"Anyone who knows you for more than five minutes immediately understands that you are a good and sensitive person, Rash..." Anita hugs the half-orc wizard, holding him close "If this is the effect of orc education, I believe that such education is absolutely underestimated".

Quote from Painted_Beyond >>

Solitude is very perplexed... "Rash... I may have been wrong, in the past, in predicting the effects of your naivety... In fact, by trusting Anita, you were right... but I can tell you that, even trying as hard as I can, I can hardly believe Mhurren Flick's capacity for redemption? I have the impression that even if he survived the ordeal you want to propose to him, he wouldn't be grateful to you... and would run off to try to organize a new gang of Zhentarim with to take revenge on us!"

"Mhurren I don't know, actually... I have the same doubts of Solitude, about him..." Anita ponders "But Bjorn could. I don't know how much chance he has of surviving a magical trap... but if he did, maybe he could change his life. He, maybe, could be a victim of circumstance - at least as much as I was. If I had to advise anyone, I'd tell you to try Bjorn".

Gaer, in the meantime, looks perplexed at his sister: "I don't know who to sponsor, plus, yes, sharing Roxana's concern... I don't know if this idea of using people as 'guinea pigs' meets with the approval of those who care about the salvation of the souls of this group... "

 "As far as souls go," Spira answers her brother's prompt, "I think the better question is if the whole idea meets with the approval of Zentromya.  She's more acquainted with the ultimate fate of souls than we are.  And we'll need her help to do this.  We could set it before her fairly, the arguments and concerns everyone's brought up on both sides, and see what she says."

========

(if there's one thing Sergeant Quspira Inirali learned in the Watch, it's the fine art of kicking it up the chain of command ... ah, I mean, delegating to one's superiors ... in knotty cases LOL)

The half-orc pulls his beloved close with a smile.

"Well, I appreciate that a lot," he says with a chuckle. "But let's be honest... I'm completely willing to acknowledge that this isn't a very nice idea."

He pauses, then chuckles.

"Or I suppose Aidwyn and I could try to drag one of the animated armors down here and toss it into the chamber to see what happens. But even for us that would be pretty risky..."

""What, Rash?," says Spira.  "You wrestle a big hairy devil and yet you think you'll have problems with a poor lamb of a suit of armor?"  She winks at both of them.

“If we follow Spira's advice and consult Zentromya, perhaps you, who are on good terms with her, might be able to convince her to try entering herself” Ardjena speculates, nervously playing with a lock of carrot-colored hair. "The Hollyphant's magical defenses are remarkable... I admit I don't know them in detail, but I really know they are remarkable".

"I certainly won't be the one to propose something like that to her!" Gaer replies, a little abruptly "But talking to her, as my sister advised, is perhaps really the best thing. Who better than a Celestial can help in case of moral doubts? Because, Rash, you know, I have personally seen your ability in wrestling, but to drag, even with help, a non-cooperating enemy through all of level 2, the stairs and part of level 3 until throwing him into the room that interests us... all without being able to count on the protection of a flag, because you would need your hands free for grappling... I fear that it would be a challenging task even for you. So... shall we all go to Zentromya?"

"Perhaps I should go talk alone to Zentromya first and explain things.," says Spira.  "We don't want any misunderstandings when she first sees Ardjena if we haven't had a chance to tell her of the offer she's made."

"Who better to deal with a messenger from Elysium than a messenger from Arvandor?" Gaer takes on an exaggeratedly solemn tone and winks at his sister "Let's leave room for celestial diplomacy. Go, supreme Quspira, and don't leave us humble and pious faithful waiting too long!"

"I'll be back in two shakes of a hollyphant's tail!," Spira replies as she breezes out of the room (after checking with Rash and Anita about where they left Zentromya).  Once she closes the door, though, she leans against it and draws a heavy sigh.  "Hoo boy.  Me and my big mouth."

As she enters the room where the hollyphant waits, Spira begins tentatively, "Um ... Zentromya ... this is a little delicate but ... Ardjena, Kylth's apprentice?  She was apparently locked in a time freeze spell and ... only woke up when we were running from a fear  spell and ran into the wrong alcove.  The experience ... shook her complacency a bit, and I was able to take the opportunity to ... remind her that the beings she'd captured had the same impotent longing to go home.  She's said she's ... willing to apologize, even ... offer amends, though she wasn't sure what she ... had that she could offer.  But she ... really does need help too.  I do believe she wasn't as hardened in the evil as her master was and could be redeemed; and she truly is as lost and alone now as all the other survivors of Kylth's dungeon.  But I also know it's a lot to ask you."

=========

Persuasion 22

Roxana shakes her head, her eyes drifting to Gaer. "My choice is made - reviving someone just to put them at risk is wrong. We don't need to consult other-planar beings to decide that. And just how much can we abuse Zentromya's abiltiies. Can she just resurrect all people at all times? Why even care about life and death then?" 

She seems annoyed at the decisions, or lack of decision making, from the group. "If we're worried about magic traps of some sort, can't someone ferret that out? Isn't that a pretty simple magical thing to do? I mean, for those who are magically inclined?" 

She moves to stand off to herself while waiting for Spira's consultation with Zentomaya to proceed. 

"We could try," Rash says doubtfully. "But the guy who set this place up was clearly an EXTREMELY skilled wizard and traps are, well, traps. They're not designed to be easily sniffed out. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if each glyph he laid down is hidden by an arcanist's magic aura."

"I am perfectly willing to believe that Ardjena is not as corrupt as Kylth was..." Zentromya replies, with a telepathic tone of voice in Spira's mind that suggests a smile "Rash had already told me that you had come across her - and that , for some reason, she looked the same as she did 250 years ago. I remember how Ardjena collaborated with Kylth, helping him in his experiments, without posing any major moral dilemmas - and this is certainly not a good thing" the hollyphant shakes her tail a first time. "But if, now that she has come to her hour of pain and confusion, she is understanding the mistakes she has made, she does not need to 'offer' me anything at all... A sincere apology and sincere repentance will be more than enough, as far as I am concerned! In Elysium there is more joy for a repentant sinner than for all the souls of heroes who are already present! Indeed, at that point, if it is possible for me to help her in any way, I will gladly do so. Let's go! Lead me to her!" the hollyphant shakes her tail a second time.

"I agree that reviving someone just to put them at risk is wrong, Roxana..." Gaer seems doubtful, as he awaits his sister's return "But I don't forget" his eyes become hard "what 'someone' has done to me, Milo and Solitude, while we were prisoners. We are not talking about good people here... But about scoundrels who had no problem in stealing, killing, enslaving... One of them has redeemed herself," his eyes run for a moment to Anita "but not others yet... And towards them, it's not that I feel an overwhelming feeling of pity, at the thought of them being put in danger..."

Then the tiefling keeps silent, while Rash answers on the question of magic... and evidently, in the meantime, two shakes of a hollyphant's tail pass, because the ambassadors of Arvandor and Elysium make their joint entrance into the great hall.

Ardjena instinctively hides behind Roxana, whereupon Zentromya tells her (including everyone in the telepathic conversation): "It's really true then... It's you. And you haven't changed. What happened to you has you suspended from time - and now you are among us, alone and lost - and in the presence of one of the creatures whose essence you helped try to 'extract'. They told me" the winged gold furred miniature she-elephant has in the meantime become more and more next to the young apprentice "was there something you wanted to tell me about it?"

Aidwyn listen to Ardjena's history and gives her a hint or two to ask for Zentromya forgiveness.

When the whole idea of bringing back the dead zhentarim to send them to death Aidwyn seems horrorized

"I am not even sure why are we discussing this. NO! we are not going to do that... have you all lost your minds?! She said " Aidwyn points to the former wizard apprentice "that the glyphs are only usable once unless recasted. We already got rid of it. I will walk through the doors and if I get killed by some magic spell casted a hundred of years ago I hope you can bring me back " she pleads to Zentromya "If not... well at least you'll be safe and your souls would be free of such terrible things you were talking about... " 

"Do not even think about it!" Solitude intervenes, standing in front of Aidwyn with her hands on her hips "There is no knowledge worth the life of a person like you!"

"So," Ardjena summarizes, in the meantime "I admit that I am not too familiar with these moral questions to which you give so much weight, but if I understand correctly, the idea is... You will not resuscitate test subjects - because they would risk dying - and therefore... you will leave them dead as they are now" the young girl actually seems confused... she has no intention of causing controversy; she is just struggling and thinking about issues that, up to now, she has always carefully ignored. "And that's a better outcome, in your eyes. Right?"

"The question is not as simple as you make it, Ardjena..." Zentromya patiently tries to explain "There would be nothing wrong with giving back life, as a gift, to a person who is worthy of it. While it is a different matter entirelt, returning life as a debt to force someone to let themselves be used. That would be like... 'thingifying' a person - and it would be something very serious, because people are not things, they are not tools to be used, they are not, like you call them, 'test subjects', a term I have heard far too many times from the lips of your mentor Kylth Harpell. If I considered you worthless, Ardjena, why should I not destroy you, after all you have helped your Master to do me? You are of no use to me now, Ardjena. And what's more, you have wronged me. Why shouldn't I take revenge? Start experimenting on you to 'absorb your essence'? Or even just eliminate you, so as to be sure you won't do anything bad to anyone anymore?"

"No!" the young girl throws herself on her knees, frightened "Don't do it, Zentromya! I apologize! I... I didn't understand! It seemed right to me what we were doing! Master Kylth used to say 'Imprison one, to study a hundred, if you allow me to say so' - he had a purpose, he wanted the progress of magic, of knowledge, which is what most distinguishes humanoids from beasts... I... But I understand your point of view Zentromya... Maybe… Maybe Master Kylth could be wrong sometimes”.

"I think you understand, Ardjena" the she-hollyphant delicately places her trunk on the bowed head of the young apprentice. "Life's trials can be cruel - yet sometimes they bring us lessons. And you wizards like teachings, right? Don't worry... not only will I not hurt you, but, if I can, I will help you... both to settle into this time that is not yet yours - but which will have to become yours, it seems - and to become a better person. And do you know why I will do this?"

"Because I am a person and not a thing?" reflects the young girl, looking up at the celestial creature.

"Exactly!" Zentromya seems partially satisfied "But do you understand what difference it makes, that you are a person and not a thing?"

"That I'm not a tool..." Ardjena begins to mutter, searching for a satisfactory answer, which for now, however, eludes her.

“Are you good at math, Ardjena?” Zentromya then sighs.

"Certainly!" the young girl is this time so much more confident, that she even dares to stand up again.

"If you had a thousand loaves, Ardjena; no, more than that," the celestial corrects herself "a thousand times a thousand..."

"You can say a million," Ardjena helps her amicably "I know how much a thousand times a thousand is".

"Well," sighs Zentromya "if you had a million loaves of bread, Ardjena, and one of them was destroyed... How many would you have left?"

"Nine hundred and ninety-nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine, obviously" the other replies confidently.

"What a number... my head is spinning!" admits Zentromya "Well, and nine hundred and ninety-nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine is much less than a million?"

"No," Ardjena is sure "the difference is negligible".

"Good!" approves Zentromya "Now, imagine that you have a million people with you, Ardjena, and one of them is destroyed... How many would be left?"

"Nine hundred and ninety-nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine, again" replies Ardjena.

“And nine hundred and ninety-nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine people,” the she-hollyphant insists “is that much less than a million?”

"No, Zentromya, I told you before!" Ardjena doesn't understand where the other is going "The difference is negligible".

“And here you are wrong, Ardjena” sighs Zentromya. "There are many, many, many fewer. It is much less. Because people are not bread, Ardjena. Every person has a spark of the gods within themselves. Every person has a disproportionate value, Ardjena, a value that cannot even be calculated. One less person is an infinity less. This is what you must mainly try to remember. You cannot apply the mathematics of loaves to people - you must apply to people a mathematics that takes into account their real value. It is for this," the she-hollyphant gently places his trunk on her shoulder "that I don't want to punish you, but to help you, Ardjena, do you understand? I know what you're worth. And as long as you don't endanger other people - who have no less dignity or worth than you , I will try to help you".

"I... maybe I understand" Ardjena ventures a comparison. "I have to learn to consider people like spells! One spell less, is much, much, much less. Because every spell has its characteristics and its uses" her eyes begin to shine, as she finally talks about a topic she loves, that is, magic. "Each spell is unique and unrepeatable and enriches the multiverse. If you know nine hundred and ninety-nine thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine spells, but not the one you need in your specific situation, it's as if you know nothing. And people are... kind like this".

"I knew you were good at learning" Zentromya seems satisfied.

The she-hollyphant then turns to all of you: "If there's this dangerous place to explore, maybe I'd better go ahead... I have good defenses against spells".

"Are you absolutely certain?" Rash asks the little elephant. "You have your defenses... but that wizard apparently had powers that were strong enough to entrap you, and I think we all care about your safety..."

He sighs.

"But... you are right that you probably have the best chance of getting in and out safely. And Aidwyn... there is no way in the Nine Hells we're sending you in there ahead of us. If you get hit with, for example, a confusion spell, I don't know how well things would go if we had to try to subdue you."

"Absolutely.," Spira agrees.  "You have infinite value too, as you are a person too ... and I extend that term to all sentient beings.  Any being that has a personality.  And we owe you so much already.  Only if you're absolutely certain.  And we'll do anything we can to strengthen and support you, if our magics can help bolster yours.  I haven't been working with Rash long enough to know quite what tricks he's got up his spellbook; but I could, for instance, invoke protection upon you against summoned guardians for ten minutes, or a more general blessing for one.  And when you go in, I can summon the spear of Angharradh to go with you the first sixty feet."

“I'm all too aware that I'm not immune to all the possible sorcerous threats Kylth may have left” Zentromya admits. "I remember all too well, that he managed to capture me and hold me prisoner... but I still feel that I am the best protected. Many of his spells would simply not work within my aura... only the really strong ones could. So, yes, I am convinced, I'll try... Protect me as best you can, then I'll go in".

The winged gold-furred she-elephant starts heading towards the dreaded door...

"Zentromya?" Ardjena calls, while following her - and as soon as the celestial turns to listen, she goes on "Be careful, ok?"

Once near the door, the young apprentice tells: "I can't buff our celestial explorer, but I can try to sense if there is magic inside... It's a ritual that might take several minutes - and some magic sources could as well have been hidden from divination, by manipulating their aura as Rash hypothesized before, but this it is the best I can offer, in this situation. I'll also be able to teleport inside and try getting Zentromya back, if something goes wrong".

"I'd better cast the second.  There's no telling what the defenses will be...and my goddess has always liked a good argument ," says Spira, drawing out a small bottle of holy water.  "She'll allow me to bless three beings for one minute, so I don't see why I can't bless one being for three minutes."  Whenever Zentromya is ready to start, she goes over to her with an asperger carved in the shape of a spray of oak leaves, and then begins a three-minute-long hypnotic chant in Elvish.

========

[spellBless[/spell]

Well, it's Bless I presume 😉

Roxana seems content with the conclusions being reached. As it appears Zentromya will be heading into the room first, Roxana nods at the aid being given to the creature. "Great. We should all be ready near at hand to act if somehing goes awry. We can certainly help out as best we can."