Subtle spell is already a weaker metameric option so allowing a caster to "surprise" an enemy with a spell casting further weakens it
Wait, how do you figure that?
Off topic discussion ahead....but basically thanks to Xanathars spellcasting rules any spell that you cast that has any component (V, S, M) is detectable. So if you use subtle spell on a spell with a M component it is detectable. Because of this there is still very few amount of spells that are worth casting Subtlety. Once you whittle the list down its pretty small and overall most of the spells you can cast without any detection is limited in how useful it actually is IMO.
Suggestion is the one that people say a lot....but you still have to tell them what you want them to do. So if they all of a sudden want to give away their warhorse it doesnt take a genius to figure out the guy who asked you to give away your warhorse cast some magic on you to compel you to do so.
Counterspell is the one people bring up a lot....but you are not going to be facing those level spellcasters very often and when they do start to appear frequently you can pick up Subtle at level 10 which is completely valid IMO.
I would never take it early on though as Quicken, Twin, and the element damage swap are just better at most levels of actual play.
Using Subtle Spell on a spell with an M component you have a focus for can be functionally undetectable, because all that can be detected is you holding the focus. That's evidence you casted, but... for example, if you're a sorcerer/artificer using subtle spell on an artificer spell, your focus is just an artisan's tool. People noticing that you're holding a claw hammer doesn't mean they automatically connect the dots with you casting spells. It's not like the hammer glows.
Subtle spell is already a weaker metameric option so allowing a caster to "surprise" an enemy with a spell casting further weakens it
Wait, how do you figure that?
Off topic discussion ahead....but basically thanks to Xanathars spellcasting rules any spell that you cast that has any component (V, S, M) is detectable. So if you use subtle spell on a spell with a M component it is detectable. Because of this there is still very few amount of spells that are worth casting Subtlety. Once you whittle the list down its pretty small and overall most of the spells you can cast without any detection is limited in how useful it actually is IMO.
Suggestion is the one that people say a lot....but you still have to tell them what you want them to do. So if they all of a sudden want to give away their warhorse it doesnt take a genius to figure out the guy who asked you to give away your warhorse cast some magic on you to compel you to do so.
Counterspell is the one people bring up a lot....but you are not going to be facing those level spellcasters very often and when they do start to appear frequently you can pick up Subtle at level 10 which is completely valid IMO.
I would never take it early on though as Quicken, Twin, and the element damage swap are just better at most levels of actual play.
Using Subtle Spell on a spell with an M component you have a focus for can be functionally undetectable, because all that can be detected is you holding the focus. That's evidence you casted, but... for example, if you're a sorcerer/artificer using subtle spell on an artificer spell, your focus is just an artisan's tool. People noticing that you're holding a claw hammer doesn't mean they automatically connect the dots with you casting spells. It's not like the hammer glows.
Actually according to the Xanathar rules they do know you are casting a spell:
"But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.
If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence."
So yeah you would perceive them casting a spell with the material component....its odd I know but that's how it was clarified. Basically you can still counterspell or notice a spell being cast using a material component.
Subtle spell is already a weaker metameric option so allowing a caster to "surprise" an enemy with a spell casting further weakens it
Wait, how do you figure that?
Off topic discussion ahead....but basically thanks to Xanathars spellcasting rules any spell that you cast that has any component (V, S, M) is detectable. So if you use subtle spell on a spell with a M component it is detectable. Because of this there is still very few amount of spells that are worth casting Subtlety. Once you whittle the list down its pretty small and overall most of the spells you can cast without any detection is limited in how useful it actually is IMO.
Suggestion is the one that people say a lot....but you still have to tell them what you want them to do. So if they all of a sudden want to give away their warhorse it doesnt take a genius to figure out the guy who asked you to give away your warhorse cast some magic on you to compel you to do so.
Counterspell is the one people bring up a lot....but you are not going to be facing those level spellcasters very often and when they do start to appear frequently you can pick up Subtle at level 10 which is completely valid IMO.
I would never take it early on though as Quicken, Twin, and the element damage swap are just better at most levels of actual play.
Using Subtle Spell on a spell with an M component you have a focus for can be functionally undetectable, because all that can be detected is you holding the focus. That's evidence you casted, but... for example, if you're a sorcerer/artificer using subtle spell on an artificer spell, your focus is just an artisan's tool. People noticing that you're holding a claw hammer doesn't mean they automatically connect the dots with you casting spells. It's not like the hammer glows.
Actually according to the Xanathar rules they do know you are casting a spell:
"But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.
If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence."
So yeah you would perceive them casting a spell with the material component....its odd I know but that's how it was clarified. Basically you can still counterspell or notice a spell being cast using a material component.
You're skipping over some text, let me muck with the bolding to draw your attention to it:
"But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.
If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence."
This text simply does not say they know you are casting a spell. It says the casting is perceptible (or not). Naturally, it's perceptible that you're holding a carpenter's hammer. The GM might allow a Perception check to figure out the hammer is a focus, but I have no idea how they'd describe that. Regardless, perceptible does not mean automatically perceived, much less automatically understood.
Subtle spell is already a weaker metameric option so allowing a caster to "surprise" an enemy with a spell casting further weakens it
Wait, how do you figure that?
Off topic discussion ahead....but basically thanks to Xanathars spellcasting rules any spell that you cast that has any component (V, S, M) is detectable. So if you use subtle spell on a spell with a M component it is detectable. Because of this there is still very few amount of spells that are worth casting Subtlety. Once you whittle the list down its pretty small and overall most of the spells you can cast without any detection is limited in how useful it actually is IMO.
Suggestion is the one that people say a lot....but you still have to tell them what you want them to do. So if they all of a sudden want to give away their warhorse it doesnt take a genius to figure out the guy who asked you to give away your warhorse cast some magic on you to compel you to do so.
Counterspell is the one people bring up a lot....but you are not going to be facing those level spellcasters very often and when they do start to appear frequently you can pick up Subtle at level 10 which is completely valid IMO.
I would never take it early on though as Quicken, Twin, and the element damage swap are just better at most levels of actual play.
Using Subtle Spell on a spell with an M component you have a focus for can be functionally undetectable, because all that can be detected is you holding the focus. That's evidence you casted, but... for example, if you're a sorcerer/artificer using subtle spell on an artificer spell, your focus is just an artisan's tool. People noticing that you're holding a claw hammer doesn't mean they automatically connect the dots with you casting spells. It's not like the hammer glows.
Actually according to the Xanathar rules they do know you are casting a spell:
"But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.
If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence."
So yeah you would perceive them casting a spell with the material component....its odd I know but that's how it was clarified. Basically you can still counterspell or notice a spell being cast using a material component.
You're skipping over some text, let me muck with the bolding to draw your attention to it:
"But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.
If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence."
This text simply does not say they know you are casting a spell. It says the casting is perceptible (or not). Naturally, it's perceptible that you're holding a carpenter's hammer. The GM might allow a Perception check to figure out the hammer is a focus, but I have no idea how they'd describe that. Regardless, perceptible does not mean automatically perceived, much less automatically understood.
By perceptible here they are saying that it is perceptible that you are casting a spell.
It appears I am not the only one who reads it this way:
Also the Sentence asks that very question: "Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence?"
So perceptible here is directly stating the casting of a spell not just the fact you can see the component. Overall its pretty clear they mean the fact that the spell can be counter spelled or noticed if ANY component is present....unless you remove the component need completely by feature or ability.
Initiative starts before the spell is cast, and surprise granted to the creature casting if they didn’t telegraph their intent beforehand (perception or insight check by other creatures)
That would be an interesting house rule, but my GMs typically obey the RAW, so being aware of the caster or not is what determines surprise - typically, of course, the PCs are operating as a team, and my GMs usually go with the SAC rule for surprise, not the PHB rule, so someone noticing any threat is not surprised, rather than someone who fails to notice a threat being surprised, which means being aware of any party member shuts surprise off. In a situation where that's not really the case, you'd have to discuss with the GM who counts as hostile as who doesn't, but it boils down to are you physically aware of creatures and objects, not are you aware of emotional states. I can see the merit in an insight check, for sure, since it makes sense that with deception you could just convince someone you're not a threat and interact with the surprise rules that way.
The rules are written assuming the (most likely) situation of two groups who have not engaged with each other prior to combat starting. In the case of two non-hostile groups interacting and then becoming hostile, the "noticing" part of surprise can very easily shift to "noticing" the initial moment of hostility. If the hostility is started by the Party, that would be determined by a perception or insight check on the part of the NPCs. If the hostility is started by the NPC group, then the same for the Party.
Otherwise, there is no way to adjudicate surprise between the two groups, and the players "I suddenly cast Faerie Fire on the NPC" becomes awkward if they lose out on initiative. Prior to the moment of hostility, what do the others do? As a DM, I would not have the NPCs act prior to the actual hostile act (casting the spell), nor would I expect any party members to react prior to that moment, as until it happens there is nothing to react to. So then you have "effective surprise" if they are all RP'ing correctly, as none of the creatures who beat the caster would have anything to react to prior to the casting, at least not without changing the initial parameters of the combat.
Basically, if surprise can only be granted by "noticing" the existence of the enemy, in this case you noticed the creature, but they weren't an enemy until the hostile act occurred, thus surprise is warranted if they fail to notice the hostile act as it is performed.
Regarding Subtle Spell, that basically would grant automatic surprise (nothing to notice) or possibly would not start initiative at all, as there is not overtly hostile act to focus the groups on each other.
Subtle spell is already a weaker metameric option so allowing a caster to "surprise" an enemy with a spell casting further weakens it
Wait, how do you figure that?
Off topic discussion ahead....but basically thanks to Xanathars spellcasting rules any spell that you cast that has any component (V, S, M) is detectable. So if you use subtle spell on a spell with a M component it is detectable. Because of this there is still very few amount of spells that are worth casting Subtlety. Once you whittle the list down its pretty small and overall most of the spells you can cast without any detection is limited in how useful it actually is IMO.
Suggestion is the one that people say a lot....but you still have to tell them what you want them to do. So if they all of a sudden want to give away their warhorse it doesnt take a genius to figure out the guy who asked you to give away your warhorse cast some magic on you to compel you to do so.
Counterspell is the one people bring up a lot....but you are not going to be facing those level spellcasters very often and when they do start to appear frequently you can pick up Subtle at level 10 which is completely valid IMO.
I would never take it early on though as Quicken, Twin, and the element damage swap are just better at most levels of actual play.
Ok so this is an explanation of how Subtle Spell is a weak metamagic and it's perfectly good reasoning, but how does allowing people to surprise cast using it weaken it? It seems like a niche boost to the metamagic.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
In general I allow sufficiently subtle and unexpected spellcasting to give the spellcaster surprise, but it usually surprises the other PCs as well as the enemies.
Subtle spell is already a weaker metameric option so allowing a caster to "surprise" an enemy with a spell casting further weakens it
Wait, how do you figure that?
Off topic discussion ahead....but basically thanks to Xanathars spellcasting rules any spell that you cast that has any component (V, S, M) is detectable. So if you use subtle spell on a spell with a M component it is detectable. Because of this there is still very few amount of spells that are worth casting Subtlety. Once you whittle the list down its pretty small and overall most of the spells you can cast without any detection is limited in how useful it actually is IMO.
Suggestion is the one that people say a lot....but you still have to tell them what you want them to do. So if they all of a sudden want to give away their warhorse it doesnt take a genius to figure out the guy who asked you to give away your warhorse cast some magic on you to compel you to do so.
Counterspell is the one people bring up a lot....but you are not going to be facing those level spellcasters very often and when they do start to appear frequently you can pick up Subtle at level 10 which is completely valid IMO.
I would never take it early on though as Quicken, Twin, and the element damage swap are just better at most levels of actual play.
Ok so this is an explanation of how Subtle Spell is a weak metamagic and it's perfectly good reasoning, but how does allowing people to surprise cast using it weaken it? It seems like a niche boost to the metamagic.
Thinking around it more its actually about even really....since in this case we are maybe saying Subtle would not even provoke initiative if used as no hostile action is perceived. If we are going with that as an option I think its fine but overall a "Subtle" casting of lighting bolt would likely still proc initiative in my mind but something like Whispers might not.
DM dependent but if you are going to roll initiative when a spell is cast regardless if it is subtle or not then I see it's value lessened as you might as well just hide/deceive instead of using a metamagic option on a niche application when a skill check might produce the same effect.
Thanks for the replies. In the end, I went with something like this:
PC begins casting the faerie fire spell (v, s) - creature notices so No surprise. A light fall of coloured flakes appear, glowing and covering the room - seemingly sticking to all objects. Creature attempts a dex save....regardless of result, creature snarls in anger at having a spell cast upon it...aaand roll initiative!
I guess my thinking was that this spell is a mix of utility but has offensive consequences or is a facilitation for offense. In the end that’s why I held off on initiative
Again, thanks for the replies.
As for the subtle discussion, for me, it would still be perception on part of creatures if they have a line of sight - even if passive. If they notice, then no surprise. Subtle doesn’t affect the material components so using them is still something the PC needs to “do” to cast the spell, even if no sounds or gestures are made. But that’s more of a gut instinct than RAW - from what I can remember of subtle.
Thanks for the replies. In the end, I went with something like this:
PC begins casting the faerie fire spell (v, s) - creature notices so No surprise. A light fall of coloured flakes appear, glowing and covering the room - seemingly sticking to all objects. Creature attempts a dex save....regardless of result, creature snarls in anger at having a spell cast upon it...aaand roll initiative!
I guess my thinking was that this spell is a mix of utility but has offensive consequences or is a facilitation for offense. In the end that’s why I held off on initiative
Again, thanks for the replies.
As for the subtle discussion, for me, it would still be perception on part of creatures if they have a line of sight - even if passive. If they notice, then no surprise. Subtle doesn’t affect the material components so using them is still something the PC needs to “do” to cast the spell, even if no sounds or gestures are made. But that’s more of a gut instinct than RAW - from what I can remember of subtle.
That seems like a fair ruling...if they can see the material component then its perceptible and if not then they can't. However, you can't counterspell something if you can't see it but that would work for other applications.
PC begins casting the faerie fire spell (v, s) - creature notices so No surprise. A light fall of coloured flakes appear, glowing and covering the room - seemingly sticking to all objects. Creature attempts a dex save....regardless of result, creature snarls in anger at having a spell cast upon it...aaand roll initiative!
That's surprise. If you let something go off before the start of initiative, that's the same as having it go off during a surprise round.
Thanks for the replies. In the end, I went with something like this:
PC begins casting the faerie fire spell (v, s) - creature notices so No surprise. A light fall of coloured flakes appear, glowing and covering the room - seemingly sticking to all objects. Creature attempts a dex save....regardless of result, creature snarls in anger at having a spell cast upon it...aaand roll initiative!
I guess my thinking was that this spell is a mix of utility but has offensive consequences or is a facilitation for offense. In the end that’s why I held off on initiative
Again, thanks for the replies.
Yeah, that's how I think most DMs would have played it. Faerie fire has some niche utility application, but it is mostly a spell for making things easier to hit with attacks. And I think most creatures would realize that, not to mention the raised tension of someone suddenly setting off a glitter bomb.
PC begins casting the faerie fire spell (v, s) - creature notices so No surprise. A light fall of coloured flakes appear, glowing and covering the room - seemingly sticking to all objects. Creature attempts a dex save....regardless of result, creature snarls in anger at having a spell cast upon it...aaand roll initiative!
That's surprise. If you let something go off before the start of initiative, that's the same as having it go off during a surprise round.
PC begins casting the faerie fire spell (v, s) - creature notices so No surprise. A light fall of coloured flakes appear, glowing and covering the room - seemingly sticking to all objects. Creature attempts a dex save....regardless of result, creature snarls in anger at having a spell cast upon it...aaand roll initiative!
That's surprise. If you let something go off before the start of initiative, that's the same as having it go off during a surprise round.
Kind of, but not exactly.
No, it really is surprise. You did something unexpected and thus the NPCs didn't react in a hostile manner until you finished doing it. It's not really any different from casting Fireball.
PC begins casting the faerie fire spell (v, s) - creature notices so No surprise. A light fall of coloured flakes appear, glowing and covering the room - seemingly sticking to all objects. Creature attempts a dex save....regardless of result, creature snarls in anger at having a spell cast upon it...aaand roll initiative!
That's surprise. If you let something go off before the start of initiative, that's the same as having it go off during a surprise round.
Kind of, but not exactly.
No, it really is surprise. You did something unexpected and thus the NPCs didn't react in a hostile manner until you finished doing it. It's not really any different from casting Fireball.
Other than not being determined like surprise, or using initiative like surprise, or benefiting the whole party like surprise, or being preventable like surprise, or being called surprise, you're right just like surprise.
Other than not being determined like surprise, or using initiative like surprise, or benefiting the whole party like surprise, or being preventable like surprise, or being called surprise, you're right just like surprise.
It should be determined like surprise and use initiative like surprise and be preventable like surprise and be called surprise. It doesn't benefit the whole party because the party is surprised too.
What happens if 2 sides surprise each other? Can that even happen?
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— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Using Subtle Spell on a spell with an M component you have a focus for can be functionally undetectable, because all that can be detected is you holding the focus. That's evidence you casted, but... for example, if you're a sorcerer/artificer using subtle spell on an artificer spell, your focus is just an artisan's tool. People noticing that you're holding a claw hammer doesn't mean they automatically connect the dots with you casting spells. It's not like the hammer glows.
Actually according to the Xanathar rules they do know you are casting a spell:
"But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.
If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence."
So yeah you would perceive them casting a spell with the material component....its odd I know but that's how it was clarified. Basically you can still counterspell or notice a spell being cast using a material component.
You're skipping over some text, let me muck with the bolding to draw your attention to it:
"But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.
If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence."
This text simply does not say they know you are casting a spell. It says the casting is perceptible (or not). Naturally, it's perceptible that you're holding a carpenter's hammer. The GM might allow a Perception check to figure out the hammer is a focus, but I have no idea how they'd describe that. Regardless, perceptible does not mean automatically perceived, much less automatically understood.
By perceptible here they are saying that it is perceptible that you are casting a spell.
It appears I am not the only one who reads it this way:
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/122763/can-a-spell-cast-with-subtle-spell-and-an-arcane-focus-be-counterspelled
Also the Sentence asks that very question: "Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence?"
So perceptible here is directly stating the casting of a spell not just the fact you can see the component. Overall its pretty clear they mean the fact that the spell can be counter spelled or noticed if ANY component is present....unless you remove the component need completely by feature or ability.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perceptible
Just because you can do something does not mean you automatically succeed at it.
The rules are written assuming the (most likely) situation of two groups who have not engaged with each other prior to combat starting. In the case of two non-hostile groups interacting and then becoming hostile, the "noticing" part of surprise can very easily shift to "noticing" the initial moment of hostility. If the hostility is started by the Party, that would be determined by a perception or insight check on the part of the NPCs. If the hostility is started by the NPC group, then the same for the Party.
Otherwise, there is no way to adjudicate surprise between the two groups, and the players "I suddenly cast Faerie Fire on the NPC" becomes awkward if they lose out on initiative. Prior to the moment of hostility, what do the others do? As a DM, I would not have the NPCs act prior to the actual hostile act (casting the spell), nor would I expect any party members to react prior to that moment, as until it happens there is nothing to react to. So then you have "effective surprise" if they are all RP'ing correctly, as none of the creatures who beat the caster would have anything to react to prior to the casting, at least not without changing the initial parameters of the combat.
Basically, if surprise can only be granted by "noticing" the existence of the enemy, in this case you noticed the creature, but they weren't an enemy until the hostile act occurred, thus surprise is warranted if they fail to notice the hostile act as it is performed.
Regarding Subtle Spell, that basically would grant automatic surprise (nothing to notice) or possibly would not start initiative at all, as there is not overtly hostile act to focus the groups on each other.
In this case they are saying that is the case I believe. But we are off-topic and see things differently so I will bow out.
Ok so this is an explanation of how Subtle Spell is a weak metamagic and it's perfectly good reasoning, but how does allowing people to surprise cast using it weaken it? It seems like a niche boost to the metamagic.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
In general I allow sufficiently subtle and unexpected spellcasting to give the spellcaster surprise, but it usually surprises the other PCs as well as the enemies.
Thinking around it more its actually about even really....since in this case we are maybe saying Subtle would not even provoke initiative if used as no hostile action is perceived. If we are going with that as an option I think its fine but overall a "Subtle" casting of lighting bolt would likely still proc initiative in my mind but something like Whispers might not.
DM dependent but if you are going to roll initiative when a spell is cast regardless if it is subtle or not then I see it's value lessened as you might as well just hide/deceive instead of using a metamagic option on a niche application when a skill check might produce the same effect.
Thanks for the replies.
In the end, I went with something like this:
PC begins casting the faerie fire spell (v, s) - creature notices so No surprise. A light fall of coloured flakes appear, glowing and covering the room - seemingly sticking to all objects. Creature attempts a dex save....regardless of result, creature snarls in anger at having a spell cast upon it...aaand roll initiative!
I guess my thinking was that this spell is a mix of utility but has offensive consequences or is a facilitation for offense. In the end that’s why I held off on initiative
Again, thanks for the replies.
As for the subtle discussion, for me, it would still be perception on part of creatures if they have a line of sight - even if passive. If they notice, then no surprise. Subtle doesn’t affect the material components so using them is still something the PC needs to “do” to cast the spell, even if no sounds or gestures are made. But that’s more of a gut instinct than RAW - from what I can remember of subtle.
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DM - Our Little Lives Kept In Equipoise: Curse of Strahd
DM - Misprize Thou Not These Shadows That Belong: The Lost Mines of Phandelver
PC - Azzure - Tyranny of Dragons
That seems like a fair ruling...if they can see the material component then its perceptible and if not then they can't. However, you can't counterspell something if you can't see it but that would work for other applications.
That's surprise. If you let something go off before the start of initiative, that's the same as having it go off during a surprise round.
Yeah, that's how I think most DMs would have played it. Faerie fire has some niche utility application, but it is mostly a spell for making things easier to hit with attacks. And I think most creatures would realize that, not to mention the raised tension of someone suddenly setting off a glitter bomb.
Kind of, but not exactly.
No, it really is surprise. You did something unexpected and thus the NPCs didn't react in a hostile manner until you finished doing it. It's not really any different from casting Fireball.
Other than not being determined like surprise, or using initiative like surprise, or benefiting the whole party like surprise, or being preventable like surprise, or being called surprise, you're right just like surprise.
It should be determined like surprise and use initiative like surprise and be preventable like surprise and be called surprise. It doesn't benefit the whole party because the party is surprised too.
What happens if 2 sides surprise each other? Can that even happen?
I have had that happen and you just determine who is surprised. If everyone is surprised then I just ran initiative normally.