If a character has invested so much into picking locks... just let them pick all the frickin locks!
I think the issue is that its not just this character that has invested something - it is every single artificer. Rogues have to choose where to put their Expertise, so not all of them will have it in thief's tools. Every artificer is rolling d20 + DEX + 2×Proficiency (and at 7th level, d20 + DEX + INT + 2×Proficiency). They don 't even have to carry the thief's tools around with them, risking the attention of law enforcement - they can just create them from thin air over the course of a rest.
I feel that the artificer Tool Expertise feature should only apply to artisan's tools.
Alternatively, since those gloves are uncommon, lock makers have to expect that every serious thief will already have them, so they just make every lock more difficult.
On the other hand, scatterbraind is corect. GMs are supposed to be champions of the characters (to steal an agenda from Dungeon World).
Literarily though this is only a "problem" if you want it to BE a problem - as scatterbrained is pointing out. There are so many ways to challenge a PC that if locks are your "BBEG" you should be thinking of the fact that most STR based classes will just Hulk Smash the door or chest.
Lots of exaggerating of how powerful the features of an artificer are not to mention seemingly complaining about them using their abilities. However we are getting of topic.
No you are not misusing your abilities. the +18 is fine.
So, you have a rogue in the party and an artificer. How, exactly, as a DM, do you make the rogue competitive with the Artificer? Or do you simply tell them 'Tough, this is not really a rogue thing!?'
The DM can balance PvE but trying to balance PC expertise overlap is not so easy.
Why is it so crucial that this hypothetical rogue in this hypothetical party be the one to be the best at lockpicking? Rogues can be about plenty of things. They don't always have to be the best at thieves' tools.
I mean if this is so crucial you better hope the hypothetical wizard hasn't learned and prepared knock and the hypothetical cleric hasn't also prepared silence for this hypothetical locked door this hypothetical day.
If the PC's rogue has made being the best at lock picking absolutely central to their character keep in mind that Guidance, Gloves of Thievery, and even the 7th level feature Flash of Genius can all be applied to the rogue as well, and the rogue in that scenario (let's say they're level 11 since the scenario is already hypothetical) would be able to apply reliable talent on top of that.
A rogue selecting Thieves' Tools as their expertise is the rogue investing in the rogue picking locks. An artificer selecting Gloves of Thievery as an infusion is the artificer investing in someone in the party (potentially the artificer but not necessarily) picking locks.
The rogue and artificer don't HAVE to be in competition just because they have overlapping class features. They could just as easily be cooperating, or taking turns depending on other factors and skill differences. Further even if they choose to be in competition if the competition is friendly and the players are having fun, that's a plus not a minus.
If two players have overlapping expertise and it becomes a point of friction between them then that's a player cooperation issue not a mechanical one.
Here's a question for all those who say this is fine, particularly those saying 'just adjust the DC's':
Say you have a group with no artificer and no such gloves. New player artificer joins. Does someone apprentice Mage suddenly start wandering around arcane locking everything or some higher level artificer suddenly go around replacing all the existing locks with tougher versions, because reasons?
This Artificer example shows how broken this aspect of the class is. Yes, the DM HAS to increase the DC now on all locks and traps to ridiculous levels, because of the described situation. Otherwise the DM says "yeah, you go through every unguarded lock and trap like it is not there.. The End. Congrats, you have just shortened the adventure by 30 minutes, and I have nothing else planned. See you next week." Or the DM says "because of a rash of thefts, all people with valuables have no employed guards at each lock, and Mages are getting a lot of work casting Glyphs of Warding".
The game is about challenges for the group, If there is no challenge, there is no fun, unless the group is made up of 8 year olds.
Here's a question for all those who say this is fine, particularly those saying 'just adjust the DC's':
Say you have a group with no artificer and no such gloves. New player artificer joins. Does someone apprentice Mage suddenly start wandering around arcane locking everything or some higher level artificer suddenly go around replacing all the existing locks with tougher versions, because reasons?
This Artificer example shows how broken this aspect of the class is. Yes, the DM HAS to increase the DC now on all locks and traps to ridiculous levels, because of the described situation. Otherwise the DM says "yeah, you go through every unguarded lock and trap like it is not there.. The End. Congrats, you have just shortened the adventure by 30 minutes, and I have nothing else planned. See you next week." Or the DM says "because of a rash of thefts, all people with valuables have no employed guards at each lock, and Mages are getting a lot of work casting Glyphs of Warding".
The game is about challenges for the group, If there is no challenge, there is no fun, unless the group is made up of 8 year olds.
If the only challenge that you are throwing at a group of players is locks..... maybe find areas they are weaker in.
I mean sure the BBEG has harder locks but not Joe the peddler down the street. Your world should be realistic and again you are “punishing” a player for investing in things by artificially changing the DCs of standard things.
there’s thousands of other ways to challenge a table than “Sorry that lock is not opening”. I mean without the insane lock picking skill are you going to tell me your adventures rely solely on lock picking to get to the next party of the game?
Here's a question for all those who say this is fine, particularly those saying 'just adjust the DC's':
Say you have a group with no artificer and no such gloves. New player artificer joins. Does someone apprentice Mage suddenly start wandering around arcane locking everything or some higher level artificer suddenly go around replacing all the existing locks with tougher versions, because reasons?
This Artificer example shows how broken this aspect of the class is. Yes, the DM HAS to increase the DC now on all locks and traps to ridiculous levels, because of the described situation. Otherwise the DM says "yeah, you go through every unguarded lock and trap like it is not there.. The End. Congrats, you have just shortened the adventure by 30 minutes, and I have nothing else planned. See you next week." Or the DM says "because of a rash of thefts, all people with valuables have no employed guards at each lock, and Mages are getting a lot of work casting Glyphs of Warding".
The game is about challenges for the group, If there is no challenge, there is no fun, unless the group is made up of 8 year olds.
If the only challenge that you are throwing at a group of players is locks..... maybe find areas they are weaker in.
I mean sure the BBEG has harder locks but not Joe the peddler down the street. Your world should be realistic and again you are “punishing” a player for investing in things by artificially changing the DCs of standard things.
there’s thousands of other ways to challenge a table than “Sorry that lock is not opening”. I mean without the insane lock picking skill are you going to tell me your adventures rely solely on lock picking to get to the next party of the game?
No char at 6th level should have a +18, or a +12, in ANYTHING. Such ridiculous modifiers only make the game that much harder for the DM to keep not only fair but challenging at the same time. A 6th level Rogue should have an 18 or 19 in Dex, with Expertise in 4 skills, likely including Stealth, Perception, and anything else from a pool of 3 or 4 standards. Their Stealth rolls should be +10. To suggest a +18 for an Artificer is normal is just wrong.
Here's a question for all those who say this is fine, particularly those saying 'just adjust the DC's':
Say you have a group with no artificer and no such gloves. New player artificer joins. Does someone apprentice Mage suddenly start wandering around arcane locking everything or some higher level artificer suddenly go around replacing all the existing locks with tougher versions, because reasons?
This Artificer example shows how broken this aspect of the class is. Yes, the DM HAS to increase the DC now on all locks and traps to ridiculous levels, because of the described situation. Otherwise the DM says "yeah, you go through every unguarded lock and trap like it is not there.. The End. Congrats, you have just shortened the adventure by 30 minutes, and I have nothing else planned. See you next week." Or the DM says "because of a rash of thefts, all people with valuables have no employed guards at each lock, and Mages are getting a lot of work casting Glyphs of Warding".
The game is about challenges for the group, If there is no challenge, there is no fun, unless the group is made up of 8 year olds.
If the only challenge that you are throwing at a group of players is locks..... maybe find areas they are weaker in.
I mean sure the BBEG has harder locks but not Joe the peddler down the street. Your world should be realistic and again you are “punishing” a player for investing in things by artificially changing the DCs of standard things.
there’s thousands of other ways to challenge a table than “Sorry that lock is not opening”. I mean without the insane lock picking skill are you going to tell me your adventures rely solely on lock picking to get to the next party of the game?
No char at 6th level should have a +18, or a +12, in ANYTHING. Such ridiculous modifiers only make the game that much harder for the DM to keep not only fair but challenging at the same time. A 6th level Rogue should have an 18 or 19 in Dex, with Expertise in 4 skills, likely including Stealth, Perception, and anything else from a pool of 3 or 4 standards. Their Stealth rolls should be +10. To suggest a +18 for an Artificer is normal is just wrong.
I mean this is a ridiculous idea. I guess monks shouldn’t have close to a 20AC at first level either?
or how bout clerics with shields have 18AC. I mean the idea that becuase the characters are low level and have 1/2 insane stats is silly.
do you prevent the casting of Pass without trace on the rogue with expertise in stealth? I mean at level 3 that’s an +18 if the have dex of 18 which wouldn’t be out of the question for them.
again if locks are the “challenge” the. I hope all doors are also made of titanium since any STR base character will just rip the door of the hinges if the rogue can pick it.
Here's a question for all those who say this is fine, particularly those saying 'just adjust the DC's':
Say you have a group with no artificer and no such gloves. New player artificer joins. Does someone apprentice Mage suddenly start wandering around arcane locking everything or some higher level artificer suddenly go around replacing all the existing locks with tougher versions, because reasons?
This Artificer example shows how broken this aspect of the class is. Yes, the DM HAS to increase the DC now on all locks and traps to ridiculous levels, because of the described situation. Otherwise the DM says "yeah, you go through every unguarded lock and trap like it is not there.. The End. Congrats, you have just shortened the adventure by 30 minutes, and I have nothing else planned. See you next week." Or the DM says "because of a rash of thefts, all people with valuables have no employed guards at each lock, and Mages are getting a lot of work casting Glyphs of Warding".
The game is about challenges for the group, If there is no challenge, there is no fun, unless the group is made up of 8 year olds.
If the only challenge that you are throwing at a group of players is locks..... maybe find areas they are weaker in.
I mean sure the BBEG has harder locks but not Joe the peddler down the street. Your world should be realistic and again you are “punishing” a player for investing in things by artificially changing the DCs of standard things.
there’s thousands of other ways to challenge a table than “Sorry that lock is not opening”. I mean without the insane lock picking skill are you going to tell me your adventures rely solely on lock picking to get to the next party of the game?
No char at 6th level should have a +18, or a +12, in ANYTHING. Such ridiculous modifiers only make the game that much harder for the DM to keep not only fair but challenging at the same time. A 6th level Rogue should have an 18 or 19 in Dex, with Expertise in 4 skills, likely including Stealth, Perception, and anything else from a pool of 3 or 4 standards. Their Stealth rolls should be +10. To suggest a +18 for an Artificer is normal is just wrong.
I mean this is a ridiculous idea. I guess monks shouldn’t have close to a 20AC at first level either?
or how bout clerics with shields have 18AC. I mean the idea that becuase the characters are low level and have 1/2 insane stats is silly.
do you prevent the casting of Pass without trace on the rogue with expertise in stealth? I mean at level 3 that’s an +18 if the have dex of 18 which wouldn’t be out of the question for them.
again if locks are the “challenge” the. I hope all doors are also made of titanium since any STR base character will just rip the door of the hinges if the rogue can pick it.
First off, no Monk has an AC remotely close to 20. Best case scenario is 16, using Unarmored Defense rules, and actually playing the game properly. A 1st level Str based char wearing Chain Mail and a shield having an AC of 18 has been around forever, and is fine, because that is bounded pretty fast.
And yeah, having a group run around with a +17 or +18 with Pass Without Trace does indeed bother me, but at least a 3rd level Druid has to burn one of their three 2nd level spell slots, and it is a Concentration spell. So not really apples to apples, is it?
Don't arbitrarily raise DCs just because someone has a lot of bonuses for that check. That is like giving every monster counterspell because there is a wizard in the party. Guess all enemies also need plate armor to counter the fighter.
If they are good at something, then they are good at it and should succeed at it often. That's how you know the system is working. If they have a +15~18 and only succeed half the time, then those checks are extraordinarily high (the kind level 17+ parties would find) and must be giving equally extraordinary rewards (very rare magic items, thousands of GP, etc) for success.
First off, no Monk has an AC remotely close to 20. Best case scenario is 16, using Unarmored Defense rules, and actually playing the game properly. A 1st level Str based char wearing Chain Mail and a shield having an AC of 18 has been around forever, and is fine, because that is bounded pretty fast.
And yeah, having a group run around with a +17 or +18 with Pass Without Trace does indeed bother me, but at least a 3rd level Druid has to burn one of their three 2nd level spell slots, and it is a Concentration spell. So not really apples to apples, is it?
And the 6th level artificer in this scenario would be using their one of their 6 infusions known to even have access to this infusion, 1 of their 3 active infusions to get an effect that is mechanically similar to casting enhance ability (cat's grace) on a single character (though easily transferrable to another) but much more specific in the exactly two kinds of DEX based ability checks in which it applies.
Not that my example is an apples to apples comparison either but seeing as unlike druids Artificers are half casters, even a single infusion is a significant investment. Infusions are part of what makes up for having half as many spell slots, and half as many preparable spells per long rest. And this is a very specific scenario for 1/3 of your active infusions to apply. (Which is why I don't think I'd personally bother with taking it as an infusion)
I don't see the need to disallow that infusion or bump if from a 6th level to a 10th level requirement but if anyone does that's cool. DM's prerogative.
Why is it so crucial that this hypothetical rogue in this hypothetical party be the one to be the best at lockpicking?
Rogues can be about plenty of things. They don't always have to be the best at thieves' tools.
I mean if this is so crucial you better hope the hypothetical wizard hasn't learned and prepared knock and the hypothetical cleric hasn't also prepared silence for this hypothetical locked door this hypothetical day.
If the PC's rogue has made being the best at lock picking absolutely central to their character keep in mind that Guidance, Gloves of Thievery, and even the 7th level feature Flash of Genius can all be applied to the rogue as well, and the rogue in that scenario (let's say they're level 11 since the scenario is already hypothetical) would be able to apply reliable talent on top of that.
A rogue selecting Thieves' Tools as their expertise is the rogue investing in the rogue picking locks.
An artificer selecting Gloves of Thievery as an infusion is the artificer investing in someone in the party (potentially the artificer but not necessarily) picking locks.
The rogue and artificer don't HAVE to be in competition just because they have overlapping class features. They could just as easily be cooperating, or taking turns depending on other factors and skill differences. Further even if they choose to be in competition if the competition is friendly and the players are having fun, that's a plus not a minus.
If two players have overlapping expertise and it becomes a point of friction between them then that's a player cooperation issue not a mechanical one.
"H-hold on... gotta... ah-AH-*CLICK*"
This Artificer example shows how broken this aspect of the class is. Yes, the DM HAS to increase the DC now on all locks and traps to ridiculous levels, because of the described situation. Otherwise the DM says "yeah, you go through every unguarded lock and trap like it is not there.. The End. Congrats, you have just shortened the adventure by 30 minutes, and I have nothing else planned. See you next week." Or the DM says "because of a rash of thefts, all people with valuables have no employed guards at each lock, and Mages are getting a lot of work casting Glyphs of Warding".
The game is about challenges for the group, If there is no challenge, there is no fun, unless the group is made up of 8 year olds.
If the only challenge that you are throwing at a group of players is locks..... maybe find areas they are weaker in.
I mean sure the BBEG has harder locks but not Joe the peddler down the street. Your world should be realistic and again you are “punishing” a player for investing in things by artificially changing the DCs of standard things.
there’s thousands of other ways to challenge a table than “Sorry that lock is not opening”. I mean without the insane lock picking skill are you going to tell me your adventures rely solely on lock picking to get to the next party of the game?
No char at 6th level should have a +18, or a +12, in ANYTHING. Such ridiculous modifiers only make the game that much harder for the DM to keep not only fair but challenging at the same time. A 6th level Rogue should have an 18 or 19 in Dex, with Expertise in 4 skills, likely including Stealth, Perception, and anything else from a pool of 3 or 4 standards. Their Stealth rolls should be +10. To suggest a +18 for an Artificer is normal is just wrong.
I mean this is a ridiculous idea. I guess monks shouldn’t have close to a 20AC at first level either?
or how bout clerics with shields have 18AC. I mean the idea that becuase the characters are low level and have 1/2 insane stats is silly.
do you prevent the casting of Pass without trace on the rogue with expertise in stealth? I mean at level 3 that’s an +18 if the have dex of 18 which wouldn’t be out of the question for them.
again if locks are the “challenge” the. I hope all doors are also made of titanium since any STR base character will just rip the door of the hinges if the rogue can pick it.
First off, no Monk has an AC remotely close to 20. Best case scenario is 16, using Unarmored Defense rules, and actually playing the game properly. A 1st level Str based char wearing Chain Mail and a shield having an AC of 18 has been around forever, and is fine, because that is bounded pretty fast.
And yeah, having a group run around with a +17 or +18 with Pass Without Trace does indeed bother me, but at least a 3rd level Druid has to burn one of their three 2nd level spell slots, and it is a Concentration spell. So not really apples to apples, is it?
Don't arbitrarily raise DCs just because someone has a lot of bonuses for that check. That is like giving every monster counterspell because there is a wizard in the party. Guess all enemies also need plate armor to counter the fighter.
If they are good at something, then they are good at it and should succeed at it often. That's how you know the system is working. If they have a +15~18 and only succeed half the time, then those checks are extraordinarily high (the kind level 17+ parties would find) and must be giving equally extraordinary rewards (very rare magic items, thousands of GP, etc) for success.
And the 6th level artificer in this scenario would be using their one of their 6 infusions known to even have access to this infusion, 1 of their 3 active infusions to get an effect that is mechanically similar to casting enhance ability (cat's grace) on a single character (though easily transferrable to another) but much more specific in the exactly two kinds of DEX based ability checks in which it applies.
Not that my example is an apples to apples comparison either but seeing as unlike druids Artificers are half casters, even a single infusion is a significant investment. Infusions are part of what makes up for having half as many spell slots, and half as many preparable spells per long rest. And this is a very specific scenario for 1/3 of your active infusions to apply. (Which is why I don't think I'd personally bother with taking it as an infusion)
I don't see the need to disallow that infusion or bump if from a 6th level to a 10th level requirement but if anyone does that's cool. DM's prerogative.