Gnome, I’m actually thinking just the opposite - neither psionics nor magic should be able to counter the other if they can then they are really the same thing and that is what I, at least, am trying to get away from.
This is were the duplicative nature of 3e psionics began.
1) Declare that magic and psionics have no interaction. 2) Retcon every high-level monster to have both magic AND psi resistance to restore balance. 3) Copy every spell remotely related to psionics into a separate psionic power. 4) Create Counterpsi and Dispel Psionics spells for spellcasters, and give Counterspell and Dispel Magic to psions to balance them against each other. 4) End up with psionics users that are functionally spellcasters with twice as many rules.
It is productive to consider systems where we don't start with (1). It's also worth noting that the (non-)interaction between psionics and magic has never been so absolute as you're making it out to be.
The target still can't take actions even with their mind despite that being weird narratively because they're still incapacitated.
Nothing too weird about it. Spellcasters can't concentrate on spells when incapacitated, so it makes sense that the mentally demanding discipline of psionics would also be impossible.
True, and it seems they're giving some monsters a different type of spellcasting anyway through "spell-like" abilities that can't be counter spelled. Lol. Probably not as prevalent as your psi-magic vs. spell-magic of 3e example.
Hold person does not effect the mind. Other wise you could not try for a wisdom save.
Paralyzed does not effect the mind. Just the body again and the same for incapacitated.
As long as the psionic is conscious and thinking he has full power.
I was speaking mechanically not what you believed it be narratively. The above can only be true if the OP is going to make a Psionic's Class that doesn't use the action economy of 5e game (free action, action, bonus action, and reaction). I'm assuming the OP is making a Psionic Class that does use this game's action economy so in your example the Psionic would still be affected by hold person.
It would obviously be broken if the psionic merely needed to be conscious and could cast things freely, and quickly. In reality it takes time to think, so likewise it shouldn't be instant. If you did want a narrative explanation then maybe the effects of paralysis induce a panic in their mind, or affect the nervous system directly like neurotoxins in the real world. My point was that the mechanics present in 5e can still allow the Psionic to be affected magic even if the OP implied they should be separate (which I disagree with).
Would psionics be effected by tiny hut or other similar spells?
Would non detection work against psionics?
This is actually valid, and where I disagree with the OP.
For tiny hut "Spells and other magical effects can't extend through the dome or be cast through it." Psionics is still supernatural from my perspective, and falls into "other magical effects" category. The Mystic class has its effects in this same category "magical." So there's less balancing issues.
For nondetection it's mainly divination magic school, and some magical scrying sensors. So Psionics could still get around it unless its worded to be a "magical scrying sensor"
Letting Psionics be "magical" solves many wack-a-mole magic issues with current spells.
OP back again. reading through to catch up and here are some of my reactions: 1) I/we are stuck with the reality that to the average citizen of any world psionic it’s and spellcasters look pretty much the same - they make weird dangerous stuff happen that most folks can’t do anything about. That means that either you have one system (magic since it’s already around) that is reskinned in some way to make it look like psionics or you have 2 different systems that while they have some duplicated effects mostly work past each other on separate tracks. Since both end up affecting the real world the final effect might be the same but the path to that effect is very different. example: magic - counterspell- a reaction that disrupts the magical reworking of the weave being done in the casting of a spell by a magic user rendering that spell undone and lost. psion - psychic stun (possible new ability) - a telepathic reaction sending a brief mental blast disrupting a foe’s concentration on their action causing them to forget what action they are taking and loosing that action including losing a spell they are in the middle of casting. same effect but very different ways of getting there based on different mechanics.
2) this thread is not about reviewing a system I have already created it’s really supposed to be about establishing a community that is working together to create something the members want but doesn’t exist ( A 5e compatible separate psionics system that is not just reskinned magic even if to outsiders ( like the citizens of most worlds) it’s effects look pretty much like magic. 3) because it is required to be a compatible system it has to work within the existing framework of 5e so yes it has to use actions, bonus actions and reactions as shown in the example above. Also, yes mages have to be able to affect psions - the example of hold person is good - it blocks the ability to concentrate on spells so it would also block the ability to focus and generate psionic activities and powers.
4) I’ll use the FR here as I know it fairly well - my present vision of what psionics is, is as follows: Ao is the FR over god what he/she/it wills happens. The activated mind has learned to tap directly into that to one extent or another and can make direct changes to their world completely bypassing the weave. This means psionics can work in a null magic zone etc. it can’t work only in areas where there is no overmind at all ( given spelljammer coming out things like the ethereal and astral planes are regions where overminds overlap and interact so psionics still functions an world travellors are quickly able to connect to the overminds of new crystal spheres) these effects are effectively mostly temporary and brief and therefore inconsequential- especially from the overmind’s point of view. 5) I’ll look over that mystic and probably do some outside research/system examination but I hope this will become a collaborative effort not just me doing it while the gallery kibitzes.
There is so much the OP needs to define and stop just asking for ideas. And throwing out those he doesn't like.
He has obviously not thought about this beyond the 'I want' stage.
Your right you know this is very much an early beginning not a finished product. If you’ve never really done good brainstorming it is a whole lot of asking for ideas an some rejecting of one’s already in use. I’ve said several times that what I’m looking for is not going to be reskinned magic so yes suggestions that seem to me to be reskinning magic are going to be rejected. Yes there are huge issues that need defining but this was not meant to be me doing all the work and others commenting on a work in progress. I was/am asking for folks to actually dig in and take pieces of this and run with it some yourselves. So, given my previous post how do you see psionics interacting with tiny hut and nondetection?
Years ago I playtested a few games. Wrote a few things for other games and yes came up with quite a few alternate ideas for D&D. Whole character classes in fact. The font of old ideas is closed.
There's a couple different ways to tackle it, I feel. Pre-Tasha's Cauldron of Afterthoughts, I felt that the Monk made a pretty good chassis for a psionic class (the UA Mystic did take some cues from that, but I think the existing Ki system would have been a good enough template). Post-Tasha's, while I'm not the biggest fan of it because I think it needed more time to cook, the Psionic Energy Dice do present a resource to use. There have been other ideas floated, and they're probably worth exploring, but I would start from one of those two.
(Full disclosure: I am involved in a couple of other Psionics projects. I'll be doing my utmost to not leak anything from any of those.)
OP back again. reading through to catch up and here are some of my reactions: 1) I/we are stuck with the reality that to the average citizen of any world psionic it’s and spellcasters look pretty much the same - they make weird dangerous stuff happen that most folks can’t do anything about. That means that either you have one system (magic since it’s already around) that is reskinned in some way to make it look like psionics or you have 2 different systems that while they have some duplicated effects mostly work past each other on separate tracks. Since both end up affecting the real world the final effect might be the same but the path to that effect is very different. example: magic - counterspell- a reaction that disrupts the magical reworking of the weave being done in the casting of a spell by a magic user rendering that spell undone and lost. psion - psychic stun (possible new ability) - a telepathic reaction sending a brief mental blast disrupting a foe’s concentration on their action causing them to forget what action they are taking and loosing that action including losing a spell they are in the middle of casting. same effect but very different ways of getting there based on different mechanics.
2) this thread is not about reviewing a system I have already created it’s really supposed to be about establishing a community that is working together to create something the members want but doesn’t exist ( A 5e compatible separate psionics system that is not just reskinned magic even if to outsiders ( like the citizens of most worlds) it’s effects look pretty much like magic. 3) because it is required to be a compatible system it has to work within the existing framework of 5e so yes it has to use actions, bonus actions and reactions as shown in the example above. Also, yes mages have to be able to affect psions - the example of hold person is good - it blocks the ability to concentrate on spells so it would also block the ability to focus and generate psionic activities and powers.
4) I’ll use the FR here as I know it fairly well - my present vision of what psionics is, is as follows: Ao is the FR over god what he/she/it wills happens. The activated mind has learned to tap directly into that to one extent or another and can make direct changes to their world completely bypassing the weave. This means psionics can work in a null magic zone etc. it can’t work only in areas where there is no overmind at all ( given spelljammer coming out things like the ethereal and astral planes are regions where overminds overlap and interact so psionics still functions an world travellors are quickly able to connect to the overminds of new crystal spheres) these effects are effectively mostly temporary and brief and therefore inconsequential- especially from the overmind’s point of view. 5) I’ll look over that mystic and probably do some outside research/system examination but I hope this will become a collaborative effort not just me doing it while the gallery kibitzes.
Then if you're wanting it to work in a null magic zone it's important to understand how 5e mechanically handles "magical." It is not just about the narrative of spell casting or the weave (which isn't necessarily in every setting). This also goes back to the antimagic field spell example. While this video may be about Sul Khatesh's anitmagic field, this covers what 5e considers "magical" and what things are affected (such as monks being affected). Psionics is also mentioned specifically later in the video, but he is incorrect because soulknife mentions magical.
Additionally for "balance" concerns, the wish is one way to temporarily (8 hours) provide immunity to one spell or magical effect. Notice that even for a 9th level spell this effect is not a permanent bypassing effect. Care should be given if granting similar effects to psionics. Though I could see it as a high level feature at level 17-20 since that is normally when 9th level spells are acquired. Artifacts, and dieties can also bypass antimagic fields that is discussed in the video or in the spell description itself. I strongly suggest against giving psionics this ability before level 17 (tier 4 play).
Psions are not spellcasters. They have learned to activate portions of their mind that allows them to directly control the world around them without recourse to magical actions. At lower levels their powers are limited but as they develop the powers increase. Psions are rare, they require strong minds and bodies which means that to be a Psion you need an Intelligence, Wisdom, Constitution and Charisma of 13 or greater. They get a D8 for Hit Points and can wear light armor and use simple weapons.
Below is a quick guide to their development:
L1) 4L0 (at will) Powers, 2L1 Power Slots, 1 psionic attack (Mind Thrust), 1 psionic defense (Mind blank), Psionic Path Powers and 2 L1 Powers. L2) +1 L1 power and slot, Psionic Power Pool & 3 points (PPPP), Metapsionics – 3 abilities L3) +1 L1 power and Slot and 2 L2 powers and slots, a Psionic Path Power, +1PPPP L4) ABS +1 L2 Power & slot, 1 attack (Ego Whip), 1 Defense (Thought Shield), +2 PPPP L5) +1 L0 power, +2 L3 Powers and slots, a psionic path power, +1 PPPP L6) A psionic Path Feature, +1 Metapsionic ability, +1PPPP L7) 1 L4 power and slot, a psionic path power, +1 PPPP L8) ABS, 1 attack (psionic Blast), 1 defense (Mental Barrier), +1 L4 Power and slot, +2 PPPP L9) +1 L4 power and slot, 1L5 power and slot, a psionic path power, +1 PPPP L10) Psionic Path Feature, +1 Metapsionic ability, +1 L0 Power, +1 L5 power and Slot, +1 PPPP L11) 1 L6 Power and slot, +1 PPPP L12) ABS, 1 attack (Id Insinuation), 1 defense (Intellect Fortress), +2 PPPP L13) 1 L7 power and slot, +1 PPPP L14) Psionic Path Feature, +1 Metapsionic Ability, +1 PPPP L15) 1 L8 Power and slot, +1 PPPP L16) ABS, 1 attack (Psychic Crush), 1 defense (Tower of Iron Will), +2 PPPP L17) 1L9 power and Slot, +1 PPPP L18) Psionic Mastery (1 L1 and 1 L2 powers at will at base level), +1 PPPP L19) ABS, +2 PPPP L20) +1 L7 Power and Slot, Signature Power (2 L3 Powers activated once at base level without expending a slot, +1 PPPP
True, and it seems they're giving some monsters a different type of spellcasting anyway through "spell-like" abilities that can't be counter spelled. Lol. Probably not as prevalent as your psi-magic vs. spell-magic of 3e example.
Hold person does not effect the mind. Other wise you could not try for a wisdom save.
Paralyzed does not effect the mind. Just the body again and the same for incapacitated.
As long as the psionic is conscious and thinking he has full power.
Would psionics be effected by tiny hut or other similar spells?
Would non detection work against psionics?
I was speaking mechanically not what you believed it be narratively. The above can only be true if the OP is going to make a Psionic's Class that doesn't use the action economy of 5e game (free action, action, bonus action, and reaction). I'm assuming the OP is making a Psionic Class that does use this game's action economy so in your example the Psionic would still be affected by hold person.
It would obviously be broken if the psionic merely needed to be conscious and could cast things freely, and quickly. In reality it takes time to think, so likewise it shouldn't be instant. If you did want a narrative explanation then maybe the effects of paralysis induce a panic in their mind, or affect the nervous system directly like neurotoxins in the real world. My point was that the mechanics present in 5e can still allow the Psionic to be affected magic even if the OP implied they should be separate (which I disagree with).
This is actually valid, and where I disagree with the OP.
For tiny hut "Spells and other magical effects can't extend through the dome or be cast through it." Psionics is still supernatural from my perspective, and falls into "other magical effects" category. The Mystic class has its effects in this same category "magical." So there's less balancing issues.
For nondetection it's mainly divination magic school, and some magical scrying sensors. So Psionics could still get around it unless its worded to be a "magical scrying sensor"
Letting Psionics be "magical" solves many wack-a-mole magic issues with current spells.
There is so much the OP needs to define and stop just asking for ideas. And throwing out those he doesn't like.
He has obviously not thought about this beyond the 'I want' stage.
OP back again.
reading through to catch up and here are some of my reactions:
1) I/we are stuck with the reality that to the average citizen of any world psionic it’s and spellcasters look pretty much the same - they make weird dangerous stuff happen that most folks can’t do anything about. That means that either you have one system (magic since it’s already around) that is reskinned in some way to make it look like psionics or you have 2 different systems that while they have some duplicated effects mostly work past each other on separate tracks. Since both end up affecting the real world the final effect might be the same but the path to that effect is very different.
example: magic - counterspell- a reaction that disrupts the magical reworking of the weave being done in the casting of a spell by a magic user rendering that spell undone and lost.
psion - psychic stun (possible new ability) - a telepathic reaction sending a brief mental blast disrupting a foe’s concentration on their action causing them to forget what action they are taking and loosing that action including losing a spell they are in the middle of casting.
same effect but very different ways of getting there based on different mechanics.
2) this thread is not about reviewing a system I have already created it’s really supposed to be about establishing a community that is working together to create something the members want but doesn’t exist ( A 5e compatible separate psionics system that is not just reskinned magic even if to outsiders ( like the citizens of most worlds) it’s effects look pretty much like magic.
3) because it is required to be a compatible system it has to work within the existing framework of 5e so yes it has to use actions, bonus actions and reactions as shown in the example above. Also, yes mages have to be able to affect psions - the example of hold person is good - it blocks the ability to concentrate on spells so it would also block the ability to focus and generate psionic activities and powers.
4) I’ll use the FR here as I know it fairly well - my present vision of what psionics is, is as follows: Ao is the FR over god what he/she/it wills happens. The activated mind has learned to tap directly into that to one extent or another and can make direct changes to their world completely bypassing the weave. This means psionics can work in a null magic zone etc. it can’t work only in areas where there is no overmind at all ( given spelljammer coming out things like the ethereal and astral planes are regions where overminds overlap and interact so psionics still functions an world travellors are quickly able to connect to the overminds of new crystal spheres) these effects are effectively mostly temporary and brief and therefore inconsequential- especially from the overmind’s point of view.
5) I’ll look over that mystic and probably do some outside research/system examination but I hope this will become a collaborative effort not just me doing it while the gallery kibitzes.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Your right you know this is very much an early beginning not a finished product. If you’ve never really done good brainstorming it is a whole lot of asking for ideas an some rejecting of one’s already in use. I’ve said several times that what I’m looking for is not going to be reskinned magic so yes suggestions that seem to me to be reskinning magic are going to be rejected. Yes there are huge issues that need defining but this was not meant to be me doing all the work and others commenting on a work in progress. I was/am asking for folks to actually dig in and take pieces of this and run with it some yourselves. So, given my previous post how do you see psionics interacting with tiny hut and nondetection?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
How do you see it acting?
How do you see anything in this idea?
Years ago I playtested a few games. Wrote a few things for other games and yes came up with quite a few alternate ideas for D&D. Whole character classes in fact. The font of old ideas is closed.
There's a couple different ways to tackle it, I feel. Pre-Tasha's Cauldron of Afterthoughts, I felt that the Monk made a pretty good chassis for a psionic class (the UA Mystic did take some cues from that, but I think the existing Ki system would have been a good enough template). Post-Tasha's, while I'm not the biggest fan of it because I think it needed more time to cook, the Psionic Energy Dice do present a resource to use. There have been other ideas floated, and they're probably worth exploring, but I would start from one of those two.
(Full disclosure: I am involved in a couple of other Psionics projects. I'll be doing my utmost to not leak anything from any of those.)
Then if you're wanting it to work in a null magic zone it's important to understand how 5e mechanically handles "magical." It is not just about the narrative of spell casting or the weave (which isn't necessarily in every setting). This also goes back to the antimagic field spell example. While this video may be about Sul Khatesh's anitmagic field, this covers what 5e considers "magical" and what things are affected (such as monks being affected). Psionics is also mentioned specifically later in the video, but he is incorrect because soulknife mentions magical.
Bypassing Sul Khatesh's Anitmagic Video
Additionally for "balance" concerns, the wish is one way to temporarily (8 hours) provide immunity to one spell or magical effect. Notice that even for a 9th level spell this effect is not a permanent bypassing effect. Care should be given if granting similar effects to psionics. Though I could see it as a high level feature at level 17-20 since that is normally when 9th level spells are acquired. Artifacts, and dieties can also bypass antimagic fields that is discussed in the video or in the spell description itself. I strongly suggest against giving psionics this ability before level 17 (tier 4 play).
Psion Class
Psions are not spellcasters. They have learned to activate portions of their mind that allows them to directly control the world around them without recourse to magical actions. At lower levels their powers are limited but as they develop the powers increase. Psions are rare, they require strong minds and bodies which means that to be a Psion you need an Intelligence, Wisdom, Constitution and Charisma of 13 or greater. They get a D8 for Hit Points and can wear light armor and use simple weapons.
Below is a quick guide to their development:
L1) 4L0 (at will) Powers, 2L1 Power Slots, 1 psionic attack (Mind Thrust), 1 psionic defense (Mind blank),
Psionic Path Powers and 2 L1 Powers.
L2) +1 L1 power and slot, Psionic Power Pool & 3 points (PPPP), Metapsionics – 3 abilities
L3) +1 L1 power and Slot and 2 L2 powers and slots, a Psionic Path Power, +1PPPP
L4) ABS +1 L2 Power & slot, 1 attack (Ego Whip), 1 Defense (Thought Shield), +2 PPPP
L5) +1 L0 power, +2 L3 Powers and slots, a psionic path power, +1 PPPP
L6) A psionic Path Feature, +1 Metapsionic ability, +1PPPP
L7) 1 L4 power and slot, a psionic path power, +1 PPPP
L8) ABS, 1 attack (psionic Blast), 1 defense (Mental Barrier), +1 L4 Power and slot, +2 PPPP
L9) +1 L4 power and slot, 1L5 power and slot, a psionic path power, +1 PPPP
L10) Psionic Path Feature, +1 Metapsionic ability, +1 L0 Power, +1 L5 power and Slot, +1 PPPP
L11) 1 L6 Power and slot, +1 PPPP
L12) ABS, 1 attack (Id Insinuation), 1 defense (Intellect Fortress), +2 PPPP
L13) 1 L7 power and slot, +1 PPPP
L14) Psionic Path Feature, +1 Metapsionic Ability, +1 PPPP
L15) 1 L8 Power and slot, +1 PPPP
L16) ABS, 1 attack (Psychic Crush), 1 defense (Tower of Iron Will), +2 PPPP
L17) 1L9 power and Slot, +1 PPPP
L18) Psionic Mastery (1 L1 and 1 L2 powers at will at base level), +1 PPPP
L19) ABS, +2 PPPP
L20) +1 L7 Power and Slot, Signature Power (2 L3 Powers activated once at base level without expending a slot, +1 PPPP
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.