I've been DM'ing for a few years now and I've always been a little confused that the Help action gives another player advantage when making a skill check. I never mind it when a player has advantage, but I couldn't make the connection between one character lending their effort and it giving that second D20. After a few weeks of toying with the idea, I've come up with an alternate method by which one character can Help another.
Help Action When you help another character with a skill check, add your skill check modifier to that character's roll. For example, iIf you have Insight 4, you can add that +4 to another character's roll when they make an Insight Check.
This limits what skill checks a character is able to help with. A half-orc with no knowledge of Arcana wouldn't be a very good character to lend help in identifying a rune or magical artifact, and a halfling wouldn't necessarily be the best character to help with an athletics check (especially if they're small and weak). By running this alternate "Help Action" rule my players had to pick and choose who would lend a hand with specific spell checks.
Thank you for the replies -- I like that you limit those characters who can lend help to only those that are proficient, but I'm still a fan of adding that skill check bonus rather than give an advantage dice. Adding the skill bonus to the check allows characters who are strong in a particular skill grant better odds at success than a character who's not so good at it.
Thinking narratively, here's the situation:
Rendain the Wizard is holding an ancient tome in his hands, its cover burned with abyssal runes. Before he opens its cover, Tinnin the Gnome quips, "Perhaps we should check what those runes say before cracking it open, eh?" "You are right, my little friend." Rendain replies. "My knowledge of these runes are limited, however, and I cannot say for sure what they mean." "I can give it a look. My knowledge of abyssal runes is rusty, but maybe we can solve it together." Rendain smiled but looked toward the shadows, "That would be a great help, Tinnin, but perhaps Barbasson can help." "Have it your way." Tinnin murmurs. "I will lend what I know." Barbasson the rogue emerged from the dark. "I have some experience." "So you do." Rendain's eyes gleamed. "Perhaps with us both looking together, we can reveal the secret of this old, dusty book."
In this example, Rendain the Wizard needs to succeed at an Arcana (Wisdom) check and is asking for help. Tinnin and Barbasson are both proficient in Knowledge (Arcana), but Tinnin only has a +3 to the roll, whereas Barbasson has a +5. Narratively speaking, Barbasson would lend better odds to decipher the runes than Tinnin. Rendain also has a +5 Knowledge (Arcana) bonus -- combined with Barbasson's help, he adds a +10 to the check. Had he asked Tinnin for help, he'd have only added a +8.
By imposing this rule, the players at my table got to roleplay out how they helped one another. Depending on the situation they were trying to solve, one could make a case for being better at something than another player and it be represented in their stats.
Here's the thing, the odds of any skill check will be higher if everyone in the party does their own attempt to recall the magic runes, and the DM's options to discourage this practice of "everyone rolls arcana" are kindof limited. The DM can play around with the time element, for example, or the DM can be annoying and require multiple successful checks (eg everyone roll to see if you might be familliar with these ancient runes, ok, the runes are familiar to player X and player Y, but you can't quite decipher them. If you'd like to spend some time probing your memories, I'll let you roll again" Granting advantage is a shortcut. It acknowledges that in most situations, you would be rolling at least 2 dice anyway, and it kindof spotlights whomever is the primary on the task as kindof a star for a second. Ultimately, your solution seems more flavorful than "requires proficiency to take the help action" but it's also a lot more slanted in the player's favor. As an example, Let's take a DC20 and a DC25 (hard and very hard) standard difficulty to identify the markings on the cover. Let's also assume the primary, Renadin has a +8 because he is proficient with arcana... because that's his job, and it's pretty standard.
Normally, you'd have advantage, which gives you a 70% chance of hitting the DC 20 with a +8 and a 35% chance to get a DC25.
With your modifications, you don't have advantage, but instead your wizard has a +13 to his roll. this gives him a 70% chance of making the DC 20 and a 45% chance of hitting the DC 25.
for the record, using your numbers the wizard has a +10 giving him 55% on the "hard" check and 30% on the "very hard" check.
Yup, this is a good point and the help action also takes away some of the results that leave a bad feeling for players, where a lucky/unlucky roll makes little sense, such as your Wizard with a total of +8 to Arcana rolls a natural 1 and doesn't have a clue, but the barbarian with zero skill in arcana rolls a natural 20 and knows what's going on.
Here's a real example from a recent session
In my current group, I have a bard who is great at Investigation and Insight - it's totally his thing that he wants to be like Sherlock and be able to figure stuff out at the scene.
So, faced with a situation where they discover a wagon in the middle of a trail in the wilderness, he's eager to start trying to piece together what happens.
Because it's his thing, I let him take the lead on this one and he describes to me how his character is investigating the scene. The group barbarian wants to help too, so I ask her to let me know HOW she's helping (she's not proficient with investigation). She says she's looking at the tracks around the wagon, using her survival skill.
I ask her to make a roll on her survival skill (I don't give a specific DC, as I prefer a soft result to pass/fail) and let her know that the tracks are numerous humanoids wearing boots, though indications are they're slightly lighter build than the average human. She's able to indicate specific tracks to the bard, so I am happy that this gives him advantage on his Investigation roll.
He rolls and is able to spot a crossbow bolt embedded into the underside of the cart, along with a couple of other places where bolts struck the wagon, but have been removed. There's blood where the driver would sit. I get him to make a medicine check, which reveals that the blood is a spray from a melee blow, rather than pooled blood from a wound and the nearby trail of blood drips indicates that the wounded person would probably bleed to death without medical attention.
You can see how this can continue to play out.
The druid is good at nature & survival, so picks up from here, with information from the bard, she makes both checks at advantage to be able to follow the trail.
The assistance/advantage mechanic is simple, but it does kind of bug me that the result is the same if a strength 3 character assists the barbarian in lifting the iron gate as if an 18 strength character does it.
I do require proficiency in the skill to assist, or in the case of "lifting the gate" type checks, a positive ability modifier.
They only way I let a player have advantage is they are proficient in that skill.
Phyical checks are easy to use the with the help action, but what about checks of the mind? The way I play it, if there needs to be any type of INT check, the two players are discussing the issue, and it ends up that the one player says something the jogs the other persons memory or helps them make a connection.
@ stormknight, that's a cool and everything, but it's a little off topic... unless the point of your example was to illustrate that you "don't do" this type of advantage/assistance at all, and instead just offer low-difficulty pieces of info that are easy to get IF you bother/think to "look there" or "do that." If that's what you meant, I'd say it explicitly. Otherwise, I'm afraid I don't understand the relevance of your example. You find a book covered in weird runes and the wizard says "let me see that, sir, I've studied 10score years in a well stocked mages tower and, short of divinity, or some new language unknown to this plane of existance, I should be able to make something of this book!... A nearby rogue also has +2 INT and +3 proficiency, and is ready to assist. Do you allow the wizard to roll +8 with advantage? Do you set the DC as if the "help action" didn't exist and expect the rogue to find his own corner to investigate? something else?
There is something to be said for disallowing "help" actions entirely. DCs are set at levels that are "attainable" without help (and usually the DC of the lock is inversely proportional to the story value of whatever is behind it. If that strange book is just window dressing, then discovering what it is might be nearly impossible (at the moment?) whereas if it's the actual spellbook to banish or control the evil thingy that you need to vanquish, then likely the DC will be set lower. Maybe a 20-25.
Maintaining depth, and keeping auto-successes and auto-fails to a minimum is not a terrible attitude.
They only way I let a player have advantage is they are proficient in that skill.
Phyical checks are easy to use the with the help action, but what about checks of the mind? The way I play it, if there needs to be any type of INT check, the two players are discussing the issue, and it ends up that the one player says something the jogs the other persons memory or helps them make a connection.
Sans, I totally agree with you. That's already baked into the core rules. The rule states "A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone.".
I think this also solves Generic_Poster issue. The strength 3 character can't attempt the task of opening the gate alone. That said the next section for "Group Check" could really apply... depends on how big the gate is!
I think the idea of adding the proficiency bonus is an interesting one.
Assume Advantage adds a +5 on average
Have Working Together add Proficiency really nerfs what you get from Working Together. As it only adds a +2 through +6.
Have Working Together add Skill total really boosts what you get from Working Together. As you assume it adds +4 to +11. (that's assuming you don't bother aiding unless you have a +2 stat and training)
That said I do like how Working Together gives Adv, because it keeps away those time "I have every advantage in the world, and I rolls a 1." Then you need to roll TWO 1s.... I've seen it happen but then comedy just HAS to ensue. That said I'm a huge fan of using "Passive" stats not not bother rolling.
Sadly this is a confusing section because Help action is in two different sections:
I generally solve the sore feelings about rolling a 1 by having a hard bottom to a trained skill...
If a person is trained the worst they can do is 10+skill modifier which rewards having the skill trained.
I apply the same logic to the help action a trained person adds their modifier to the hard bottom.
as for everyone rolling for a check that is fine but untrained people who don't at least clear half the difficulty make those that do have the skill trained roll with disadvantage and a -2 on the hard bottom...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I've been DM'ing for a few years now and I've always been a little confused that the Help action gives another player advantage when making a skill check. I never mind it when a player has advantage, but I couldn't make the connection between one character lending their effort and it giving that second D20. After a few weeks of toying with the idea, I've come up with an alternate method by which one character can Help another.
Help Action
When you help another character with a skill check, add your skill check modifier to that character's roll.
For example, iIf you have Insight 4, you can add that +4 to another character's roll when they make an Insight Check.
This limits what skill checks a character is able to help with. A half-orc with no knowledge of Arcana wouldn't be a very good character to lend help in identifying a rune or magical artifact, and a halfling wouldn't necessarily be the best character to help with an athletics check (especially if they're small and weak). By running this alternate "Help Action" rule my players had to pick and choose who would lend a hand with specific spell checks.
I think WoTC was trying to avoid all the modifiers (plus or minus) when they created 5e.
Advantage is much easier to use then having to keep track of various modifiers but each group can flavor the game as they see fit.
You could also modify the original help action by stating you must be proficient in the skill in order to provide aide.
Thank you for the replies -- I like that you limit those characters who can lend help to only those that are proficient, but I'm still a fan of adding that skill check bonus rather than give an advantage dice. Adding the skill bonus to the check allows characters who are strong in a particular skill grant better odds at success than a character who's not so good at it.
Thinking narratively, here's the situation:
Rendain the Wizard is holding an ancient tome in his hands, its cover burned with abyssal runes. Before he opens its cover, Tinnin the Gnome quips, "Perhaps we should check what those runes say before cracking it open, eh?"
"You are right, my little friend." Rendain replies. "My knowledge of these runes are limited, however, and I cannot say for sure what they mean."
"I can give it a look. My knowledge of abyssal runes is rusty, but maybe we can solve it together."
Rendain smiled but looked toward the shadows, "That would be a great help, Tinnin, but perhaps Barbasson can help."
"Have it your way." Tinnin murmurs.
"I will lend what I know." Barbasson the rogue emerged from the dark. "I have some experience."
"So you do." Rendain's eyes gleamed. "Perhaps with us both looking together, we can reveal the secret of this old, dusty book."
In this example, Rendain the Wizard needs to succeed at an Arcana (Wisdom) check and is asking for help. Tinnin and Barbasson are both proficient in Knowledge (Arcana), but Tinnin only has a +3 to the roll, whereas Barbasson has a +5. Narratively speaking, Barbasson would lend better odds to decipher the runes than Tinnin. Rendain also has a +5 Knowledge (Arcana) bonus -- combined with Barbasson's help, he adds a +10 to the check. Had he asked Tinnin for help, he'd have only added a +8.
By imposing this rule, the players at my table got to roleplay out how they helped one another. Depending on the situation they were trying to solve, one could make a case for being better at something than another player and it be represented in their stats.
Here's the thing, the odds of any skill check will be higher if everyone in the party does their own attempt to recall the magic runes, and the DM's options to discourage this practice of "everyone rolls arcana" are kindof limited. The DM can play around with the time element, for example, or the DM can be annoying and require multiple successful checks (eg everyone roll to see if you might be familliar with these ancient runes, ok, the runes are familiar to player X and player Y, but you can't quite decipher them. If you'd like to spend some time probing your memories, I'll let you roll again" Granting advantage is a shortcut. It acknowledges that in most situations, you would be rolling at least 2 dice anyway, and it kindof spotlights whomever is the primary on the task as kindof a star for a second. Ultimately, your solution seems more flavorful than "requires proficiency to take the help action" but it's also a lot more slanted in the player's favor. As an example, Let's take a DC20 and a DC25 (hard and very hard) standard difficulty to identify the markings on the cover. Let's also assume the primary, Renadin has a +8 because he is proficient with arcana... because that's his job, and it's pretty standard.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
D&D Beyond FoundersYup, this is a good point and the help action also takes away some of the results that leave a bad feeling for players, where a lucky/unlucky roll makes little sense, such as your Wizard with a total of +8 to Arcana rolls a natural 1 and doesn't have a clue, but the barbarian with zero skill in arcana rolls a natural 20 and knows what's going on.
Here's a real example from a recent session
In my current group, I have a bard who is great at Investigation and Insight - it's totally his thing that he wants to be like Sherlock and be able to figure stuff out at the scene.
So, faced with a situation where they discover a wagon in the middle of a trail in the wilderness, he's eager to start trying to piece together what happens.
Because it's his thing, I let him take the lead on this one and he describes to me how his character is investigating the scene. The group barbarian wants to help too, so I ask her to let me know HOW she's helping (she's not proficient with investigation). She says she's looking at the tracks around the wagon, using her survival skill.
I ask her to make a roll on her survival skill (I don't give a specific DC, as I prefer a soft result to pass/fail) and let her know that the tracks are numerous humanoids wearing boots, though indications are they're slightly lighter build than the average human. She's able to indicate specific tracks to the bard, so I am happy that this gives him advantage on his Investigation roll.
He rolls and is able to spot a crossbow bolt embedded into the underside of the cart, along with a couple of other places where bolts struck the wagon, but have been removed. There's blood where the driver would sit. I get him to make a medicine check, which reveals that the blood is a spray from a melee blow, rather than pooled blood from a wound and the nearby trail of blood drips indicates that the wounded person would probably bleed to death without medical attention.
You can see how this can continue to play out.
The druid is good at nature & survival, so picks up from here, with information from the bard, she makes both checks at advantage to be able to follow the trail.
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
The assistance/advantage mechanic is simple, but it does kind of bug me that the result is the same if a strength 3 character assists the barbarian in lifting the iron gate as if an 18 strength character does it.
I do require proficiency in the skill to assist, or in the case of "lifting the gate" type checks, a positive ability modifier.
They only way I let a player have advantage is they are proficient in that skill.
Phyical checks are easy to use the with the help action, but what about checks of the mind? The way I play it, if there needs to be any type of INT check, the two players are discussing the issue, and it ends up that the one player says something the jogs the other persons memory or helps them make a connection.
@ stormknight, that's a cool and everything, but it's a little off topic... unless the point of your example was to illustrate that you "don't do" this type of advantage/assistance at all, and instead just offer low-difficulty pieces of info that are easy to get IF you bother/think to "look there" or "do that." If that's what you meant, I'd say it explicitly. Otherwise, I'm afraid I don't understand the relevance of your example. You find a book covered in weird runes and the wizard says "let me see that, sir, I've studied 10score years in a well stocked mages tower and, short of divinity, or some new language unknown to this plane of existance, I should be able to make something of this book!... A nearby rogue also has +2 INT and +3 proficiency, and is ready to assist. Do you allow the wizard to roll +8 with advantage? Do you set the DC as if the "help action" didn't exist and expect the rogue to find his own corner to investigate? something else?
There is something to be said for disallowing "help" actions entirely. DCs are set at levels that are "attainable" without help (and usually the DC of the lock is inversely proportional to the story value of whatever is behind it. If that strange book is just window dressing, then discovering what it is might be nearly impossible (at the moment?) whereas if it's the actual spellbook to banish or control the evil thingy that you need to vanquish, then likely the DC will be set lower. Maybe a 20-25.
Maintaining depth, and keeping auto-successes and auto-fails to a minimum is not a terrible attitude.
I generally solve the sore feelings about rolling a 1 by having a hard bottom to a trained skill...
If a person is trained the worst they can do is 10+skill modifier which rewards having the skill trained.
I apply the same logic to the help action a trained person adds their modifier to the hard bottom.
as for everyone rolling for a check that is fine but untrained people who don't at least clear half the difficulty make those that do have the skill trained roll with disadvantage and a -2 on the hard bottom...