Okay, so a week or two ago I got really bored and decided to try to build all seven playable characters from Chrono Trigger in 5e. I think it was spurred by discovering that Grung existed, and that led to thinking about Frog/Glenn.
Anyway, after I build all the character sheets, I started thinking about how I'd try to incorporate the double/triple techs from that game into a 5e game. And frankly...I haven't cooked up anything I really like yet. I assume the "tech" itself, whether it's a martial skill of some type (like X-Strike), a fully magical one (Megavolt) or a hybrid thing (Fire Whirl) would have to be crafted unto itself as a new spell/feature rather than use an existing spell, but a lot of the mechanics of just engaging the tech and fitting it into combat have eluded me.
Obviously, a double tech would use both involved characters' primary action for that round, as would a triple tech, just for three characters instead of two, but how do we account for Initiative order? How would we balance the damage so that it's actually worthwhile to use over just having everyone take their own solo turns? How do we create a cost (spell slots aren't enough, as some of these are all martial or half-martial) that prevents them from being spammed? Is a Long Rest refresher enough? Short rest? Could employment of a combo tech-type move prevent the participants from using move or bonus actions in that round of combat?
I have a lot of questions, and I was wondering if anyone out there had any ideas. I don't know if I'll ever use anything like this, but once I got on the Chrono Trigger train it became a kind of thought experiment I just couldn't get rid of.
Ooooh. While I don't have any ideas as of yet, I have to say that I am -very- curious about this project as Chrono Trigger is a game I hold very close to my heart!
1. Their turns must be sequential (but any order will do), meaning they may need to hold their actions; and
2. I would say that the skills employed must use a resource (spell slots, ki points, superiority dice, second winds, action surges, Relentless Rage, etc) that is consumed under whatever restrictions the skill imposes (ie. a Barbarian must succeed on ever more difficult Relentless Rage saving throws for their portion of the skill to be included, as if they were using Relentless Rage normally).
I think where I'm going to start is coming up with a specific Double Tech for specific characters. Maybe between my wife's Minotaur Barb and my Sons Aarakocra Monk. Once I have an idea of what the specific Technique is, it'll be easier to game out how it'll work mechanically, especially given damage disparities. It may help to zero in on specific moves those characters have to create the new combo move, as Chrono Trigger's combo Techs were always a combination of existing solo Techs (i.e. Fire Whirl being Chrono's Cyclone and Lucca's Flame Toss).
I will almost definitely be using Warranto's points as a starter, though not all classes/subclasses will use finite resources like ki points or superiority dice, so it may need to be more of a 1/LR situation. Maybe upping it at later levels. 1/LR for every five levels, maybe? First at character level 5, then at 10, you can do two, and so on? At least for Double Techs. Triples should maybe be 1/LR starting at character level 14 or something and just stay there.
Sequential turns is a great idea, and I may even go so far as to make the combo move take place on the latter of the two (or three for Triples) involved characters' turns. There should be penalties, or some measure of sacrifice to balance out any damage boosts gained. And damage boosts are kinda non-negotiable, because if there aren't any, why give up two (or three) characters' turns to do one move?
Below are the two characters I'm thinking of using to create a single Double Tech as sort of a practice/test case:
After mathing out average per-turn damage for those two characters and looking at their sum, I am very much considering using d20s for the damage dice. Average comes out to similar, higher top end, depressingly low minimum damage on hit. Big risk, big reward. I'm also looking at reducing Initiative for the remainder of an encounter, as well as reduced move speed after completion of the double Tech.
Once I have something harder written down, I'll come back and see if I can lay it all out for smarter people than I to look over.
Any news on this? I'd love to see an example, because I've been playing Chrono Trigger lately and I just can't imagine how it could work in 5e. I'd love to see a matrix chart with an ability that all the classes in the game could do with each other class.
My thoughts on this are about how to make a double tech (1) powerful enough to be better than just each player taking their turn individually, and (2) risky enough that it has a chance of being worse than each player taking their turn individually.
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Check out my blog for homebrew D&D stuff and other projects!
Well, holy crap. This is not a thread I ever expected to see pop back up again.
I had a hard time drumming up interest so I kind of discarded the idea, but I did a lot of math before throwing it all out and had...something of a solution, though I wouldn't say it was optimal. I first came to the conclusion that each tech would have to be custom to the specific characters in the campaign, at the very least regarding flavor, but probably also mechanics to some degree.
I tried working up a sample tech using two characters, my wife's Minotaur Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, and our oldest kid's Aarakocra Sun Soul Monk. Flavor was something regarding the Monk carrying the Barbarian and dropping them on an enemy for an AoE effect with a good radius. I don't have any of the notes I made handy, so a lot of this is guesswork and half-remembered ideas, but as I recall, the tech could be initiated by whichever one of them was higher in the initiative order (with consent from the other) and required use of both their actions, and also prevented either of them from using bonus actions, reactions, or movement until the start of the next turns in the following round, other than the movement included in the tech itself.
Then damage calculation got weird. Basically, I jotted down what each of their standard turns would be, using extra attacks, bonus action (for Monk Ki stuff) and so on, then did math on the minimum damage (rolling all ones for damage dice, but not attack dice) would be for their combined "standard" turns, the maximum damage (rolling top possible on damage dice, but discounting crits) for those "standard" turns, then also the average damage (using standard calculation of average damage, re: half the die's max + 0.5, i.e. average damage on a d6 being 3.5, half on a d8 being 4.5, and so on) for the same "standard turns."
Then what I did was take the max damage calculations for those standard turns (lets just say 100 damage for simplicity's sake) and tried to figure how many d20s would have an average damage that represented those standard turns' max damage, if that makes sense. Average damage on 9d20 comes out to 94.5, which is pretty close without going over (Price is Right rules!) which was also reflective of D&D's standard "round down" rule, as 10d20's average damage would be 105. So the damage of that particularly double tech would be 9d20.
I know d20 damage dice is a big no-no in homebrew circles because it's "too swingy," but by my reckoning...that was the point of this exercise. You wanted something that could pay out big, but also ran the risk of being worse than individual turns. So...swingy is the point. With 9d20, that's a range of 9-180 damage. Meaning you could potentially do either 91 less damage than the max of the two characters taking individual turns, but also potentially 80 more damage than the max (which was 100 for this example) damage of characters taking individual turns.
As I recall, I was granting advantage on attack/to-hit, since if you think about it there's sort of a Help action built into the concept, and the inherent swinginess was enough of a downside that missing on the thing was going to be way more disappointing than it was worth on top of that. So standard "rules" that I would probably apply to all double techs would be:
-Attack advantage -Initiated by whichever of the two participants was higher in the initiative order with consent of the other (via table talk) -Requires full Action of both participants -Prevents use of any bonus actions, reactions, or movement (other than that included in the description of the double tech) by the participants until beginning of their next turn in the following round -And I believe It was something you could use a number of times equal to half-prof/LR, minimum of 1. So you'd get one use at level 1, then a second use at 9, a third use at 17. Those uses would be tracked by both characters, as well. One use from each character, so if two characters used one at level 7, they'd both need to have a long rest before they could do it again, even with different party members, if that makes sense.
Triple techs would be functionally very similar, except that they'd involve three characters. Depending on the party, if it's a party of five, I might only do double techs, then skip triples and just do a single quintuple-tech that used the whole party at once. But I never got that far. It may be functionally impossible to do anything above a double tech without utterly breaking the game instead of just bending it a bit.
The biggest downside for creation was that, to really feel worthwhile, A) you gotta have them swingy d20 damage dice, and B) you kinda have to custom-create each one for your party members instead of just having class-specific ones. I suppose you could do the latter, but it's going to feel a lot less rewarding to the players. Yes, you could have a sort of standardized Fighter/Cleric one, but if the Fighter in your party is a Psi Warrior and your party's Cleric is a Grave Domain Cleric, it's going to be a lot less fun for them if you don't have the telekinetic/zombie-smashing stuff baked in from the jump.
I suppose you could do a gigantic matrix by subclass rather than just by class, but the sample one I tried to homebrew involved one character who was an Aarakocra flying while carrying the other character, which is a function of race, rather than class. The infinite combinations and things you can do just led me to believe that fully custom ones for each pair of characters using a handful of basic guidelines was the way to go. But I also couldn't get much interest or input, so I did eventually drop the idea.
I don't think it's remotely impossible, but I do think it's really hard.
I did this very thing using feats. In my case, after every combat, they roll a d 20 for a group coordination check. as those averages have met a certain level I give out battle techs, ( at this point only between 2 characters.)
These techs are based off moves my players tend to gravitate towards in combat, so as not to force them into a roll (tank caster etc) that is unnatural.
Example being Holy Blitz. It has been divided into 2 portions:
Holy Blitz (Dual - Caster).
Prerequisite: Requires the ability cast spells
Enchant an ally’s weapon with radiance to strike a foe.
Cast any Cantrip or 1st level spell that deals radiant damage with a Casting Time of 1 action. (I.e. Word of Radiance, Sacred Flame, Guiding Bolt). The target must be in Range of your ally with the Feat “Holy Blitz (Dual - Martial)” for their Readied melee or range Attack action.
Your ally rolls to Attack, with Advantage. On a hit, roll the damage for the spell attack.
______________________________________
and Holy Blitz (Dual - Martial
Prerequisite: Requires a Dexterity score of 13 or higher
Strike a foe with an enchanted radiant weapon.
To do so, Ready a melee or ranged Attack action on Your Turn, holding your Reaction for Spellcaster with the Feat “Holy Blitz (Dual - Caster)” to cast any Cantrip or 1st level spell that deals fire damage with a Casting Time of 1 action. (I.e.Word of Radiance, Sacred Flame, Guiding Bolt).
Roll an Attack with Advantage. On a hit, roll the damage for the weapon damage, adding +5 to the attack's radiant damage.
The way I have them working, neither is possible without the other. it incites coordination and communication for a flat boon. they can use as many times as they like. the caveat is eventually they will out level this bonus, therefore prompting a grander version of this Feat. Hence the label of Dual.
I have a few of these crafted as basic Techs, however my favorites being implored currently is a particular one I made called
"Held Exhale (Dual - Melee)
Prerequisite: Requires the ability to readily use Melee weapons
Your patience in fighting tactics has taught you to gain distance from an enemy's movement, gaining the following benefits:
Creatures provoke opportunity attacks from you if they are up to10ft away when leaving your reach.
When an ally hits a creature with a ranged opportunity attack, and that ally has the "Held Exhale (Dual - Range) feat", you can move up to 10ft immediately after the attack and as part of the same reaction. This movement does provoke opportunity attacks.
and Held Exhale (Dual - Range)
Prerequisite: Ability to readily use Ranged Weapons
You have mastered patience to take advantage of a drop in any enemy's guard, gaining the following benefits:
When you hit a creature with a ranged opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes halved for the rest of the turn.
When an ally hits a creature with an opportunity attack, and that ally has the "Held Exhale (Dual - Melee) feat", you can use your reaction to make a ranged weapon attack against the moving creature.
This was specifically crafted after a tough encounter for my level 4 players in a narrow canyon pass against a group of Salamanders. Both the players these went to rolled exceptionally high on the after combat group coordination check, and the players really needed some assistance in the areas that these boons granted.
You can see these are pulled from a variety of source material such as Vengeance Paladin for the moving as a reaction and the feat Sentinel and pole arm master. My games are typically quite a challenge, and I have no problem giving my players things to make them feel very original and organic, so long as they know I will match them accordingly.
Hopefully, someone finds this useful or entertaining, I'm enjoying this.
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Okay, so a week or two ago I got really bored and decided to try to build all seven playable characters from Chrono Trigger in 5e. I think it was spurred by discovering that Grung existed, and that led to thinking about Frog/Glenn.
Anyway, after I build all the character sheets, I started thinking about how I'd try to incorporate the double/triple techs from that game into a 5e game. And frankly...I haven't cooked up anything I really like yet. I assume the "tech" itself, whether it's a martial skill of some type (like X-Strike), a fully magical one (Megavolt) or a hybrid thing (Fire Whirl) would have to be crafted unto itself as a new spell/feature rather than use an existing spell, but a lot of the mechanics of just engaging the tech and fitting it into combat have eluded me.
Obviously, a double tech would use both involved characters' primary action for that round, as would a triple tech, just for three characters instead of two, but how do we account for Initiative order? How would we balance the damage so that it's actually worthwhile to use over just having everyone take their own solo turns? How do we create a cost (spell slots aren't enough, as some of these are all martial or half-martial) that prevents them from being spammed? Is a Long Rest refresher enough? Short rest? Could employment of a combo tech-type move prevent the participants from using move or bonus actions in that round of combat?
I have a lot of questions, and I was wondering if anyone out there had any ideas. I don't know if I'll ever use anything like this, but once I got on the Chrono Trigger train it became a kind of thought experiment I just couldn't get rid of.
Ooooh. While I don't have any ideas as of yet, I have to say that I am -very- curious about this project as Chrono Trigger is a game I hold very close to my heart!
"You can certainly try!"
A couple of suggestions to get started:
1. Their turns must be sequential (but any order will do), meaning they may need to hold their actions; and
2. I would say that the skills employed must use a resource (spell slots, ki points, superiority dice, second winds, action surges, Relentless Rage, etc) that is consumed under whatever restrictions the skill imposes (ie. a Barbarian must succeed on ever more difficult Relentless Rage saving throws for their portion of the skill to be included, as if they were using Relentless Rage normally).
I think where I'm going to start is coming up with a specific Double Tech for specific characters. Maybe between my wife's Minotaur Barb and my Sons Aarakocra Monk. Once I have an idea of what the specific Technique is, it'll be easier to game out how it'll work mechanically, especially given damage disparities. It may help to zero in on specific moves those characters have to create the new combo move, as Chrono Trigger's combo Techs were always a combination of existing solo Techs (i.e. Fire Whirl being Chrono's Cyclone and Lucca's Flame Toss).
I will almost definitely be using Warranto's points as a starter, though not all classes/subclasses will use finite resources like ki points or superiority dice, so it may need to be more of a 1/LR situation. Maybe upping it at later levels. 1/LR for every five levels, maybe? First at character level 5, then at 10, you can do two, and so on? At least for Double Techs. Triples should maybe be 1/LR starting at character level 14 or something and just stay there.
Sequential turns is a great idea, and I may even go so far as to make the combo move take place on the latter of the two (or three for Triples) involved characters' turns. There should be penalties, or some measure of sacrifice to balance out any damage boosts gained. And damage boosts are kinda non-negotiable, because if there aren't any, why give up two (or three) characters' turns to do one move?
Below are the two characters I'm thinking of using to create a single Double Tech as sort of a practice/test case:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/TinyHeater/characters/29121040
https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/GaffoTheBoy/characters/29145298
After mathing out average per-turn damage for those two characters and looking at their sum, I am very much considering using d20s for the damage dice. Average comes out to similar, higher top end, depressingly low minimum damage on hit. Big risk, big reward. I'm also looking at reducing Initiative for the remainder of an encounter, as well as reduced move speed after completion of the double Tech.
Once I have something harder written down, I'll come back and see if I can lay it all out for smarter people than I to look over.
Any news on this? I'd love to see an example, because I've been playing Chrono Trigger lately and I just can't imagine how it could work in 5e. I'd love to see a matrix chart with an ability that all the classes in the game could do with each other class.
My thoughts on this are about how to make a double tech (1) powerful enough to be better than just each player taking their turn individually, and (2) risky enough that it has a chance of being worse than each player taking their turn individually.
Check out my blog for homebrew D&D stuff and other projects!
Well, holy crap. This is not a thread I ever expected to see pop back up again.
I had a hard time drumming up interest so I kind of discarded the idea, but I did a lot of math before throwing it all out and had...something of a solution, though I wouldn't say it was optimal. I first came to the conclusion that each tech would have to be custom to the specific characters in the campaign, at the very least regarding flavor, but probably also mechanics to some degree.
I tried working up a sample tech using two characters, my wife's Minotaur Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, and our oldest kid's Aarakocra Sun Soul Monk. Flavor was something regarding the Monk carrying the Barbarian and dropping them on an enemy for an AoE effect with a good radius. I don't have any of the notes I made handy, so a lot of this is guesswork and half-remembered ideas, but as I recall, the tech could be initiated by whichever one of them was higher in the initiative order (with consent from the other) and required use of both their actions, and also prevented either of them from using bonus actions, reactions, or movement until the start of the next turns in the following round, other than the movement included in the tech itself.
Then damage calculation got weird. Basically, I jotted down what each of their standard turns would be, using extra attacks, bonus action (for Monk Ki stuff) and so on, then did math on the minimum damage (rolling all ones for damage dice, but not attack dice) would be for their combined "standard" turns, the maximum damage (rolling top possible on damage dice, but discounting crits) for those "standard" turns, then also the average damage (using standard calculation of average damage, re: half the die's max + 0.5, i.e. average damage on a d6 being 3.5, half on a d8 being 4.5, and so on) for the same "standard turns."
Then what I did was take the max damage calculations for those standard turns (lets just say 100 damage for simplicity's sake) and tried to figure how many d20s would have an average damage that represented those standard turns' max damage, if that makes sense. Average damage on 9d20 comes out to 94.5, which is pretty close without going over (Price is Right rules!) which was also reflective of D&D's standard "round down" rule, as 10d20's average damage would be 105. So the damage of that particularly double tech would be 9d20.
I know d20 damage dice is a big no-no in homebrew circles because it's "too swingy," but by my reckoning...that was the point of this exercise. You wanted something that could pay out big, but also ran the risk of being worse than individual turns. So...swingy is the point. With 9d20, that's a range of 9-180 damage. Meaning you could potentially do either 91 less damage than the max of the two characters taking individual turns, but also potentially 80 more damage than the max (which was 100 for this example) damage of characters taking individual turns.
As I recall, I was granting advantage on attack/to-hit, since if you think about it there's sort of a Help action built into the concept, and the inherent swinginess was enough of a downside that missing on the thing was going to be way more disappointing than it was worth on top of that. So standard "rules" that I would probably apply to all double techs would be:
-Attack advantage
-Initiated by whichever of the two participants was higher in the initiative order with consent of the other (via table talk)
-Requires full Action of both participants
-Prevents use of any bonus actions, reactions, or movement (other than that included in the description of the double tech) by the participants until beginning of their next turn in the following round
-And I believe It was something you could use a number of times equal to half-prof/LR, minimum of 1. So you'd get one use at level 1, then a second use at 9, a third use at 17. Those uses would be tracked by both characters, as well. One use from each character, so if two characters used one at level 7, they'd both need to have a long rest before they could do it again, even with different party members, if that makes sense.
Triple techs would be functionally very similar, except that they'd involve three characters. Depending on the party, if it's a party of five, I might only do double techs, then skip triples and just do a single quintuple-tech that used the whole party at once. But I never got that far. It may be functionally impossible to do anything above a double tech without utterly breaking the game instead of just bending it a bit.
The biggest downside for creation was that, to really feel worthwhile, A) you gotta have them swingy d20 damage dice, and B) you kinda have to custom-create each one for your party members instead of just having class-specific ones. I suppose you could do the latter, but it's going to feel a lot less rewarding to the players. Yes, you could have a sort of standardized Fighter/Cleric one, but if the Fighter in your party is a Psi Warrior and your party's Cleric is a Grave Domain Cleric, it's going to be a lot less fun for them if you don't have the telekinetic/zombie-smashing stuff baked in from the jump.
I suppose you could do a gigantic matrix by subclass rather than just by class, but the sample one I tried to homebrew involved one character who was an Aarakocra flying while carrying the other character, which is a function of race, rather than class. The infinite combinations and things you can do just led me to believe that fully custom ones for each pair of characters using a handful of basic guidelines was the way to go. But I also couldn't get much interest or input, so I did eventually drop the idea.
I don't think it's remotely impossible, but I do think it's really hard.
I did this very thing using feats. In my case, after every combat, they roll a d 20 for a group coordination check. as those averages have met a certain level I give out battle techs, ( at this point only between 2 characters.)
These techs are based off moves my players tend to gravitate towards in combat, so as not to force them into a roll (tank caster etc) that is unnatural.
Example being Holy Blitz. It has been divided into 2 portions:
Holy Blitz (Dual - Caster).
Enchant an ally’s weapon with radiance to strike a foe.
______________________________________
and Holy Blitz (Dual - Martial
Strike a foe with an enchanted radiant weapon.
_________________________________________________________
The way I have them working, neither is possible without the other. it incites coordination and communication for a flat boon. they can use as many times as they like. the caveat is eventually they will out level this bonus, therefore prompting a grander version of this Feat. Hence the label of Dual.
I have a few of these crafted as basic Techs, however my favorites being implored currently is a particular one I made called
"Held Exhale (Dual - Melee)
Your patience in fighting tactics has taught you to gain distance from an enemy's movement, gaining the following benefits:
and Held Exhale (Dual - Range)
You have mastered patience to take advantage of a drop in any enemy's guard, gaining the following benefits:
This was specifically crafted after a tough encounter for my level 4 players in a narrow canyon pass against a group of Salamanders. Both the players these went to rolled exceptionally high on the after combat group coordination check, and the players really needed some assistance in the areas that these boons granted.
You can see these are pulled from a variety of source material such as Vengeance Paladin for the moving as a reaction and the feat Sentinel and pole arm master. My games are typically quite a challenge, and I have no problem giving my players things to make them feel very original and organic, so long as they know I will match them accordingly.
Hopefully, someone finds this useful or entertaining, I'm enjoying this.