Can a Multiclass Wizard3/Ranger4 with Magic Initiate (Warlock) - Armor of Agathys cast this spell with their higher level multiclass spell slots?
I've seen people say no, but I'm not sure that is the correct RAW answer. I'd love to present this case, and hear what people here think.
Okay, so lets start with the SA Compendium answer, as that the best place to start:
If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes. For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know, so you can use your spell slots to cast the 1st-level sorcerer spell you learn from Magic Initiate. Similarly, if you are a wizard and pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell, which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare. In short, you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determine whether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learn from Magic Initiate.
Looking at this, it is easy to see why people say the answer to the question posed here is a No. The examples clearly spell it out for us (pun intended). But, let's take a second look at the bolded parts, and also follow the logic this answer is using. The answer provided is a Yes. But it is a conditional yes. The main body of this answer gives us 2 examples of conditions that would allow the answer to be Yes. But that final line, read that line again. "You must follow your character's spellcasting rules." Well, we're not a single class spellcaster, are we? Our spell slots can be used to cast spells from any class.
So, keeping in mind that answer's last sentence, let's look at the (optional) ruleset for Multiclass Spellcasters and their spell slots:
Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, and half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any spells of that higher level.
For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don't know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects.
So, we have higher level spell slots. And we can use them to cast any spells we know. It says as much several times. Unambiguously so.
What's clear from this is that if we know a spell, and are a multiclass spellcaster, our spell slots can be used to cast any spell known. And we can upcast it too!
So that only really leaves one question unanswered. Do we know Armor of Agathys when we take it from Magic Initiate? And we know the answer to this is yes for two reasons! One, the SA Compendium tells us we know it and can cast it with valid spell slots. And two, the text of the feat tells us that we learn the spell. Just like we learn the Cantrips.
You learn two cantrips of your choice from that class's spell list. In addition, choose one 1st-level spell to learn from that same list. Using this feat, you can cast the spell once at its lowest level, and you must finish a long rest before you can cast it in this way again.
So, from what I can tell, we:
1. Know Armor of Agathys, castable if we have valid spell slots
-and-
2. Have valid spell slots because multiclass spell slots just are valid for any know spell
My suspicion is that since Multiclass is an optional rule, it probably wasn't even taken into consideration for the writing of the SA Compendium, and that as soon as you are using this optional rule, it spits out a different but similar "Yes, but" result: Yes, but you must have the multiclass spell slots available to cast it. Am I wrong on this? If so where?
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. (And sorry I suck at formatting.)
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The part you are missing is how the feat is applied and how "spells known" are applied in multiclassing.
Regarding applying the feat: You don't apply it to the character as a whole, you apply it to the class. So if you take the feat at Ranger 4, the class you took the feat in is "Ranger" and the SAC tells you to apply the ranger rules for spells known which say you use those slots to cast Ranger spells you know. Since AoA is not a ranger spell, you can't use the slots.
This is reinforced by this rule from the Multiclassing rules for spells known:
"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
This says also that your spells known are dictated by the classes individually. So both tie back to the Ranger spellcasting feature, which matches the wording of the sorcerer's mentioned in the SAC (with ranger subbed in for sorcerer, obviously). So in conclusion, the feat only allows you to cast the spell using slots if you can using the rules for spellcasting for your class, and the rules for spellcasting for your class say you can only use those slots for ranger spells (and wizard, because of the multiclassing rules)
My suspicion is that since Multiclass is an optional rule, it probably wasn't even taken into consideration for the writing of the SA Compendium, and that as soon as you are using this optional rule, it spits out a different but similar "Yes, but" result: Yes, but you must have the multiclass spell slots available to cast it. Am I wrong on this? If so where?
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. (And sorry I suck at formatting.)
Yes, you're correct, but a full explanation is very involved - there's no question your GM will houserule the multiclassing rules, as they're broken. Here we go:
A character who uses Magic Initiate on Armor of Agathys (Warlock) has learned the Warlock spell, Armor of Agathys.
Learned spells are not well-defined for a wizard; page 114 of the PHB has a rules block entitled "learning spells of 1st level and higher" which then provides no rules text for learning spells, only for adding them to your spellbook. The only reason wizards can add wizard spells they learn from Magic Initiate to their spellbook is that the SAC entry you quoted says they can. In any case, monoclass wizards can explicitly only use their slots on the wizard spells they have prepared.
However, this is wildly different for Rangers - Rangers have actual rules for learning spells. Nothing is fundamentally weird about a Ranger learning and then knowing a spell - that's just how Rangers work. However, due to errata, which is referred to by the SAC entry, the Ranger spellcasting ability says that its slots may only cast Ranger spells the Ranger knows. That's why a monoclass Ranger who does this can't use slots on Armor of Agathys.
The multiclassing rules were written before errata, and were not then errataed to keep up with errata: every spellcasting class in the game was errated with the same nerf of their spellcasting ability (or pact magic, for warlocks) being modified to only support the spells of that particular class. For example, wizard spellcasting now says you can use slots to cast wizard spells you have prepared, while ranger spellcasting now says you can use slots to cast ranger spells you know. These are written such that they reference only their own slot tables - for example, the wizard rules block says the wizard table shows you how many slots you have to cast wizard spells. This has some immediate consequences, stemming from the multiclass rules sentence you provided: You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know - and potentially enhance their effects.
As you correctly pointed out, a multiclass spellcaster can cast any spell they know, provided they use a slot of a level for which they do not know or prepare any spells. This rule will let you cast Armor of Agathys, but only if you use a slot for which you neither know nor prepare spells.
And now the very, very bad news: the multiclass spellcasting rules do not actually say, at any point, you can use your multiclass slots to cast spells you prepare. There just is no such rule.
And now the very, very stupid news: the errata on wizard, specifically wizard, defined knowing spells for them: wizards by definition know the spells in their spellbook. This means that just like with Armor of Agathys, you can use slots above your know/prepare limit to cast any wizard spell you know, without preparing it.
Things are deeply strange when it comes to the lower level spell slots, because the multiclass rules say this: Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below. If you multiclass but have the Spellcasting feature from only one class, you follow the rules as described in that class.
Did you notice that the word "instead" is not present after the word "below"?
As errata makes it clear multiclasses have cantrips, it's implied that multiclass spellcasting adds to monoclass spellcasting, which makes no sense. See below for more.
So, you said Wizard 3/Ranger 4, right? That's caster level 5. Slots are 4/3/2; if you check each of your two classes individually, your slots are 3/0/0 (Ranger) and 4/2/0 (Wizard). You know 3 1st-level ranger spells and up to every level 1 and level 2 wizard spell in the game; you can prepare 2-8 of them, depending on your Intelligence modifier.
Your 2 L3 spell slots can be used to cast Armor of Agathys, any Ranger spell you know, or any wizard spell you know, which is any wizard spell in your spellbook; there is no requirement you prepare anything.
Your 3 L2 slots work like this, RAW: you can use 2 of your 3 slots on prepared wizard spells, because the Wizard class says you can, and the third slot cannot be used for anything, as no rule anywhere in the rulebook lets you cast any spells with it.
Your 4 L1 slots work like this: you can spend all 4 on Wizard spells you have prepared, and you can spend up to 3 on Ranger spells you know - there's no rule anywhere letting you spend all 4 slots on Ranger spells.
This is caused by the multiclass rules giving you spell slots and then not giving you rules for spending them, but the rules back on the core classes that let you spend them explicitly restrict slots by both level and class - e.g. Ranger says you have, for Ranger 4, 3 L1 slots to cast your Ranger spells with, which is why there's just no RAW rationale for letting the fourth L1 slot you have as a multiclasser be used for a Ranger spell. Things get way worse if you replace core class spellcasting with multiclass - for example, your wizard would lose ritual casting (and using arcane foci and cantrips, except that they're explicitly kept, per SAC), since that's under Wizard spellcasting. Plus, you'd still have no legal way to spend slots on your prepared wizard spells. So replacing is right out, and adding makes no sense.
So I hope that covers your questions, RAW. Literally no one follows the RAW for multiclass spellcasters, including dndbeyond itself, or roll20. If you want to follow the houserule I think just about everyone follows by mutual accord, the answer to your question is no; everyone plays multiclass spellcasters as being able to spend a slot on a spell if and only if they have it prepared from a class they have that prepares or known from a class they have that doesn't prepare.
The part you are missing is how the feat is applied and how "spells known" are applied in multiclassing.
Regarding applying the feat: You don't apply it to the character as a whole, you apply it to the class. So if you take the feat at Ranger 4, the class you took the feat in is "Ranger" and the SAC tells you to apply the ranger rules for spells known which say you use those slots to cast Ranger spells you know. Since AoA is not a ranger spell, you can't use the slots.
I don't follow the italicized parts. You don't have ranger spell slots, you're multiclass, and use multiclass spell slots.
Unless you are making the case that:
A Warlock3/Ranger4 also couldn't cast AoA with their spell slots. Because AoA isn't a Ranger spell but would be quarantined to only their Ranger features... so you'd need to only consider your Ranger Class features, alone, when determining if you can cast it?
Because the SA Compendium directly contradicts that interpretation, if that even is what you're saying. I'm probably misunderstanding you.
This is reinforced by this rule from the Multiclassing rules for spells known:
"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
Right. Yes. So our Wizard3/Ranger4 warlock Initiate has spells known from 3 classes, and we manage which spells are known or prepared individually, they're not just some lumped up pool. Basically, what it's saying is we're not writing any of our ranger spells into our spellbook, and neither can we prepare wiz lvl + int spells include any of those ranger spells. Much the same, even though we know AoA we can't prep it in our wizard list either. All known spells are segregated by their respective classes.
I'm 100% on board with that.
We have Wiz spells separate from Ranger spells and separate from our one known Warlock spell. All separate.
This says also that your spells known are dictated by the classes individually. So both tie back to the Ranger spellcasting feature, which matches the wording of the sorcerer's mentioned in the SAC (with ranger subbed in for sorcerer, obviously).So in conclusion, the feat only allows you to cast the spell using slots if you can using the rules for spellcasting for your class, and the rules for spellcasting for your class say you can only use those slots for ranger spells (and wizard, because of the multiclassing rules)
I 100% agree with the first sentence. I don't understand what you're saying in the italicized part, I might be missing something? And finally the underlined part is your conclusion but I can't see how you got to it. Can you elaborate on any of this?
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The feat says to "choose a class" , not "choose spells" initially. Look again at the SAC ruling...the SAC is actually saying it doesn't care about the slot and spells known rules. The ruling only says the MI class and the PC class have to match. (Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes...). The examples and further explanation talk about spell slots and spells known, etc...but the initial ruling is that the classes have to match.
So the feat only actually cares about the classes matching...it doesn't care about slot rules, spells known rules, or even the multiclass rules...it only cares about the matched classes. So your Ranger/Wizard could choose MI-Wizard and be good, but any other class (there is no MI-Ranger) won't work.
I have big opinions on this subject, and the TLDR is that Magic Initiate is bogged down by SAC rulings that rely on unwritten rules, which are not justified interpretations, and certainly don't make sense in light of later feats that allow you to "learn" spells. But it's complicated, because having "learned" a spell means something different for a singleclass known-caster vs. a singleclass prep-caster, a multiclass known-caster/warlock, a multiclass prep-caster/warlock, etc.
But I have a busy day at work today and can't get into it. Just remember that SAC aren't rules, look to the text of the feat, individual spellcasting classes, and the multiclass casters section to find your answers, not JC's half-baked tweets.
I have big opinions on this subject, and the TLDR is that Magic Initiate is bogged down by SAC rulings that rely on unwritten rules, which are not justified interpretations, and certainly don't make sense in light of later feats that allow you to "learn" spells. But it's complicated, because having "learned" a spell means something different for a singleclass known-caster vs. a singleclass prep-caster, a multiclass known-caster/warlock, a multiclass prep-caster/warlock, etc.
But I have a busy day at work today and can't get into it. Just remember that SAC aren't rules, look to the text of the feat, individual spellcasting classes, and the multiclass casters section to find your answers, not JC's half-baked tweets.
SAC isn't JC's half-baked tweets, it's a pdf file WOTC offers for download and refers to as "the official D&D rules FAQ" - it's as valid a rules source as the PHB. The PDF itself refers to its contents as "official rulings".
Magic initiate is broken in a way that makes it work differently for different classes. Classes that have to prepare their spells essentially gain nothing extra from the feat besides what is written, while classes that don't gain 1 additional spell known that they can spend slots on. I simply house rule that the spell is also "prepared", so it effects all classes equally. This does not answer your question though.
The multiclass spellcasting rules does not give you the ability to cast spells using spell slots, that is something your base classes have. So with magic initiate warlock, you know a warlock spell, but do not have a class feature that says you can cast your warlock spells using slots. So you can't.
Magic initiate is broken in a way that makes it work differently for different classes. Classes that have to prepare their spells essentially gain nothing extra from the feat besides what is written, while classes that don't gain 1 additional spell known that they can spend slots on. I simply house rule that the spell is also "prepared", so it effects all classes equally. This does not answer your question though.
Even more straightforward would be to fix Magic Initiate to work like Artificer Initiate, just with two cantrips instead of a cantrip and a tool proficiency that also lets you use the tool as a focus. But yes, even with monoclassing, Magic Initiate is way better on an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight than a Wizard, which really highlights how biased it is towards know-casters over prep-casters.
The multiclass spellcasting rules does not give you the ability to cast spells using spell slots, that is something your base classes have. So with magic initiate warlock, you know a warlock spell, but do not have a class feature that says you can cast your warlock spells using slots. So you can't.
I was curious, so I checked out Tasha's. Artificers do indeed have slightly better wording on their spellcasting feature, but it's not enough to address the issues I highlighted in my post.
Artificer wording: "The Artificer table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your artificer spells. To cast one of your artificer spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest."
They're a prepared caster, so if they use multiclassing to gain more slots than the Artificer table gives them, no rule in the game lets them use any of those slots on Artificer spells - they don't even have the weird Wizard errata declaring that they know any spells at all, so they're just stuck in the same boat as Paladins, Druids, and Clerics.
So, you said Wizard 3/Ranger 4, right? That's caster level 5. Slots are 4/3/2; if you check each of your two classes individually, your slots are 3/0/0 (Ranger) and 4/2/0 (Wizard). You know 3 1st-level ranger spells and up to every level 1 and level 2 wizard spell in the game; you can prepare 2-8 of them, depending on your Intelligence modifier.
Your 2 L3 spell slots can be used to cast Armor of Agathys, any Ranger spell you know, or any wizard spell you know, which is any wizard spell in your spellbook; there is no requirement you prepare anything.
Your 3 L2 slots work like this, RAW: you can use 2 of your 3 slots on prepared wizard spells, because the Wizard class says you can, and the third slot cannot be used for anything, as no rule anywhere in the rulebook lets you cast any spells with it.
Your 4 L1 slots work like this: you can spend all 4 on Wizard spells you have prepared, and you can spend up to 3 on Ranger spells you know - there's no rule anywhere letting you spend all 4 slots on Ranger spells.
This is caused by the multiclass rules giving you spell slots and then not giving you rules for spending them, but the rules back on the core classes that let you spend them explicitly restrict slots by both level and class - e.g. Ranger says you have, for Ranger 4, 3 L1 slots to cast your Ranger spells with, which is why there's just no RAW rationale for letting the fourth L1 slot you have as a multiclasser be used for a Ranger spell. Things get way worse if you replace core class spellcasting with multiclass - for example, your wizard would lose ritual casting (and using arcane foci and cantrips, except that they're explicitly kept, per SAC), since that's under Wizard spellcasting. Plus, you'd still have no legal way to spend slots on your prepared wizard spells. So replacing is right out, and adding makes no sense.
So I hope that covers your questions, RAW. Literally no one follows the RAW for multiclass spellcasters, including dndbeyond itself, or roll20. If you want to follow the houserule I think just about everyone follows by mutual accord, the answer to your question is no; everyone plays multiclass spellcasters as being able to spend a slot on a spell if and only if they have it prepared from a class they have that prepares or known from a class they have that doesn't prepare.
Thanks for this whole breakdown! There is a lot of well thought out rationale here and it was a fantastic read through. Pairing down to just this bit above, because this is what I wanted to speak to directly.
I follow you, fully, on point (1). I hadn't even made the connection to the fact that RAW, you could cast just any spell known, and for a wizard any spell known is a big deal!
On points (2) and (3) I'm not sure I follow. Unless, you mean that our lower level Multiclass slots aren't valid for spellcasting purposes, and we are instead using our single class slots? But the multiclass rules gives us an alternative spell slot formula, and the single class spellcasting doesn't say we must use *only* wizard slots. In fact, the phrase "wizard spell slot" doesn't appear in the rules at all. Spell slots don't have a class identifier. A slot is a slot is a slot. They're only differentiated by level. The spellcasting feature is simply the permissive text that allows you to expend "a spell slot" to cast the spell. No distinction is made as to where that slot is from.
But I do see the distinction you're making between these two groups of spell slots, and do agree there: RAW, you could only use "spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare" to cast your Armor of Agathys spell from Magic Initiate, since this is the only group of spell slots that the multiclass rules explicitly gives us permission to spend to cast any known spell with. The implication is we can do this with any of our slots, but that is never explicitly stated.
So, it should work like so then:
1. Your two L3 spell slots can be used to cast Armor of Agathys, any Ranger spell you know, or any wizard spell you know, which is any wizard spell in your spellbook; there is no requirement you prepare anything.
2. Your three L2 and four L1 slots can only be used to cast your Ranger spells known and/or your Wizard spells prepared, in any combination. But not your Armor of Agathys spell known.
For Point 1, our permission to cast any known spell with these slots is derived from the multiclass rules themselves: "If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare.You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells."
For Point 2, we are deriving our permission to cast our respective class spells from their respective Spellcasting class texts.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The multiclass spellcasting rules does not give you the ability to cast spells using spell slots, that is something your base classes have. So with magic initiate warlock, you know a warlock spell, but do not have a class feature that says you can cast your warlock spells using slots. So you can't.
They do though. Multiclass spellcasting rules do give you the ability to cast spells you know. Any feature that says you can cast a spell... well, allows you to cast a spell. The "class feature" Spellcasting isn't the ONLY thing that could allow someone to cast spells. heck, even Magic Initiate ITSELF lets you cast the chosen spell once a day. If you're a fighter with zero spellcasting features whatsoever, and take the Magic Initiate feat, you DO get to cast the spell you know.
Why? Because the feat grants you permission to do so, it says you can.
Using this feat, you can cast the spell once at its lowest level, and you must finish a long rest before you can cast it in this way again.
This doesn't give you Spellcasting feature, nor Pact Magic feature, or access to those features. Clearly you can cast spells without those features if something else tells you that you can cast the spell.
For our case, that is the optional multiclass rules we are using in the hypothetical case of the Wiz3/Ranger4 warlock initiate. They can cast their level one warlock spell because:
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells
...
You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects.
This is permissive text, just like the Magic Initiate feat's freeby-cast text, or like found in the various Spellcasting/Pact Magic features, that specifically tells us that we can use these slots to cast spells we know.
Bizarrely, as someone pointed out earlier, this really only does seem to apply to the exact category of slots that are "of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare". So, if you have a 3rd level slot or two, but do not know or cannot prepare any 3rd level spells, then these 3rd level slots can be used to cast any spell you do know. And, you know the 1st level spell Magic Initiate gives you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
On points (2) and (3) I'm not sure I follow. Unless, you mean that our lower level Multiclass slots aren't valid for spellcasting purposes, and we are instead using our single class slots? But the multiclass rules gives us an alternative spell slot formula, and the single class spellcasting doesn't say we must use *only* wizard slots. In fact, the phrase "wizard spell slot" doesn't appear in the rules at all. Spell slots don't have a class identifier. A slot is a slot is a slot. They're only differentiated by level. The spellcasting feature is simply the permissive text that allows you to expend "a spell slot" to cast the spell. No distinction is made as to where that slot is from.
You're half right. So you have spell slots, of some amount, right? In this case, 4/3/2. But you can't use any of them to cast anything unless a rule in the game says you can. Here, for example, is the actual rule letting you cast spells you've prepared, as a Wizard:
"The Wizard table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest."
Now, if you were to argue that the rule above goes away when you multiclass, and I think that's an absurd claim, you'd lose the ability to cast prepared wizard spells, full stop. If we're on the same page that the above rule stays and you also get the multiclassing rules, I will draw your attention to this bit: "The Wizard table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher." That rule doesn't go away. So when the multiclassing rules add spell slots to you, any additional slots of a level you can already know/prepare do not get an accompanying rule letting you validly cast, say, wizard spells with them. The same thing happens with Ranger spells.
To reiterate: as you correctly stated, spell slots aren't typed in any way. In fact, you could have 300 L1 spell slots, from some source. That still wouldn't let you cast more than, in this case, 4 wizard spells with your L1 slots. The additional slots you get from multiclassing only have text letting you use them to actually cast when you reach the ones above a level for which you can know and prepare.
But I do see the distinction you're making between these two groups of spell slots, and do agree there: RAW, you could only use "spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare" to cast your Armor of Agathys spell from Magic Initiate, since this is the only group of spell slots that the multiclass rules explicitly gives us permission to spend to cast any known spell with. The implication is we can do this with any of our slots, but that is never explicitly stated.
So, it should work like so then:
1. Your two L3 spell slots can be used to cast Armor of Agathys, any Ranger spell you know, or any wizard spell you know, which is any wizard spell in your spellbook; there is no requirement you prepare anything.
2. Your three L2 and four L1 slots can only be used to cast your Ranger spells known and/or your Wizard spells prepared, in any combination. But not your Armor of Agathys spell known.
For Point 1, our permission to cast any known spell with these slots is derived from the multiclass rules themselves: "If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare.You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells."
For Point 2, we are deriving our permission to cast our respective class spells from their respective Spellcasting class texts.
Well, you're cherry picking, but it's not like I can fault you. Like I said, no one plays with the actual RAW.
If we take, for example, the sample build's third L2 slot. Any argument you can use said slot to cast a wizard spell you have prepared will also, of necessity, also mean you can use the L3 slots for wizard spells you have prepared. We've already discussed how wizards are odd ducks, so to avoid confusing the issue, it might help to think about a ranger/cleric (for a cleric, spells known is a completely undefined thing). Same thing: any argument you can use the third L2 slot for a prepared cleric spell must also mean you can use the L3 slots for prepared cleric spells, because you'll be arguing you can use spell slots for prepared cleric spells without being beholden to the rule about the cleric table.
For the L1 spells, the same logic applies to the fourth L1 slot: any argument you make that it can be used for Ranger spells is also an argument that the L2 and L3 slots will work on Ranger spells.
But no one plays this way. It's incredibly dumb. The only part of the multiclassing spell rules people actually keep is the nerf to slot progression for Paladins, Rangers, Arcane Tricksters, and Eldritch Knights - otherwise, we use the multiclassing rules to figure out slot count, then let people cast the spells they know and the spells they prepare, as I clarified in another post above.
On points (2) and (3) I'm not sure I follow. Unless, you mean that our lower level Multiclass slots aren't valid for spellcasting purposes, and we are instead using our single class slots? But the multiclass rules gives us an alternative spell slot formula, and the single class spellcasting doesn't say we must use *only* wizard slots. In fact, the phrase "wizard spell slot" doesn't appear in the rules at all. Spell slots don't have a class identifier. A slot is a slot is a slot. They're only differentiated by level. The spellcasting feature is simply the permissive text that allows you to expend "a spell slot" to cast the spell. No distinction is made as to where that slot is from.
You're half right. So you have spell slots, of some amount, right? In this case, 4/3/2. But you can't use any of them to cast anything unless a rule in the game says you can. Here, for example, is the actual rule letting you cast spells you've prepared, as a Wizard:
"The Wizard table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest."
Now, if you were to argue that the rule above goes away when you multiclass, and I think that's an absurd claim, you'd lose the ability to cast prepared wizard spells, full stop. If we're on the same page that the above rule stays and you also get the multiclassing rules, I will draw your attention to this bit: "The Wizard table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher." That rule doesn't go away. So when the multiclassing rules add spell slots to you, any additional slots of a level you can already know/prepare do not get an accompanying rule letting you validly cast, say, wizard spells with them. The same thing happens with Ranger spells.
To reiterate: as you correctly stated, spell slots aren't typed in any way. In fact, you could have 300 L1 spell slots, from some source. That still wouldn't let you cast more than, in this case, 4 wizard spells with your L1 slots. The additional slots you get from multiclassing only have text letting you use them to actually cast when you reach the ones above a level for which you can know and prepare.
You're right that "The Wizard table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher." doesn't go away, but I also don't think that matters. You should view this line in a way you would view two sources of Temp HP, you take the one that is better and just ignore the other one. This line describes how many slots you get, but we are instead using the better multiclass slots table instead. We certainly don't get both. This line describes how many slots we have. It is the text that gives us a resource. But The Multiclass rules tell us a different number for that same resource, and since we generally use more specific over general, the specific multiclass rules for determining number of spell slots wins out over the general class rule for determining spell slots.
It is like two classes granting you the Extra Attack feature. Or, even more abstractly: Like painting a larger picture right overtop a smaller one. The old painting is still there, but it certainly isn't what we are looking at.
But, the rest of the Spellcasting feature doesn't get painted over! Just the bits that are directly overwritten by the multiclass rules. Specific v general. Spell slots don't get earmarked for any particular class, and if you have an ability to convert slots into casts, you can use these spell slots. A spell slots is a spell slot. Zero distinction is ever, ever, ever made between them.
The line that tells us how many slots we have from the Wizard table is therefore defunct, obsolete rules text operating unseen and unfelt in the background, being overwritten by our more specific and relevant multiclass rule for determining the spell slots we have.
"The Wizard table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher."
I think if you reexamine the language of this text it'll make more sense. "these spells"? What does "these spells" mean exactly? Well, it points back to the previous sentence's referenced spells. Replace the pronoun with the noun it is referencing directly, and you can more clearly see the context and specific ruling you should be making here:
"To cast one of these spellsyour wizard spells of 1st level and higher, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher."
I really do hate these types of referenced pronoun pointers back to previous subjects, specifically in the context of functional rules text. But what'cha goin to do?
The individual class spellcasting feature does not care what the source of your spell slots are. Slots are slots.
But I do see the distinction you're making between these two groups of spell slots, and do agree there: RAW, you could only use "spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare" to cast your Armor of Agathys spell from Magic Initiate, since this is the only group of spell slots that the multiclass rules explicitly gives us permission to spend to cast any known spell with. The implication is we can do this with any of our slots, but that is never explicitly stated.
So, it should work like so then:
1. Your two L3 spell slots can be used to cast Armor of Agathys, any Ranger spell you know, or any wizard spell you know, which is any wizard spell in your spellbook; there is no requirement you prepare anything.
2. Your three L2 and four L1 slots can only be used to cast your Ranger spells known and/or your Wizard spells prepared, in any combination. But not your Armor of Agathys spell known.
For Point 1, our permission to cast any known spell with these slots is derived from the multiclass rules themselves: "If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare.You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells."
For Point 2, we are deriving our permission to cast our respective class spells from their respective Spellcasting class texts.
Well, you're cherry picking, but it's not like I can fault you. Like I said, no one plays with the actual RAW.
I suppose I could be cherry picking? But my goal is to simply explore the RAW of the rules, and present my best current understand of how they work, at least in theory. You have caught a snag in your reading of the single class Spellcrafting rules that I simply don't see. It makes sense to me in a way it doesn't seem to make sense to you. You are correct though, I don't know anyone that sticks to strict RAW, anything in contention can be and generally is just adjudicated by the DM, often even established rules get tossed out on the DM's whim. It's a flexible game lol.
If we take, for example, the sample build's third L2 slot. Any argument you can use said slot to cast a wizard spell you have prepared will also, of necessity, also mean you can use the L3 slots for wizard spells you have prepared. We've already discussed how wizards are odd ducks, so to avoid confusing the issue, it might help to think about a ranger/cleric (for a cleric, spells known is a completely undefined thing). Same thing: any argument you can use the third L2 slot for a prepared cleric spell must also mean you can use the L3 slots for prepared cleric spells, because you'll be arguing you can use spell slots for prepared cleric spells without being beholden to the rule about the cleric table.
For the L1 spells, the same logic applies to the fourth L1 slot: any argument you make that it can be used for Ranger spells is also an argument that the L2 and L3 slots will work on Ranger spells.
But no one plays this way. It's incredibly dumb. The only part of the multiclassing spell rules people actually keep is the nerf to slot progression for Paladins, Rangers, Arcane Tricksters, and Eldritch Knights - otherwise, we use the multiclassing rules to figure out slot count, then let people cast the spells they know and the spells they prepare, as I clarified in another post above.
Spell slots don't have any particular order. But, that aside, you can use all three of your L2 slots to cast wizard spells, because they are available, and your wizard spellcasting feature allows you to spend them to cast wizard spells. You could also use your L3 slots to cast prepared wizard spells too. Though, keep in mind, we only even know L2 wizard spells, so are upcasting anything we cast. And, the multiclass text also allows us to cast any wizard spell we know with these L3 slots, so two different rules giving us permission to cast our spells with these higher than known/prepared slots.
A cleric doesn't have spells known, this is true, so they wouldn't be getting permissive text through the multiclass rules texts. Instead, they'd only be getting permissive text through their normal Spellcasting feature. If it were a Clrc3/Rngr4 they'd be able to prepare L2 cleric spells, but could still use their higher level spell slots to upcast their lower level spells as is described in their Spellcasting feature. "you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher"
This all seems like a coherent RAW interpretation. Though, I do agree it is weird and very not-RAI. Would love to see an errata on the multiclass rules at some point I think.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Hmm... regarding the wonkiness of RAW multiclass Spellcasting, the issue is that it makes indirect statements, as a result of attempting to replace part but not all of your Spellcasting features.
Your capacity for spellcasting depends partly on your combined levels in all your spellcasting classes and partly on your individual levels in those classes. Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below.
So, multiclass Spellcasting is thus a mixture, as specified below. Which... gets strange, and omits crucial information that it directly references.
Spells Known and Prepared gives us this:
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
...
Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
Thus, multiclass casters (Multicasters? Multiclassters?) get their list of available spells from their individual classes' normal spells-known and spell-preparation features... but have an unstated, yet directly referenced, ability to cast those spells. It is not stated how they do so, merely that they are able to do so, and that each spell cast uses the casting ability of its associated class. (Therefore, it is either the casting features from the individual classes, or a flexible feature that emulates any other casting feature as appropriate.) Either way, each spell is guaranteed to have an associated casting feature.
When determining spell slots, though, we:
Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.
Thus, the multiclass Spellcasting feature is a piecemeal replacement. It doesn't wholly replace individual classes' casting features, nor does it use them directly. Rather, it rips the individual classes' Spellcasting features apart, keeping their ability to access spells (as spells known or prepared) but replacing their provided slot tables with the one from the multiclass Spellcasting feature, used in the manner specified.
It thus creates a bizzare amalgamation where the Ranger 4/Wizard 3 looks like they should only be able to use as many slots as on their individual class tables, but in actuality have more due to an easily overlooked gotcha in the multiclass Spellcasting wording.
Basically, the crux of the matter is that multiclass Spellcasting takes part of your classes' Spellcasting features, but not all of the features. In particular, it specifies that you:
Gain the ability to know and/or prepare spells from your individual caster classes.
Have a feature that allows you to cast spells, but whose origin is unspecified. It is not gained from your individual caster classes.
Determine the spellcasting ability to use when casting your spells based on each spell's associated class.
Gain spell slots as specified in the Multiclass Spellcaster table, rather than in your individual caster classes' tables.
Can use any slots of a higher level than your highest-level spell(s) for any spell you know.
The weirdness comes from the oblique way the multiclass Spellcasting feature mentions your ability to cast spells.
Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell. Similarly, a spellcasting focus, such as a holy symbol, can he used only for the spells from the class associated with that focus.
This is the full description of our multiclass caster's ability to cast spells, as provided in their Spells Known and Prepared feature. They don't use the "can cast spells" component of their individual classes' "spell access/casting" features; rather, they cast spells using the spellcasting ability from the class associated with each of their spells (e.g., Wisdom for Ranger spells, or Intelligence for Wizard spells). They also aren't specified as actually using their spell slots up when casting spells; strictly as written, no matter how many slots they have, the only ones that are actually consumed are the "upcast only" ones that they don't have spells for.
That said, I can see where you're coming from, too. The ability to know/prepare spells is taken from the individual caster classes, and paired with a casting feature which is only indirectly granted/stated to exist and has no explicit source, so it's reasonable to assume that the casting part comes from the individual caster classes, too. Though, I personally don't believe that's an accurate assumption if we want to be as RAW as physically possible, because the only components that are explicitly stated to come from the individual caster classes are what spells you know and can prepare, the spellcasting ability you use when casting them, and the ability to use an applicable type of spellcasting focus. The number of slots available, and ability to use spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare, come from multiclass Spellcasting itself, and the ability to cast spells seemingly is paradoxically available but not actually provided by anything.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that yeah, multiclass Spellcasting is a mess if we go strictly by RAW. xD
You would have to take a level in warlock which would defeat the purpose of taking magic initiate.
mechanically magic initiate 1st level spell can only get upcasted or cast again if the spell you choose is already on your spell list AND that spell list is from a KNOWN spell caster(not prepared)
warlock, bard, sorcerer if choosing their own class listed spell.
Eldritch Knight and arcane trickster if choosing a wizard spell. They’re known spellcasters that use the wizard spell casting list specifically...
ranger may be able to do it if they choose druid but also make sure that druid spell is on their ranger list. I’d probably never do that over fey touched though, even for a “caster” ranger.
this is why fey touched and shadow touched are so nice.
Hmm... regarding the wonkiness of RAW multiclass Spellcasting, the issue is that it makes indirect statements, as a result of attempting to replace part but not all of your Spellcasting features.
For sure. Almost every other rule-set that modifies another rule-set goes into great detail to be sure you know exactly what is getting replaced by what. The Multi-class rules are a MESS. I realized during this whole topic, and re-reading the same text several times... that Multi-clss warlocks are actually broken, RAW. Not broken, as in powerful, but as in by RAW they don't function even at all. Why? You know what warlocks don't have? The Spellcasting feature. You know what the Multiclass Spellcasting rules require for you to ever even use them? two classes with the Spellcasting feature. What's this mean? Any Spellcaster/Warlock DOESN'T USE THESE RULES. Wild right? Even the bit about how Spellcasting and Pact Magic work together, isn't applicable. Because for the rules to apply to your character, again, requires two classes with the Spellcasting feature.
"Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below."
What is the rule below?
"Pact Magic. If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know."
So crazy. RAW, this doesn't apply. Mind blowing, right?
That said, I can see where you're coming from, too. The ability to know/prepare spells is taken from the individual caster classes, and paired with a casting feature which is only indirectly granted/stated to exist and has no explicit source, so it's reasonable to assume that the casting part comes from the individual caster classes, too. Though, I personally don't believe that's an accurate assumption if we want to be as RAW as physically possible, because the only components that are explicitly stated to come from the individual caster classes are what spells you know and can prepare, the spellcasting ability you use when casting them, and the ability to use an applicable type of spellcasting focus. The number of slots available, and ability to use spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare, come from multiclass Spellcasting itself, and the ability to cast spells seemingly is paradoxically available but not actually provided by anything.
So, the reason you can still know/prepare spells of your respective spellcasting classes normally is because you never actually give up those spellcasting features. They still work. Only bits about available spell slots really ever get overwritten. Nothing in the multiclass rules tell us that you lose your spellcasting feature functions. So, what I'm getting at is the paradoxical ability to cast spells is... coming from your classes.
The only time the multiclass rules give us the ability to cast spells, directly, is when it talks about out spell slots that are higher level than the spells we know and can prepare from our classes. Those spell slots get some special text, permissive text, in the multiclass section, to describe how we can use them.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Hmm... regarding the wonkiness of RAW multiclass Spellcasting, the issue is that it makes indirect statements, as a result of attempting to replace part but not all of your Spellcasting features.
For sure. Almost every other rule-set that modifies another rule-set goes into great detail to be sure you know exactly what is getting replaced by what. The Multi-class rules are a MESS. I realized during this whole topic, and re-reading the same text several times... that Multi-clss warlocks are actually broken, RAW. Not broken, as in powerful, but as in by RAW they don't function even at all. Why? You know what warlocks don't have? The Spellcasting feature. You know what the Multiclass Spellcasting rules require for you to ever even use them? two classes with the Spellcasting feature. What's this mean? Any Spellcaster/Warlock DOESN'T USE THESE RULES. Wild right? Even the bit about how Spellcasting and Pact Magic work together, isn't applicable. Because for the rules to apply to your character, again, requires two classes with the Spellcasting feature.
"Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below."
What is the rule below?
"Pact Magic. If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know."
So crazy. RAW, this doesn't apply. Mind blowing, right?
Ooh, that's a good point, too. Should probably say "Once you have the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature from more than one class, use the rules below," then; makes me think that Pact Magic was originally planned to be called Spellcasting, but changed at some point after the Multiclass rules were written.
That said, I can see where you're coming from, too. The ability to know/prepare spells is taken from the individual caster classes, and paired with a casting feature which is only indirectly granted/stated to exist and has no explicit source, so it's reasonable to assume that the casting part comes from the individual caster classes, too. Though, I personally don't believe that's an accurate assumption if we want to be as RAW as physically possible, because the only components that are explicitly stated to come from the individual caster classes are what spells you know and can prepare, the spellcasting ability you use when casting them, and the ability to use an applicable type of spellcasting focus. The number of slots available, and ability to use spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare, come from multiclass Spellcasting itself, and the ability to cast spells seemingly is paradoxically available but not actually provided by anything.
So, the reason you can still know/prepare spells of your respective spellcasting classes normally is because you never actually give up those spellcasting features. They still work. Only bits about available spell slots really ever get overwritten. Nothing in the multiclass rules tell us that you lose your spellcasting feature functions. So, what I'm getting at is the paradoxical ability to cast spells is... coming from your classes.
The only time the multiclass rules give us the ability to cast spells, directly, is when it talks about out spell slots that are higher level than the spells we know and can prepare from our classes. Those spell slots get some special text, permissive text, in the multiclass section, to describe how we can use them.
I'm not sure whether the ability to cast spells actually comes from your classes, strictly as written, is the thing. Going back to this:
Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below.
After reading this, and looking through the rules below, it's interesting to note that at no point do the rules below actually say that you use the Spellcasting features from your classes to cast your spells. Considering that the multiclass rules are now your intended "main" Spellcasting feature (and/or an add-on meant to glue them together into a single, cohesive package, it's a bit hard to tell which is intended), and refer back to the individual classes' features at certain points, this suggests that anything not explicitly specified as coming from the class versions is instead from the multiclass version. Which, if being pedantic, does in fact include the ability to actually cast spells. (Again, at no point does it explicitly say that you cast your spells using the Spellcasting feature those spells are associated with. What it says is you use the ability and can use a spellcasting focus provided by the Spellcasting feature those spells are associated with, which is similar but not entirely identical. So, if going purely by the letter, and not reading between the lines or applying logic or common sense, the multiclass Spellcasting feature allows you to cast spells, but doesn't use your spells' associated class Spellcasting feature to do so.)
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Can a Multiclass Wizard3/Ranger4 with Magic Initiate (Warlock) - Armor of Agathys cast this spell with their higher level multiclass spell slots?
I've seen people say no, but I'm not sure that is the correct RAW answer. I'd love to present this case, and hear what people here think.
Okay, so lets start with the SA Compendium answer, as that the best place to start:
Looking at this, it is easy to see why people say the answer to the question posed here is a No. The examples clearly spell it out for us (pun intended). But, let's take a second look at the bolded parts, and also follow the logic this answer is using. The answer provided is a Yes. But it is a conditional yes. The main body of this answer gives us 2 examples of conditions that would allow the answer to be Yes. But that final line, read that line again. "You must follow your character's spellcasting rules." Well, we're not a single class spellcaster, are we? Our spell slots can be used to cast spells from any class.
So, keeping in mind that answer's last sentence, let's look at the (optional) ruleset for Multiclass Spellcasters and their spell slots:
So, we have higher level spell slots. And we can use them to cast any spells we know. It says as much several times. Unambiguously so.
What's clear from this is that if we know a spell, and are a multiclass spellcaster, our spell slots can be used to cast any spell known. And we can upcast it too!
So that only really leaves one question unanswered. Do we know Armor of Agathys when we take it from Magic Initiate? And we know the answer to this is yes for two reasons! One, the SA Compendium tells us we know it and can cast it with valid spell slots. And two, the text of the feat tells us that we learn the spell. Just like we learn the Cantrips.
So, from what I can tell, we:
1. Know Armor of Agathys, castable if we have valid spell slots
-and-
2. Have valid spell slots because multiclass spell slots just are valid for any know spell
My suspicion is that since Multiclass is an optional rule, it probably wasn't even taken into consideration for the writing of the SA Compendium, and that as soon as you are using this optional rule, it spits out a different but similar "Yes, but" result: Yes, but you must have the multiclass spell slots available to cast it. Am I wrong on this? If so where?
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. (And sorry I suck at formatting.)
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The part you are missing is how the feat is applied and how "spells known" are applied in multiclassing.
Regarding applying the feat: You don't apply it to the character as a whole, you apply it to the class. So if you take the feat at Ranger 4, the class you took the feat in is "Ranger" and the SAC tells you to apply the ranger rules for spells known which say you use those slots to cast Ranger spells you know. Since AoA is not a ranger spell, you can't use the slots.
This is reinforced by this rule from the Multiclassing rules for spells known:
"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
This says also that your spells known are dictated by the classes individually. So both tie back to the Ranger spellcasting feature, which matches the wording of the sorcerer's mentioned in the SAC (with ranger subbed in for sorcerer, obviously). So in conclusion, the feat only allows you to cast the spell using slots if you can using the rules for spellcasting for your class, and the rules for spellcasting for your class say you can only use those slots for ranger spells (and wizard, because of the multiclassing rules)
Yes, you're correct, but a full explanation is very involved - there's no question your GM will houserule the multiclassing rules, as they're broken. Here we go:
So, you said Wizard 3/Ranger 4, right? That's caster level 5. Slots are 4/3/2; if you check each of your two classes individually, your slots are 3/0/0 (Ranger) and 4/2/0 (Wizard). You know 3 1st-level ranger spells and up to every level 1 and level 2 wizard spell in the game; you can prepare 2-8 of them, depending on your Intelligence modifier.
This is caused by the multiclass rules giving you spell slots and then not giving you rules for spending them, but the rules back on the core classes that let you spend them explicitly restrict slots by both level and class - e.g. Ranger says you have, for Ranger 4, 3 L1 slots to cast your Ranger spells with, which is why there's just no RAW rationale for letting the fourth L1 slot you have as a multiclasser be used for a Ranger spell. Things get way worse if you replace core class spellcasting with multiclass - for example, your wizard would lose ritual casting (and using arcane foci and cantrips, except that they're explicitly kept, per SAC), since that's under Wizard spellcasting. Plus, you'd still have no legal way to spend slots on your prepared wizard spells. So replacing is right out, and adding makes no sense.
So I hope that covers your questions, RAW. Literally no one follows the RAW for multiclass spellcasters, including dndbeyond itself, or roll20. If you want to follow the houserule I think just about everyone follows by mutual accord, the answer to your question is no; everyone plays multiclass spellcasters as being able to spend a slot on a spell if and only if they have it prepared from a class they have that prepares or known from a class they have that doesn't prepare.
I don't follow the italicized parts. You don't have ranger spell slots, you're multiclass, and use multiclass spell slots.
Unless you are making the case that:
A Warlock3/Ranger4 also couldn't cast AoA with their spell slots. Because AoA isn't a Ranger spell but would be quarantined to only their Ranger features... so you'd need to only consider your Ranger Class features, alone, when determining if you can cast it?
Because the SA Compendium directly contradicts that interpretation, if that even is what you're saying. I'm probably misunderstanding you.
Right. Yes. So our Wizard3/Ranger4 warlock Initiate has spells known from 3 classes, and we manage which spells are known or prepared individually, they're not just some lumped up pool. Basically, what it's saying is we're not writing any of our ranger spells into our spellbook, and neither can we prepare wiz lvl + int spells include any of those ranger spells. Much the same, even though we know AoA we can't prep it in our wizard list either. All known spells are segregated by their respective classes.
I'm 100% on board with that.
We have Wiz spells separate from Ranger spells and separate from our one known Warlock spell. All separate.
I 100% agree with the first sentence. I don't understand what you're saying in the italicized part, I might be missing something? And finally the underlined part is your conclusion but I can't see how you got to it. Can you elaborate on any of this?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Strike this; I just realized this is the reason:
The feat says to "choose a class" , not "choose spells" initially. Look again at the SAC ruling...the SAC is actually saying it doesn't care about the slot and spells known rules. The ruling only says the MI class and the PC class have to match. (Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes...). The examples and further explanation talk about spell slots and spells known, etc...but the initial ruling is that the classes have to match.
So the feat only actually cares about the classes matching...it doesn't care about slot rules, spells known rules, or even the multiclass rules...it only cares about the matched classes. So your Ranger/Wizard could choose MI-Wizard and be good, but any other class (there is no MI-Ranger) won't work.
I have big opinions on this subject, and the TLDR is that Magic Initiate is bogged down by SAC rulings that rely on unwritten rules, which are not justified interpretations, and certainly don't make sense in light of later feats that allow you to "learn" spells. But it's complicated, because having "learned" a spell means something different for a singleclass known-caster vs. a singleclass prep-caster, a multiclass known-caster/warlock, a multiclass prep-caster/warlock, etc.
But I have a busy day at work today and can't get into it. Just remember that SAC aren't rules, look to the text of the feat, individual spellcasting classes, and the multiclass casters section to find your answers, not JC's half-baked tweets.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
SAC isn't JC's half-baked tweets, it's a pdf file WOTC offers for download and refers to as "the official D&D rules FAQ" - it's as valid a rules source as the PHB. The PDF itself refers to its contents as "official rulings".
Here's the PDF, for anyone interested. https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf
Magic initiate is broken in a way that makes it work differently for different classes. Classes that have to prepare their spells essentially gain nothing extra from the feat besides what is written, while classes that don't gain 1 additional spell known that they can spend slots on. I simply house rule that the spell is also "prepared", so it effects all classes equally. This does not answer your question though.
The multiclass spellcasting rules does not give you the ability to cast spells using spell slots, that is something your base classes have. So with magic initiate warlock, you know a warlock spell, but do not have a class feature that says you can cast your warlock spells using slots. So you can't.
Even more straightforward would be to fix Magic Initiate to work like Artificer Initiate, just with two cantrips instead of a cantrip and a tool proficiency that also lets you use the tool as a focus. But yes, even with monoclassing, Magic Initiate is way better on an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight than a Wizard, which really highlights how biased it is towards know-casters over prep-casters.
I was curious, so I checked out Tasha's. Artificers do indeed have slightly better wording on their spellcasting feature, but it's not enough to address the issues I highlighted in my post.
Artificer wording: "The Artificer table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your artificer spells. To cast one of your artificer spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest."
They're a prepared caster, so if they use multiclassing to gain more slots than the Artificer table gives them, no rule in the game lets them use any of those slots on Artificer spells - they don't even have the weird Wizard errata declaring that they know any spells at all, so they're just stuck in the same boat as Paladins, Druids, and Clerics.
Thanks for this whole breakdown! There is a lot of well thought out rationale here and it was a fantastic read through. Pairing down to just this bit above, because this is what I wanted to speak to directly.
I follow you, fully, on point (1). I hadn't even made the connection to the fact that RAW, you could cast just any spell known, and for a wizard any spell known is a big deal!
On points (2) and (3) I'm not sure I follow. Unless, you mean that our lower level Multiclass slots aren't valid for spellcasting purposes, and we are instead using our single class slots? But the multiclass rules gives us an alternative spell slot formula, and the single class spellcasting doesn't say we must use *only* wizard slots. In fact, the phrase "wizard spell slot" doesn't appear in the rules at all. Spell slots don't have a class identifier. A slot is a slot is a slot. They're only differentiated by level. The spellcasting feature is simply the permissive text that allows you to expend "a spell slot" to cast the spell. No distinction is made as to where that slot is from.
But I do see the distinction you're making between these two groups of spell slots, and do agree there: RAW, you could only use "spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare" to cast your Armor of Agathys spell from Magic Initiate, since this is the only group of spell slots that the multiclass rules explicitly gives us permission to spend to cast any known spell with. The implication is we can do this with any of our slots, but that is never explicitly stated.
So, it should work like so then:
1. Your two L3 spell slots can be used to cast Armor of Agathys, any Ranger spell you know, or any wizard spell you know, which is any wizard spell in your spellbook; there is no requirement you prepare anything.
2. Your three L2 and four L1 slots can only be used to cast your Ranger spells known and/or your Wizard spells prepared, in any combination. But not your Armor of Agathys spell known.
For Point 1, our permission to cast any known spell with these slots is derived from the multiclass rules themselves: "If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells."
For Point 2, we are deriving our permission to cast our respective class spells from their respective Spellcasting class texts.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
They do though. Multiclass spellcasting rules do give you the ability to cast spells you know. Any feature that says you can cast a spell... well, allows you to cast a spell. The "class feature" Spellcasting isn't the ONLY thing that could allow someone to cast spells. heck, even Magic Initiate ITSELF lets you cast the chosen spell once a day. If you're a fighter with zero spellcasting features whatsoever, and take the Magic Initiate feat, you DO get to cast the spell you know.This doesn't give you Spellcasting feature, nor Pact Magic feature, or access to those features. Clearly you can cast spells without those features if something else tells you that you can cast the spell.
For our case, that is the optional multiclass rules we are using in the hypothetical case of the Wiz3/Ranger4 warlock initiate. They can cast their level one warlock spell because:
This is permissive text, just like the Magic Initiate feat's freeby-cast text, or like found in the various Spellcasting/Pact Magic features, that specifically tells us that we can use these slots to cast spells we know.
Bizarrely, as someone pointed out earlier, this really only does seem to apply to the exact category of slots that are "of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare". So, if you have a 3rd level slot or two, but do not know or cannot prepare any 3rd level spells, then these 3rd level slots can be used to cast any spell you do know. And, you know the 1st level spell Magic Initiate gives you.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You're half right. So you have spell slots, of some amount, right? In this case, 4/3/2. But you can't use any of them to cast anything unless a rule in the game says you can. Here, for example, is the actual rule letting you cast spells you've prepared, as a Wizard:
"The Wizard table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest."
Now, if you were to argue that the rule above goes away when you multiclass, and I think that's an absurd claim, you'd lose the ability to cast prepared wizard spells, full stop. If we're on the same page that the above rule stays and you also get the multiclassing rules, I will draw your attention to this bit: "The Wizard table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher. " That rule doesn't go away. So when the multiclassing rules add spell slots to you, any additional slots of a level you can already know/prepare do not get an accompanying rule letting you validly cast, say, wizard spells with them. The same thing happens with Ranger spells.
To reiterate: as you correctly stated, spell slots aren't typed in any way. In fact, you could have 300 L1 spell slots, from some source. That still wouldn't let you cast more than, in this case, 4 wizard spells with your L1 slots. The additional slots you get from multiclassing only have text letting you use them to actually cast when you reach the ones above a level for which you can know and prepare.
Well, you're cherry picking, but it's not like I can fault you. Like I said, no one plays with the actual RAW.
If we take, for example, the sample build's third L2 slot. Any argument you can use said slot to cast a wizard spell you have prepared will also, of necessity, also mean you can use the L3 slots for wizard spells you have prepared. We've already discussed how wizards are odd ducks, so to avoid confusing the issue, it might help to think about a ranger/cleric (for a cleric, spells known is a completely undefined thing). Same thing: any argument you can use the third L2 slot for a prepared cleric spell must also mean you can use the L3 slots for prepared cleric spells, because you'll be arguing you can use spell slots for prepared cleric spells without being beholden to the rule about the cleric table.
For the L1 spells, the same logic applies to the fourth L1 slot: any argument you make that it can be used for Ranger spells is also an argument that the L2 and L3 slots will work on Ranger spells.
But no one plays this way. It's incredibly dumb. The only part of the multiclassing spell rules people actually keep is the nerf to slot progression for Paladins, Rangers, Arcane Tricksters, and Eldritch Knights - otherwise, we use the multiclassing rules to figure out slot count, then let people cast the spells they know and the spells they prepare, as I clarified in another post above.
You're right that "The Wizard table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher. " doesn't go away, but I also don't think that matters. You should view this line in a way you would view two sources of Temp HP, you take the one that is better and just ignore the other one. This line describes how many slots you get, but we are instead using the better multiclass slots table instead. We certainly don't get both. This line describes how many slots we have. It is the text that gives us a resource. But The Multiclass rules tell us a different number for that same resource, and since we generally use more specific over general, the specific multiclass rules for determining number of spell slots wins out over the general class rule for determining spell slots.
It is like two classes granting you the Extra Attack feature. Or, even more abstractly: Like painting a larger picture right overtop a smaller one. The old painting is still there, but it certainly isn't what we are looking at.
But, the rest of the Spellcasting feature doesn't get painted over! Just the bits that are directly overwritten by the multiclass rules. Specific v general. Spell slots don't get earmarked for any particular class, and if you have an ability to convert slots into casts, you can use these spell slots. A spell slots is a spell slot. Zero distinction is ever, ever, ever made between them.
The line that tells us how many slots we have from the Wizard table is therefore defunct, obsolete rules text operating unseen and unfelt in the background, being overwritten by our more specific and relevant multiclass rule for determining the spell slots we have.
I think if you reexamine the language of this text it'll make more sense. "these spells"? What does "these spells" mean exactly? Well, it points back to the previous sentence's referenced spells. Replace the pronoun with the noun it is referencing directly, and you can more clearly see the context and specific ruling you should be making here:
I really do hate these types of referenced pronoun pointers back to previous subjects, specifically in the context of functional rules text. But what'cha goin to do?
The individual class spellcasting feature does not care what the source of your spell slots are. Slots are slots.
I suppose I could be cherry picking? But my goal is to simply explore the RAW of the rules, and present my best current understand of how they work, at least in theory. You have caught a snag in your reading of the single class Spellcrafting rules that I simply don't see. It makes sense to me in a way it doesn't seem to make sense to you. You are correct though, I don't know anyone that sticks to strict RAW, anything in contention can be and generally is just adjudicated by the DM, often even established rules get tossed out on the DM's whim. It's a flexible game lol.
Spell slots don't have any particular order. But, that aside, you can use all three of your L2 slots to cast wizard spells, because they are available, and your wizard spellcasting feature allows you to spend them to cast wizard spells. You could also use your L3 slots to cast prepared wizard spells too. Though, keep in mind, we only even know L2 wizard spells, so are upcasting anything we cast. And, the multiclass text also allows us to cast any wizard spell we know with these L3 slots, so two different rules giving us permission to cast our spells with these higher than known/prepared slots.
A cleric doesn't have spells known, this is true, so they wouldn't be getting permissive text through the multiclass rules texts. Instead, they'd only be getting permissive text through their normal Spellcasting feature. If it were a Clrc3/Rngr4 they'd be able to prepare L2 cleric spells, but could still use their higher level spell slots to upcast their lower level spells as is described in their Spellcasting feature. "you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher"
This all seems like a coherent RAW interpretation. Though, I do agree it is weird and very not-RAI. Would love to see an errata on the multiclass rules at some point I think.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Hmm... regarding the wonkiness of RAW multiclass Spellcasting, the issue is that it makes indirect statements, as a result of attempting to replace part but not all of your Spellcasting features.
So, multiclass Spellcasting is thus a mixture, as specified below. Which... gets strange, and omits crucial information that it directly references.
Spells Known and Prepared gives us this:
Thus, multiclass casters (Multicasters? Multiclassters?) get their list of available spells from their individual classes' normal spells-known and spell-preparation features... but have an unstated, yet directly referenced, ability to cast those spells. It is not stated how they do so, merely that they are able to do so, and that each spell cast uses the casting ability of its associated class. (Therefore, it is either the casting features from the individual classes, or a flexible feature that emulates any other casting feature as appropriate.) Either way, each spell is guaranteed to have an associated casting feature.
When determining spell slots, though, we:
Thus, the multiclass Spellcasting feature is a piecemeal replacement. It doesn't wholly replace individual classes' casting features, nor does it use them directly. Rather, it rips the individual classes' Spellcasting features apart, keeping their ability to access spells (as spells known or prepared) but replacing their provided slot tables with the one from the multiclass Spellcasting feature, used in the manner specified.
It thus creates a bizzare amalgamation where the Ranger 4/Wizard 3 looks like they should only be able to use as many slots as on their individual class tables, but in actuality have more due to an easily overlooked gotcha in the multiclass Spellcasting wording.
Basically, the crux of the matter is that multiclass Spellcasting takes part of your classes' Spellcasting features, but not all of the features. In particular, it specifies that you:
The weirdness comes from the oblique way the multiclass Spellcasting feature mentions your ability to cast spells.
This is the full description of our multiclass caster's ability to cast spells, as provided in their Spells Known and Prepared feature. They don't use the "can cast spells" component of their individual classes' "spell access/casting" features; rather, they cast spells using the spellcasting ability from the class associated with each of their spells (e.g., Wisdom for Ranger spells, or Intelligence for Wizard spells).
They also aren't specified as actually using their spell slots up when casting spells; strictly as written, no matter how many slots they have, the only ones that are actually consumed are the "upcast only" ones that they don't have spells for.That said, I can see where you're coming from, too. The ability to know/prepare spells is taken from the individual caster classes, and paired with a casting feature which is only indirectly granted/stated to exist and has no explicit source, so it's reasonable to assume that the casting part comes from the individual caster classes, too. Though, I personally don't believe that's an accurate assumption if we want to be as RAW as physically possible, because the only components that are explicitly stated to come from the individual caster classes are what spells you know and can prepare, the spellcasting ability you use when casting them, and the ability to use an applicable type of spellcasting focus. The number of slots available, and ability to use spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare, come from multiclass Spellcasting itself, and the ability to cast spells seemingly is paradoxically available but not actually provided by anything.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that yeah, multiclass Spellcasting is a mess if we go strictly by RAW. xDYou would have to take a level in warlock which would defeat the purpose of taking magic initiate.
mechanically magic initiate 1st level spell can only get upcasted or cast again if the spell you choose is already on your spell list AND that spell list is from a KNOWN spell caster(not prepared)
warlock, bard, sorcerer if choosing their own class listed spell.
Eldritch Knight and arcane trickster if choosing a wizard spell. They’re known spellcasters that use the wizard spell casting list specifically...
ranger may be able to do it if they choose druid but also make sure that druid spell is on their ranger list. I’d probably never do that over fey touched though, even for a “caster” ranger.
this is why fey touched and shadow touched are so nice.
For sure. Almost every other rule-set that modifies another rule-set goes into great detail to be sure you know exactly what is getting replaced by what. The Multi-class rules are a MESS. I realized during this whole topic, and re-reading the same text several times... that Multi-clss warlocks are actually broken, RAW. Not broken, as in powerful, but as in by RAW they don't function even at all. Why? You know what warlocks don't have? The Spellcasting feature. You know what the Multiclass Spellcasting rules require for you to ever even use them? two classes with the Spellcasting feature. What's this mean? Any Spellcaster/Warlock DOESN'T USE THESE RULES. Wild right? Even the bit about how Spellcasting and Pact Magic work together, isn't applicable. Because for the rules to apply to your character, again, requires two classes with the Spellcasting feature.
What is the rule below?
So crazy. RAW, this doesn't apply. Mind blowing, right?
So, the reason you can still know/prepare spells of your respective spellcasting classes normally is because you never actually give up those spellcasting features. They still work. Only bits about available spell slots really ever get overwritten. Nothing in the multiclass rules tell us that you lose your spellcasting feature functions. So, what I'm getting at is the paradoxical ability to cast spells is... coming from your classes.
The only time the multiclass rules give us the ability to cast spells, directly, is when it talks about out spell slots that are higher level than the spells we know and can prepare from our classes. Those spell slots get some special text, permissive text, in the multiclass section, to describe how we can use them.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Honestly,
Ooh, that's a good point, too. Should probably say "Once you have the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature from more than one class, use the rules below," then; makes me think that Pact Magic was originally planned to be called Spellcasting, but changed at some point after the Multiclass rules were written.
I'm not sure whether the ability to cast spells actually comes from your classes, strictly as written, is the thing. Going back to this:
After reading this, and looking through the rules below, it's interesting to note that at no point do the rules below actually say that you use the Spellcasting features from your classes to cast your spells. Considering that the multiclass rules are now your intended "main" Spellcasting feature (and/or an add-on meant to glue them together into a single, cohesive package, it's a bit hard to tell which is intended), and refer back to the individual classes' features at certain points, this suggests that anything not explicitly specified as coming from the class versions is instead from the multiclass version. Which, if being pedantic, does in fact include the ability to actually cast spells. (Again, at no point does it explicitly say that you cast your spells using the Spellcasting feature those spells are associated with. What it says is you use the ability and can use a spellcasting focus provided by the Spellcasting feature those spells are associated with, which is similar but not entirely identical. So, if going purely by the letter, and not reading between the lines or applying logic or common sense, the multiclass Spellcasting feature allows you to cast spells, but doesn't use your spells' associated class Spellcasting feature to do so.)