Greetings, in other threads it has become clear that while some folks are fine with reflavoring magic as psionics others of us would prefer a 5e compatible separate psionics system. This thread is for the latter group to work on doing just that. lol post some of my ideas in a few minutes. If you have ideas please feel free to post them for discussion.
Here is more or less where I started - and yes these are simply copies of the important pieces of my posts to other threads.
1) Wilders - the 5e equivalent of a wild talent is anyone that has taken the Telepathic or Telekinetic feat.
2) the 5e “psionic” subclasses aren’t bad, they just aren’t what they could have/should have been. 3) For 5e WOTC have basically decided that psionics is just another form of sorcery/ magic - if that is the case it’s almost why bother - use the classes as given and kiss any attempts at real psionics goodbye. If it isn’t then you need a solid explanation of how it works and why it isn’t magic ( or your stuck with Heinlein’s “ One man’s technology is another man’s magic” and your back to square one) and that means no weave references which should be interesting to try to do. 4. While 5e is workable I’m not happy with it as I too think it could be a lot more than it is I’m just not sure how to do it right now.
Yes psionics in earlier editions was not what it could be or should be but I think at least 2&3e might have mechanics that can be drawn on to build something that be better than anything we’ve seen so far. The first thing is a basis for psionics outside of magic - no weave, no mana, Nyet. I have a few ideas - not really ready for prime time but here goes
1) when you move your body etc you think about it and it happens - psionics should be pretty much the same thing - no components, no somatics just the thought and maybe a vocal component ( like the Belariad- the will and the word) 2) psionics is direct manipulation of the world by the power of the mind - no mana/weave/ whatever as such it works even in magic dead zones. On the other hand natural or even magical resistances still work so a red dragon is still resistant to psionic induced fire just as it is to a bonfire or a fireball. 3) no devotions/sciences/powers all of the abilities get ranked into 10 levels and perhaps by their psionic categories. (since this is how DnD ranks it’s powers) . 4) we already have 3 subclasses (a rogue, warrior and sorceror) that would need some revamping but you could add at least 5 others - clairsentient, psychometabolic, telepathic, telekinetic, and psychoportive these would be somewhat like the Mage’s Arcane Traditions - areas of focus but not exclusive areas. I would also love to see subclasses for artificers and rangers. I can even see psionic “warlocks” with a patron granting them access and training. 5) attacks and defenses are developed as you level up along meta psionic abilities as parts of the base classes what else goes into them is still up in the air I haven’t though that thru yet.
Anyway that’s about as far as I’ve thought into what a 5-6e psion and psionics should be like.
there lots of really cool abilities listed in the 2e -4e manuals so while they will need some reworking to fit the 5e mechanics it shouldn’t be that hard
If psionics is just a flavor of magic then what is the point? If it’s present it should be something different, that’s really the point of it. What doesn’t fit is that it should be rare - maybe by requiring Int, wis,& Cha to all be 13+. While that wouldn’t actually affect its frequency as a character it would sort of establish it as relatively rare in the population at large. You could then use the stat bonuses as a base for power points - Int bonus at L1, + Wis bonus at L2, +Cha bonus at L3 then stat boosts as normal with additional points at selected levels or 1 or 2 points per level.
Closer to a monk yes, a warlock - no. A warlock gets its powers from its patron, A monk gets it’s Ki powers from its training and focus . A psion it’s gets its psionic powers from its awakened mind, training and focus. It doesn’t manipulate mana/weave to have that manipulate the world (spellcasting), they reach out into the world and manipulate it directly. In 2e there were 6 “psionic devotions: Clairsentience, Telepathy, Psychometabolism, Psychokinesis, Psychoportation and meta psionics. At L1 you selected one devotion as your primary and worked on developing abilities within that devotion. At selected points in your progression you had the opportunity to select additional devotions and work on refining and expanding etch’s arrays of talents.
the 2e methods of devotions, sciences etc won’t work given 5e’s leveling structure but those same abilities could be reorganized into levels with some abilities always available and others only available a limited number of times or doing more if powered at higher than base levels. The meta psionic abilities as well as psionic attack and defense modes could be turned into the class features and gained in some sort of progression through the levels along with Psionic Power Points allowing for meta psionics or additional activations of powers or extensions of powers for longer durations.
The end result would be a range of characters separate from mages, sorcerors and their derivatives but with equal power and balanced against the rest of 5e.
1) a properly designed and balanced psion is not going to have unlimited higher powered abilities it’s unbalanced. That means you either use a straight points system or you use a leveled system like spell slots - if you hate the term spell slots I can understand, perhaps calling them power potentials or something can make them easier to swallow.
deleted comments not important here
4) the 2e, 3e, and even 4e psionics books have a well over 200 mostly non spell mimic abilities that could be updated to 5e very easily especially if uprating of powers is allowed (as it should be). So for those that don’t want spell duplicates I recommend getting a copy (digital or Hard copy) and take a stab or three at working out some sequences or subclasses.
This is kind of all over the place. Maybe define what you believe psionics should be first.
Mechanically either make a separate class with the subclasses representing a different focus similar to what you described for 2e, or make other subclasses that Wotc hasn't done already for psionics (you say rogue, warrior and sorcerer have one already). If you really want it to be an entirely different "Spellcasting" then mechanically that has also already been done with Warlock's "Pact Magic" (to a lesser extent Ki Points). So it isn't out of the ordinary to make a separate resource for psionics either.
As near as I can tell it sounds like psionics basically benefits from effects similar to Subtle Spell Metamagic, and sul khatesh's Arcane Cataclysm's rider of "The area of each arcane burst then acts as an antimagic field for 1 hour. Sul Khatesh and spells she casts are unaffected by these fields." Specifically Sul Khatesh's ability to ignore her own antimagic fields, hence psionics could conceivable ignore the normal spell antimagic field, or wild magic zones I suppose.
I personally am neutral on the idea of psionics, however psionics feels closer to science fiction so I can see it in spell jammer for the most part.
I mean, the best way to keep it balanced is to not try to design a separate system at all. 😝
To keep it simple I'd say create a Sorcerer sub-class but build it around a core feature like:
Psionic
Your spells do not require uncosted material components.
In addition, spells you cast at 1st-level are much harder to counteract, rendering them immune to effects that would cause them to fail or be suppressed such as an antimagic field or counterspell.
The level of spell affected by this feature increases as you gain levels in this class, increasing to 2nd-level spells at 5th-level, 3rd-level spells at 9th-level, 4th-level spells at 13th-level, and 5th-level spells at 17th-level.
I think this strikes a reasonable balance by keeping your lower level spells easier to use and harder to counter, but the higher level ones remain vulnerable for balance. Thematically you could justify it as the more powerful spells being manifested using psionics, but still having to draw some of their energy from the Weave, so they are not immune?
This avoids the need to go into designing a whole new system or class, and would give us a psionic full caster. Not sure what the other features of the sub-class should be; maybe spells that can be counter/dispelled count as one level higher (to make them harder but not impossible to end)?
Update: Originally I tied this feature to proficiency then realised that would just make it a steal for multiclassing (every full casting class would take a level in Psionic Sorcerer just to gain this feature if it scaled by character level like that), so I tied it to sorcerer level instead.
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The point Haravikk, is not to simulate a psionic with magic which is what you did, but to go ahead and do the work to actually creat a workable balanced psionics system for 5e because, for some of us, a simulation is not acceptable.
Bumpkins, yes it’s sort of all over the place - it’s initial ideas/brainstorming in response to others thoughts and my own - your seeing the very early begining steps of the creation process. It will be a full blown class with a separate mechanic than the weave/spellcasting and it won’t be available in DDB because it’s a class not a subclass. Are there any pieces of the jumble you like. Dislike? Have comments or ideas/extensions of to share?
Everything in D&D is a simulation; the key thing is to identify the minimum amount you need mechanically to be able to play a character that feels like a psionic, while minimising work and balance issues for yourself.
If you want psionics to be balanced against regular spellcasting then the easiest way is to base it on regular spellcasting, because this avoids you having to come up with a bunch of spell-like effects, most of which will be reinventing the wheel or copying existing spells anyway. It also ensures balance because it's using the same basic mechanics for spells.
What you need are the parts that let you reskin it all as psionics; having unblockable spells certainly achieves part of that. We already have feats for telepathy and telekinesis for those if a player wants them, as well as the telekinesis spell at higher levels. Basically the non-blockable aspect is the main thing that we're lacking, once you have that you've got yourself the toolkit to play as a psionic full caster or half-caster, or whatever you want to bolt it onto.
An alternative would just be to roll the feature I gave above into a feat; base it off the proficiency bonus (i.e- spells with a level below the proficiency bonus are harder to counteract etc.) and you've got "psionics" you can apply to any casting class. Personally I still think Sorcerer is the better base, since they're more about a form of innate spellcasting, but it's an option anyway.
My point is to try not to overcomplicate it, otherwise you're just creating more work for yourself, and making balancing it a lot harder.
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I'm with Haravikk on this, although I realize it will never satisfy everyone. Think of spells as encapsulated abilities and spellcasting as a way to access those abilities. It really does feel a bit stubborn to want to break completely from a system that gets you 80% of what you need.
The other change I'd suggest in addition to Haravikk's suggestion is to have them use the Spell Points optional rules rather than spell slots. I think this would make them feel sufficiently different to play unless you happen to already use those rules.
But if that's not acceptable, I'd suggest combing the internets for existing psionic homebrew. There's plenty of it out there and one of them most likely already has everything you want. Lack of psionics in 5e is not a new problem and you don't need to start from 0.
First off do not make any part of this new class not counterable by magic. Dispell magic and counterspell must work to remove or stop the effects of psionics otherwise its far to powerful.
Obviously this allows you to have an ability that counters or dispells magic.
write up your class features, hit dice, ability score requirements, proficienties. Don't just say lets base it on.
decide if your psionic abilities will scale up with your level. If so write up each base psionic ability.
Decide on how you want the abilities to be cast. Do you want them to use points from a point pool, Do you want them to mirror spell casters and use the slot method.
I personally like point pool. Something like Int plus Wis times level. Casting costs 10 points per level cast.
Decide on how many psionic abilities you start with. I would go with 3 or 4 and add one every third level. Remember these scale so telekinesis will eventually cover all telekinesis type spells and may even surpass them. Fly is just self telekinesis when you have the power to lift yourself.
Bumpkins, yes it’s sort of all over the place - it’s initial ideas/brainstorming in response to others thoughts and my own - your seeing the very early begining steps of the creation process. It will be a full blown class with a separate mechanic than the weave/spellcasting and it won’t be available in DDB because it’s a class not a subclass. Are there any pieces of the jumble you like. Dislike? Have comments or ideas/extensions of to share?
As TheGnome also mentioned it'll be easier to discuss when we see the full blown class with its separate mechanics. Brainstorming in general is great and all, but I mainly wanted to see what you felt was a proper psionics class from your perspective. That provides a framework for reviewing the mechanics going forward.
Additionally, the Mystic was one attempt at Psionics as a full class for 5e (Unearthed Arcana back in 2017). You will have to piece it together as it was UA that then became a few of the subclasses you've already mentioned (like the Soulknife). That "*******" site does have some of the pieces. So how was this a good/bad psionic's class? You could certainly use it as a baseline for concerns of "balance." Though you only need to be about 3/4's balance considering the amount of bloat, and power creep since 5e's release...Mystic actually might be "balanced" now relative to things post-Tasha's lol. I never played one myself however.
Let me reiterate AGAIN - if all you are offering is spellcasting reskinned don’t bother this thread is not aimed at you it is aimed at and intended for those that are willing to try to develop an entirely ( or close to entirely- nothing is ever totally new these days) new system that balances with magic but clearly isn’t magic to those that understand magic.
Gnome, I’m actually thinking just the opposite - neither psionics nor magic should be able to counter the other if they can then they are really the same thing and that is what I, at least, am trying to get away from. I think the first thing is to sort out exactly how psionics and magic are different and what features they will have in common so as to be able to balance them against each other. The details of the powers/abilities should fall in line naturally then. Will they scale with psion level? Almost certainly - exactly how is a question I don’t have answers for yet.
How will abilities be activated? Not sure yet but right now I’m leaning to a mix of slot and points some of that will depend on how I see abilities stacking and linking into sequences of power. ( remember this is very early on I haven’t gone thru the 2e & 3e manuals ranking abilities for relive power in years. 3e does more of this than 2e if I recall correctly. I don’t expect this to be done by the end of Summer let alone July or this coming week.)
You have to allow magic and psionic effects to interact with each other.
A fighter and magic user can effect each others attacks. The fighter can strike the MU and stop the spell, the mu can hold person on the fighter and stop him. If a MU casts hold person on an pcionic what happens? His mind is not held. He can attack right back. Sort of unbalanced. What if the psionic controls someones mind. Can a Cleric or MU dispel the control?
They can interact without being the same thing. In fact they must or the game is unbalanced.
Do not look to back write ups about psionics in D&D. for this they were all wrong and your writing the correct one.
You have to allow magic and psionic effects to interact with each other.
A fighter and magic user can effect each others attacks. The fighter can strike the MU and stop the spell, the mu can hold person on the fighter and stop him. If a MU casts hold person on an pcionic what happens? His mind is not held. He can attack right back. Sort of unbalanced. What if the psionic controls someones mind. Can a Cleric or MU dispel the control?
They can interact without being the same thing. In fact they must or the game is unbalanced.
Do not look to back write ups about psionics in D&D. for this they were all wrong and your writing the correct one.
This is incorrect mechanically speaking. hold person inflicts the paralyzed. The paralyzed condition inflicts incapacitated, in addition to the target not being able to move or speak. The target still can't take actions even with their mind despite that being weird narratively because they're still incapacitated.
I doubt d&d beyond will like me linking this, but here is roughly what the Mystic was (5e's psionic), and their abilities (called Talents and Disciplines). Use this for inspiration/balance. It used two things: Psi Points, and Psi Limit. Psi Points are used by Disciplines (which are a bundle of abilities with each ability having a cost of psi points). Psi Limit is the amount of times you can use a Discipline ability regardless if you have leftover Psi Points (if I interpreted it correctly). Have fun!
Gnome, I’m actually thinking just the opposite - neither psionics nor magic should be able to counter the other if they can then they are really the same thing and that is what I, at least, am trying to get away from.
This is were the duplicative nature of 3e psionics began.
1) Declare that magic and psionics have no interaction. 2) Retcon every high-level monster to have both magic AND psi resistance to restore balance. 3) Copy every spell remotely related to psionics into a separate psionic power. 4) Create Counterpsi and Dispel Psionics spells for spellcasters, and give Counterspell and Dispel Magic to psions to balance them against each other. 4) End up with psionics users that are functionally spellcasters with twice as many rules.
It is productive to consider systems where we don't start with (1). It's also worth noting that the (non-)interaction between psionics and magic has never been so absolute as you're making it out to be.
The target still can't take actions even with their mind despite that being weird narratively because they're still incapacitated.
Nothing too weird about it. Spellcasters can't concentrate on spells when incapacitated, so it makes sense that the mentally demanding discipline of psionics would also be impossible.
Greetings, in other threads it has become clear that while some folks are fine with reflavoring magic as psionics others of us would prefer a 5e compatible separate psionics system. This thread is for the latter group to work on doing just that. lol post some of my ideas in a few minutes. If you have ideas please feel free to post them for discussion.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Here is more or less where I started - and yes these are simply copies of the important pieces of my posts to other threads.
1) Wilders - the 5e equivalent of a wild talent is anyone that has taken the Telepathic or Telekinetic feat.
2) the 5e “psionic” subclasses aren’t bad, they just aren’t what they could have/should have been.
3) For 5e WOTC have basically decided that psionics is just another form of sorcery/ magic - if that is the case it’s almost why bother - use the classes as given and kiss any attempts at real psionics goodbye. If it isn’t then you need a solid explanation of how it works and why it isn’t magic ( or your stuck with Heinlein’s “ One man’s technology is another man’s magic” and your back to square one) and that means no weave references which should be interesting to try to do.
4. While 5e is workable I’m not happy with it as I too think it could be a lot more than it is I’m just not sure how to do it right now.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Next old post
Yes psionics in earlier editions was not what it could be or should be but I think at least 2&3e might have mechanics that can be drawn on to build something that be better than anything we’ve seen so far. The first thing is a basis for psionics outside of magic - no weave, no mana, Nyet. I have a few ideas - not really ready for prime time but here goes
1) when you move your body etc you think about it and it happens - psionics should be pretty much the same thing - no components, no somatics just the thought and maybe a vocal component ( like the Belariad- the will and the word)
2) psionics is direct manipulation of the world by the power of the mind - no mana/weave/ whatever as such it works even in magic dead zones. On the other hand natural or even magical resistances still work so a red dragon is still resistant to psionic induced fire just as it is to a bonfire or a fireball.
3) no devotions/sciences/powers all of the abilities get ranked into 10 levels and perhaps by their psionic categories. (since this is how DnD ranks it’s powers) .
4) we already have 3 subclasses (a rogue, warrior and sorceror) that would need some revamping but you could add at least 5 others - clairsentient, psychometabolic, telepathic, telekinetic, and psychoportive these would be somewhat like the Mage’s Arcane Traditions - areas of focus but not exclusive areas. I would also love to see subclasses for artificers and rangers. I can even see psionic “warlocks” with a patron granting them access and training.
5) attacks and defenses are developed as you level up along meta psionic abilities as parts of the base classes what else goes into them is still up in the air I haven’t though that thru yet.
Anyway that’s about as far as I’ve thought into what a 5-6e psion and psionics should be like.
there lots of really cool abilities listed in the 2e -4e manuals so while they will need some reworking to fit the 5e mechanics it shouldn’t be that hard
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
If psionics is just a flavor of magic then what is the point? If it’s present it should be something different, that’s really the point of it. What doesn’t fit is that it should be rare - maybe by requiring Int, wis,& Cha to all be 13+. While that wouldn’t actually affect its frequency as a character it would sort of establish it as relatively rare in the population at large. You could then use the stat bonuses as a base for power points - Int bonus at L1, + Wis bonus at L2, +Cha bonus at L3 then stat boosts as normal with additional points at selected levels or 1 or 2 points per level.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Closer to a monk yes, a warlock - no. A warlock gets its powers from its patron, A monk gets it’s Ki powers from its training and focus . A psion it’s gets its psionic powers from its awakened mind, training and focus. It doesn’t manipulate mana/weave to have that manipulate the world (spellcasting), they reach out into the world and manipulate it directly.
In 2e there were 6 “psionic devotions: Clairsentience, Telepathy, Psychometabolism, Psychokinesis, Psychoportation and meta psionics. At L1 you selected one devotion as your primary and worked on developing abilities within that devotion. At selected points in your progression you had the opportunity to select additional devotions and work on refining and expanding etch’s arrays of talents.
the 2e methods of devotions, sciences etc won’t work given 5e’s leveling structure but those same abilities could be reorganized into levels with some abilities always available and others only available a limited number of times or doing more if powered at higher than base levels. The meta psionic abilities as well as psionic attack and defense modes could be turned into the class features and gained in some sort of progression through the levels along with Psionic Power Points allowing for meta psionics or additional activations of powers or extensions of powers for longer durations.
The end result would be a range of characters separate from mages, sorcerors and their derivatives but with equal power and balanced against the rest of 5e.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Last background post
1) a properly designed and balanced psion is not going to have unlimited higher powered abilities it’s unbalanced. That means you either use a straight points system or you use a leveled system like spell slots - if you hate the term spell slots I can understand, perhaps calling them power potentials or something can make them easier to swallow.
deleted comments not important here
4) the 2e, 3e, and even 4e psionics books have a well over 200 mostly non spell mimic abilities that could be updated to 5e very easily especially if uprating of powers is allowed (as it should be). So for those that don’t want spell duplicates I recommend getting a copy (digital or Hard copy) and take a stab or three at working out some sequences or subclasses.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
So that’s my thoughts so far - comments, questions and suggestions are welcome.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This is kind of all over the place. Maybe define what you believe psionics should be first.
Mechanically either make a separate class with the subclasses representing a different focus similar to what you described for 2e, or make other subclasses that Wotc hasn't done already for psionics (you say rogue, warrior and sorcerer have one already). If you really want it to be an entirely different "Spellcasting" then mechanically that has also already been done with Warlock's "Pact Magic" (to a lesser extent Ki Points). So it isn't out of the ordinary to make a separate resource for psionics either.
As near as I can tell it sounds like psionics basically benefits from effects similar to Subtle Spell Metamagic, and sul khatesh's Arcane Cataclysm's rider of "The area of each arcane burst then acts as an antimagic field for 1 hour. Sul Khatesh and spells she casts are unaffected by these fields." Specifically Sul Khatesh's ability to ignore her own antimagic fields, hence psionics could conceivable ignore the normal spell antimagic field, or wild magic zones I suppose.
I personally am neutral on the idea of psionics, however psionics feels closer to science fiction so I can see it in spell jammer for the most part.
I mean, the best way to keep it balanced is to not try to design a separate system at all. 😝
To keep it simple I'd say create a Sorcerer sub-class but build it around a core feature like:
I think this strikes a reasonable balance by keeping your lower level spells easier to use and harder to counter, but the higher level ones remain vulnerable for balance. Thematically you could justify it as the more powerful spells being manifested using psionics, but still having to draw some of their energy from the Weave, so they are not immune?
This avoids the need to go into designing a whole new system or class, and would give us a psionic full caster. Not sure what the other features of the sub-class should be; maybe spells that can be counter/dispelled count as one level higher (to make them harder but not impossible to end)?
Update: Originally I tied this feature to proficiency then realised that would just make it a steal for multiclassing (every full casting class would take a level in Psionic Sorcerer just to gain this feature if it scaled by character level like that), so I tied it to sorcerer level instead.
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The point Haravikk, is not to simulate a psionic with magic which is what you did, but to go ahead and do the work to actually creat a workable balanced psionics system for 5e because, for some of us, a simulation is not acceptable.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Bumpkins, yes it’s sort of all over the place - it’s initial ideas/brainstorming in response to others thoughts and my own - your seeing the very early begining steps of the creation process. It will be a full blown class with a separate mechanic than the weave/spellcasting and it won’t be available in DDB because it’s a class not a subclass. Are there any pieces of the jumble you like. Dislike? Have comments or ideas/extensions of to share?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Everything in D&D is a simulation; the key thing is to identify the minimum amount you need mechanically to be able to play a character that feels like a psionic, while minimising work and balance issues for yourself.
If you want psionics to be balanced against regular spellcasting then the easiest way is to base it on regular spellcasting, because this avoids you having to come up with a bunch of spell-like effects, most of which will be reinventing the wheel or copying existing spells anyway. It also ensures balance because it's using the same basic mechanics for spells.
What you need are the parts that let you reskin it all as psionics; having unblockable spells certainly achieves part of that. We already have feats for telepathy and telekinesis for those if a player wants them, as well as the telekinesis spell at higher levels. Basically the non-blockable aspect is the main thing that we're lacking, once you have that you've got yourself the toolkit to play as a psionic full caster or half-caster, or whatever you want to bolt it onto.
An alternative would just be to roll the feature I gave above into a feat; base it off the proficiency bonus (i.e- spells with a level below the proficiency bonus are harder to counteract etc.) and you've got "psionics" you can apply to any casting class. Personally I still think Sorcerer is the better base, since they're more about a form of innate spellcasting, but it's an option anyway.
My point is to try not to overcomplicate it, otherwise you're just creating more work for yourself, and making balancing it a lot harder.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I'm with Haravikk on this, although I realize it will never satisfy everyone. Think of spells as encapsulated abilities and spellcasting as a way to access those abilities. It really does feel a bit stubborn to want to break completely from a system that gets you 80% of what you need.
The other change I'd suggest in addition to Haravikk's suggestion is to have them use the Spell Points optional rules rather than spell slots. I think this would make them feel sufficiently different to play unless you happen to already use those rules.
But if that's not acceptable, I'd suggest combing the internets for existing psionic homebrew. There's plenty of it out there and one of them most likely already has everything you want. Lack of psionics in 5e is not a new problem and you don't need to start from 0.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
First off do not make any part of this new class not counterable by magic. Dispell magic and counterspell must work to remove or stop the effects of psionics otherwise its far to powerful.
Obviously this allows you to have an ability that counters or dispells magic.
write up your class features, hit dice, ability score requirements, proficienties. Don't just say lets base it on.
decide if your psionic abilities will scale up with your level. If so write up each base psionic ability.
Decide on how you want the abilities to be cast. Do you want them to use points from a point pool, Do you want them to mirror spell casters and use the slot method.
I personally like point pool. Something like Int plus Wis times level. Casting costs 10 points per level cast.
Decide on how many psionic abilities you start with. I would go with 3 or 4 and add one every third level. Remember these scale so telekinesis will eventually cover all telekinesis type spells and may even surpass them. Fly is just self telekinesis when you have the power to lift yourself.
As TheGnome also mentioned it'll be easier to discuss when we see the full blown class with its separate mechanics. Brainstorming in general is great and all, but I mainly wanted to see what you felt was a proper psionics class from your perspective. That provides a framework for reviewing the mechanics going forward.
Additionally, the Mystic was one attempt at Psionics as a full class for 5e (Unearthed Arcana back in 2017). You will have to piece it together as it was UA that then became a few of the subclasses you've already mentioned (like the Soulknife). That "*******" site does have some of the pieces. So how was this a good/bad psionic's class? You could certainly use it as a baseline for concerns of "balance." Though you only need to be about 3/4's balance considering the amount of bloat, and power creep since 5e's release...Mystic actually might be "balanced" now relative to things post-Tasha's lol. I never played one myself however.
Let me reiterate AGAIN - if all you are offering is spellcasting reskinned don’t bother this thread is not aimed at you it is aimed at and intended for those that are willing to try to develop an entirely ( or close to entirely- nothing is ever totally new these days) new system that balances with magic but clearly isn’t magic to those that understand magic.
Gnome, I’m actually thinking just the opposite - neither psionics nor magic should be able to counter the other if they can then they are really the same thing and that is what I, at least, am trying to get away from.
I think the first thing is to sort out exactly how psionics and magic are different and what features they will have in common so as to be able to balance them against each other. The details of the powers/abilities should fall in line naturally then. Will they scale with psion level? Almost certainly - exactly how is a question I don’t have answers for yet.
How will abilities be activated? Not sure yet but right now I’m leaning to a mix of slot and points some of that will depend on how I see abilities stacking and linking into sequences of power. ( remember this is very early on I haven’t gone thru the 2e & 3e manuals ranking abilities for relive power in years. 3e does more of this than 2e if I recall correctly. I don’t expect this to be done by the end of Summer let alone July or this coming week.)
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You have to allow magic and psionic effects to interact with each other.
A fighter and magic user can effect each others attacks. The fighter can strike the MU and stop the spell, the mu can hold person on the fighter and stop him. If a MU casts hold person on an pcionic what happens? His mind is not held. He can attack right back. Sort of unbalanced. What if the psionic controls someones mind. Can a Cleric or MU dispel the control?
They can interact without being the same thing. In fact they must or the game is unbalanced.
Do not look to back write ups about psionics in D&D. for this they were all wrong and your writing the correct one.
This is incorrect mechanically speaking. hold person inflicts the paralyzed. The paralyzed condition inflicts incapacitated, in addition to the target not being able to move or speak. The target still can't take actions even with their mind despite that being weird narratively because they're still incapacitated.
I doubt d&d beyond will like me linking this, but here is roughly what the Mystic was (5e's psionic), and their abilities (called Talents and Disciplines). Use this for inspiration/balance. It used two things: Psi Points, and Psi Limit. Psi Points are used by Disciplines (which are a bundle of abilities with each ability having a cost of psi points). Psi Limit is the amount of times you can use a Discipline ability regardless if you have leftover Psi Points (if I interpreted it correctly). Have fun!
Mystic Class (Soul Knife subclass selected)
Psionic Abilities
This is were the duplicative nature of 3e psionics began.
1) Declare that magic and psionics have no interaction.
2) Retcon every high-level monster to have both magic AND psi resistance to restore balance.
3) Copy every spell remotely related to psionics into a separate psionic power.
4) Create Counterpsi and Dispel Psionics spells for spellcasters, and give Counterspell and Dispel Magic to psions to balance them against each other.
4) End up with psionics users that are functionally spellcasters with twice as many rules.
It is productive to consider systems where we don't start with (1). It's also worth noting that the (non-)interaction between psionics and magic has never been so absolute as you're making it out to be.
Nothing too weird about it. Spellcasters can't concentrate on spells when incapacitated, so it makes sense that the mentally demanding discipline of psionics would also be impossible.