Hey all, sorry for the vague thread title, but it's tough to be descriptive in a way that isn't obnoxiously long. I hope some people take a look anyway XD
Anyway, I'm trying to come up with a cool, fun magic item feature to give to the swashbuckler in my game. I'm thinking something like the following:
When in dim light or darkness, as an action, you meld into the shadows and become invisible. You may immediately attempt to hide (no action required). You may spend movement to teleport a distance equal to the movement spent to an unoccupied square adjacent to another creature and make an attack against it. Once you do this, you can't do it again until you complete a short or long rest.
The goal is to give the swashbuckler a fun and free attack with advantage with shadowy flavor. The armor (it's armor) will develop over time, and eventually the swashbuckler will be able to attack multiple enemies at once.
Specific concerns I have are the recharge time (should it be a long rest instead?) and the fact that advantage on the attack from being unseen isn't as significant a boon to a swashbuckler, who can sneak attack solo enemies without it (is there anything I could do to make this more bespoke for a swashbuckler?), though I'm obviously open to any thoughts anyone might have, not just about those two points. I want it to be fun but balanced.
My first thoughts are yes, it's unbalanced, but I think it's the entire premise....a free attack with advantage, teleport, eventually multi-attack is conceptually overpowered...and they can do it once/short rest. Given I feel the entire concept is OP...I'm not sure I could even offer advice that would tone it down. I guess all I can say is good luck!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Not sure it's really thematic with a swashbuckler. Shouldn't it be more about the performance of their combat? Or dueling? I get that their base rogue features provides some benefit with stealth, but I don't see Swashbucklers melding with the shadows or teleporting personally. Maybe the player is deviating from this, which is fine as it is your table.
The invisible thing seems the more overpowered part, but I don't know what level this is at. Is the duration unlimited? Does it only maintain in shadows? Or are they forced to do the teleport-attack thereby ending the invisibility? If it's like booming blade then "you must make a melee attack with a weapon..., otherwise the spell fails" for example.
For the teleportation, the way it's worded seems like it might be neat at first until you link it with their movement speed (probably for balance as I have tried something similar in the past). Wouldn't they be better off walking up to their target 75% of the time while invisible? Does your campaign feature a lot of difficult/elevated terrain where this could be meaningful? If the feature is all one action it feels like you are trying to grant advantage on attacks via invisible (for an unknown duration).
My first thoughts are yes, it's unbalanced, but I think it's the entire premise....a free attack with advantage, teleport, eventually multi-attack is conceptually overpowered...and they can do it once/short rest. Given I feel the entire concept is OP...I'm not sure I could even offer advice that would tone it down. I guess all I can say is good luck!
I felt it was basically a rogue-themed version of the samurai's Fighting Spirit, so I didn't feel it was particularly OP. Is there anything that makes it more significantly better than that that I'm missing?
Not sure it's really thematic with a swashbuckler. Shouldn't it be more about the performance of their combat? Or dueling? I get that their base rogue features provides some benefit with stealth, but I don't see Swashbucklers melding with the shadows or teleporting personally. Maybe the player is deviating from this, which is fine as it is your table.
This is one of the concerns I brought up in the OP. I'd love to hear alternate ideas :)
The invisible thing seems the more overpowered part, but I don't know what level this is at. Is the duration unlimited? Does it only maintain in shadows? Or are they forced to do the teleport-attack thereby ending the invisibility? If it's like booming blade then "you must make a melee attack with a weapon..., otherwise the spell fails" for example.
The intent is that the invisibility end once the attack is made. My players aren't the kind to nitpick over precise language of rules, especially when they're rules I've written myself, so it wouldn't have caused problems, but I appreciate you pointing out that I neglected to say it regardless :)
For the teleportation, the way it's worded seems like it might be neat at first until you link it with their movement speed (probably for balance as I have tried something similar in the past). Wouldn't they be better off walking up to their target 75% of the time while invisible? Does your campaign feature a lot of difficult/elevated terrain where this could be meaningful? If the feature is all one action it feels like you are trying to grant advantage on attacks via invisible (for an unknown duration).
I can't imagine any circumstance in which they'd be better off walking. Walking would mean they immediately become unhidden (though they would remain unseen), it could provoke attacks of opportunity from anyone they failed to hide from or who could see through their invisibility, they'd be limited by terrain as you mention, etc. It also doesn't really work logically with the intended progression of making multiple attacks.
I can't imagine any circumstance in which they'd be better off walking. Walking would mean they immediately become unhidden (though they would remain unseen), it could provoke attacks of opportunity from anyone they failed to hide from or who could see through their invisibility, they'd be limited by terrain as you mention, etc. It also doesn't really work logically with the intended progression of making multiple attacks.
All that you just said is also true when the swashbuckler uses the teleport instead. If they failed to hide from someone, they are still going to know they moved. That's the premise of failing to hide. If they teleport behind someone with see invisibility, they are still going to be seen. I might be stretching, but I think Bumkins meant, you shouldn't tie the teleport directly to movement and instead give it a set number, that way its more like misty step.
Also if they are invisible and step out, because you said the invisibility only ends when they attack. Their Hide roll will still hold. Therefore anyone who didn't see them before will still not see them. Unless you are telling us that the invisibility falls of the person when the step out of the shadows. But that differs from your previous reply:
The intent is that the invisibility end once the attack is made. My players aren't the kind to nitpick over precise language of rules, especially when they're rules I've written myself, so it wouldn't have caused problems, but I appreciate you pointing out that I neglected to say it regardless :)
The walking comparison was made assuming the player was invisible (letting them not worry about opportunity attacks for the most part). And if your player figures out they can see invisible, then dealing with opportunity attacks is where they could spend their cunning action (on disengage). But you've clarified the invisible is made as a part of the action so this might be mute.
Basically. I can see this item being acquired at 15th level, and at the lowest 10th. Assuming you have it at once per short or long rest before any additional upgrades.
For example, the teleport is like the Eldritch Knights's Arcane Charge is at 15th level (30 ft. teleport without requiring an action), or the Monk's Way of Shadow feature Shadow Step at 6th level (60 feet teleport from shadow to shadow requiring a bonus action). The invisible/hiding mechanic is similar to the same Monk's subclass 11th-level feature, Cloak of Shadows (requiring an action and dim/darkness). I'm assuming these type of features helped for inspiration (some of other shadow-theme subclasses may also have these). Keeping in mind Action Surge recharges after a short or long rest while the two monk features don't require any rest that I could tell.
You don't have to change your theme. But if you wanted to theme it around dueling and teleport then you could simply have the teleport portion requiring the target creature to not be within 5 feet of another creature, and require that the player teleports within 5 feet of the target. They still make a weapon attack as part of the action. With the changed theme you would probably have to ditch invisible.This way you can lower the level of acquisition for the item, and play on Swashbuckler's 3rd-level feature Rakish Audacity.
I personally don't see the need to make a stealth check if they are just going to be invisible anyway. I see two paths here:
A) Swashbuckler makes stealth check when in shadows opposed by target's perception check. If target fails, swashbuckler gains advantage on attack following teleport because they were unseen. If target succeeds, no advantage is gained as they would have seen the swashbuckler vanish via teleportation and thus be ready for a surprise attack.
B) Swashbuckler becomes invisible upon entering the shadows. Swashbuckler gains advantage on attack following teleport because they were unseen.
In both cases, the advantage would be negated if the target has the Alert feet which automatically negates advantage from unseen attackers or if they have Blinsight, Tremorsense, or Truesight and the teleportation occurred within the range of that particular sense as they would notice the swashbuckler suddenly vanishing and be ready for a surprise attack. The way you worded the OP made it seem like the swashbuckler became invisible just by entering the shadows (and is therefore "unseen") but then had to make a stealth check to hide (again to make themselves "unseen"). If you just choose one method, I think it should streamline the process. I would also keep in mind that if you choose Option A, they shouldn't need to make the check if they enter an area of darkness and their target doesn't have darkvision or some other sense out to that distance as they would automatically be hidden. Conversely, if the target has darkvision, they perceive dim light as bright light (out to their darkvision radius) thereby negating the swashbuckler's ability to hide in dim light which would negate the swashbuckler's advantage on the attack following the teleportation.
I don't know if you wanted something so in depth but I really like the idea of the armor. Since you want the armor to advance with the character, I would have it start by requiring a stealth check as that has more limitations and should make it available sooner. If you are planning on giving it to them early on, I'd go with recharging on a long rest. Then you can advance it by recharging on a short rest, and again by granting invisibility upon the trigger negating the necessity of a stealth check (though I would wait on this for a much later level). Hope this all helped and good luck with it! Let us know how it works out!
Edit: As for allowing for more attacks, keep in mind that neither the Rogue nor the Swashbuckler grant the Extra Attack feature. Even if they did make more than one attack, they can only apply Sneak Attack damage once per round, so the benefit of making an extra attack isn't very relevant since their armor's ability already grants advantage. In addition, the Swashbuckler's Master Duelist ability allows them to re-roll a missed attack and grants that re-roll advantage so, even if they miss with the teleportation attack, they will get another chance at a suitably later level. This ability also recharges after a short or long rest which, by this time, should match up with the armor's recharge rate nicely. Ultimately, I don't think the armor should allow extra attacks, it just doesn't seem worth it.
I personally don't see the need to make a stealth check if they are just going to be invisible anyway. I see two paths here:
They don't need to make a stealth check, but being hidden and being invisible are two different things, and there are scenarios where having only one would cost the rogue their advantage. Allowing them to hide is a bonus to cover those situations.
A) Swashbuckler makes stealth check when in shadows opposed by target's perception check. If target fails, swashbuckler gains advantage on attack following teleport because they were unseen. If target succeeds, no advantage is gained as they would have seen the swashbuckler vanish via teleportation and thus be ready for a surprise attack.
It would be against passive perception, not an opposed roll, but if the swashbuckler fails, they remain invisible and thus get advantage unless the target has something like truesight or an active See Invisibility.
B) Swashbuckler becomes invisible upon entering the shadows. Swashbuckler gains advantage on attack following teleport because they were unseen.
And in this case, if the swashbuckler doesn't attempt to hide, they don't have advantage against targets that can see through invisibility, whereas they would if they'd hid successfully.
In both cases, the advantage would be negated if the target has the Alert feet which automatically negates advantage from unseen attackers or if they have Blinsight, Tremorsense, or Truesight and the teleportation occurred within the range of that particular sense as they would notice the swashbuckler suddenly vanishing and be ready for a surprise attack. The way you worded the OP made it seem like the swashbuckler became invisible just by entering the shadows (and is therefore "unseen") but then had to make a stealth check to hide (again to make themselves "unseen"). If you just choose one method, I think it should streamline the process. I would also keep in mind that if you choose Option A, they shouldn't need to make the check if they enter an area of darkness and their target doesn't have darkvision or some other sense out to that distance as they would automatically be hidden. Conversely, if the target has darkvision, they perceive dim light as bright light (out to their darkvision radius) thereby negating the swashbuckler's ability to hide in dim light which would negate the swashbuckler's advantage on the attack following the teleportation.
Again, being invisible and being unseen are two different things with two different sets of rules. Alert doesn't provide protection against invisible targets, because the invisible condition is a specific thing with specific rules separate from the rules on unseen attackers. I've got a really solid grasp of the rules, doubling up the invisibility and the hide attempt covers all the bases.
I don't know if you wanted something so in depth but I really like the idea of the armor. Since you want the armor to advance with the character, I would have it start by requiring a stealth check as that has more limitations and should make it available sooner. If you are planning on giving it to them early on, I'd go with recharging on a long rest. Then you can advance it by recharging on a short rest, and again by granting invisibility upon the trigger negating the necessity of a stealth check (though I would wait on this for a much later level). Hope this all helped and good luck with it! Let us know how it works out!
Edit: As for allowing for more attacks, keep in mind that neither the Rogue nor the Swashbuckler grant the Extra Attack feature. Even if they did make more than one attack, they can only apply Sneak Attack damage once per round, so the benefit of making an extra attack isn't very relevant since their armor's ability already grants advantage. In addition, the Swashbuckler's Master Duelist ability allows them to re-roll a missed attack and grants that re-roll advantage so, even if they miss with the teleportation attack, they will get another chance at a suitably later level. This ability also recharges after a short or long rest which, by this time, should match up with the armor's recharge rate nicely. Ultimately, I don't think the armor should allow extra attacks, it just doesn't seem worth it.
I'm not sure if this affects your assessment of the future extra attacks, but they would necessarily be made against separate targets (within some range), because the idea is that the rogue melts into the shadows and then immediately strikes several different places at once, because I personally think that's cool. Since the additional attacks won't benefit from sneak attack, my thinking is that it would be a thing that feels cool and does do a little bit of damage, but not so much that it breaks anything.
Thank you so much for your thoughts! I may end up making it a long rest recharge, and I still have loads of time to consider more carefully the extra attacks.
In both cases, the advantage would be negated if the target has the Alert feet which automatically negates advantage from unseen attackers or if they have Blinsight, Tremorsense, or Truesight and the teleportation occurred within the range of that particular sense as they would notice the swashbuckler suddenly vanishing and be ready for a surprise attack. The way you worded the OP made it seem like the swashbuckler became invisible just by entering the shadows (and is therefore "unseen") but then had to make a stealth check to hide (again to make themselves "unseen"). If you just choose one method, I think it should streamline the process. I would also keep in mind that if you choose Option A, they shouldn't need to make the check if they enter an area of darkness and their target doesn't have darkvision or some other sense out to that distance as they would automatically be hidden. Conversely, if the target has darkvision, they perceive dim light as bright light (out to their darkvision radius) thereby negating the swashbuckler's ability to hide in dim light which would negate the swashbuckler's advantage on the attack following the teleportation.
Again, being invisible and being unseen are two different things with two different sets of rules. Alert doesn't provide protection against invisible targets, because the invisible condition is a specific thing with specific rules separate from the rules on unseen attackers. I've got a really solid grasp of the rules, doubling up the invisibility and the hide attempt covers all the bases.
I'd brush up on the rules and errata/Sage advice, because alert does prevent the advantage from Invisibility. Invisibility makes you unseen therefore as per the Alert feat you cannot attack at advantage. They are not two different things in terms of rules. The section on Unseen Attacker even uses the spell invisibility as an example. but the second part to what was said here still holds true. True sight, blind sense, and tremor sense all negate the teleport advantage.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hey all, sorry for the vague thread title, but it's tough to be descriptive in a way that isn't obnoxiously long. I hope some people take a look anyway XD
Anyway, I'm trying to come up with a cool, fun magic item feature to give to the swashbuckler in my game. I'm thinking something like the following:
The goal is to give the swashbuckler a fun and free attack with advantage with shadowy flavor. The armor (it's armor) will develop over time, and eventually the swashbuckler will be able to attack multiple enemies at once.
Specific concerns I have are the recharge time (should it be a long rest instead?) and the fact that advantage on the attack from being unseen isn't as significant a boon to a swashbuckler, who can sneak attack solo enemies without it (is there anything I could do to make this more bespoke for a swashbuckler?), though I'm obviously open to any thoughts anyone might have, not just about those two points. I want it to be fun but balanced.
Thanks for reading!
My first thoughts are yes, it's unbalanced, but I think it's the entire premise....a free attack with advantage, teleport, eventually multi-attack is conceptually overpowered...and they can do it once/short rest. Given I feel the entire concept is OP...I'm not sure I could even offer advice that would tone it down. I guess all I can say is good luck!
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Not sure it's really thematic with a swashbuckler. Shouldn't it be more about the performance of their combat? Or dueling? I get that their base rogue features provides some benefit with stealth, but I don't see Swashbucklers melding with the shadows or teleporting personally. Maybe the player is deviating from this, which is fine as it is your table.
The invisible thing seems the more overpowered part, but I don't know what level this is at. Is the duration unlimited? Does it only maintain in shadows? Or are they forced to do the teleport-attack thereby ending the invisibility? If it's like booming blade then "you must make a melee attack with a weapon..., otherwise the spell fails" for example.
For the teleportation, the way it's worded seems like it might be neat at first until you link it with their movement speed (probably for balance as I have tried something similar in the past). Wouldn't they be better off walking up to their target 75% of the time while invisible? Does your campaign feature a lot of difficult/elevated terrain where this could be meaningful? If the feature is all one action it feels like you are trying to grant advantage on attacks via invisible (for an unknown duration).
I felt it was basically a rogue-themed version of the samurai's Fighting Spirit, so I didn't feel it was particularly OP. Is there anything that makes it more significantly better than that that I'm missing?
This is one of the concerns I brought up in the OP. I'd love to hear alternate ideas :)
The intent is that the invisibility end once the attack is made. My players aren't the kind to nitpick over precise language of rules, especially when they're rules I've written myself, so it wouldn't have caused problems, but I appreciate you pointing out that I neglected to say it regardless :)
I can't imagine any circumstance in which they'd be better off walking. Walking would mean they immediately become unhidden (though they would remain unseen), it could provoke attacks of opportunity from anyone they failed to hide from or who could see through their invisibility, they'd be limited by terrain as you mention, etc. It also doesn't really work logically with the intended progression of making multiple attacks.
All that you just said is also true when the swashbuckler uses the teleport instead. If they failed to hide from someone, they are still going to know they moved. That's the premise of failing to hide. If they teleport behind someone with see invisibility, they are still going to be seen. I might be stretching, but I think Bumkins meant, you shouldn't tie the teleport directly to movement and instead give it a set number, that way its more like misty step.
Also if they are invisible and step out, because you said the invisibility only ends when they attack. Their Hide roll will still hold. Therefore anyone who didn't see them before will still not see them. Unless you are telling us that the invisibility falls of the person when the step out of the shadows. But that differs from your previous reply:
The walking comparison was made assuming the player was invisible (letting them not worry about opportunity attacks for the most part). And if your player figures out they can see invisible, then dealing with opportunity attacks is where they could spend their cunning action (on disengage). But you've clarified the invisible is made as a part of the action so this might be mute.
Basically. I can see this item being acquired at 15th level, and at the lowest 10th. Assuming you have it at once per short or long rest before any additional upgrades.
For example, the teleport is like the Eldritch Knights's Arcane Charge is at 15th level (30 ft. teleport without requiring an action), or the Monk's Way of Shadow feature Shadow Step at 6th level (60 feet teleport from shadow to shadow requiring a bonus action). The invisible/hiding mechanic is similar to the same Monk's subclass 11th-level feature, Cloak of Shadows (requiring an action and dim/darkness). I'm assuming these type of features helped for inspiration (some of other shadow-theme subclasses may also have these). Keeping in mind Action Surge recharges after a short or long rest while the two monk features don't require any rest that I could tell.
You don't have to change your theme. But if you wanted to theme it around dueling and teleport then you could simply have the teleport portion requiring the target creature to not be within 5 feet of another creature, and require that the player teleports within 5 feet of the target. They still make a weapon attack as part of the action. With the changed theme you would probably have to ditch invisible.This way you can lower the level of acquisition for the item, and play on Swashbuckler's 3rd-level feature Rakish Audacity.
I personally don't see the need to make a stealth check if they are just going to be invisible anyway. I see two paths here:
A) Swashbuckler makes stealth check when in shadows opposed by target's perception check. If target fails, swashbuckler gains advantage on attack following teleport because they were unseen. If target succeeds, no advantage is gained as they would have seen the swashbuckler vanish via teleportation and thus be ready for a surprise attack.
B) Swashbuckler becomes invisible upon entering the shadows. Swashbuckler gains advantage on attack following teleport because they were unseen.
In both cases, the advantage would be negated if the target has the Alert feet which automatically negates advantage from unseen attackers or if they have Blinsight, Tremorsense, or Truesight and the teleportation occurred within the range of that particular sense as they would notice the swashbuckler suddenly vanishing and be ready for a surprise attack. The way you worded the OP made it seem like the swashbuckler became invisible just by entering the shadows (and is therefore "unseen") but then had to make a stealth check to hide (again to make themselves "unseen"). If you just choose one method, I think it should streamline the process. I would also keep in mind that if you choose Option A, they shouldn't need to make the check if they enter an area of darkness and their target doesn't have darkvision or some other sense out to that distance as they would automatically be hidden. Conversely, if the target has darkvision, they perceive dim light as bright light (out to their darkvision radius) thereby negating the swashbuckler's ability to hide in dim light which would negate the swashbuckler's advantage on the attack following the teleportation.
I don't know if you wanted something so in depth but I really like the idea of the armor. Since you want the armor to advance with the character, I would have it start by requiring a stealth check as that has more limitations and should make it available sooner. If you are planning on giving it to them early on, I'd go with recharging on a long rest. Then you can advance it by recharging on a short rest, and again by granting invisibility upon the trigger negating the necessity of a stealth check (though I would wait on this for a much later level). Hope this all helped and good luck with it! Let us know how it works out!
Edit: As for allowing for more attacks, keep in mind that neither the Rogue nor the Swashbuckler grant the Extra Attack feature. Even if they did make more than one attack, they can only apply Sneak Attack damage once per round, so the benefit of making an extra attack isn't very relevant since their armor's ability already grants advantage. In addition, the Swashbuckler's Master Duelist ability allows them to re-roll a missed attack and grants that re-roll advantage so, even if they miss with the teleportation attack, they will get another chance at a suitably later level. This ability also recharges after a short or long rest which, by this time, should match up with the armor's recharge rate nicely. Ultimately, I don't think the armor should allow extra attacks, it just doesn't seem worth it.
They don't need to make a stealth check, but being hidden and being invisible are two different things, and there are scenarios where having only one would cost the rogue their advantage. Allowing them to hide is a bonus to cover those situations.
It would be against passive perception, not an opposed roll, but if the swashbuckler fails, they remain invisible and thus get advantage unless the target has something like truesight or an active See Invisibility.
And in this case, if the swashbuckler doesn't attempt to hide, they don't have advantage against targets that can see through invisibility, whereas they would if they'd hid successfully.
Again, being invisible and being unseen are two different things with two different sets of rules. Alert doesn't provide protection against invisible targets, because the invisible condition is a specific thing with specific rules separate from the rules on unseen attackers. I've got a really solid grasp of the rules, doubling up the invisibility and the hide attempt covers all the bases.
I'm not sure if this affects your assessment of the future extra attacks, but they would necessarily be made against separate targets (within some range), because the idea is that the rogue melts into the shadows and then immediately strikes several different places at once, because I personally think that's cool. Since the additional attacks won't benefit from sneak attack, my thinking is that it would be a thing that feels cool and does do a little bit of damage, but not so much that it breaks anything.
Thank you so much for your thoughts! I may end up making it a long rest recharge, and I still have loads of time to consider more carefully the extra attacks.
I'd brush up on the rules and errata/Sage advice, because alert does prevent the advantage from Invisibility. Invisibility makes you unseen therefore as per the Alert feat you cannot attack at advantage. They are not two different things in terms of rules. The section on Unseen Attacker even uses the spell invisibility as an example. but the second part to what was said here still holds true. True sight, blind sense, and tremor sense all negate the teleport advantage.