So, what happens when a Dragon in it's lair is trapped in a spherical Wall of Force. Obviously it's trapped in the Force Sphere, and cannot attack or breathe through per RAW.
The question is, can the Dragon still produce it's Lair Actions and does it's Frightful Presence extend beyond the Force Sphere?
Looking at old rulings by Mike Mearls, he stated that Wall of Force would block spells via, "a barrier that stops physical objects stops spells." And more recently, Jeremy Crawford referenced the PHB, p 204 ("Unless a spell says otherwise, you can't target someone behind total cover.") regarding Wall of Force by saying "Cover is a physical obstruction, not necessarily a visual one."
I'm personally of the opinion that the Frightful Presence, since it's effectively an aura requiring an enemy see the dragon to be affected, and the Wall of Force being clear, mean that it would function normally. But, I think the Lair Actions, because they require targeting points for effects to happen such as Magma spouts, or Walls of Thickets to form, would not work beyond the Sphere of Force.
If anyone can inform me differently, please do so. I'm honestly curious to see arguments made either way...
But, there are no rules to be found in any rule book (PHB, DMG, or MM) about line of effect for non-spells. The RAI is that effect targeting and placement follows the same rules provided for spells in the PHB. So, we're dragged right back into the same 11 page thread, no matter how much a DM might want to carve out an exception for their own beasties that they aren't willing to extend to players.
So, what happens when a Dragon in it's lair is trapped in a spherical Wall of Force. Obviously it's trapped in the Force Sphere, and cannot attack or breathe through per RAW.
The question is, can the Dragon still produce it's Lair Actions and does it's Frightful Presence extend beyond the Force Sphere?
Looking at old rulings by Mike Mearls, he stated that Wall of Force would block spells via, "a barrier that stops physical objects stops spells." And more recently, Jeremy Crawford referenced the PHB, p 204 ("Unless a spell says otherwise, you can't target someone behind total cover.") regarding Wall of Force by saying "Cover is a physical obstruction, not necessarily a visual one."
I'm personally of the opinion that the Frightful Presence, since it's effectively an aura requiring an enemy see the dragon to be affected, and the Wall of Force being clear, mean that it would function normally. But, I think the Lair Actions, because they require targeting points for effects to happen such as Magma spouts, or Walls of Thickets to form, would not work beyond the Sphere of Force.
If anyone can inform me differently, please do so. I'm honestly curious to see arguments made either way...
A smart DM would simply handwave away that the Adult or Ancient Dragon (clearly not a Young one, if the players have Wall of Force available), got clear of the effect, and not trapped. No way, no how, does a good DM let the players, no matter how clever, end a BBEG encounter so easily. So yes, the full menu of options is available for that Dragon. Of course, the Dragon may decide to grin, and simply wait it out inside the Wall of Force. If the Dragon can't get at the players, the player's can't get at it. And yes, ALL my dragons have spell casting abilities for events like this.
So, what happens when a Dragon in it's lair is trapped in a spherical Wall of Force. Obviously it's trapped in the Force Sphere, and cannot attack or breathe through per RAW.
The question is, can the Dragon still produce it's Lair Actions and does it's Frightful Presence extend beyond the Force Sphere?
Looking at old rulings by Mike Mearls, he stated that Wall of Force would block spells via, "a barrier that stops physical objects stops spells." And more recently, Jeremy Crawford referenced the PHB, p 204 ("Unless a spell says otherwise, you can't target someone behind total cover.") regarding Wall of Force by saying "Cover is a physical obstruction, not necessarily a visual one."
I'm personally of the opinion that the Frightful Presence, since it's effectively an aura requiring an enemy see the dragon to be affected, and the Wall of Force being clear, mean that it would function normally. But, I think the Lair Actions, because they require targeting points for effects to happen such as Magma spouts, or Walls of Thickets to form, would not work beyond the Sphere of Force.
If anyone can inform me differently, please do so. I'm honestly curious to see arguments made either way...
A smart DM would simply handwave away that the Adult or Ancient Dragon (clearly not a Young one, if the players have Wall of Force available), got clear of the effect, and not trapped. No way, no how, does a good DM let the players, no matter how clever, end a BBEG encounter so easily. So yes, the full menu of options is available for that Dragon. Of course, the Dragon may decide to grin, and simply wait it out inside the Wall of Force. If the Dragon can't get at the players, the player's can't get at it. And yes, ALL my dragons have spell casting abilities for events like this.
I find “Hand waving” is a sign of an unprepared DM. There are tons of opportunities to play within the rules and make every encounter interesting. And there’s nothing wrong with clever PCs doing something unique and getting away with it either.
I agree with the addition of spells for dragons, minions that are trained to test the concentration of wizards, lair effects that focus fire, etc. They’re smarter than the smartest wizard after all.
But hand waving? Nah. That’s just a one way ticket to “don’t bother doing anything creative, DM wants us to fight this baddie so we just gotta fight it like normal…”
I rule that the frightful presence works through the wall of force.
You might intellectually know that the wall of force means you are safe from the dragon, but deep down, at an instinctual level, your brain doesn't know that. All it knows is a primal fear of dragons.
Also, as noted above, wall of force is a spell that generates a lot of argument. A lot… As a GM, you should decide your interpretation early and let everyone know.
In my opinion trapping a dragon in a wall of force also protects it against you. That spell is best used to divide a large group of opponents into two groups, or separate a BBEG’s minions from the BBEG so they can be taken care of separately. Against a dragon it just gives the dragon a chance to catch its breath.
Technically you don’t even need to see a dragon to be affected by it’s frightful presence...simple awareness of it is enough per the text. I say it works through the wall.
So, what happens when a Dragon in it's lair is trapped in a spherical Wall of Force. Obviously it's trapped in the Force Sphere, and cannot attack or breathe through per RAW.
The question is, can the Dragon still produce it's Lair Actions and does it's Frightful Presence extend beyond the Force Sphere?
Looking at old rulings by Mike Mearls, he stated that Wall of Force would block spells via, "a barrier that stops physical objects stops spells." And more recently, Jeremy Crawford referenced the PHB, p 204 ("Unless a spell says otherwise, you can't target someone behind total cover.") regarding Wall of Force by saying "Cover is a physical obstruction, not necessarily a visual one."
I'm personally of the opinion that the Frightful Presence, since it's effectively an aura requiring an enemy see the dragon to be affected, and the Wall of Force being clear, mean that it would function normally. But, I think the Lair Actions, because they require targeting points for effects to happen such as Magma spouts, or Walls of Thickets to form, would not work beyond the Sphere of Force.
If anyone can inform me differently, please do so. I'm honestly curious to see arguments made either way...
A smart DM would simply handwave away that the Adult or Ancient Dragon (clearly not a Young one, if the players have Wall of Force available), got clear of the effect, and not trapped. No way, no how, does a good DM let the players, no matter how clever, end a BBEG encounter so easily. So yes, the full menu of options is available for that Dragon. Of course, the Dragon may decide to grin, and simply wait it out inside the Wall of Force. If the Dragon can't get at the players, the player's can't get at it. And yes, ALL my dragons have spell casting abilities for events like this.
I'm really not a fan of hand-waving and rule-0 invocations. I firmly believe that if everyone playing is an adult, there shouldn't be a "because I said so" moment except where there needs to be a settling of a dispute.
There's just no way the dragon gets clear of the effect. It's specifically in the spell's rules that the caster gets to decide what's in and out if it touches the wall. And I also like to give my dragons some spellcasting, or innate spell-like abilities that reflect their typing. Players anticipating this actually worked together to hold actions to get off, in order, the following: - Silence [Lore Bard] - Insect Plague (Triggered by Silence) [Tempest Cleric] - Wall of Force, Sphere Version (Triggered by Silence) [Diviner Wizard]
Because they all went off one after the other, and no "end of turn" happened, the Dragon couldn't use legendary actions to move out of the areas of effect. I wasn't about to hand-wave that ingenuity away. I even had the presence to have the Dragon attempt to Counter Spell the Wall of Force, but the Bard countered the Counter Spell. All legit. It couldn't use it's misty step to get out because innate spells still require the vocal components to work.
As I said, while I'm a fan of giving dragons some innate spellcasting, I don't like giving them actual caster levels. That's too meta for me. Certainly, any Dragon would be a Sorcerer with Silent Spell meta just to be able to *bamf* out of a silenced Force Bubble. My whole thought in this query was to figure out if Frightful Presence and Lair Actions would still be useful in addition to the dozen+ minions that were trying desperately to break the concentration of the casters.
So, what happens when a Dragon in it's lair is trapped in a spherical Wall of Force. Obviously it's trapped in the Force Sphere, and cannot attack or breathe through per RAW.
The question is, can the Dragon still produce it's Lair Actions and does it's Frightful Presence extend beyond the Force Sphere?
Looking at old rulings by Mike Mearls, he stated that Wall of Force would block spells via, "a barrier that stops physical objects stops spells." And more recently, Jeremy Crawford referenced the PHB, p 204 ("Unless a spell says otherwise, you can't target someone behind total cover.") regarding Wall of Force by saying "Cover is a physical obstruction, not necessarily a visual one."
I'm personally of the opinion that the Frightful Presence, since it's effectively an aura requiring an enemy see the dragon to be affected, and the Wall of Force being clear, mean that it would function normally. But, I think the Lair Actions, because they require targeting points for effects to happen such as Magma spouts, or Walls of Thickets to form, would not work beyond the Sphere of Force.
If anyone can inform me differently, please do so. I'm honestly curious to see arguments made either way...
A smart DM would simply handwave away that the Adult or Ancient Dragon (clearly not a Young one, if the players have Wall of Force available), got clear of the effect, and not trapped. No way, no how, does a good DM let the players, no matter how clever, end a BBEG encounter so easily. So yes, the full menu of options is available for that Dragon. Of course, the Dragon may decide to grin, and simply wait it out inside the Wall of Force. If the Dragon can't get at the players, the player's can't get at it. And yes, ALL my dragons have spell casting abilities for events like this.
I'm really not a fan of hand-waving and rule-0 invocations. I firmly believe that if everyone playing is an adult, there shouldn't be a "because I said so" moment except where there needs to be a settling of a dispute.
There's just no way the dragon gets clear of the effect. It's specifically in the spell's rules that the caster gets to decide what's in and out if it touches the wall. And I also like to give my dragons some spellcasting, or innate spell-like abilities that reflect their typing. Players anticipating this actually worked together to hold actions to get off, in order, the following: - Silence [Lore Bard] - Insect Plague (Triggered by Silence) [Tempest Cleric] - Wall of Force, Sphere Version (Triggered by Silence) [Diviner Wizard]
Because they all went off one after the other, and no "end of turn" happened, the Dragon couldn't use legendary actions to move out of the areas of effect. I wasn't about to hand-wave that ingenuity away. I even had the presence to have the Dragon attempt to Counter Spell the Wall of Force, but the Bard countered the Counter Spell. All legit. It couldn't use it's misty step to get out because innate spells still require the vocal components to work.
As I said, while I'm a fan of giving dragons some innate spellcasting, I don't like giving them actual caster levels. That's too meta for me. Certainly, any Dragon would be a Sorcerer with Silent Spell meta just to be able to *bamf* out of a silenced Force Bubble. My whole thought in this query was to figure out if Frightful Presence and Lair Actions would still be useful in addition to the dozen+ minions that were trying desperately to break the concentration of the casters.
OK, I get your point. IF the Dragon has minions that have the potential to break the Concentration of the caster, then it can be a suspenseful race to see what happens first: The players figure out a way to kill the Dragon, or the Dragon escapes and finds a way to kill the players. But if the Dragon is solo, the Wall of Force becomes an "I-Win" button, or at least "I-Win for 10 rounds) button.
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So, what happens when a Dragon in it's lair is trapped in a spherical Wall of Force. Obviously it's trapped in the Force Sphere, and cannot attack or breathe through per RAW.
The question is, can the Dragon still produce it's Lair Actions and does it's Frightful Presence extend beyond the Force Sphere?
Looking at old rulings by Mike Mearls, he stated that Wall of Force would block spells via, "a barrier that stops physical objects stops spells." And more recently, Jeremy Crawford referenced the PHB, p 204 ("Unless a spell says otherwise, you can't target someone behind total cover.") regarding Wall of Force by saying "Cover is a physical obstruction, not necessarily a visual one."
I'm personally of the opinion that the Frightful Presence, since it's effectively an aura requiring an enemy see the dragon to be affected, and the Wall of Force being clear, mean that it would function normally. But, I think the Lair Actions, because they require targeting points for effects to happen such as Magma spouts, or Walls of Thickets to form, would not work beyond the Sphere of Force.
If anyone can inform me differently, please do so. I'm honestly curious to see arguments made either way...
Oh no :)
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Frightful Presence is not a magic effect.
Lair Actions are not magic effects, unless they specifically describe themselves as magical.
But, there are no rules to be found in any rule book (PHB, DMG, or MM) about line of effect for non-spells. The RAI is that effect targeting and placement follows the same rules provided for spells in the PHB. So, we're dragged right back into the same 11 page thread, no matter how much a DM might want to carve out an exception for their own beasties that they aren't willing to extend to players.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
A smart DM would simply handwave away that the Adult or Ancient Dragon (clearly not a Young one, if the players have Wall of Force available), got clear of the effect, and not trapped. No way, no how, does a good DM let the players, no matter how clever, end a BBEG encounter so easily. So yes, the full menu of options is available for that Dragon. Of course, the Dragon may decide to grin, and simply wait it out inside the Wall of Force. If the Dragon can't get at the players, the player's can't get at it. And yes, ALL my dragons have spell casting abilities for events like this.
I find “Hand waving” is a sign of an unprepared DM. There are tons of opportunities to play within the rules and make every encounter interesting. And there’s nothing wrong with clever PCs doing something unique and getting away with it either.
I agree with the addition of spells for dragons, minions that are trained to test the concentration of wizards, lair effects that focus fire, etc. They’re smarter than the smartest wizard after all.
But hand waving? Nah. That’s just a one way ticket to “don’t bother doing anything creative, DM wants us to fight this baddie so we just gotta fight it like normal…”
I rule that the frightful presence works through the wall of force.
You might intellectually know that the wall of force means you are safe from the dragon, but deep down, at an instinctual level, your brain doesn't know that. All it knows is a primal fear of dragons.
Also, as noted above, wall of force is a spell that generates a lot of argument. A lot… As a GM, you should decide your interpretation early and let everyone know.
In my opinion trapping a dragon in a wall of force also protects it against you. That spell is best used to divide a large group of opponents into two groups, or separate a BBEG’s minions from the BBEG so they can be taken care of separately. Against a dragon it just gives the dragon a chance to catch its breath.
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Technically you don’t even need to see a dragon to be affected by it’s frightful presence...simple awareness of it is enough per the text. I say it works through the wall.
Lair actions would definitely still work.
I'm really not a fan of hand-waving and rule-0 invocations. I firmly believe that if everyone playing is an adult, there shouldn't be a "because I said so" moment except where there needs to be a settling of a dispute.
There's just no way the dragon gets clear of the effect. It's specifically in the spell's rules that the caster gets to decide what's in and out if it touches the wall. And I also like to give my dragons some spellcasting, or innate spell-like abilities that reflect their typing. Players anticipating this actually worked together to hold actions to get off, in order, the following:
- Silence [Lore Bard]
- Insect Plague (Triggered by Silence) [Tempest Cleric]
- Wall of Force, Sphere Version (Triggered by Silence) [Diviner Wizard]
Because they all went off one after the other, and no "end of turn" happened, the Dragon couldn't use legendary actions to move out of the areas of effect. I wasn't about to hand-wave that ingenuity away. I even had the presence to have the Dragon attempt to Counter Spell the Wall of Force, but the Bard countered the Counter Spell. All legit. It couldn't use it's misty step to get out because innate spells still require the vocal components to work.
As I said, while I'm a fan of giving dragons some innate spellcasting, I don't like giving them actual caster levels. That's too meta for me. Certainly, any Dragon would be a Sorcerer with Silent Spell meta just to be able to *bamf* out of a silenced Force Bubble. My whole thought in this query was to figure out if Frightful Presence and Lair Actions would still be useful in addition to the dozen+ minions that were trying desperately to break the concentration of the casters.
OK, I get your point. IF the Dragon has minions that have the potential to break the Concentration of the caster, then it can be a suspenseful race to see what happens first: The players figure out a way to kill the Dragon, or the Dragon escapes and finds a way to kill the players. But if the Dragon is solo, the Wall of Force becomes an "I-Win" button, or at least "I-Win for 10 rounds) button.