If you were around this forum around the start of the new year, you probably saw this thread with an early draft of a class that a buddy and I had been working on. Well, after many more months of feedback, playtesting, ideation, and hard work, we're excited to release a beta launch of a new PDF centered around the class.
The wealthy weapon collector raises his eyebrow at the oncoming highwaymen. They assumed he was unarmed, and while the collector had no weapon on his person, he wasn’t without them. As his golden weapons begin to shoot out from golden portals, the collector relaxes into the seat of his carriage, comfortable knowing that the bandits would soon be dealt with.
The charming dancer pleases the audience with her impressive ax juggling, but the audience is completely beguiled when the glowing axes suddenly disappear into thin air. That is, except for the dancer’s quarry in the front row, who suddenly feels a blade in his torso. Bounties paid more than show business anyways.
The elven commander was a legend among their troops. They were known for having lost both hands in battle, yes, but they were even more well-known for being able to control their vast collection of weapons with subtle movements of their body. The saying went that so long as their commander could move their eyes, the army would remain undefeated.
Armigers are manipulators of weapons in a way that no one else is. Able to control weapons via the connections they create with their arsenals, armigers aren’t just defined by their unique power or by their incredible presence, but by their bonds.
The armiger is a weapon manipulator class that treads on the archetypes of bladedancers and swordmages. Not to be confused with "gishes", the armiger isn't necessarily a spellcaster (though one subclass gives you some warlock spellcasting). They're a weapon master first and foremost, but they connect with their weapons so profoundly that they can control them like a practiced telekinetic. According to TVTropes, this archetype is called a Master of the Levitating Blades.
If you've ever wanted to be Gilgamesh, Emiya/Archer, Noctus, Tenten, or a dozen other examples of this archetype, then the Armiger is the class for you.
<=========]=o
This beta launch includes the most updated version of the armiger class, with a new subclass - the Spartan Inheritance - in celebration of the PDF release. Of course, this passion project is ongoing. As mentioned at the end of the document, we have plans to keep working on the project until we have a full-on supplement.
For now, please enjoy the Armiger and please send us any feedback! Some of the best support we've gotten is simply people engaging with the class and telling us their thoughts.
Do the items you can store in your arsenal overlap with weapons you can store in your arsenal?
Being able to use Sword Burst as an action, bonus action, and reaction is wild strong. If the whole class was built around that, you probably still would be on par with other classes.
What's the point of Vanguard's Telekinesis instead of just giving them Mage Hand? I get that it's supposed to limit control to the weapons, but as written I don't really see a time it would ever come up, especially with Grand Strike and other ways to maneuver them.
Is Grand Strike am action? Is it part of the attack action? It's not clear, and that makes the rest of the associated abilities confusing as well.
Having Cloud of Daggers and Spirit Guardians as a spell seems a little redundant imo. That one might just be me, though.
Why does Warding Arsenal give your Cha as a bonus instead of the number of weapons in your arsenal? I get that they can usually be the same number but that's not always the case and it seems weird.
Strategic Commander is a cool ability, but might bog down gameplay too much. It's still very strong to just have it occur once with your choosing the willing creatures to swap.
When your weapons return to you, you should just decide on whether they're floating or in the arsenal or in your hand. Having all 3 might be clunky. (again, this one might just be my opinion)
Links recharging on a short rest in general might be too strong, but for that one I'm unsure without play testing.
The difference between a bonded weapon and a regular weapon kinda got lost on me while reading, especially since so many abilities at lvl10+ let you affect weapons whether they're bonded or not.
It seems like you go through a lot of trouble to make sure the armory is separate from a demiplane, only to equate it to one at the end. I think if you called it a demiplane from the beginning, and described the abilities within the context of it being a demi plane, that'd make it clearer.
It's a very cool class idea. At first I was going to say that it should just be a fighter subclass, but it's got enough going for it to warrant being its own class. I ask all these questions because I'm interested, and want to see the concept refined to a point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Saw this reply AFTER finishing the v1.2 update that actually addresses some of the things you brought up. You may want to take another look when you get the chance!
But, I'm thankful for your feedback and am responding to you point-by-point, and I am making some last minute changes in response to your feedback. So much so, I'm updating the doc to V1.2.1.
Do the items you can store in your arsenal overlap with weapons you can store in your arsenal?
The limits are counted separately since Vanguards can't even store unbonded weapons until Manifest Armory at 14 anyways. At level 1, you can have Charisma modifier weapons to bond (and therefore store in the armory) AND you have Charisma modifier items that you can store separately. Most (read: all) other features only work with bonded weapons. So, there's no real overlap.
Being able to use Sword Burst as an action, bonus action, and reaction is wild strong. If the whole class was built around that, you probably still would be on par with other classes.
We took your feedback to heart. We still wanted it to be a bit better than normal since weapon manipulation is their thing, but we got rid of the bonus action use. Just action or reaction.
What's the point of Vanguard's Telekinesis instead of just giving them Mage Hand? I get that it's supposed to limit control to the weapons, but as written I don't really see a time it would ever come up, especially with Grand Strike and other ways to maneuver them.
Frankly, to keep the theme and spirit of the Vanguard undiluted. Plus, it gets stronger as they level up in Greater Weapon Manipulation and Superior Weapon Manipulation. So we needed a way to be able to describe that progress of advancement.
Also, Grand Strike only launches weapons for attack. It's an attack action, so you wouldn't get much mileage out of it for utility purposes. We wanted to make sure there were rules to support people in playing the swordmancers/bladedancers of their dreams.
Is Grand Strike am action? Is it part of the attack action? It's not clear, and that makes the rest of the associated abilities confusing as well.
As the language hopefully says clearly enough, "as an Attack action" you use Grand Strike. So, it's an Attack action in and of itself. This is similar to language found in other abilities that modify normal attacks, but we'll see if we can clarify it even better.
Why does Warding Arsenal give your Cha as a bonus instead of the number of weapons in your arsenal? I get that they can usually be the same number but that's not always the case and it seems weird.
For balancing, to minimize resource tracking (your number of weapons could fluctuate more often than your Charisma modifier does), and to keep some internal consistency in design choices for easier learning and playing (many other abilities follow a similar ruling).
Besides, as a Vanguard levels up, they can have up to 20 bonded weapons at Level 13. A +20 bonus to AC is kinda crazy. So, hopefully, that makes sense. +20 to most anything is powerful, so we wanted to separate the number of bonded weapons being used in a calculation.
Strategic Commander is a cool ability, but might bog down gameplay too much. It's still very strong to just have it occur once with your choosing the willing creatures to swap.
We also (and many other people who've looked at the class) enjoy the novelty of the ability, too. We've already simplified and nerfed it in v1.2, so hopefully, it's fun and doesn't bog down play. It's a novel ability meant to encourage a moment of team cooperation and tactics since 1 swap can be a great boon if used well.
When your weapons return to you, you should just decide on whether they're floating or in the arsenal or in your hand. Having all 3 might be clunky. (again, this one might just be my opinion)
The option to choose has a lot of tactical and flavorful implications, and we wanted to make sure people could play the character they envisioned. If you want to be like Gilgamesh from the FATE series who uses his "armory" (his Gates of Babylon) to summon and desummon weapons, you can. If you instead want to be like Irelia of League of Legends who always has her weapons hovering around her, you can. We think more options (within reason) is always a good thing.
The difference between a bonded weapon and a regular weapon kinda got lost on me while reading, especially since so many abilities at lvl10+ let you affect weapons whether they're bonded or not.
The only thing you can do with nonbonded weapons as a Vanguard is manipulate them as Telekinesis/Mage Hand at level 13 (Superior Weapon Manipulation), or store them in your Manifest Armory at level 14. We'll see if we can clear up that language.
It seems like you go through a lot of trouble to make sure the armory is separate from a demiplane, only to equate it to one at the end. I think if you called it a demiplane from the beginning, and described the abilities within the context of it being a demi plane, that'd make it clearer.
We had the same realization, thanks! We already made that change in v1.2! The armory is as demiplane.
It's a very cool class idea. At first I was going to say that it should just be a fighter subclass, but it's got enough going for it to warrant being its own class. I ask all these questions because I'm interested, and want to see the concept refined to a point.
Thank you so much! Your feedback and interest is beyond value! I hope you stay in touch and even try out a vanguard one day!
I don't have time to read through the whole thing, but at a glance the new language clears up a lot of my questions and concerns.
I did think of one more minor question though, which might have already been answered (but like I said, I don't have much time to read today): how do magic weapons interact with the Armory/bonding? Does it happen the same way as nonmagical items? Is there a limit to magic items if so?
This might already be answered, but in my quick scan I couldn't find it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Yes, magic weapons are treated like any other weapons for the Vanguard's Armory and Bonded Weaponry feature, which is why there isn't a statement about how they interact since they interact by default like any other weapons. Though, I did add one parenthetical to the Bonded Weaponry in response to your questions.
The closest other thing to an exception is the sentence under Bonded Weaponry that describes weapons that have attunement options.
But beyond that, a Vanguard is able to have an arsenal made of up all bonded magic weapons if they desire (though I imagine this might be very inconvenient to do at lower levels, especially when factoring in DM magic weapon giving). In fact, this is an intentional design choice that is encouraged by the additional attunement slots at 13th and 20th level that can only be used to attune to weapons.
We're excited to announce the release of a PDF with the most updated version of the armiger. The OP has been edited at the top of this thread with more information.
[MAJOR RELEASE UPDATE]
If you were around this forum around the start of the new year, you probably saw this thread with an early draft of a class that a buddy and I had been working on. Well, after many more months of feedback, playtesting, ideation, and hard work, we're excited to release a beta launch of a new PDF centered around the class.
o=[=========>
Presenting
The Van Docks' Arsenal of Armigers:
Manipulate your weapons with the Armiger, Scion of their bonded arsenal.
The armiger is a weapon manipulator class that treads on the archetypes of bladedancers and swordmages. Not to be confused with "gishes", the armiger isn't necessarily a spellcaster (though one subclass gives you some warlock spellcasting). They're a weapon master first and foremost, but they connect with their weapons so profoundly that they can control them like a practiced telekinetic. According to TVTropes, this archetype is called a Master of the Levitating Blades.
If you've ever wanted to be Gilgamesh, Emiya/Archer, Noctus, Tenten, or a dozen other examples of this archetype, then the Armiger is the class for you.
<=========]=o
This beta launch includes the most updated version of the armiger class, with a new subclass - the Spartan Inheritance - in celebration of the PDF release. Of course, this passion project is ongoing. As mentioned at the end of the document, we have plans to keep working on the project until we have a full-on supplement.
For now, please enjoy the Armiger and please send us any feedback! Some of the best support we've gotten is simply people engaging with the class and telling us their thoughts.
Do the items you can store in your arsenal overlap with weapons you can store in your arsenal?
Being able to use Sword Burst as an action, bonus action, and reaction is wild strong. If the whole class was built around that, you probably still would be on par with other classes.
What's the point of Vanguard's Telekinesis instead of just giving them Mage Hand? I get that it's supposed to limit control to the weapons, but as written I don't really see a time it would ever come up, especially with Grand Strike and other ways to maneuver them.
Is Grand Strike am action? Is it part of the attack action? It's not clear, and that makes the rest of the associated abilities confusing as well.
Having Cloud of Daggers and Spirit Guardians as a spell seems a little redundant imo. That one might just be me, though.
Why does Warding Arsenal give your Cha as a bonus instead of the number of weapons in your arsenal? I get that they can usually be the same number but that's not always the case and it seems weird.
Strategic Commander is a cool ability, but might bog down gameplay too much. It's still very strong to just have it occur once with your choosing the willing creatures to swap.
When your weapons return to you, you should just decide on whether they're floating or in the arsenal or in your hand. Having all 3 might be clunky. (again, this one might just be my opinion)
Links recharging on a short rest in general might be too strong, but for that one I'm unsure without play testing.
The difference between a bonded weapon and a regular weapon kinda got lost on me while reading, especially since so many abilities at lvl10+ let you affect weapons whether they're bonded or not.
It seems like you go through a lot of trouble to make sure the armory is separate from a demiplane, only to equate it to one at the end. I think if you called it a demiplane from the beginning, and described the abilities within the context of it being a demi plane, that'd make it clearer.
It's a very cool class idea. At first I was going to say that it should just be a fighter subclass, but it's got enough going for it to warrant being its own class. I ask all these questions because I'm interested, and want to see the concept refined to a point.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
But, I'm thankful for your feedback and am responding to you point-by-point, and I am making some last minute changes in response to your feedback. So much so, I'm updating the doc to V1.2.1.
The limits are counted separately since Vanguards can't even store unbonded weapons until Manifest Armory at 14 anyways. At level 1, you can have Charisma modifier weapons to bond (and therefore store in the armory) AND you have Charisma modifier items that you can store separately. Most (read: all) other features only work with bonded weapons. So, there's no real overlap.
We took your feedback to heart. We still wanted it to be a bit better than normal since weapon manipulation is their thing, but we got rid of the bonus action use. Just action or reaction.
Frankly, to keep the theme and spirit of the Vanguard undiluted. Plus, it gets stronger as they level up in Greater Weapon Manipulation and Superior Weapon Manipulation. So we needed a way to be able to describe that progress of advancement.
Also, Grand Strike only launches weapons for attack. It's an attack action, so you wouldn't get much mileage out of it for utility purposes. We wanted to make sure there were rules to support people in playing the swordmancers/bladedancers of their dreams.
As the language hopefully says clearly enough, "as an Attack action" you use Grand Strike. So, it's an Attack action in and of itself. This is similar to language found in other abilities that modify normal attacks, but we'll see if we can clarify it even better.
You're right it is! We agree, and we already got rid of Spirit Guardians in the V1.2 update. ;)
For balancing, to minimize resource tracking (your number of weapons could fluctuate more often than your Charisma modifier does), and to keep some internal consistency in design choices for easier learning and playing (many other abilities follow a similar ruling).
Besides, as a Vanguard levels up, they can have up to 20 bonded weapons at Level 13. A +20 bonus to AC is kinda crazy. So, hopefully, that makes sense. +20 to most anything is powerful, so we wanted to separate the number of bonded weapons being used in a calculation.
We also (and many other people who've looked at the class) enjoy the novelty of the ability, too. We've already simplified and nerfed it in v1.2, so hopefully, it's fun and doesn't bog down play. It's a novel ability meant to encourage a moment of team cooperation and tactics since 1 swap can be a great boon if used well.
The option to choose has a lot of tactical and flavorful implications, and we wanted to make sure people could play the character they envisioned. If you want to be like Gilgamesh from the FATE series who uses his "armory" (his Gates of Babylon) to summon and desummon weapons, you can. If you instead want to be like Irelia of League of Legends who always has her weapons hovering around her, you can. We think more options (within reason) is always a good thing.
Almost every single response said the same thing, so we changed it to a long rest in v1.1 (before v1.2 even) and updated link costs appropriately.
The only thing you can do with nonbonded weapons as a Vanguard is manipulate them as Telekinesis/Mage Hand at level 13 (Superior Weapon Manipulation), or store them in your Manifest Armory at level 14. We'll see if we can clear up that language.
We had the same realization, thanks! We already made that change in v1.2! The armory is as demiplane.
Thank you so much! Your feedback and interest is beyond value! I hope you stay in touch and even try out a vanguard one day!
I don't have time to read through the whole thing, but at a glance the new language clears up a lot of my questions and concerns.
I did think of one more minor question though, which might have already been answered (but like I said, I don't have much time to read today): how do magic weapons interact with the Armory/bonding? Does it happen the same way as nonmagical items? Is there a limit to magic items if so?
This might already be answered, but in my quick scan I couldn't find it.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Yes, magic weapons are treated like any other weapons for the Vanguard's Armory and Bonded Weaponry feature, which is why there isn't a statement about how they interact since they interact by default like any other weapons. Though, I did add one parenthetical to the Bonded Weaponry in response to your questions.
The closest other thing to an exception is the sentence under Bonded Weaponry that describes weapons that have attunement options.
But beyond that, a Vanguard is able to have an arsenal made of up all bonded magic weapons if they desire (though I imagine this might be very inconvenient to do at lower levels, especially when factoring in DM magic weapon giving). In fact, this is an intentional design choice that is encouraged by the additional attunement slots at 13th and 20th level that can only be used to attune to weapons.
We're excited to announce the release of a PDF with the most updated version of the armiger. The OP has been edited at the top of this thread with more information.
Behold!
The Van Docks' Arsenal of Armigers: Manipulate your weaponry with the armiger, scion of their bonded arsenal!