The effects and crafting time of vanilla D&D are frankly terrible and nonsensical. I'm playing as assassin and I'm trying to come up with homebrew poison rules to present to my DM. We both agree book rules aren't good for poison, so I wondering if anyone had any good rules they used in their games that made PC poison use viable. Any help would be appreciated.
During downtime between adventures a character can use the crafting rules in the Player's Handbook to create basic poison if the character has proficiency with a poisoner's kit. At your discretion the character can create other kinds of poison. Not all poison ingredients are available for purchase, and tracking down certain ingredients might form the basis of an entire adventure. (DMG p.258, emphasis mine)
Additionally, from the DMG - you don't need to craft poison - you can harvest it.
A character can instead attempt to harvest poison from a poisonous creature, such as a snake, wyvern, or carrion crawler. The creature must be incapacitated or dead, and the harvesting requires 1d6 minutes followed by a DC 20 Intelligence (Nature) check. (Proficiency with the poisoner’s kit applies to this check if the character doesn’t have proficiency in Nature.)
So, being truthful, you do have ways that don't need spending 30 days to make some poison, but you can instead bonk a Purple Worm and spend an average of 3-4 minutes to get that - the thing will be having your DM shift monsters to ones that can give poison around.
Additionally, the Poisoner feat.
- You gain proficiency with the Poisoner's Kit if you don't already have it. With one hour of work using a poisoner's kit and expending 50 gp worth of materials, you can create a number of doses of potent poison equal to your proficiency bonus. Once applied to a weapon or piece of ammunition, the poison retains its potency for 1 minute or until you hit with the weapon or ammunition. When a creature takes damage from the coated weapon or ammunition, that creature must succeed on a DC 14 Constitution saving throw or take 2d8 poison damage and become poisoned until the end of your next turn.
So, being honest - spending a horrible amount of time? I don't see where you need such a thing.
Basic poison shouldn't take that long or cost that much. Sure, it can be harvested from monsters, but there's no good reason for poison outside of that to be that obtuse or useless. Poison is nowhere as effective in D&D as in real life. to the point of defying all logic. I shouldn't have to work around the rules or do one specific thing because the rest is terribly designed.
I'm not sure how you know the effectiveness of poisons in real life....
Poisons inflict conditions, they can also add a small damage die on injury. The poisoned condition is fairly debilitating if you can get it to land and stick. Unconscious is worse. Basic Poison runs a cool 100gp in the PHB. Of course, as a member of the Assassins Guild, you might get it for a steal... or maybe in exchange for a job. When you get into higher level poisons the conditions get bigger and the add-on damage gets more lethal. Access to that much lethality to early in game can cause issues for your DM to balance out to ensure they don't kill your beloved Assassin too easily. Maybe try looking at this from the other side of the coin, how would you feel if every kobold, goblin or low level NPC hit you with a poisoned weapon? How about one that was coated with Drow Poison? Purple Worm Poison?
D&D wasn't built as a game about being a guild merchant or the realms greatest crafter of things. The premise of the game is that you are an adventurer, hero or not, but adventurer. In order for you to have an item someone has to first make it - be it you, a creature, or a merchant - which takes time, sometimes a lot of time. Then the item needs to change hands - lawfully, unlawfully, or by force - this can be dangerous or just expensive. Once you have said item in your inventory, you can use it to your hearts content. Long story short, the more powerful an item, the longer the cost or the greater the risk associated with obtaining it. If losing time is a risk to you, so be it. Make your choices according to your risk decisions.
Homebrewing poison rules to use in your game is literally working around the rules. I'm sure you tried our old friend Google. When I used it I had a homebrewed set of rules on my screen within a matter of moments that, as a DM, I could use as a framework should I choose to. Take a stroll through the homebrew items here on DDB, maybe someone has already created what you are looking for. Ask your DM for a Dagger of Venom. There are methods to get what you want to accomplish without scrambling the code so-to-speak, or demanding someone give you the Staples Easy Button.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I mean - talk to Wizards and their limited spells but the fact that they could learn more if you gave them more scrolls - in fact, literally any ranged characther if you actually make ammo be lost - you have to be ready to supply on sensical ways the things that fuel them - and well, you may say that "poison" is uneffective, but think about this. On real life, our stat-block is quite much that of a commoner - and cheap poison does what, 2d6? Basic poison can outright kill you - which jokingly enough, doesn't happen on real life, unless the poison is designed to do so.
Basic poison shouldn't take that long or cost that much. Sure, it can be harvested from monsters, but there's no good reason for poison outside of that to be that obtuse or useless. Poison is nowhere as effective in D&D as in real life. to the point of defying all logic. I shouldn't have to work around the rules or do one specific thing because the rest is terribly designed.
How is it not effective?
A commoner has 4 hit points. That's you, in the real world. So any ingested or contact poison that deals 1d4 points of poison damage is lethal one time in 4. 85%-90% of dogs survive getting bitten by a rattlesnake, so that's more powerful than rattlesnake venom.
What are you hoping to accomplish with poisons? Basic poison is pretty powerful - a DC10 Con save or the target suffers 1d4 bonus damage. There's a need for the CON save or every adventurer will use poison, basically adding 2.5 damage to their attacks (better than the Duelling fighting style that Fighters/Paladins etc. get). Once you start producing your own poisons, you should expect that you will be making them for your team mates as well. They benefit everyone, not just the poison maker.
The main things for you and your DM to think about are:
Poisons that add poison damage immediately are just bonus damage, and directly power you up. For game balance, this should be avoided. This is why the Basic Poison has an easy to make Con save and a high gold cost.
If poisons are simple to make or cheap, why isn't everyone using poisons? 100gp for a basic poison puts it out of the range of commoners, for instance.
How toxic does something have to be to make it more dangerous than getting stabbed in the chest with a dagger?
Most actual venoms and poisons cause debilitating effects, nerve damage and death over a period of time far outside of a D&D combat encounter. If you want any kind of realism to your poisons, they should have delayed effects.
What really fun things can you do with poisons outside of combat, rather than just aiming for bonus damage?
Many poisons require treatment or they have serious effects. Basic poison costs too much to actually be worth the cost. It's already an okay at best bonus because of the 10 CON save.
Many poisons that are handcrafted, like Ricin, are incredibly hard to survive, and while not immediate death, do kill you. Ingested poisons are weak and overpriced for what they do. We can make potions that heal you instantly, it stands to reason poisons would be scaled up effectively, or at least as effective. I get poison as an illegal substance being harder to get your hands on, but as an assassin it doesn't make sense for it almost impossible to make with the right equipment (poisoner's kit). And no one is trying to kill a commoner like that. 1d4 is not a big combat bonus, and considering it has to be readied and you need to be trained to apply it safely if I recall right. I never said poison needs to be immediate, it just needs to be a bit more effective and not purely made for NPCs as it is now. If I can poison someone's food, I'm not gonna be poisoning a commoner. It'll be someone else. It should be possible probably kill someone is such a manner. Injury poisons obviously may not be as effective, but other kinds have more reasons to be lethal. I get they shouldn't be over-powered, but they also should not be a horrible use of time and resources for a small small bonus. Making poison also doesn't take a month.
cheap poison does what, 2d6? Basic poison can outright kill you - which jokingly enough, doesn't happen on real life, unless the poison is designed to do so.
No poison is cheap, it's all incredibly expensive, and the cheapest does 1d4 if you fail a 10 CON save. And for purposes of the game, commoners aren't really relevant to the discussion.
Found that floating about on the CDC website, so for context, the weaker (naturally occurring) strain can cause injury, to make it more potent you would have to refine it. Survivable in it's natural state, but just like anything else used in excess, it becomes deadly. So far, the analog between our physical universe and the in game universe are holding somewhat in line.
Point here is, again, if you spend the time to harvest, craft or collect the substance, you're not an adventurer. You're an NPC at this point. Sure, burning downtime to make some mundane items, maybe a potion of healing is understandable. I could see how, and have had, a crafting session in preparation for a large combat encounter that the PCs are planning. This is the exception, not the rule.
From your OP, I gathered two main purposes for wanting to homebrew these - 1) As a player, you want easy and readily available access to a combat modifier and are frustrated that your options are limited. 2) You feel constrained by the vague (see also: missing) guidelines about crafting an item (particularly poison) in game. This is where you and your DM come in. Pointing out that there is something missing, or applying your subjective opinion as fact doesn't solve your problem. Come up with a reason in game that allows your character a reasonable access point to this item. Work it out with your DM for you to go on a monster hunt to find this mystical death juice that will end anyone with a scratch from your signet ring. Maybe try turning this into a character goal, something for your character to grow towards. Going out on a limb here, but is it possible that your DM doesn't want this item to be prolific in their world or easily obtained by the PCs and NPCs?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I mean, you can literally spend 50 gp to get a DC 14 Con for 2d8 damage poison with a feat up to six doses - I'd think that is relatively cheap compared with other items. And for the sake of the game - you may say commoners are irrelevant, but are what define the standards for that. But consider that if poison is easily accessible and easy to slap in, then everybody will want it.
At early levels, it goes up to 25 gp per dose, but then it becomes a brutal 8 gp 3 sp~ per dose. I think that's the cheapest you can get, while also saying goodbye to having to use an action to apply the poison on your weaponry - and you can build this poison up, making doses and more doses.
I also find poisons much overpriced compared to their effectiveness. It is in fact so cost-ineffective that I have never heard of anyone buying poisons at the listed prices in the DMG, which is a shame as I like the theme they bring to the table. At my table I have implemented some changes to the way poisons work:
1. I apply the same crafting costs as that of potions (half the cost of half the selling price). 2. Crafting time equals selling price divided by 10. 3. Crafting time is modified according to your skills and luck: 1d20 + INT mod + Prof mod (Poisoner's Kit) DC 1-10: Twice as long 11-19: No change 20+: Half as long
4. Increase all poison DCs by 1.
I have considered decreasing the prices and effects of all poisons much further, and instead allow for the creation of more potent doses by adding doses together (only changing DC, not damage), e.g. a basic poison that would normally cost 100g would instead cost 10g and have a DC of 1 but still deal 1d4 damage on failure. By combining 10 doses of basic poison, the DC would increase to 10 (+1 for each dose added), still dealing 1d4 damage on a failed save. A character could combine more doses to make the DC even higher, though this still wouldn't change the poison's effect..
Poison is something which works completely different in real life than in game. In game, if someone stabs you with a poisoned sword, you immediately take damage and then get a bit queasy for a minute and are then fine.
Poisons in reality should have a long term effect which requires treatment to stop it from getting worse. They should be treated in a manner similar to disease, and really shouldn't do anything for at least 2-3 turns. The idea of using poison for a quick kill is somewhat crazy! if you're in a position to stab someone with a dagger, whether the dagger is poisoned or not is irrelevant!
I did start making my own rules for poison, once upon a time, but never got very far with it. The gist of it was that poisons would affect an individual for a long time, and some would get worse with time whilst others would get better. It all amounted to a lot more bookkeeping for the DM, so it's probably better reserved for the more keen DMs!
The effects and crafting time of vanilla D&D are frankly terrible and nonsensical. I'm playing as assassin and I'm trying to come up with homebrew poison rules to present to my DM. We both agree book rules aren't good for poison, so I wondering if anyone had any good rules they used in their games that made PC poison use viable. Any help would be appreciated.
Additionally, from the DMG - you don't need to craft poison - you can harvest it.
So, being truthful, you do have ways that don't need spending 30 days to make some poison, but you can instead bonk a Purple Worm and spend an average of 3-4 minutes to get that - the thing will be having your DM shift monsters to ones that can give poison around.
Additionally, the Poisoner feat.
So, being honest - spending a horrible amount of time? I don't see where you need such a thing.
My Homebrew Spells: Nichuro's Spellcasters Association
Basic poison shouldn't take that long or cost that much. Sure, it can be harvested from monsters, but there's no good reason for poison outside of that to be that obtuse or useless. Poison is nowhere as effective in D&D as in real life. to the point of defying all logic. I shouldn't have to work around the rules or do one specific thing because the rest is terribly designed.
I'm not sure how you know the effectiveness of poisons in real life....
Poisons inflict conditions, they can also add a small damage die on injury. The poisoned condition is fairly debilitating if you can get it to land and stick. Unconscious is worse. Basic Poison runs a cool 100gp in the PHB. Of course, as a member of the Assassins Guild, you might get it for a steal... or maybe in exchange for a job. When you get into higher level poisons the conditions get bigger and the add-on damage gets more lethal. Access to that much lethality to early in game can cause issues for your DM to balance out to ensure they don't kill your beloved Assassin too easily. Maybe try looking at this from the other side of the coin, how would you feel if every kobold, goblin or low level NPC hit you with a poisoned weapon? How about one that was coated with Drow Poison? Purple Worm Poison?
D&D wasn't built as a game about being a guild merchant or the realms greatest crafter of things. The premise of the game is that you are an adventurer, hero or not, but adventurer. In order for you to have an item someone has to first make it - be it you, a creature, or a merchant - which takes time, sometimes a lot of time. Then the item needs to change hands - lawfully, unlawfully, or by force - this can be dangerous or just expensive. Once you have said item in your inventory, you can use it to your hearts content. Long story short, the more powerful an item, the longer the cost or the greater the risk associated with obtaining it. If losing time is a risk to you, so be it. Make your choices according to your risk decisions.
Homebrewing poison rules to use in your game is literally working around the rules. I'm sure you tried our old friend Google. When I used it I had a homebrewed set of rules on my screen within a matter of moments that, as a DM, I could use as a framework should I choose to. Take a stroll through the homebrew items here on DDB, maybe someone has already created what you are looking for. Ask your DM for a Dagger of Venom. There are methods to get what you want to accomplish without scrambling the code so-to-speak, or demanding someone give you the Staples Easy Button.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I mean - talk to Wizards and their limited spells but the fact that they could learn more if you gave them more scrolls - in fact, literally any ranged characther if you actually make ammo be lost - you have to be ready to supply on sensical ways the things that fuel them - and well, you may say that "poison" is uneffective, but think about this. On real life, our stat-block is quite much that of a commoner - and cheap poison does what, 2d6? Basic poison can outright kill you - which jokingly enough, doesn't happen on real life, unless the poison is designed to do so.
My Homebrew Spells: Nichuro's Spellcasters Association
How is it not effective?
A commoner has 4 hit points. That's you, in the real world. So any ingested or contact poison that deals 1d4 points of poison damage is lethal one time in 4. 85%-90% of dogs survive getting bitten by a rattlesnake, so that's more powerful than rattlesnake venom.
What are you hoping to accomplish with poisons? Basic poison is pretty powerful - a DC10 Con save or the target suffers 1d4 bonus damage. There's a need for the CON save or every adventurer will use poison, basically adding 2.5 damage to their attacks (better than the Duelling fighting style that Fighters/Paladins etc. get). Once you start producing your own poisons, you should expect that you will be making them for your team mates as well. They benefit everyone, not just the poison maker.
The main things for you and your DM to think about are:
Many poisons require treatment or they have serious effects. Basic poison costs too much to actually be worth the cost. It's already an okay at best bonus because of the 10 CON save.
Many poisons that are handcrafted, like Ricin, are incredibly hard to survive, and while not immediate death, do kill you. Ingested poisons are weak and overpriced for what they do. We can make potions that heal you instantly, it stands to reason poisons would be scaled up effectively, or at least as effective. I get poison as an illegal substance being harder to get your hands on, but as an assassin it doesn't make sense for it almost impossible to make with the right equipment (poisoner's kit). And no one is trying to kill a commoner like that. 1d4 is not a big combat bonus, and considering it has to be readied and you need to be trained to apply it safely if I recall right. I never said poison needs to be immediate, it just needs to be a bit more effective and not purely made for NPCs as it is now. If I can poison someone's food, I'm not gonna be poisoning a commoner. It'll be someone else. It should be possible probably kill someone is such a manner. Injury poisons obviously may not be as effective, but other kinds have more reasons to be lethal. I get they shouldn't be over-powered, but they also should not be a horrible use of time and resources for a small small bonus. Making poison also doesn't take a month.
No poison is cheap, it's all incredibly expensive, and the cheapest does 1d4 if you fail a 10 CON save. And for purposes of the game, commoners aren't really relevant to the discussion.
Found that floating about on the CDC website, so for context, the weaker (naturally occurring) strain can cause injury, to make it more potent you would have to refine it. Survivable in it's natural state, but just like anything else used in excess, it becomes deadly. So far, the analog between our physical universe and the in game universe are holding somewhat in line.
Point here is, again, if you spend the time to harvest, craft or collect the substance, you're not an adventurer. You're an NPC at this point. Sure, burning downtime to make some mundane items, maybe a potion of healing is understandable. I could see how, and have had, a crafting session in preparation for a large combat encounter that the PCs are planning. This is the exception, not the rule.
From your OP, I gathered two main purposes for wanting to homebrew these - 1) As a player, you want easy and readily available access to a combat modifier and are frustrated that your options are limited. 2) You feel constrained by the vague (see also: missing) guidelines about crafting an item (particularly poison) in game. This is where you and your DM come in. Pointing out that there is something missing, or applying your subjective opinion as fact doesn't solve your problem. Come up with a reason in game that allows your character a reasonable access point to this item. Work it out with your DM for you to go on a monster hunt to find this mystical death juice that will end anyone with a scratch from your signet ring. Maybe try turning this into a character goal, something for your character to grow towards. Going out on a limb here, but is it possible that your DM doesn't want this item to be prolific in their world or easily obtained by the PCs and NPCs?
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I mean, you can literally spend 50 gp to get a DC 14 Con for 2d8 damage poison with a feat up to six doses - I'd think that is relatively cheap compared with other items. And for the sake of the game - you may say commoners are irrelevant, but are what define the standards for that. But consider that if poison is easily accessible and easy to slap in, then everybody will want it.
At early levels, it goes up to 25 gp per dose, but then it becomes a brutal 8 gp 3 sp~ per dose. I think that's the cheapest you can get, while also saying goodbye to having to use an action to apply the poison on your weaponry - and you can build this poison up, making doses and more doses.
Any poison cheaper than 8 gp?
My Homebrew Spells: Nichuro's Spellcasters Association
I also find poisons much overpriced compared to their effectiveness. It is in fact so cost-ineffective that I have never heard of anyone buying poisons at the listed prices in the DMG, which is a shame as I like the theme they bring to the table. At my table I have implemented some changes to the way poisons work:
1. I apply the same crafting costs as that of potions (half the cost of half the selling price).
2. Crafting time equals selling price divided by 10.
3. Crafting time is modified according to your skills and luck: 1d20 + INT mod + Prof mod (Poisoner's Kit)
DC
1-10: Twice as long
11-19: No change
20+: Half as long
4. Increase all poison DCs by 1.
I have considered decreasing the prices and effects of all poisons much further, and instead allow for the creation of more potent doses by adding doses together (only changing DC, not damage), e.g. a basic poison that would normally cost 100g would instead cost 10g and have a DC of 1 but still deal 1d4 damage on failure. By combining 10 doses of basic poison, the DC would increase to 10 (+1 for each dose added), still dealing 1d4 damage on a failed save. A character could combine more doses to make the DC even higher, though this still wouldn't change the poison's effect..
Poison is something which works completely different in real life than in game. In game, if someone stabs you with a poisoned sword, you immediately take damage and then get a bit queasy for a minute and are then fine.
Poisons in reality should have a long term effect which requires treatment to stop it from getting worse. They should be treated in a manner similar to disease, and really shouldn't do anything for at least 2-3 turns. The idea of using poison for a quick kill is somewhat crazy! if you're in a position to stab someone with a dagger, whether the dagger is poisoned or not is irrelevant!
I did start making my own rules for poison, once upon a time, but never got very far with it. The gist of it was that poisons would affect an individual for a long time, and some would get worse with time whilst others would get better. It all amounted to a lot more bookkeeping for the DM, so it's probably better reserved for the more keen DMs!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!