We don't have to see eye to eye. This is an option that Kell_Swiftfire is giving and I'm drawing inspiration from for players and DMs who want something a little more rewarding than 1-13 points of damage difference for fully optimizing a DPR Striker out of the Warlock class. If you don't want that, that's ok. You don't have to use our homebrews. My own DM doesn't even want to use some of the stuff I came up with and that's fine. Ironically, he approved the stuff that buffed damaged and rejected my Eldritch OverCharge idea, which is objectively worse than the accursed Specter.
I'm looking at this from a game design perspective. We're spitballing new ideas and seeing if they stick. I think Hexblade's need to be DPR Strikers. Thematically, that seems appropriate.
Hexblade is popular... which, let's be honest, is only thanks to Critical role.
Hexblade is so close to being a class that I dream about. A class that represents what happens when you make a pact with a sentient weapon. However, does it have to be from the Shadowfell? Why is this class so limited and narrow? Why does it cost so much to do more damage than Eldritch Blast with such a thin margin of damage? If you have those questions, this class overhaul is for you. If not, that's fine too. Enjoy the class as written.
Some people only play rules as written. To those people, I say... Enjoy breaking your DM over your knee with multi-classing.
Personally i play Hexblade since 4th Ed, loved it back then, still kinda like it now, at least its the class that offers the most modularity with the Patron+Pacts+Eldritch Invocations compared to others.
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"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Good lord. The 4th Edition Hexblade is beastly. Oh what's this MULTIPLE patrons for the Hexblade? You get a +3 blade with a d10 at level one, or a +2 blade with a d12? They have their own unique designs? Makes me want to play fourth edition... I'm guessing there's not a DnDBeyond for fourth edition tho.
In total, the average damage for a FULLY optimized BASE Hexblade is...
96.5 DPR.
Where did that extra damage come from? Well, really three things.
Accursed Specter, Booming Blade, and a Greatsword attack. Which means for Eldritch Blast, the FULLY optimized DPR is... NOTE: This is damage at level 20. Booming Blade becomes less viable after a certain point where doubling a static modifier is better than the cantrip, since the cantrip gets rid of you second attack. So Booming Blade IS NOT a part of the final calculation.
90.5 DPR (or 102.5 DPR if your dm approves fall damage.)
So the base class does more damage than I originally thought. However, the damage is so varied and conditional and just plain weird.
Booming Blade breaks the damage ceiling at levels 5-10, putting the hexblade FAR AND AHEAD of other classes when it comes to damage, kind of keeps pace with other classes from levels 10-12, 12-17 is a gray area because of Life-drinker, and then at level 17ish - 20, it's better to attack twice, because your static modifier is that good, but only if you have enough spell slots for Eldritich Smite. Which, if you Hex, you got three to four slots. Then it comes down to whether or not Booming blade with one attack or two attacks without Eldritch Smite are worth it. When you have no Eldritch Smites left, your DPR is 71 when you attack with Booming Blade, and also 71 when you attack twice. Attacking twice becomes the answer because you don't have to wait for them to move.
Does this mean that the re-balance/overhaul is totally unnecessary?
No.
71 DPR without Eldritch Smite or... 90.5/102.5. Which choice is better? It's still Eldritch Blast.
So the turns would look like this...
First encounter: Three/four turns attacking with Hexblade. The rest are Eldritch Blast... and you don't have spells.
Second Encounter: You spent the whole time roleplaying trying to get a short rest, you didn't get it, now all you can do is Eldritch Blast. You become a meme and your party thinks you are annoying.
Third Encounter: You are still Eldritch blasting. This is literally all you have. You are an Eldritch Blast machine gun. Just look forward to using your sword tomorrow dude. Tomorrow in game, so like hopefully a week from now. Chad powergamer with multiclassed Cleric-Sorcerer-Wizard is making fun of you for being so reliant on short rests. He is determined never to take one so the table can all say Eldritch BLAST really loudly at the same time when you attack. This session is the third one in a row that you haven't gotten a short rest and you are still on the same day as you were three weeks ago. Life is sad.
My Overhaul, not Kriegehexe's, does 102 DPR without Eldritch Smite. That's about the same as Eldritch Blast with fall damage. Since DMs are unlikely to grant fall damage, this means that using the Hexblade is now ALWAYS the first choice in most cases. These calculations are going to go with the build that got approved by my DM, so I'm still using accursed Specter.
So now, your action economy looks like this.
First Encounter: Attack with Hexblade, don't worry about burning all your special skills to make using the Hexblade worth it, it already does more damage without them than Eldritch Blast does. You can attack normally and conserve your spells. At lower levels your attacking once and using booming blade. 1-10 really. At level 11 and up, you are attacking three times. You might use one Eldritch Smite and you Specter friend to finish an enemy for fun. You still have 3-5 slots left and they AREN'T using your spells. Booya. Life is good.
Second Encounter: Still attacking with Hexblade. Maybe Counterspell to impress your friends. They didn't know you can do that. Oh and it's cast at the highest (5th) level, so you know it actually worked. You're not worried about saving spell slots for Eldritch Smite, because they don't use spell slots. The Gish synergy is on. You still have spell slots left if you are past a certain level or have rod of the pact keeper. You did tons of damage, had a few flashy hits here and there. Your team values your impressive action economy, and even though you don't do as much damage as the rogue assassin, your counterspell is greatly appreciated.
Third Encounter: This is the last encounter of the day. You haven't used Eldritch Blast one time. But now you have to take out a guard from a tower from 250 feet away. You have invested two invocations and a feat into Eldritch Blast and now it's time to show it off. You cast it, the first bolt misses, but the second bolt lands, and due to repelling blast, this sends the guard 5 feet away from the tower, 40 feet in the air. Your team has NEVER seen you use this spell before and are SHOCKED and SURPRISED that you used this awesome cantrip you used so effectively. You respond by saying "Usually I just rely on my sword, but I always like to be prepared." You look super cool. You put sunglasses on as the guard falls 40 feet to the ground right into a fireball the wizard set up by SNEAKING FORWARD 100 feet. The female rogue grabs onto your leg, you pose as an artist paints your picture and it gets published as the front cover of the next DnD sourcebook. Well maybe that doesn't happen, lol. But by the time you actually USE Eldritch Blast, it's more meaningful, because it does something that the Hexblade can't. Long range damage. You don't have to use that spell as a crutch for regular damage. Ever.
Okay this is what really happens.
Your team has NEVER seen you use this spell before and are SHOCKED and SURPRISED that you used this awesome cantrip you used so effectively. They spend the rest of the session complaining about how overpowered that cantrip is and try to nerf you while you defend yourself with the rulebook.
Good lord. The 4th Edition Hexblade is beastly. Oh what's this MULTIPLE patrons for the Hexblade? You get a +3 blade with a d10 at level one, or a +2 blade with a d12? They have their own unique designs? Makes me want to play fourth edition... I'm guessing there's not a DnDBeyond for fourth edition tho.
Yeah, the Hexblade would take a Patron like the Warlock does, and each Patron would offer a different Pact Weapon and different Class features.
Till last year the 4th Ed character builder and compendium was still only on WOTC site, but it was only for those that had a DDinsider or something subscription, they ceased the service a few months ago.
There's online or dllable apps/creators fo 4th, Hero Labs from Whitewolf studios is a good and exhaustive one with ALL the published content for 4th available.
The thing was that Hexblade was a "Variant Class" all togheter, even if it shared some mechanics and spells/powers with the Warlock( wich sometimes could be problematic, cause outside of a few powers specificaly made for the hexblade, everything else was ranged or AoE powers).
Infernal Hexblade was amongts the most durable and brutal, sinc your Main Stat was CON and CHA, so Infernal Blades where generaly beefy boys, and just like current Fiend Dark one's blessing, you'll get THP when a creature dies in proximity of you.
There was issues as well with the class, it was heavely dependant on magic items and some feats to work properly( back then you gained a feat every 3 levels AND an ASI every 4 levels), since Hexblades exclusives powers like At-will attack and some encounters Dailies had keywords like Arcane AND weapon/melee (those where the only instances of Powers having those keywords combination), you could get some cheese by taking feats/items that could boost one type or the other, and your Hexblade specific powers/spels would benefit greatly from it.
Arcane Implement Proficiency was one of such feats, where it would let you Add the proficency of your Arcane focus/implement to your damage rolls.
The thing was that in order for an Hexblade to conjure his PAct weapon, you HAD to have an arcane focus in one hand, and then you could summon the weapon in your other hand, the Weapon would use its Dice damage and other traits it had from the Pact, AND it would gain the enhancement, traits, abilities from the Implement used to summon it...
And if you took a Multiclassing feat( MC worked differently in 4th)with a class that used Blades/weapons as Arcan focus/implements like the Swordmage, then you could pick up a magic blade, and use it as an implement, and your Pact Weapon would inherit the Blade implement traits and powers...
That was one of the reasons why my Dm hated my Hexblade, and since i did roll a Revenant, he was hard to kill...
Yeah for some reasons he din't like the fact that i had a ONE HANDED blade that dealt D12+CON+CHA+AIP each time (i had like D12+10-15 dmg minimum at lvl 4..., it was kinda like Lifedrinker eldritch invocation nowadays)
Now the cheese is different, would have wished that they kept the concept of Different Patrons could give different Pact weapons fo an Hexblade, but hey, thats just how things are.
Allready done that, i Rped my Hexblade the way it worked in 4th, i have a Fiendish Patron(even though i'm an Hexblade PAtron warlock), that gave me a Pact Blade through wich he gives me his Powers and "guidance".
And with my Dm we discussed about it, and changed the 6th lvl feature for the Dark reaper feature.
A way to fix the Spectre is to simply add a line that says " Power of the Master; the Spectre receive a bonus to his Attack rolls, AC, Ability checks and Saves and spell DC's equal to the Hexblade Profiency, and his Hp is equal to the Warlock levels X 3+CON."
And maybe something like "The Spectre can apply the Hexblade curse on the target of its attacks, once it as placed the Curse it cannot do so until the next Long Rest, this application of the Hexblade Curse, doesn't use the Hexblade Curse of the character, a target can be victime of only One Hexblade Curse at a time."
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"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Its NIce, requires some real thight management, cause depending on the ratio Paladin-Warlock you'll more Spell slots than a straight Warlock, but they'll still melt like snow in the sun.
If you go minimal you'll end up with 3-4 Lv1 slots and 4 Pact Slots, lv1 slots are used for Support/utility spells or lv1 spells that are good, but doesn't scale( Shield of Faith, Protection from G&E, Detect Magic etc)
Use Pact slots for your Higher ends damage spells, or you best Defensive spells (Shadow of Moil/Mirror Image), if your DM lets you use UA content the Mind Thrust spell is a really, really usefull spell, its a lvl 2 spell, but it launches for a BA, for each lvl above 1st you can target more foes, the damage is decent while not amazing( only 3D6), but the real ability is that creatures that fails the INT save, can only use the dash or Disengage actions in their next turn, wich given the situation can save your arse.
If you go higher as a Paladin lets say 5 to 6th lvl, you'll add some lvl 2 slots, and get some higher spells on the Pally list, wich arn't bad, if your campaign as lots of Outdoors encounters and travel a Find Steed spell is always nice, specially with how the spell works( spells that only has a range of Self, can also affect your steed, wanna Horse ride like in Skyrim and say ****s to physics?, Spider Climb it is...), but then the higher you get as a Pally the less Pact Slots you will have, and Pact slots are the most important thing honestly.
Cause of course you wanna keep those Pact Slots for heavy spells or Divine Smites, i mean Divine Smiting on short rests is still something brutal.
Conquest Paladin can be fun, a bit more CC centric given its Channel Divinity; Conquering Presence.
And Guided strike is always a nice thing
Conquest paladin works best if you take it up to 7th lvl tho for its Aura of Conquest feature, and if you take spells that Frigthens the creatures, you have a pretty powerfull CC build.
You alos get Spiritual Weapon as a Subclass spell, wich is not a bad spell at all., its a different playstyle i shall say?
Whereas a Vengeance Paladin would be a bit more aggresive and In your face, the Conquest paladin has more CC capabilities due to his Features.
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"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Thats what i'm playing/aiming for right now in a Midgard campaign, its bad ass
Depending on how you play it it can be Punisher levels of bad ass, but yeah to go back to the topic, even as an Hexblade EB+ Agonizing Blast are still important, its always nice to have a multi D10+5 ranged attack.
If you can take the Spell Sniper feat at some point, having EB and ALL your ranged spels ignore covers (outside total) and double their range, can make you into a well rounded attacker; be it from afar, as well as up close.
Warcaster is always a must, since a lot of spells will have concentration and Mage Slayer while more situational is a good thing to have if you face spellcasters and its kinda thematic.
Also by lvl 6 if you play using UA rules for the classes overhaul, paladins get Spirit Guardians, wich is a darn good spell.
If doing more damage with a blade than with EB is not already sufficient "incentive" to use their blade, then I don't know why piling even more damage onto the equation is. Hexblades are already quite popular.
Ah well, guess we just don't see eye to eye.
Your math is flawed friend. Hexblades at every level after 1, do less damage on average than Blastlocks. This gets bad at level 11, and terrible after level 17.
Palcot is generally right that, the reason I'm working on this is to make a Hexblade 'viable' vs a blastlock.
I also have included usecases with Hexblades Curse and Hex, thought it's important to note that the benefits of Hex are canceled out as they also apply to Blastlocks. And Hexblades curse can only be used once per short rest until level 14, making it a pretty far cry from a feature that truly 'brings Hexblades back up' to Blastlock damage.
The core issue, again, is that Bladelocks need significantly higher invocation, spell, and boon investment to 'optimize' their class, and still do less damage (and have less flexibility) than if they were Blastlocks.
The best Hexblades in the game are any other warlock subclass with Armor of Shadows, Agonizing Blast, and Eldritch Blast (and a reskin for an arcane bow instead of an eldritch... blast).
One way to solve the issue would be to allow the use of the Hexblade curse a number of times per SR equal to your CHA mod.
Some classes with similar features has this = XXX Mod systeme, but since the Warlock was amongst the first classes to be made 5 years ago and they did not know how to balance things( they still kinda are clueless honestly imo), they pre-emptevily nerfed the Warlock, cause a Magical Gish character would have been deemed too powerfull ( i wonder if it was before or after they gave the paladins Divine Smite?...).
But now in retrospect, they agree that they where afraid for nothing, but they still are unwilling to correct the issues and instead give other useless shit( the UA Pact of the Talisman, is meh at best...)
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"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
One way to solve the issue would be to allow the use of the Hexblade curse a number of times per SR equal to your CHA mod.
Some classes with similar features has this = XXX Mod systeme, but since the Warlock was amongst the first classes to be made 5 years ago and they did not know how to balance things( they still kinda are clueless honestly imo), they pre-emptevily nerfed the Warlock, cause a Magical Gish character would have been deemed too powerfull ( i wonder if it was before or after they gave the paladins Divine Smite?...).
But now in retrospect, they agree that they where afraid for nothing, but they still are unwilling to correct the issues and instead give other useless shit( the UA Pact of the Talisman, is meh at best...)
Actually, I agree wholeheartedly! This is one of the features I've included in Krieghexe Full (still haven't hit 'publish' on it, but that's mostly for laziness. It's about 99% typed out).
I actually took inspiration from Paladin's Divine Smite and Cleric's Channel Divinity. In The War Witch: Path of the Krieghexe, Hexblade's Curse gets uses equal to your proficiency bonus, and resets on a long rest (this, because it also gets some additional buffs that would make it borderline op with 2 uses per short rest at level 1, and 4 uses per short rest at level 10 etc).
The full version makes Krieghexen on-par warriors with Eldritch Knights, and in many cases, rangers. They also have some incredible burst damage, but it only really comes 'online' once they've stacked a few abilities on a single target. I played a lot with the idea of 'stacking curses' on a target to slowly build your strength against it as the battle progresses. In a fight, this means they'll hold their own, and always do on average, 1-3 more points of damage per round than a Blastlock (as they should); more importantly though, it makes them extremely potent duelists, bost-bashers, and long-term, single target damage dealers. This balance feels really nice in playtests as it allows them to deal a damage-dealing role alongside Assassins, Fighters, Rangers, and Sorcererors, but fills an unfilled combat niche in the 'starts moderate and gets very strong' role (against one target). But as it takes a lot of bonus-action investment, it takes about 3 turns to really get everything online on a target... so when it dies, it takes another 3 turns to get back up to maximum damage output. The long rest reset helps make this -quite high- damage potential an issue of careful resource investment.
The way I describe it is 'Krieghexe Full may be able to solo-duel your party's boss/mini boss fight (especially after level 6 and 10), but will probably get overwhelmed by decent 2-3 mobs/guards that a fighter/paladin would have no problem dealing with (as they can bring their full damage potential online much quicker).
Have you considered that Warlocks of other Patrons might want to engage in melee combat and thus, will pick Pact of the Blade, only to be disappointed when this 'fix' doesn't work for them because you buffed a Patron and not a Pact Boon? Have you considered that Hexblade Warlocks could potentially pick up a different Pact Boon and gain all the benefits of this 'fix' in addition to being an otherwise optimised Warlock? Have you considered the ramifications of allowing someone using this 'fix' to multiclass this with Paladin or worse, Sorcerer?
In my opinion, the most balanced option wouldn't be to buff a Patron, but to buff the Pact Boon that urges players into melee in the first place. Thus, I think that we should be buffing Pact of the Blade with a lot of the options that the Hexblade actually gets RAW. For example, I think that Pact of the Blade should give players proficiency with medium armour and shields and the option to use Charisma for attack and damage rolls on top of the ability to summon a weapon that you're automatically proficient with. This is a similar change to what the College of Valour gives to the Bard; it gives them the tools they need to survive long enough in melee to do the things they want to do. They are not tanks, they only have a d8 Hit Die and still only get middling AC, but they can feasibly function as melee DPR without immediately being wiped off the face of the Prime Material Plane. Is it as good as Agonising Blast? It can actually be better with Great Weapon Master, heck even Green Flame Blade is comparable:
Agonising Blast at 17th level or higher = 4(1d10+5) = 42 avg dmg
Pact of the Blade at 14th level or higher (when you can both take Great Weapon Master and max your Charisma) = 2(2d6+15) = 44 avg dmg + Lifedrinker = 54 avg dmg
Pact of the Blade at 17th level or higher (wielding a Longsword using Green Flame Blade with two adjacent targets) = (4d8+5)+(3d8+5) = 41.5 avg dmg + Lifedrinker = 46.5 avg dmg
My solution allows a Warlock of any Patron to be adequate in melee, and makes it harder to make multiclass monstrosities as it now requires 3 levels to use your spellcasting stat for attack and damage instead of just one. You want it to be worth it to go into melee as a Warlock? There you go. Still think Agonising Blast is too strong? Ban the Invocation, now Eldritch Blast only does 22 avg dmg which is less than Green Flame Blade even if you only have one target. If you're concerned that Hexblade is too weak compared to other Patrons now, make Hexblade's Curse usable a number of times per long rest equal to your Charisma modifier. Pretty strong I'd say. Hexblade is meant to be the premier melee Patron, and adding your proficiency bonus to Agonising Blast is kinda dumb, so make Hexblade's Curse only apply to melee attacks. That would be how I would rework it.
It is not the Pact that help or makes the Hexblade good at melee( PotB only give you the ability to summon a magical weapon to your hands).
What makes Hexblade melee centric is the Hex Warrior feature and the few spells that the extended list give.
And giving the PotB ALL the benefits of the Hexblade, why even consider taking the Hexblade at all?...
Cause to be honest not all of the Hexblade features are that good, or they are ****** by the fact that they require the HB curse to work.
If you take the Hexblade only features that makes the subclass interesting, and give it to others, why even exist at all?...
In your example you take the Bard of Valor, but think for an instant that if you where to take What makes the Bard of valor, a Bard of Valor and give it to the other subclass, why bother with the Valor at all?...
If you take out a subclass defining features to make it accesible to everyone, you either make it obsolete or you need to go and design something else to replace it...
Now i do agree that the increase in the # of times you can use the Curse is one of the best ways to make Hexblade more interesting, without the need for arse over head new mechanics( the simpler it is, the better it is).
But i'm also not a fan at all to essentially Gut out a subclass of his ONE and ONLY defining feature to give it to everyone.
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"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Hey :) I don't want to come across as rude. I simply have to disagree massively with the fundamental notion of this post. (sorry if i missed some houserule, optional rule or similar that would change everything but i dont think i did.) I will back up my claims with some reasonably mathy estimations. I agree the hexblade needs to be fixed. It needs the likely strongest nerf of all subclasses in 5e due to how utterly overpowered and game breaking it is. You seem to care about levels 17-20 so lets start there. Assume this character: Half elf, 20 Cha, Feats: PAM, GWM, EAcc. Using a Halberd +3 due to improved pact weapon (most players will have something else at level20) further we will assume you have lifedrinker eldritch smite and thirsting blade. I would recommend a MC if you want more power to really break the game. 3 or 6 levels of paladin (vengance) but its not necessary for this argument in the slightest. I will assume you have a way to gain advantage. that could be vengance paladin channel divinity or a maneuver or flanking or prone (ie from a smite) or attacking from hidden or shadow of moil or one of many other options. If you find yourself in a turn where you just cant get advantage use your spells. your still a full caster with access all the way to 9th level magic and more 5th level spells than any other class. So here the damage calculation (note at adv against a hexblade curse target your crit rate is 27%) (with PAM i will assume a rate for AoO to be 0.7 as no target can move towards or away from you. In many games this 0.7 is a rather low estimate) (assuming an AC of 20. that gives you a to hit of 87.5% (yes i ofc did account for -5 GWM) not factoring in any bless, bond or similar improvements, hit rate is not factored into the calculation - just multiply the non crit part (as ofc crits always hit) by 0.875 if you want to account for AC.) (I will be assuming 2 encounters between short rests at 2 rests per day that's 6 encounters per day. Of course your mileage may vary feel free to adapt the math to what suits your case best.)
attacks*(weapon+hex+magic+cha+hexblades curse+GWM+lifedrinker) + (back end weapon+hex+magic+cha+hexblades curse+GWM+lifedrinker) at 3.5 attacks assuming 1 crit is about average. I will therefore add 1 of 3 smites that you have per short rest that's Weapon damage+hex damage+Eldritch smite(5th level) (note the back end damage turns into full damage if you kill a creature with that attack. not assumed here.)
2.5*(1d10+1d6+5+3+6+10+5)+(1d4+1d6+5+3+6+10+5)+(1d10+1d6+6d8*2)=193 dmg Comparison: EB+AB of non hexblade with max Cha: 4*(1d10+5+1d6) = 56 dmg If we really consider AB to be "the best way to deal damage" than we got a big problem here. Yes one did expend a lot more resources. but even without a smite or hex EBAB+hex stands no chance. and if we factor in magic items things get really crazy. Honestly at lv 20 i dont even think all of this is "gamebreaking" - its strong. very strong. but simulacrums and wish now exist so well. I think the real issue is at level 5 and 8. Assuming V human (or even better now with TCE Custom Linneage, and it gets really crazy if your dm allows racial feats for a "custom linneage half elf") looking at level 5 this character has PAM + GWM and 16 CHA I will do this calculation without factoring in Hit rate as AC varies too widely and adv is rather unreliable at this level. Keep in mind you have a -1 to hit (-5GWM 1improved weapon 3dex) Devils sight darkness is decent at this point. Smite is still good but crits are rather unreliable so i will also ignore those (~9.5% crit rate with curse) 2,5*(1d10+1d6+3+3+10+1)+(1d4+1d6+3+3+10+1)=88 dmg hex at that level can usually be used in every single fight. (thats 6 times a day). Comparison EB AB (CHA 18): 2*(d10+d6+4)=26 dmg Okay now we are in game breaking territory. And until level 11 EB will not get ANY (okay +1 @ 8 if you go CHA) better while those martial attacks will slowly gain EAcc and better magic weapons - at least improved pact weapon. Last but not least lets look at level 4. IMO the craziest point of all. EB does d10+d6+4=13 dmg Our little hexblade does 1,5*(1d10+1d6+3+3+10+1)+(1d4+1d6+3+3+10+1)=62 dmg at -1 hit yes. But this is nowhere close to any reasonable level of balance. (also make sure your cleric or paladin casts bless and bonus points for a bardic inspiration and a peace cleric bond to make absolutely sure you don't miss)
Honestly i do not know what you did that led you to believe hexblade cant match EBAB damage, (this isnt criticizing you i truly just dont know) Usually the damage that EBAB + hex does is considered "baseline damage" If what you do as a class is doing damage than any class can match this baseline (ignoring monks) Doing great damage is usually considered at least 150% of this baseline, depending on how many other things you can contribute. Hexblades hover somewhere between 360% and 450% of this baseline which is uhm... lets say a little too much. Buffing this class to 3 extra attacks would make the fighter even more useless than he already is compared to the hexblade. not to mention that the hexblade still is a full caster with insane things like forcecage + sickening radience and access to 9th level spells. I just done see why we should give this class 600% baseline damage, so I thought I should write this up.
I hope it helped someone. Btw: i am absolutly not alone thinking the hexblade is too strong. dungeon dudes recent subclass ranking had the hexblade at 75% S ranking, the highest of any subclass in the game (maybe tied with the moon druid cause most people play very low levels)
Okay so, I want to reply to this thread again because a few things have happened since I posted this.
My opinions have changed significantly - Why? Because I played the subclass extensively since I posted this. There are a few things I didn't realize. I built a changeling hexblade and maxed out charisma using standard array. The way changelings are written you can do that. My table uses standard array +1 and you can put that 1 in any stat. This gave me a build with a 20 charisma at level 1.
Greatswords are another factor. I use that now for my pact weapon. This alone matches and exceeds the damage of EBAB. I also got rid of eldritch blast entirely and instead focused on just doing melee damage. Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon, Eldritch Smite.
The only homebrew rule I took from this discussion was I made Eldritch Smite based on proficiency and regenerate on a long rest. This works better for my group because we practically never do short rests. And that's another thing... Warlocks need a lot of naps. I kind of hate that fact. I would rather have a potion that gives a short rest that costs gold than try and convince my party to let me take a nap. That's extremely annoying for everyone involved who just wants to get on with the adventure. Might ask for a homebrew for a short rest potion or something that I could take as an action. That would be so much better from my perspective. Is that overpowered? Depends on your economy in game. Health Potions cost 50 gold, I'd price this at 100 and only have it be useable once a day.
Btw the way, the change I implemented, although it works better for my party, it really is only a nerf. Sure you have more spells available to you, but the fact that eldritch smite does not regenerate on a short rest means you have to play suboptimally for a portion of the day. That actually works for me because then I actually can use the other features of the warlock that usually don't see the light of play (see what I did there) like using spells other than hex. Later I can use this feature to shift into becoming an EBAB blaster for half of the day, giving my character some interesting dynamics. We're only level 5 though so that's not an option.
My plans for the future of this character build are to take the Darkness spell, and Devil's Sight. This works especially well with my homebrew due to the extra spell available from Eldritch Smite using proficiency slots and not a spell slot. Meaning I could cast darkness and hex - then hexblade's curse and make an attack at advantage. I'd basically be annihilating everything that got trapped in the darkness and they wouldn't be able to see meaning all attacks against me are at disadvantage.
So now in play... base hexblade is incredibly powerful... but only if you are aware of what you are doing with it. Building an archer hexblade is totally useless. Hexblades are best used with greatswords. There is the consequence of being extreme fragile though. Essentially my hexblade character hits very hard - doing at least 50 - 60 damage per round at level 5 - which is insane and almost one shots everything - if he hits. However, if he doesn't kill on the first hit, he can be downed quite easily. This means that I'll run into a conflict, kill half of the enemy and my party has to clean up the other half over multiple turns while I make death saving throws. I'm hoping that with Darkness and Devil's Sight, I'll be able to mitigate that damage. I can also use Shield one time, so sometimes I get a second turn because of that. After that, if another fight happens before a long rest - I have to back it up and rely on a very weak eldritch blast for now. By level 11 I expect my build to be fully fleshed out.
Here's another thing that I want to add, my group does not allow multiclassing for this specific campaign. A lot of dungeon masters don't allow multiclassing because many classes are front-loaded, thus you can basically remove any downsides to a class with one or two dips into other classes. For example - dipping an assassin rogue two levels into grave domain cleric means you can one shot nearly everything once a day and you get proficiency with heavy armor. You can break the game over your knee with multiclassing and practically have an invincible party if everyone multiclasses with paladin or warlock. Warlock, Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, and Cleric all break the balance of the game if multiclassed. A barbarian dip works well with the BattleMaster fighter. Rogue/Fighter Archer builds are very effective. A Divination Wizard Dip works well with a Lore Bard. Lore Bard/Divination Wizard dip basically makes you the dm. You could also dip Eloquence bards into Divination wizard. Stack the lucky feat on top of that and you just have a character that can manipulate practically any roll however they please. You can make the dm reroll d20s 3 times, you can make the dm take a roll you rolled at the beginning of the day twice, and you can retract a d6 from enemy attacks, damage rolls, and ability checks as a reaction. You can also use a bonus action to add a d6 to attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws for allies. If you choose to level up Bard, that d6 eventually becomes a d12. If you choose to level up divination wizard, those two d20s eventually become three... I'd go with Bard though personally... especially lore bard. Magical secrets can fill in gaps that the wizard leveling make lack.
I think my point is, you mentioned multiclassing into Paladin... my argument is that multiclassing always makes the character broken if done correctly. So I'm not considering multiclassing in my argument. If we are considering multiclassing, then there is no need to follow the warlock class... or any class really... maybe besides the wizard... to level 20. Multiclass builds are just better overall so if multiclassing is allowed and you understand how to do it, you should a l w a y s multiclass. My players don't like multiclassing because it truly is broken. We might try a campaign with it though, who knows?
One more thing, Hexblade still has some problems as a class. And no, it does not need to be nerfed at all. You are sacrificing nearly everything for damage output and the 9th level spells you can choose from are not very useful or worth the spell slot they cost. Likewise, other classes sacrifice less for damage output, get a similar numerical result, and don't die to everything in one hit. However, the Hexblade damage nearly caps out at the beginning of the game near level 5 or 6... which is why it is a viable option and considered powerful.
I had not considered how important the early game of DnD is compared to the later game. By the end of it, a level 20 Hexblade Warlock is doing slightly less damage than a level 20 Fighter is, has fewer hit points, AC, and only a few nearly useless spells to make up for, because of this I looked at the end result and decided that this wasn't fair. However, because the Warlock is doing about twice to four times the damage of the fighter from levels 3-13 or so, that encapsulates the majority of DnD games that actually occur.
Meaning that for the early game up until level 17, the Hexblade warlock starts off with a lot of damage and maintains that for most of the games they are in play. Timing of DnD games and where the campaign ends is not something I fully understood while making these posts. I have since come to realize that the Hexblade is an incredibly strong, if not the strongest, baseline damage dealer for single targets in the game at early levels. However, there is still no reason whatsoever to take any character to level 20 as a Hexblade. Multiclassing with anything after level 9 or 10 or so... maybe even earlier, is a better idea than pursuing the Hexblade Warlock into higher levels.
Last big thing, Hexblades still have a huge problem with action and spell economies that just make them a bit annoying. I think a change to that system would not really affect overall power. With a hexblade, you are constantly doing tons of damage all the time, I find it very hard, with the baseline class, to do anything besides attack with booming blade or thirsting blade. And this is a problem with EBAB too. They are always just casting Eldritch Blast and doing nothing else. You have one set of actions you can do that is the best thing to do all the time because it does the most damage. My criticism and the reason I'm comfortable with making Eldritch Smite a proficiency slot based action, is that you only get to do that one thing all the time and your spells are basically useless beyond Hex or Shield. You don't have enough spell slots to cast anything else besides hex and Eldritch Smite otherwise. And that only gives you one Eldritch Smite for when the Warlock is the most powerful. I think I can pinpoint my complaints to that particular thing. If Eldritch Smite didn't use spell slots and didn't regenerate on a short rest, Your warlock would become an infinitely more versatile character... rather than just a glass cannon fighter. I stand by that change alone if any.
Using the EBAB as a Hexblade and actually using your Hexblade should do comparable damage... also the other warlock subclasses should be boosted to match the damage of the hexblade - nerfing the hexblade would just turn the warlock into the worst caster class.
TL;DR - No it does not need to be nerfed, but it doesn't really need a power boost either - the class is actually more balanced than I originally thought. HOWEVER - it does need some mechanical changes to add variety, not necessarily power and maybe some more flavorful options for the level 6 class feature than just resurrecting the dead. I still stand by those points.
Forget adding attacks tho... that's not necessary at all.
Those are my revised thoughts.
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We don't have to see eye to eye. This is an option that Kell_Swiftfire is giving and I'm drawing inspiration from for players and DMs who want something a little more rewarding than 1-13 points of damage difference for fully optimizing a DPR Striker out of the Warlock class. If you don't want that, that's ok. You don't have to use our homebrews. My own DM doesn't even want to use some of the stuff I came up with and that's fine. Ironically, he approved the stuff that buffed damaged and rejected my Eldritch OverCharge idea, which is objectively worse than the accursed Specter.
I'm looking at this from a game design perspective. We're spitballing new ideas and seeing if they stick. I think Hexblade's need to be DPR Strikers. Thematically, that seems appropriate.
Hexblade is popular... which, let's be honest, is only thanks to Critical role.
Hexblade is so close to being a class that I dream about. A class that represents what happens when you make a pact with a sentient weapon. However, does it have to be from the Shadowfell? Why is this class so limited and narrow? Why does it cost so much to do more damage than Eldritch Blast with such a thin margin of damage? If you have those questions, this class overhaul is for you. If not, that's fine too. Enjoy the class as written.
Some people only play rules as written. To those people, I say... Enjoy breaking your DM over your knee with multi-classing.
Personally i play Hexblade since 4th Ed, loved it back then, still kinda like it now, at least its the class that offers the most modularity with the Patron+Pacts+Eldritch Invocations compared to others.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
Good lord. The 4th Edition Hexblade is beastly. Oh what's this MULTIPLE patrons for the Hexblade? You get a +3 blade with a d10 at level one, or a +2 blade with a d12? They have their own unique designs? Makes me want to play fourth edition... I'm guessing there's not a DnDBeyond for fourth edition tho.
Okay, corrections are needed for some things.
In total, the average damage for a FULLY optimized BASE Hexblade is...
96.5 DPR.
Where did that extra damage come from? Well, really three things.
Accursed Specter, Booming Blade, and a Greatsword attack. Which means for Eldritch Blast, the FULLY optimized DPR is... NOTE: This is damage at level 20. Booming Blade becomes less viable after a certain point where doubling a static modifier is better than the cantrip, since the cantrip gets rid of you second attack. So Booming Blade IS NOT a part of the final calculation.
90.5 DPR (or 102.5 DPR if your dm approves fall damage.)
So the base class does more damage than I originally thought. However, the damage is so varied and conditional and just plain weird.
Booming Blade breaks the damage ceiling at levels 5-10, putting the hexblade FAR AND AHEAD of other classes when it comes to damage, kind of keeps pace with other classes from levels 10-12, 12-17 is a gray area because of Life-drinker, and then at level 17ish - 20, it's better to attack twice, because your static modifier is that good, but only if you have enough spell slots for Eldritich Smite. Which, if you Hex, you got three to four slots. Then it comes down to whether or not Booming blade with one attack or two attacks without Eldritch Smite are worth it. When you have no Eldritch Smites left, your DPR is 71 when you attack with Booming Blade, and also 71 when you attack twice. Attacking twice becomes the answer because you don't have to wait for them to move.
Does this mean that the re-balance/overhaul is totally unnecessary?
No.
71 DPR without Eldritch Smite or... 90.5/102.5. Which choice is better? It's still Eldritch Blast.
So the turns would look like this...
First encounter: Three/four turns attacking with Hexblade. The rest are Eldritch Blast... and you don't have spells.
Second Encounter: You spent the whole time roleplaying trying to get a short rest, you didn't get it, now all you can do is Eldritch Blast. You become a meme and your party thinks you are annoying.
Third Encounter: You are still Eldritch blasting. This is literally all you have. You are an Eldritch Blast machine gun. Just look forward to using your sword tomorrow dude. Tomorrow in game, so like hopefully a week from now. Chad powergamer with multiclassed Cleric-Sorcerer-Wizard is making fun of you for being so reliant on short rests. He is determined never to take one so the table can all say Eldritch BLAST really loudly at the same time when you attack. This session is the third one in a row that you haven't gotten a short rest and you are still on the same day as you were three weeks ago. Life is sad.
My Overhaul, not Kriegehexe's, does 102 DPR without Eldritch Smite. That's about the same as Eldritch Blast with fall damage. Since DMs are unlikely to grant fall damage, this means that using the Hexblade is now ALWAYS the first choice in most cases. These calculations are going to go with the build that got approved by my DM, so I'm still using accursed Specter.
So now, your action economy looks like this.
First Encounter: Attack with Hexblade, don't worry about burning all your special skills to make using the Hexblade worth it, it already does more damage without them than Eldritch Blast does. You can attack normally and conserve your spells. At lower levels your attacking once and using booming blade. 1-10 really. At level 11 and up, you are attacking three times. You might use one Eldritch Smite and you Specter friend to finish an enemy for fun. You still have 3-5 slots left and they AREN'T using your spells. Booya. Life is good.
Second Encounter: Still attacking with Hexblade. Maybe Counterspell to impress your friends. They didn't know you can do that. Oh and it's cast at the highest (5th) level, so you know it actually worked. You're not worried about saving spell slots for Eldritch Smite, because they don't use spell slots. The Gish synergy is on. You still have spell slots left if you are past a certain level or have rod of the pact keeper. You did tons of damage, had a few flashy hits here and there. Your team values your impressive action economy, and even though you don't do as much damage as the rogue assassin, your counterspell is greatly appreciated.
Third Encounter: This is the last encounter of the day. You haven't used Eldritch Blast one time. But now you have to take out a guard from a tower from 250 feet away. You have invested two invocations and a feat into Eldritch Blast and now it's time to show it off. You cast it, the first bolt misses, but the second bolt lands, and due to repelling blast, this sends the guard 5 feet away from the tower, 40 feet in the air. Your team has NEVER seen you use this spell before and are SHOCKED and SURPRISED that you used this awesome cantrip you used so effectively. You respond by saying "Usually I just rely on my sword, but I always like to be prepared." You look super cool. You put sunglasses on as the guard falls 40 feet to the ground right into a fireball the wizard set up by SNEAKING FORWARD 100 feet. The female rogue grabs onto your leg, you pose as an artist paints your picture and it gets published as the front cover of the next DnD sourcebook. Well maybe that doesn't happen, lol. But by the time you actually USE Eldritch Blast, it's more meaningful, because it does something that the Hexblade can't. Long range damage. You don't have to use that spell as a crutch for regular damage. Ever.
Okay this is what really happens.
Your team has NEVER seen you use this spell before and are SHOCKED and SURPRISED that you used this awesome cantrip you used so effectively. They spend the rest of the session complaining about how overpowered that cantrip is and try to nerf you while you defend yourself with the rulebook.
Yeah, the Hexblade would take a Patron like the Warlock does, and each Patron would offer a different Pact Weapon and different Class features.
Till last year the 4th Ed character builder and compendium was still only on WOTC site, but it was only for those that had a DDinsider or something subscription, they ceased the service a few months ago.
There's online or dllable apps/creators fo 4th, Hero Labs from Whitewolf studios is a good and exhaustive one with ALL the published content for 4th available.
The thing was that Hexblade was a "Variant Class" all togheter, even if it shared some mechanics and spells/powers with the Warlock( wich sometimes could be problematic, cause outside of a few powers specificaly made for the hexblade, everything else was ranged or AoE powers).
Infernal Hexblade was amongts the most durable and brutal, sinc your Main Stat was CON and CHA, so Infernal Blades where generaly beefy boys, and just like current Fiend Dark one's blessing, you'll get THP when a creature dies in proximity of you.
There was issues as well with the class, it was heavely dependant on magic items and some feats to work properly( back then you gained a feat every 3 levels AND an ASI every 4 levels), since Hexblades exclusives powers like At-will attack and some encounters Dailies had keywords like Arcane AND weapon/melee (those where the only instances of Powers having those keywords combination), you could get some cheese by taking feats/items that could boost one type or the other, and your Hexblade specific powers/spels would benefit greatly from it.
Arcane Implement Proficiency was one of such feats, where it would let you Add the proficency of your Arcane focus/implement to your damage rolls.
The thing was that in order for an Hexblade to conjure his PAct weapon, you HAD to have an arcane focus in one hand, and then you could summon the weapon in your other hand, the Weapon would use its Dice damage and other traits it had from the Pact, AND it would gain the enhancement, traits, abilities from the Implement used to summon it...
And if you took a Multiclassing feat( MC worked differently in 4th)with a class that used Blades/weapons as Arcan focus/implements like the Swordmage, then you could pick up a magic blade, and use it as an implement, and your Pact Weapon would inherit the Blade implement traits and powers...
That was one of the reasons why my Dm hated my Hexblade, and since i did roll a Revenant, he was hard to kill...
Yeah for some reasons he din't like the fact that i had a ONE HANDED blade that dealt D12+CON+CHA+AIP each time (i had like D12+10-15 dmg minimum at lvl 4..., it was kinda like Lifedrinker eldritch invocation nowadays)
Now the cheese is different, would have wished that they kept the concept of Different Patrons could give different Pact weapons fo an Hexblade, but hey, thats just how things are.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
Hey, you know, this edition is still coming out with stuff. You could always hope.
Also homebrew your patron if you don't like the Shadowfell.
Maybe the level 6 ability should reflect your patron... hmmm...
I'm going to think a little bit about this.
Allready done that, i Rped my Hexblade the way it worked in 4th, i have a Fiendish Patron(even though i'm an Hexblade PAtron warlock), that gave me a Pact Blade through wich he gives me his Powers and "guidance".
And with my Dm we discussed about it, and changed the 6th lvl feature for the Dark reaper feature.
A way to fix the Spectre is to simply add a line that says " Power of the Master; the Spectre receive a bonus to his Attack rolls, AC, Ability checks and Saves and spell DC's equal to the Hexblade Profiency, and his Hp is equal to the Warlock levels X 3+CON."
And maybe something like "The Spectre can apply the Hexblade curse on the target of its attacks, once it as placed the Curse it cannot do so until the next Long Rest, this application of the Hexblade Curse, doesn't use the Hexblade Curse of the character, a target can be victime of only One Hexblade Curse at a time."
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
That's really cool.
The Hexblade has a lot of untapped potential.
I see you found the potential of a vengeance paladin + hexblade.
I just created a lvl 20 character to see what that multiclass is like and OH boy is it good.
Its NIce, requires some real thight management, cause depending on the ratio Paladin-Warlock you'll more Spell slots than a straight Warlock, but they'll still melt like snow in the sun.
If you go minimal you'll end up with 3-4 Lv1 slots and 4 Pact Slots, lv1 slots are used for Support/utility spells or lv1 spells that are good, but doesn't scale( Shield of Faith, Protection from G&E, Detect Magic etc)
Use Pact slots for your Higher ends damage spells, or you best Defensive spells (Shadow of Moil/Mirror Image), if your DM lets you use UA content the Mind Thrust spell is a really, really usefull spell, its a lvl 2 spell, but it launches for a BA, for each lvl above 1st you can target more foes, the damage is decent while not amazing( only 3D6), but the real ability is that creatures that fails the INT save, can only use the dash or Disengage actions in their next turn, wich given the situation can save your arse.
If you go higher as a Paladin lets say 5 to 6th lvl, you'll add some lvl 2 slots, and get some higher spells on the Pally list, wich arn't bad, if your campaign as lots of Outdoors encounters and travel a Find Steed spell is always nice, specially with how the spell works( spells that only has a range of Self, can also affect your steed, wanna Horse ride like in Skyrim and say ****s to physics?, Spider Climb it is...), but then the higher you get as a Pally the less Pact Slots you will have, and Pact slots are the most important thing honestly.
Cause of course you wanna keep those Pact Slots for heavy spells or Divine Smites, i mean Divine Smiting on short rests is still something brutal.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
What about Conquest Paladin?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Conquest Paladin can be fun, a bit more CC centric given its Channel Divinity; Conquering Presence.
And Guided strike is always a nice thing
Conquest paladin works best if you take it up to 7th lvl tho for its Aura of Conquest feature, and if you take spells that Frigthens the creatures, you have a pretty powerfull CC build.
You alos get Spiritual Weapon as a Subclass spell, wich is not a bad spell at all., its a different playstyle i shall say?
Whereas a Vengeance Paladin would be a bit more aggresive and In your face, the Conquest paladin has more CC capabilities due to his Features.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
I'm looking at a lvl 6 Vengeance Paladin, lvl 14 Hexblade.
There is nothing about this build that isn't badass. If you and a DM do a solo campaign, this is the character you want to use.
Level 20 Paladins and Level 20 Hexblades I feel are actually worse than this multi-class.
Thats what i'm playing/aiming for right now in a Midgard campaign, its bad ass
Depending on how you play it it can be Punisher levels of bad ass, but yeah to go back to the topic, even as an Hexblade EB+ Agonizing Blast are still important, its always nice to have a multi D10+5 ranged attack.
If you can take the Spell Sniper feat at some point, having EB and ALL your ranged spels ignore covers (outside total) and double their range, can make you into a well rounded attacker; be it from afar, as well as up close.
Warcaster is always a must, since a lot of spells will have concentration and Mage Slayer while more situational is a good thing to have if you face spellcasters and its kinda thematic.
Also by lvl 6 if you play using UA rules for the classes overhaul, paladins get Spirit Guardians, wich is a darn good spell.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
Your math is flawed friend. Hexblades at every level after 1, do less damage on average than Blastlocks. This gets bad at level 11, and terrible after level 17.
Palcot is generally right that, the reason I'm working on this is to make a Hexblade 'viable' vs a blastlock.
I also have included usecases with Hexblades Curse and Hex, thought it's important to note that the benefits of Hex are canceled out as they also apply to Blastlocks. And Hexblades curse can only be used once per short rest until level 14, making it a pretty far cry from a feature that truly 'brings Hexblades back up' to Blastlock damage.
The core issue, again, is that Bladelocks need significantly higher invocation, spell, and boon investment to 'optimize' their class, and still do less damage (and have less flexibility) than if they were Blastlocks.
The best Hexblades in the game are any other warlock subclass with Armor of Shadows, Agonizing Blast, and Eldritch Blast (and a reskin for an arcane bow instead of an eldritch... blast).
One way to solve the issue would be to allow the use of the Hexblade curse a number of times per SR equal to your CHA mod.
Some classes with similar features has this = XXX Mod systeme, but since the Warlock was amongst the first classes to be made 5 years ago and they did not know how to balance things( they still kinda are clueless honestly imo), they pre-emptevily nerfed the Warlock, cause a Magical Gish character would have been deemed too powerfull ( i wonder if it was before or after they gave the paladins Divine Smite?...).
But now in retrospect, they agree that they where afraid for nothing, but they still are unwilling to correct the issues and instead give other useless shit( the UA Pact of the Talisman, is meh at best...)
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
Actually, I agree wholeheartedly! This is one of the features I've included in Krieghexe Full (still haven't hit 'publish' on it, but that's mostly for laziness. It's about 99% typed out).
I actually took inspiration from Paladin's Divine Smite and Cleric's Channel Divinity. In The War Witch: Path of the Krieghexe, Hexblade's Curse gets uses equal to your proficiency bonus, and resets on a long rest (this, because it also gets some additional buffs that would make it borderline op with 2 uses per short rest at level 1, and 4 uses per short rest at level 10 etc).
The full version makes Krieghexen on-par warriors with Eldritch Knights, and in many cases, rangers. They also have some incredible burst damage, but it only really comes 'online' once they've stacked a few abilities on a single target. I played a lot with the idea of 'stacking curses' on a target to slowly build your strength against it as the battle progresses. In a fight, this means they'll hold their own, and always do on average, 1-3 more points of damage per round than a Blastlock (as they should); more importantly though, it makes them extremely potent duelists, bost-bashers, and long-term, single target damage dealers. This balance feels really nice in playtests as it allows them to deal a damage-dealing role alongside Assassins, Fighters, Rangers, and Sorcererors, but fills an unfilled combat niche in the 'starts moderate and gets very strong' role (against one target). But as it takes a lot of bonus-action investment, it takes about 3 turns to really get everything online on a target... so when it dies, it takes another 3 turns to get back up to maximum damage output. The long rest reset helps make this -quite high- damage potential an issue of careful resource investment.
The way I describe it is 'Krieghexe Full may be able to solo-duel your party's boss/mini boss fight (especially after level 6 and 10), but will probably get overwhelmed by decent 2-3 mobs/guards that a fighter/paladin would have no problem dealing with (as they can bring their full damage potential online much quicker).
Have you considered that Warlocks of other Patrons might want to engage in melee combat and thus, will pick Pact of the Blade, only to be disappointed when this 'fix' doesn't work for them because you buffed a Patron and not a Pact Boon? Have you considered that Hexblade Warlocks could potentially pick up a different Pact Boon and gain all the benefits of this 'fix' in addition to being an otherwise optimised Warlock? Have you considered the ramifications of allowing someone using this 'fix' to multiclass this with Paladin or worse, Sorcerer?
In my opinion, the most balanced option wouldn't be to buff a Patron, but to buff the Pact Boon that urges players into melee in the first place. Thus, I think that we should be buffing Pact of the Blade with a lot of the options that the Hexblade actually gets RAW. For example, I think that Pact of the Blade should give players proficiency with medium armour and shields and the option to use Charisma for attack and damage rolls on top of the ability to summon a weapon that you're automatically proficient with. This is a similar change to what the College of Valour gives to the Bard; it gives them the tools they need to survive long enough in melee to do the things they want to do. They are not tanks, they only have a d8 Hit Die and still only get middling AC, but they can feasibly function as melee DPR without immediately being wiped off the face of the Prime Material Plane. Is it as good as Agonising Blast? It can actually be better with Great Weapon Master, heck even Green Flame Blade is comparable:
Agonising Blast at 17th level or higher = 4(1d10+5) = 42 avg dmg
Pact of the Blade at 14th level or higher (when you can both take Great Weapon Master and max your Charisma) = 2(2d6+15) = 44 avg dmg + Lifedrinker = 54 avg dmg
Pact of the Blade at 17th level or higher (wielding a Longsword using Green Flame Blade with two adjacent targets) = (4d8+5)+(3d8+5) = 41.5 avg dmg + Lifedrinker = 46.5 avg dmg
My solution allows a Warlock of any Patron to be adequate in melee, and makes it harder to make multiclass monstrosities as it now requires 3 levels to use your spellcasting stat for attack and damage instead of just one. You want it to be worth it to go into melee as a Warlock? There you go. Still think Agonising Blast is too strong? Ban the Invocation, now Eldritch Blast only does 22 avg dmg which is less than Green Flame Blade even if you only have one target. If you're concerned that Hexblade is too weak compared to other Patrons now, make Hexblade's Curse usable a number of times per long rest equal to your Charisma modifier. Pretty strong I'd say. Hexblade is meant to be the premier melee Patron, and adding your proficiency bonus to Agonising Blast is kinda dumb, so make Hexblade's Curse only apply to melee attacks. That would be how I would rework it.
It is not the Pact that help or makes the Hexblade good at melee( PotB only give you the ability to summon a magical weapon to your hands).
What makes Hexblade melee centric is the Hex Warrior feature and the few spells that the extended list give.
And giving the PotB ALL the benefits of the Hexblade, why even consider taking the Hexblade at all?...
Cause to be honest not all of the Hexblade features are that good, or they are ****** by the fact that they require the HB curse to work.
If you take the Hexblade only features that makes the subclass interesting, and give it to others, why even exist at all?...
In your example you take the Bard of Valor, but think for an instant that if you where to take What makes the Bard of valor, a Bard of Valor and give it to the other subclass, why bother with the Valor at all?...
If you take out a subclass defining features to make it accesible to everyone, you either make it obsolete or you need to go and design something else to replace it...
Now i do agree that the increase in the # of times you can use the Curse is one of the best ways to make Hexblade more interesting, without the need for arse over head new mechanics( the simpler it is, the better it is).
But i'm also not a fan at all to essentially Gut out a subclass of his ONE and ONLY defining feature to give it to everyone.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
Hey :)
I don't want to come across as rude. I simply have to disagree massively with the fundamental notion of this post. (sorry if i missed some houserule, optional rule or similar that would change everything but i dont think i did.) I will back up my claims with some reasonably mathy estimations.
I agree the hexblade needs to be fixed. It needs the likely strongest nerf of all subclasses in 5e due to how utterly overpowered and game breaking it is.
You seem to care about levels 17-20 so lets start there. Assume this character:
Half elf, 20 Cha, Feats: PAM, GWM, EAcc. Using a Halberd +3 due to improved pact weapon (most players will have something else at level20) further we will assume you have lifedrinker eldritch smite and thirsting blade. I would recommend a MC if you want more power to really break the game. 3 or 6 levels of paladin (vengance) but its not necessary for this argument in the slightest. I will assume you have a way to gain advantage. that could be vengance paladin channel divinity or a maneuver or flanking or prone (ie from a smite) or attacking from hidden or shadow of moil or one of many other options. If you find yourself in a turn where you just cant get advantage use your spells. your still a full caster with access all the way to 9th level magic and more 5th level spells than any other class.
So here the damage calculation (note at adv against a hexblade curse target your crit rate is 27%) (with PAM i will assume a rate for AoO to be 0.7 as no target can move towards or away from you. In many games this 0.7 is a rather low estimate) (assuming an AC of 20. that gives you a to hit of 87.5% (yes i ofc did account for -5 GWM) not factoring in any bless, bond or similar improvements, hit rate is not factored into the calculation - just multiply the non crit part (as ofc crits always hit) by 0.875 if you want to account for AC.) (I will be assuming 2 encounters between short rests at 2 rests per day that's 6 encounters per day. Of course your mileage may vary feel free to adapt the math to what suits your case best.)
attacks*(weapon+hex+magic+cha+hexblades curse+GWM+lifedrinker) + (back end weapon+hex+magic+cha+hexblades curse+GWM+lifedrinker)
at 3.5 attacks assuming 1 crit is about average. I will therefore add 1 of 3 smites that you have per short rest
that's Weapon damage+hex damage+Eldritch smite(5th level)
(note the back end damage turns into full damage if you kill a creature with that attack. not assumed here.)
2.5*(1d10+1d6+5+3+6+10+5)+(1d4+1d6+5+3+6+10+5)+(1d10+1d6+6d8*2)=193 dmg
Comparison: EB+AB of non hexblade with max Cha: 4*(1d10+5+1d6) = 56 dmg
If we really consider AB to be "the best way to deal damage" than we got a big problem here. Yes one did expend a lot more resources. but even without a smite or hex EBAB+hex stands no chance. and if we factor in magic items things get really crazy.
Honestly at lv 20 i dont even think all of this is "gamebreaking" - its strong. very strong. but simulacrums and wish now exist so well. I think the real issue is at level 5 and 8. Assuming V human (or even better now with TCE Custom Linneage, and it gets really crazy if your dm allows racial feats for a "custom linneage half elf")
looking at level 5 this character has PAM + GWM and 16 CHA
I will do this calculation without factoring in Hit rate as AC varies too widely and adv is rather unreliable at this level. Keep in mind you have a -1 to hit (-5GWM 1improved weapon 3dex) Devils sight darkness is decent at this point. Smite is still good but crits are rather unreliable so i will also ignore those (~9.5% crit rate with curse)
2,5*(1d10+1d6+3+3+10+1)+(1d4+1d6+3+3+10+1)=88 dmg
hex at that level can usually be used in every single fight. (thats 6 times a day).
Comparison EB AB (CHA 18): 2*(d10+d6+4)=26 dmg
Okay now we are in game breaking territory. And until level 11 EB will not get ANY (okay +1 @ 8 if you go CHA) better while those martial attacks will slowly gain EAcc and better magic weapons - at least improved pact weapon.
Last but not least lets look at level 4. IMO the craziest point of all.
EB does d10+d6+4=13 dmg
Our little hexblade does
1,5*(1d10+1d6+3+3+10+1)+(1d4+1d6+3+3+10+1)=62 dmg
at -1 hit yes. But this is nowhere close to any reasonable level of balance. (also make sure your cleric or paladin casts bless and bonus points for a bardic inspiration and a peace cleric bond to make absolutely sure you don't miss)
Honestly i do not know what you did that led you to believe hexblade cant match EBAB damage, (this isnt criticizing you i truly just dont know) Usually the damage that EBAB + hex does is considered "baseline damage" If what you do as a class is doing damage than any class can match this baseline (ignoring monks)
Doing great damage is usually considered at least 150% of this baseline, depending on how many other things you can contribute.
Hexblades hover somewhere between 360% and 450% of this baseline which is uhm... lets say a little too much.
Buffing this class to 3 extra attacks would make the fighter even more useless than he already is compared to the hexblade. not to mention that the hexblade still is a full caster with insane things like forcecage + sickening radience and access to 9th level spells. I just done see why we should give this class 600% baseline damage, so I thought I should write this up.
I hope it helped someone.
Btw: i am absolutly not alone thinking the hexblade is too strong. dungeon dudes recent subclass ranking had the hexblade at 75% S ranking, the highest of any subclass in the game (maybe tied with the moon druid cause most people play very low levels)
Regards,
AIify
Okay so, I want to reply to this thread again because a few things have happened since I posted this.
My opinions have changed significantly - Why? Because I played the subclass extensively since I posted this. There are a few things I didn't realize. I built a changeling hexblade and maxed out charisma using standard array. The way changelings are written you can do that. My table uses standard array +1 and you can put that 1 in any stat. This gave me a build with a 20 charisma at level 1.
Greatswords are another factor. I use that now for my pact weapon. This alone matches and exceeds the damage of EBAB. I also got rid of eldritch blast entirely and instead focused on just doing melee damage. Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon, Eldritch Smite.
The only homebrew rule I took from this discussion was I made Eldritch Smite based on proficiency and regenerate on a long rest. This works better for my group because we practically never do short rests. And that's another thing... Warlocks need a lot of naps. I kind of hate that fact. I would rather have a potion that gives a short rest that costs gold than try and convince my party to let me take a nap. That's extremely annoying for everyone involved who just wants to get on with the adventure. Might ask for a homebrew for a short rest potion or something that I could take as an action. That would be so much better from my perspective. Is that overpowered? Depends on your economy in game. Health Potions cost 50 gold, I'd price this at 100 and only have it be useable once a day.
Btw the way, the change I implemented, although it works better for my party, it really is only a nerf. Sure you have more spells available to you, but the fact that eldritch smite does not regenerate on a short rest means you have to play suboptimally for a portion of the day. That actually works for me because then I actually can use the other features of the warlock that usually don't see the light of play (see what I did there) like using spells other than hex. Later I can use this feature to shift into becoming an EBAB blaster for half of the day, giving my character some interesting dynamics. We're only level 5 though so that's not an option.
My plans for the future of this character build are to take the Darkness spell, and Devil's Sight. This works especially well with my homebrew due to the extra spell available from Eldritch Smite using proficiency slots and not a spell slot. Meaning I could cast darkness and hex - then hexblade's curse and make an attack at advantage. I'd basically be annihilating everything that got trapped in the darkness and they wouldn't be able to see meaning all attacks against me are at disadvantage.
So now in play... base hexblade is incredibly powerful... but only if you are aware of what you are doing with it. Building an archer hexblade is totally useless. Hexblades are best used with greatswords. There is the consequence of being extreme fragile though. Essentially my hexblade character hits very hard - doing at least 50 - 60 damage per round at level 5 - which is insane and almost one shots everything - if he hits. However, if he doesn't kill on the first hit, he can be downed quite easily. This means that I'll run into a conflict, kill half of the enemy and my party has to clean up the other half over multiple turns while I make death saving throws. I'm hoping that with Darkness and Devil's Sight, I'll be able to mitigate that damage. I can also use Shield one time, so sometimes I get a second turn because of that. After that, if another fight happens before a long rest - I have to back it up and rely on a very weak eldritch blast for now. By level 11 I expect my build to be fully fleshed out.
Here's another thing that I want to add, my group does not allow multiclassing for this specific campaign. A lot of dungeon masters don't allow multiclassing because many classes are front-loaded, thus you can basically remove any downsides to a class with one or two dips into other classes. For example - dipping an assassin rogue two levels into grave domain cleric means you can one shot nearly everything once a day and you get proficiency with heavy armor. You can break the game over your knee with multiclassing and practically have an invincible party if everyone multiclasses with paladin or warlock. Warlock, Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, and Cleric all break the balance of the game if multiclassed. A barbarian dip works well with the BattleMaster fighter. Rogue/Fighter Archer builds are very effective. A Divination Wizard Dip works well with a Lore Bard. Lore Bard/Divination Wizard dip basically makes you the dm. You could also dip Eloquence bards into Divination wizard. Stack the lucky feat on top of that and you just have a character that can manipulate practically any roll however they please. You can make the dm reroll d20s 3 times, you can make the dm take a roll you rolled at the beginning of the day twice, and you can retract a d6 from enemy attacks, damage rolls, and ability checks as a reaction. You can also use a bonus action to add a d6 to attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws for allies. If you choose to level up Bard, that d6 eventually becomes a d12. If you choose to level up divination wizard, those two d20s eventually become three... I'd go with Bard though personally... especially lore bard. Magical secrets can fill in gaps that the wizard leveling make lack.
I think my point is, you mentioned multiclassing into Paladin... my argument is that multiclassing always makes the character broken if done correctly. So I'm not considering multiclassing in my argument. If we are considering multiclassing, then there is no need to follow the warlock class... or any class really... maybe besides the wizard... to level 20. Multiclass builds are just better overall so if multiclassing is allowed and you understand how to do it, you should a l w a y s multiclass. My players don't like multiclassing because it truly is broken. We might try a campaign with it though, who knows?
One more thing, Hexblade still has some problems as a class. And no, it does not need to be nerfed at all. You are sacrificing nearly everything for damage output and the 9th level spells you can choose from are not very useful or worth the spell slot they cost. Likewise, other classes sacrifice less for damage output, get a similar numerical result, and don't die to everything in one hit. However, the Hexblade damage nearly caps out at the beginning of the game near level 5 or 6... which is why it is a viable option and considered powerful.
I had not considered how important the early game of DnD is compared to the later game. By the end of it, a level 20 Hexblade Warlock is doing slightly less damage than a level 20 Fighter is, has fewer hit points, AC, and only a few nearly useless spells to make up for, because of this I looked at the end result and decided that this wasn't fair. However, because the Warlock is doing about twice to four times the damage of the fighter from levels 3-13 or so, that encapsulates the majority of DnD games that actually occur.
Meaning that for the early game up until level 17, the Hexblade warlock starts off with a lot of damage and maintains that for most of the games they are in play. Timing of DnD games and where the campaign ends is not something I fully understood while making these posts. I have since come to realize that the Hexblade is an incredibly strong, if not the strongest, baseline damage dealer for single targets in the game at early levels. However, there is still no reason whatsoever to take any character to level 20 as a Hexblade. Multiclassing with anything after level 9 or 10 or so... maybe even earlier, is a better idea than pursuing the Hexblade Warlock into higher levels.
Last big thing, Hexblades still have a huge problem with action and spell economies that just make them a bit annoying. I think a change to that system would not really affect overall power. With a hexblade, you are constantly doing tons of damage all the time, I find it very hard, with the baseline class, to do anything besides attack with booming blade or thirsting blade. And this is a problem with EBAB too. They are always just casting Eldritch Blast and doing nothing else. You have one set of actions you can do that is the best thing to do all the time because it does the most damage. My criticism and the reason I'm comfortable with making Eldritch Smite a proficiency slot based action, is that you only get to do that one thing all the time and your spells are basically useless beyond Hex or Shield. You don't have enough spell slots to cast anything else besides hex and Eldritch Smite otherwise. And that only gives you one Eldritch Smite for when the Warlock is the most powerful. I think I can pinpoint my complaints to that particular thing. If Eldritch Smite didn't use spell slots and didn't regenerate on a short rest, Your warlock would become an infinitely more versatile character... rather than just a glass cannon fighter. I stand by that change alone if any.
Using the EBAB as a Hexblade and actually using your Hexblade should do comparable damage... also the other warlock subclasses should be boosted to match the damage of the hexblade - nerfing the hexblade would just turn the warlock into the worst caster class.
TL;DR - No it does not need to be nerfed, but it doesn't really need a power boost either - the class is actually more balanced than I originally thought. HOWEVER - it does need some mechanical changes to add variety, not necessarily power and maybe some more flavorful options for the level 6 class feature than just resurrecting the dead. I still stand by those points.
Forget adding attacks tho... that's not necessary at all.
Those are my revised thoughts.