So far, off to a good start. Will be curious if any of the facets of build-a-race are overpowered or underpowered yet, but we'll see. Seems like you can break the world with Scholar, lol.
People keep saying that about Scholar, but I think I just need to explain it better. The fact that the DM can veto any suggestion that's problematic is the major limiting factor. Several other game systems (Exalted, Fate, etc) make the effect of Critical Information a standard rule available to anyone. It makes knowledge-based characters operate more like they do in narrative fiction.
True, the balancing factor being the more outlandish, the higher the DC (up to and including "impossible"/veto'ed). I guess the only disconnect is if its use effects another player character and doesn't fit their own vision -- perhaps if a fact directly effects a PC, they also can veto? That is, the PC can say, "Where did you read that? That's not true about me at all." if it's something they don't want to run with.
Eclipse's facts about dragon waste products, for example. Whether true or not, that was not something I particularly wanted to roleplay around, so I sort of did a soft veto in-character.
I get that, and I feel like it’s something that we kind of do anyway (to a smaller extent) when fleshing out backstory or making smalltalk in character. It’s definitely something very interesting.
I really wanted to try the cannibal and I’m looking forward to seeing how it plays out. I do expect the cannibal to be slightly underpowered since most martial classes have some way of boosting their damage which the cannibal (currently) lacks. I think it might become more apparent around level 5 when most classes get extra attack.
The consuming ability score/feature could prove me completely wrong about power level, but if that’s completely permanent then it could feel like a waste to level up before you’ve faced anything with a desirable trait. It might work better with a slot based system like the trophy form. OR - You hold onto those traits until you use your trophy form then lose the traits - could bring a real constant cycle of hunting stronger prey vibe.
The Trophy form seems really great, but maybe comes online a little too late. It’s similar to the druids wild shape and I don’t feel that it’s overpowered for lower tiers of play since it needs to be something you can actually defeat in the first place, maybe adding restrictions to CR etc like the druid could help.
The Xenovore level 3 class feature could do with an extra thing. If you look at the bard, rogue or blood hunter for example when they get a level 3 feature granting skills, expertise etc. They also get powerful features like cutting words.
I am really eager to test out the cannibal, these are just concerns I have from reading so far. I did have temptations to power up my character with racial feats (getting booming blade for example) but I want to try it out with ‘no bells’ to see if it can work without optimising in other ways.
i think it’s really really great what you are doing and there seems to be a lot of hard work put into this. Super excited to see how it goes!
Love it! Hard to judge at this point how well things work, since we haven't done a lot of die rolling yet. I think the scholar subcalling will look a lot less powerful after a couple of combats, when Eclipse will no doubt be the first to fall. Definitely a more strategic role.
I guess the only disconnect is if its use effects another player character and doesn't fit their own vision -- perhaps if a fact directly effects a PC, they also can veto? That is, the PC can say, "Where did you read that? That's not true about me at all." if it's something they don't want to run with.
Eclipse's facts about dragon waste products, for example. Whether true or not, that was not something I particularly wanted to roleplay around, so I sort of did a soft veto in-character.
You have a point there. I mentioned it can't effect small personal matters, but that doesn't address the issue with an entire species. In those other games, since everyone could do it, there was a mechanic to 'parry' the fact, but that wouldn't work in this case. I'll have to think on that.
I do expect the cannibal to be slightly underpowered since most martial classes have some way of boosting their damage which the cannibal (currently) lacks. I think it might become more apparent around level 5 when most classes get extra attack.
The consuming ability score/feature could prove me completely wrong about power level, but if that’s completely permanent then it could feel like a waste to level up before you’ve faced anything with a desirable trait. It might work better with a slot based system like the trophy form. OR - You hold onto those traits until you use your trophy form then lose the traits - could bring a real constant cycle of hunting stronger prey vibe.
The Trophy form seems really great, but maybe comes online a little too late. It’s similar to the druids wild shape and I don’t feel that it’s overpowered for lower tiers of play since it needs to be something you can actually defeat in the first place, maybe adding restrictions to CR etc like the druid could help.
The Xenovore level 3 class feature could do with an extra thing. If you look at the bard, rogue or blood hunter for example when they get a level 3 feature granting skills, expertise etc. They also get powerful features like cutting words.
I am really eager to test out the cannibal, these are just concerns I have from reading so far. I did have temptations to power up my character with racial feats (getting booming blade for example) but I want to try it out with ‘no bells’ to see if it can work without optimising in other ways.
i think it’s really really great what you are doing and there seems to be a lot of hard work put into this. Super excited to see how it goes!
Damage boosting... That goes on the to do list. I'm not sure what you mean about the form/feature. I was considering making Trophy Form an earlier trait, and I'll look over the Xenovore early features.
Yeah, I don’t know what would fit, wether it be extra attack or something similar to a hunters mark or a sneak attack. I don’t think it”s a problem up till level 5 but at that point spellcasters have improved cantrips and martials have extra attack.
The thought I had there was that you could link the trophy form with the ability score increase. When you take a trophy form (say at 4th level) you have an ability score increase or one of its features. Once you use the trophy form you lose that increase or feature and the ability to use the trophy form. The result would be that you would use up your trophy forms trying to defeat tougher enemies and get better features and better trophy forms. It was just an idea I had as typing. As read right now though it’s a one off taking an ability score increase (or feature) so if I were to level up to lvl 4 and didn’t have a trophy with an increase I wanted would I not level up, or be able to delay it? And would I be able to swap out that increase if I found a better trophy.
I think the answer with the first point really depends as well on what kind of role you see the cannibal as taking in a party, and which other classes you compare it to or see it as an amalgamation of. I’m still unsure and ready to experiment with it and see how it goes. Definitely think lvl 3 Xeno and Level 5 need a little oomph compared to other classes though
Unrelated, the Cleric Wealth domain probably needs its spells adjusted to match other domains. The level in all the other domains is the cleric level, not the spell level, so you get domain spells that are spell levels 1-5 at the cleric level you can cast them.
So perhaps:
Cleric Level / Spells
1. Comprehend Languages, Identify 3. Suggestion, Locate Object 5. Sending, Remove Curse (Incite Greed would be perfect, but requires Acquisitions Inc) 7. Leomond's Secret Chest, Fabricate 9. Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane
In addition, it needs a level 8 Potent Cantrip or Divine Strike ability.
The thought I had there was that you could link the trophy form with the ability score increase. When you take a trophy form (say at 4th level) you have an ability score increase or one of its features. Once you use the trophy form you lose that increase or feature and the ability to use the trophy form. The result would be that you would use up your trophy forms trying to defeat tougher enemies and get better features and better trophy forms. It was just an idea I had as typing. As read right now though it’s a one off taking an ability score increase (or feature) so if I were to level up to lvl 4 and didn’t have a trophy with an increase I wanted would I not level up, or be able to delay it? And would I be able to swap out that increase if I found a better trophy.
I think the answer with the first point really depends as well on what kind of role you see the cannibal as taking in a party, and which other classes you compare it to or see it as an amalgamation of. I’m still unsure and ready to experiment with it and see how it goes. Definitely think lvl 3 Xeno and Level 5 need a little oomph compared to other classes though
I try not to require a class to fit a role, so I'd rather allow the options to take a class in multiple directions. I assumed you could replace the forms. I'll need to make that more explicit.
This was a subcalling that I was considering making available for this game, but it hadn't quite been developed enough at the time. Looking for feedback.
In one of the other playtest groups it was pointed out that the wording for how species feats work was little confusing. Did you guys feel that was the case? Was it a factor in why no one played a character with a species feat?
It took me a bit to parse what the species feat was versus just going full custom.
My backup character I had planned if Laitraxa either wasn't accepted or dies is a Drunken Master Monk Omolo, who has been accidentally stashed away in an ale cask in the cargo hold and is too much a wiggly jello blob to hit, but that's for another time, lol. Laitraxa is a story and writing challenge I wanted to try first, so the feat thing was not the deciding factor.
Perhaps to make it clear, you could have the "Species" section before the "Feats" section. So you can have the specifics of each special race, and an additional species which is "Custom Species (pick any five feats)." If you're planning on publishing, you could even have a "Typical Human" or "Typical Elf" and prefill some feats for people to have a starting point if they don't know where to begin.
You could even have the size distinguishers there too, considering the discussions we had with the pixie and giant characters. For example, "Large Species" which includes the awkward body, giant, and pick four other feats. Also might want to consider some balancing effects - for example if you allow large weapons (double dice) perhaps have an -2 AC penalty (big target)
Maybe add a counterpoint "Tiny" feat and species, and apply some benefits for the small size (+2 to ac and dex saves) but have some caveats on weapons they can use (either decrease weapon dice by one step, or limit what they wield, or some combination), carrying capacity, etc.
"Perhaps to make it clear, you could have the "Species" section before the "Feats" section." That's a good, easy-to-implement idea.
"If you're planning on publishing, you could even have a "Typical Human" or "Typical Elf" and prefill some feats for people to have a starting point if they don't know where to begin." That is actually part of the original idea. Hopefully I'll get to some of that today.
I'm going to have to think about the size issue. I generally don't want size to change much mechanically, as I'd want the choice to be more about characterization than mechanical optimization. It's similar to how Small size already works, as a more realistic variation would probably be less fun.
I made the changes suggested on the Wealth Domain, though instead of a Cantrip/Strike ability I added a healing boost based on debt. I also finally came up with an amusingly twisted 17th level ability.
I've had a few people ask why the Scholar archetype isn't an archetype for X class, and, in general, I haven't had a good reason why. I'm considering breaking it down into a set of feats. Thoughts?
Scholar could be fitting for many classes, true. I thought Ranger was an odder choice over Bard or Wizard.
Alternatively, it could be its own class. Star Wars 5e has a scholar class, though that is a very different take mechanically opposed to the Critical Information ability, the thematic sense is still there, and works out to be like an intellect-based support class.
Eclipse seems to be having fun making up so many facts, so I think that is a good ability and could easily be a feat (perhaps tied to proficiency bonus uses per short rest). Armed with knowledge can be either a rider (so combine with Crit Info) or its own feat... I would probably write them both into one feat, so PB times/rest you can suggest a fact, and 1/2 PB times (round up)/rest you can use that fact to add or subtract the scholar's PB from a skill check you or another creature makes due to that fact.
Improved Armed with Knowledge, I would change to its own feat, and require the Critical Information as a pre-requisite. (and probably just turn it into Armed with Knowledge if the original Armed with Knowledge gets rolled up into Critical Info)
The later level Requisitions features seem like it is something that should really be done with roleplaying and backstory integration, utilizing destiny/agenda for characters, as opposed to a class feature.
The later effects were added really just so that the archetype had a full range of effects. That's why I went with a feat as my first thought. I'll mull-over the idea of a class though.
BTW, since this is a playtest game, please take the time to give feed back on the race system, the new (sub)callings, and even the setting material.
So far, off to a good start. Will be curious if any of the facets of build-a-race are overpowered or underpowered yet, but we'll see. Seems like you can break the world with Scholar, lol.
Aldrik Reinholdt in Dragon Heist
Daventry in The Candlekeep Mysteries, and her bag
People keep saying that about Scholar, but I think I just need to explain it better. The fact that the DM can veto any suggestion that's problematic is the major limiting factor. Several other game systems (Exalted, Fate, etc) make the effect of Critical Information a standard rule available to anyone. It makes knowledge-based characters operate more like they do in narrative fiction.
True, the balancing factor being the more outlandish, the higher the DC (up to and including "impossible"/veto'ed). I guess the only disconnect is if its use effects another player character and doesn't fit their own vision -- perhaps if a fact directly effects a PC, they also can veto? That is, the PC can say, "Where did you read that? That's not true about me at all." if it's something they don't want to run with.
Eclipse's facts about dragon waste products, for example. Whether true or not, that was not something I particularly wanted to roleplay around, so I sort of did a soft veto in-character.
Aldrik Reinholdt in Dragon Heist
Daventry in The Candlekeep Mysteries, and her bag
I get that, and I feel like it’s something that we kind of do anyway (to a smaller extent) when fleshing out backstory or making smalltalk in character. It’s definitely something very interesting.
I really wanted to try the cannibal and I’m looking forward to seeing how it plays out. I do expect the cannibal to be slightly underpowered since most martial classes have some way of boosting their damage which the cannibal (currently) lacks. I think it might become more apparent around level 5 when most classes get extra attack.
The consuming ability score/feature could prove me completely wrong about power level, but if that’s completely permanent then it could feel like a waste to level up before you’ve faced anything with a desirable trait. It might work better with a slot based system like the trophy form. OR - You hold onto those traits until you use your trophy form then lose the traits - could bring a real constant cycle of hunting stronger prey vibe.
The Trophy form seems really great, but maybe comes online a little too late. It’s similar to the druids wild shape and I don’t feel that it’s overpowered for lower tiers of play since it needs to be something you can actually defeat in the first place, maybe adding restrictions to CR etc like the druid could help.
The Xenovore level 3 class feature could do with an extra thing. If you look at the bard, rogue or blood hunter for example when they get a level 3 feature granting skills, expertise etc. They also get powerful features like cutting words.
I am really eager to test out the cannibal, these are just concerns I have from reading so far. I did have temptations to power up my character with racial feats (getting booming blade for example) but I want to try it out with ‘no bells’ to see if it can work without optimising in other ways.
i think it’s really really great what you are doing and there seems to be a lot of hard work put into this. Super excited to see how it goes!
Gilgin Hardhammer - Mountain Dwarf Cleric (Forge Domain) - Icewind Dale
Petal - Forest Gnome Druid (Circle of the Land - Forest) - Unsung Heroes of Embera
Love it! Hard to judge at this point how well things work, since we haven't done a lot of die rolling yet. I think the scholar subcalling will look a lot less powerful after a couple of combats, when Eclipse will no doubt be the first to fall. Definitely a more strategic role.
DM for Candlekeep Mysteries // Dev Hornd in Curious Critters // Eclipse Faraway in Gallows Dancer
You have a point there. I mentioned it can't effect small personal matters, but that doesn't address the issue with an entire species. In those other games, since everyone could do it, there was a mechanic to 'parry' the fact, but that wouldn't work in this case. I'll have to think on that.
Damage boosting... That goes on the to do list.
I'm not sure what you mean about the form/feature.
I was considering making Trophy Form an earlier trait, and I'll look over the Xenovore early features.
Yeah, I don’t know what would fit, wether it be extra attack or something similar to a hunters mark or a sneak attack. I don’t think it”s a problem up till level 5 but at that point spellcasters have improved cantrips and martials have extra attack.
The thought I had there was that you could link the trophy form with the ability score increase. When you take a trophy form (say at 4th level) you have an ability score increase or one of its features. Once you use the trophy form you lose that increase or feature and the ability to use the trophy form. The result would be that you would use up your trophy forms trying to defeat tougher enemies and get better features and better trophy forms. It was just an idea I had as typing. As read right now though it’s a one off taking an ability score increase (or feature) so if I were to level up to lvl 4 and didn’t have a trophy with an increase I wanted would I not level up, or be able to delay it? And would I be able to swap out that increase if I found a better trophy.
I think the answer with the first point really depends as well on what kind of role you see the cannibal as taking in a party, and which other classes you compare it to or see it as an amalgamation of. I’m still unsure and ready to experiment with it and see how it goes. Definitely think lvl 3 Xeno and Level 5 need a little oomph compared to other classes though
Gilgin Hardhammer - Mountain Dwarf Cleric (Forge Domain) - Icewind Dale
Petal - Forest Gnome Druid (Circle of the Land - Forest) - Unsung Heroes of Embera
Unrelated, the Cleric Wealth domain probably needs its spells adjusted to match other domains. The level in all the other domains is the cleric level, not the spell level, so you get domain spells that are spell levels 1-5 at the cleric level you can cast them.
So perhaps:
Cleric Level / Spells
1. Comprehend Languages, Identify
3. Suggestion, Locate Object
5. Sending, Remove Curse (Incite Greed would be perfect, but requires Acquisitions Inc)
7. Leomond's Secret Chest, Fabricate
9. Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane
In addition, it needs a level 8 Potent Cantrip or Divine Strike ability.
Aldrik Reinholdt in Dragon Heist
Daventry in The Candlekeep Mysteries, and her bag
I try not to require a class to fit a role, so I'd rather allow the options to take a class in multiple directions. I assumed you could replace the forms. I'll need to make that more explicit.
This was a subcalling that I was considering making available for this game, but it hadn't quite been developed enough at the time. Looking for feedback.
In one of the other playtest groups it was pointed out that the wording for how species feats work was little confusing. Did you guys feel that was the case? Was it a factor in why no one played a character with a species feat?
It took me a bit to parse what the species feat was versus just going full custom.
My backup character I had planned if Laitraxa either wasn't accepted or dies is a Drunken Master Monk Omolo, who has been accidentally stashed away in an ale cask in the cargo hold and is too much a wiggly jello blob to hit, but that's for another time, lol. Laitraxa is a story and writing challenge I wanted to try first, so the feat thing was not the deciding factor.
Perhaps to make it clear, you could have the "Species" section before the "Feats" section. So you can have the specifics of each special race, and an additional species which is "Custom Species (pick any five feats)." If you're planning on publishing, you could even have a "Typical Human" or "Typical Elf" and prefill some feats for people to have a starting point if they don't know where to begin.
You could even have the size distinguishers there too, considering the discussions we had with the pixie and giant characters. For example, "Large Species" which includes the awkward body, giant, and pick four other feats. Also might want to consider some balancing effects - for example if you allow large weapons (double dice) perhaps have an -2 AC penalty (big target)
Maybe add a counterpoint "Tiny" feat and species, and apply some benefits for the small size (+2 to ac and dex saves) but have some caveats on weapons they can use (either decrease weapon dice by one step, or limit what they wield, or some combination), carrying capacity, etc.
Maybe some inspiration on that can be found in 3.5e: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Table_of_Creature_Size_and_Scale and the 4e pixie: https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Pixie
Aldrik Reinholdt in Dragon Heist
Daventry in The Candlekeep Mysteries, and her bag
"Perhaps to make it clear, you could have the "Species" section before the "Feats" section."
That's a good, easy-to-implement idea.
"If you're planning on publishing, you could even have a "Typical Human" or "Typical Elf" and prefill some feats for people to have a starting point if they don't know where to begin."
That is actually part of the original idea. Hopefully I'll get to some of that today.
I'm going to have to think about the size issue. I generally don't want size to change much mechanically, as I'd want the choice to be more about characterization than mechanical optimization. It's similar to how Small size already works, as a more realistic variation would probably be less fun.
I made the changes suggested on the Wealth Domain, though instead of a Cantrip/Strike ability I added a healing boost based on debt. I also finally came up with an amusingly twisted 17th level ability.
I've had a few people ask why the Scholar archetype isn't an archetype for X class, and, in general, I haven't had a good reason why. I'm considering breaking it down into a set of feats. Thoughts?
Scholar could be fitting for many classes, true. I thought Ranger was an odder choice over Bard or Wizard.
Alternatively, it could be its own class. Star Wars 5e has a scholar class, though that is a very different take mechanically opposed to the Critical Information ability, the thematic sense is still there, and works out to be like an intellect-based support class.
Eclipse seems to be having fun making up so many facts, so I think that is a good ability and could easily be a feat (perhaps tied to proficiency bonus uses per short rest). Armed with knowledge can be either a rider (so combine with Crit Info) or its own feat... I would probably write them both into one feat, so PB times/rest you can suggest a fact, and 1/2 PB times (round up)/rest you can use that fact to add or subtract the scholar's PB from a skill check you or another creature makes due to that fact.
Improved Armed with Knowledge, I would change to its own feat, and require the Critical Information as a pre-requisite. (and probably just turn it into Armed with Knowledge if the original Armed with Knowledge gets rolled up into Critical Info)
The later level Requisitions features seem like it is something that should really be done with roleplaying and backstory integration, utilizing destiny/agenda for characters, as opposed to a class feature.
Aldrik Reinholdt in Dragon Heist
Daventry in The Candlekeep Mysteries, and her bag
The later effects were added really just so that the archetype had a full range of effects. That's why I went with a feat as my first thought. I'll mull-over the idea of a class though.