take a bunch of reg tag no nothings. He would take a party he trusts.
To keep this short. It is, as DM's, our part to create more for them. Again, this is my opinion.
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So let's start by saying, I am well aware that this question breaks the RAW and would never actually happen BUUUUUUUUT. Someone brought up the idea of a character who was over level 20, and this got me thinking. How would one make that work? Like what does a level 21 Wizard get over a level 20? Would the increase continue to be linear? Or would it be like starting over again, IE: You get bonus max spell slots of your level 1 spells as if you were in fact just a level 1 wizard, continue with levels 22-40 at the same pace? Or is the balancing act here that you can't go past level 20 in a specific class, BUT you can hit level 20 in multiple classes? So a level 40 wizard/Barbarian would have all the benefits of both classes; but you can't have a level 40 wizard with access to tier 15 magic (what ever that would be), or a level 40 wizard with 2 castings of their tier 9 magic.
How would you balance feats / skill point increase levels? 10 bonus feats or 20 bonus skill points (or what ever combination of the two) really changes how those characters would be balanced.
The answer yo every one of your questions is: We don't know because it isn't in the rules.
That does indeed seem to be the running answer. It's quite sad. Perhaps I should pose such questions in the Homebrew/House Rules sub forum? Just worry i'll be met with the same answers.... Which would be even more sad, given that's what that whole sub forum is for (in theory)
completely false. per RAW in the actual dungeons masters guide. in the epic section...
again, this is all RAW !
still in the epic boon section, at the end...
again, this is RAW. this is legit, but apparently beyond never made this into playability in their current sheet and have no intention of ever allowing higher level then 20.
which sucks, cause this is RAW and yet they don't want to make the full books.
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which sucks, cause this is RAW and yet they don't want to make the full books.
You are right that RAW, epic boons are RAW and for advancement after level 20 and also are RAW.
They aren't really class levels, don't make you higher than level 20, and don't answer any of the OP's questions. But it is relevant and should be mentioned.
It answers all the OPs questions. except what if a character is level 21.
basically they are saying that an effect (level up) in short, happens every 30,000 XP from that point on.
it also answers the question, higher level... by RAW there is no higher level, but a character can still continue to grow better and better.
as for the highe rlevels... i did create a few characters that were level 30.
i can tell you, adding a second class or a 4th class... literally makes the charcaters much much much stronger then anything you can see. exemple of 1 of my player at level 30 who literally just one shotted a tarrasque. so yeah, i can tell you... just keep with what the epic section tells you. i highly don't recommend adding more levels to classes.
aside from that...
by RAW we can get better then level 20.
which again, d&d beyond decided not to allow thisas we can't get higher then 20 in stats and we didn't have boons until recently.
it would be easy for them to just add an infinite number of XP. leveling up wouldn't be there, but higher then 20 would yield the features, adding boon or ability scores.
so i still don't know why they haven't done that easy one. but i guess the number of people who play higher then 20 are very minimal to begin with.
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As mentioned above, RAW has Epic Boons, ASI increases, and bonus feats as options. Additional feats are easy to add on DDB, ASIs are easy to do with a homebrew feat or by manually changing numbers, and you can even make the epic boons as homebrew feats to give your players (I did this the other day and I was able to recreate the correct effects in all of them, or all but one of them) - since DDB never incorporated post-20 play options. Which is a big shame.
I happen to have extremely recently been considering this, as the first campaign I ever ran finished at level 20, and the PCs continue to exist in the world after that story concluded to the point of actually showing up in subsequent campaigns as NPCs (which I usually allow the previous player to cameo as briefly instead of taking it on myself, if the player is in that group, though never for long enough to take the spotlight away from the party). I'm now considering an Epic-Level, post-20 campaign or mini-campaign using those PCs for interested players, though that won't be for a long time yet. So there are a few ideas actively on my mind.
An old idea is Gestalt characters, which is exactly one idea you posed - taking levels in multiple classes. I believe the original iteration said that every time you level, you gain a level in both chosen classes, but you could easily adjust this to say that you start gaining those new class levels post-20 if need be. My only problem with the idea of Gestalt-like characters is: "what if I don't want another class or it doesn't narratively make any sense for my character/the plot? What if I do want to be a level 40 godlike wizard?"
Within RAW, I love the idea of Epic Boons. They really emphasize the idea that level 20+ characters are nigh unto becoming gods. They might start gaining levels of divinity, which in some editions had their own unique effects depending upon the level that you could incorporate (such as being immune to Disintegrate or Sanctuary, being able to teleport at will, telepathic communication with any follower, etc).
One thing to consider is that unless you're prepared to homebrew a TON of creatures, it's going to be quite tricky to challenge level 20+ players. I've been there and done that, my players played out the final boss battles of that campaign freshly turned level 20, and it wasn't easy. It either becomes a slog of too many enemies that breaks turn economy, or becomes a slog fest of "we just have to keep dealing damage until it dies." If you can get creative with challenges and RP, such as adding other elements to combat (creatures with "phases" that change up the play throughout the fight, or by having multiple things going on during combat that the party must navigate, etc), then it'll work better, but at the end of the day you'll be homebrewing BBEGs without many resources to base them off of. As a result of all of this, post-20 play is largely RP focused.
Thus, whatever features a post-20 player gains will want to be more narrative- or RP-focused, in most cases, but keep linear things progressing (cantrips, spell slots, number of spells known, invocations, number of attacks per action, ASIs, proficiency bonuses, etc). After all, how much more does a godlike character actually need vs what they already have? What in the world changes as a direct result of the world having these all-powerful characters in them? What could possibly want to come up and challenge them that won't be automatically turned to ash? What is the story even going to be about? (Answer: their Ascension or Evolution into godhood, probably. Or even Devolution from newfound godhood; I've had an idea rattling around my head for a couple years now about a game that starts at level 20 and ends at level 1, where the party is actually losing levels for #PlotReasons, though the mechanics of how I'd do it have somewhat eluded me.)
I've many many thoughts on post-20 play and epic levels that I'm eager to work out.
This would be a veeeeeeeery different idea, but... rather than straight devolution 20 to 1, maybe some time-hopping BBEG is trying to undo their original rise, so they have to jump back into themselves at lower levels to thwart him? Kind of a Quantum Leap sort of deal? Heck, if you really wanted to go wild with it, have the spell sending them back go wrong one trip and they have to be each other while reliving some crucial battle or negotiation than somehow isn't quite the same as they remember.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I don't know about playing each others' characters (that could get very squicky very quickly, even in my group which all have a lot of trust in each other), but the beginning? I absolutely adore this idea and am very likely to steal it for my own devious purposes. I hadn't even had a story idea yet for this, just the concept of "Devolution from near-godhood to nothing" as an inversion of typical play. I'm not even sure if it'd be fun.
Mechanically, there are a LOT of problems. How do you roll your HP? (Answer: use base HP instead, which my table doesn't do because rolling is more fun in our opinions, but that could answer that problem.) How do you manage spells for casters who learn and change spell out at level ups? How do you determine which feats and ASIs go? The easiest answer I've come up with yet other than "figure it out as you go" (which doesn't satisfy me) is to have all players make separate sheets for every single level that character has ever had. But then, the story of their ascension to those levels matter, because what they were going through is likely to dictate, at least for casters and for feats, what spells/feats/ASIs they take when, etc. So unless it's a game with level 20s who have played out a full campaign I've run with them before so we all know the biggest story beats, then we'd have to go through those stories together and as a group.
That said, this has suddenly given me an idea that corresponds with your initial idea. In my universe, time is singular and linear, but time travel is a HUGE theme in ALL of my games set in this particular homebrew world I've been working on and in for years. "Alternate timelines" don't exist based on my universe's laws of time travel. But what if, somehow, some being unraveled time and MADE alternate timelines exist, and now there are different level versions of these all-powerful characters going around that they need to jump between in order to solve the troubles of each timeline in order to fix it and wind it back up to how it should be? Hmm... Methinks I like this idea very much.
(Sorry for hijacking your thread for the above thinktanking OP! But maybe time shenanigans could play into post-20 play somehow?)
Its easy to make games above level 20.
my players stops at level 20 or near it, but they do appear in other campaigns as NPC or one shot characters. they have their own line of thoughts that players keep going for. their lives do not stop at 20th level, they still have things to do. and you have to realise that if they gained 20 levels, so are many other people. in my world its easy to go beyond 20. its called becomine an immortal, a demi-god. basically, once they reached that stage people f the universe noticed them, and are now aware of them. and believe me this gets complicated. some players starts to wage war against gods, others starts trying to conquer lands. reign order to the world. others just build a house and live their lives saying adventuring is over. i have others who created their own domains and are trying to expand it. all of those are crazy adventures that can still happen.
exemple...
we did a 12 hour D&D marathon with 2 hour break for food.
2 of my players, were level 14 when their campaign ended, they wanted to raise cash to get a city of their own, build it. they decided to fight an ancien red dragon and get his hoard... 5 hours of fight later they had won and found it awesome. that was a one shot about 2 years after the end of that campaign. and from there we continued to play them here and there... now they are level 20. and they have their city, they have their school. they wanted, now they are managing them. last that hapenned... the girl wanted to play a one shot in the new group campaign... she wasn't part of it cause of job... she was there 2 weeks. she made a quest for them. her level 20 character who couldn't get into a consecrated temple required them to enter the temple and cleanse it from its evil ways. in truth she had made an illusion over the temple and changed it so it looked like an evil temple, but it was in truth a good temple for deities. eventually she convinced them to do it. they did, once they entered they realised she was the devil. she fought the level 20 angel that was in there while they fought the more reasonable acolytes of the solar. in the end she got what she wanted. the artifact within the consecrated temple. she left the temple in ruins, they left with a huge orned chest she had given them. plenty of bounty for them, a sour taste in their mouth.
those were just one shots. not campaign things...
that same devil now is within that group, as in she is watching them. she is intrigued. she acts as an NPC and players interact with her.
its all i have to say. my own NPCaka old player from another campaign is now level 30. 18 wizard 2 paladin with tons of stats and boons. and he roams the world. protecting it from outsiders like fiends and angels who tries to just conquer his world. he's not aware of them all, but he seeks them actively. so thats that still.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
DDB has said multiple times that they're working on adding the post-20 ASI & feats (which can already be added manually, btw). Of course, post-20 progression is OPTIONAL, not core. This is reflected in the PHB only having progression through lv20 in the "Levels After 1st" table, and the wording in the DMG that specifically states that the DM can (not should, must, or does) award one of the OPTIONS between ASI, Boons, & Feats.
Per the DMG:
DDB isn't refusing to do anything; they're just not prioritising an optional rule for a tiny handful of users when there are other, more important/more demanded features on the list.
If they made levels from 21-1000, there would just be another thread asking "What about levels over 1000?"
Since there aren't any monsters, modules or challenges written for players over 20th level, it would require pure homebrewing so why wouldn't you want to homebrew character advancement too?
since most people never go beyond level 11. considering their data is all about level 1 to 11. then why did they even lose time and money developping beyond level 11 ?
your argument doesn't hold up because tof that fact, they also developped a lot of things players didn't ask for.
they also developped things for minorities...
reality being, they are developping what "THEY" want, not what the official content does.
of course they give us a bit of attention in order to et things done, but that ammount they are giving us, as no bearing on what will truly happen.
the best exemple of that is how long it is to develop omehting most people wanted for. complete character class. if they were designing what people wanted, we'd be having full on clas, real homebrew and most of all, a way better character level up system.
again, i understand the point of ignoring optionnal rules... but may they be optionnal or not is not a good reason...
fact of the matter is... they are supposed to devleop the books. they are literally paid to give book content to us.
yet the basic books are still not 100% availlable to us.
while other more less important books, are 100% done already.
thats the point i'm making... PHB, Monster Manual (including templates) and DMG should have been completed first. after all, they are the ones players use the most.
yet there are tons of stuff, after 5 years that are still not done yet in those books.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Exactly my response every time this comes up.
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
i mean i can see a bit of an argument for a PC/NPC, who never ages past a certain point, to be able to reach level 280 with the only major issue being their insanely huge health pool. But i am curious what a caster with access to level 9+ magic would look like / how you balance spell slots when a character exceed level 20 in a give roll.
As people are saying, because there is no official way (other than just the ASI/feats), you'd have to homebrew it. So it would be whatever the people homebrewing think it should be. Personally, if I were to homebrew level 21+ spellcating classes, I would keep the progression going as it goes before level 20, where you get a new level of spell every odd numbered level. So you'd get 10th level spells at level 21, 11th at 23, 12th at 25, and 13th 27. I'd leave out 29 though, because 19 is left out.
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
I'm pretty new to dnd and was interested in this topic, but instead of having characters going over level 20, what if you were able to use your character's exp pool to "buy" things from your subclasses. For example, a level 10 Sorceror/level 10 Warlock spends their extra exp on Mystic Arcanum 6th level. So basically you could buy the class features for the next level with exp, but you have to buy the previous class feature (buying the level 10 class feature before the level 11 one, etc...) That would still be unbalanced but I just wanted to think about a way to get the best of both classes with the restrictions of the max level being 20. Any thoughts on how balanced/how to balance this?
Level 20s are basically demi-gods. They are able to take down some of the most powerful NPCs in the multiverse. Going beyond level 20 would require that the great powers take notice. A good character would be seen as a threat by the demon princes and devil lords. An evil character would have a celestial host on their tail (as well as denizens of the lower planes due to their paranoia).
The story line would need to be something like the FR Avatar series, where the many of the main characters literally attained godhood.
The problem with the Epic boon system is it doesn't really do that much. "Oh look my character is immortal" that can be done any variety of ways with a spell caster. I have been playing this game for many different versions for over 30 years and the one thing I have found form a party that is dedicated they want more. The DM has the right5 to cap at 20 and call that good. Give them a kingdom and vassals and let them retire, but why would a 20th Level Wizard that has the ability to live forever not hunt down the most elusive of spells maybe in the hands of a lesser God. He would need a party, but he isn't going to take a bunch of reg tag no nothings. He would take a party he trusts.
To keep this short. It is, as DM's, our part to create more for them. Again, this is my opinion.