Title says it all. I am unsure if this is a reason to start initiative or not. My gut reaction is "Yes, roll initiative." What can you informative folk tell me?
Initiative starts even before the spell is cast. The moment a creature has the intent of casting a hostile spell, hostility has been made and initiative must be rolled. After that, surprise is determined if applicable.
It's up the DM to call for initiative rolls whenever they feel it's appropriate. If it were my game, I'd ask myself whether or not faerie fire would start a fight in that particular situation. If so, I'd call for initiative and the player would get to cast whenever it got to their turn. If not, I'd just narrate the consequences.
Title says it all. I am unsure if this is a reason to start initiative or not. My gut reaction is "Yes, roll initiative." What can you informative folk tell me?
Thanks in advance!
If you have to ask, the answer is yes. Better to roll initiative and not need it because combat doesn't ensue than to not roll it and discover you need it because combat is ensuing.
For example there is no hostile intent and therefore no need to roll initiative if. The party go to a farly small room (less than 20ft cube) to discuss their plan on how to eliminate the BBEG once and for all, they know/suspect the BBEG can scry on them so to ensure they are not being overheard the druid casts faerie fire in order to make any invisible sensor visible.
Emrfish is correct in that making a hostile action (starting to cast a hostile spell beginning a weapon attack etc) means initiative is rolled before the spell the actual process is if any creature present would consider the casting of faerie fire a hostile act against them or their allies than you:
Determine surprise,
Establish positions
Roll initiative
Take turns
Rolling initiative might not result in combat but it is a situation where turn order is important. For example, The party are in the presence of the king and the bard, with true seeing, sees a scrying sensor, being low wisdom he starts to cast faerie fire to point it out to the king. Roll initiative. If the guards roll higher on initiate they would almost certain act to prevent this spell taking place (depending on the party's standing either with am attempt to gag the bard or to straight out attack them), iif the bard goes first and reveals the sensor then things are likely to be far more peaceful.
Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time.
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Situational. A stranger with weapons (wands count as weapons in a world with offensive magic) shows up and casts a spell on you? Yes, almost definitely this will be taken as a hostile action. A performer in a show that uses illusion magic to conjure magical effects like Dancing Lights and other such effects? Probably not taken as hostile, in my opinion. The exception would be someone versed in spellcasting who knows the offensive capabilities of that spell. Maybe they would take it as hostile.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Someone casting a spell, in a possibly hostile situation, will normally start combat, regardless of what the spell is, because most observers don't know what the spell is and will assume the worst.
Yes, there are two possible triggers for the start of a combat: the caster begins casting and everyone else leaps into action, or people wait for the spell to be cast and react to it based on what actually happens. Neither is automatic, and depend on what the DM decides about the mood in the room.
Both triggers could also be bypassed completely: casting without any visible or audible components (as with subtle spell) could avoid warning anyone during the casting, and some spells have no noticeable effects.
Yes, there are two possible triggers for the start of a combat: the caster begins casting and everyone else leaps into action, or people wait for the spell to be cast and react to it based on what actually happens. Neither is automatic, and depend on what the DM decides about the mood in the room.
I have found the first case to be extremely awkward in practice. Someone initiates combat, everyone rolls and the guy who initiates ends up going last. The other party members are often reluctant to be the guy who actually shoots first, and the NPCs gain this weird paranoia quality that every time they see a spell being cast they instantly attack with deadly force. It might be how the rules technically work but it often makes for a very clunky scene.
Yes, there are two possible triggers for the start of a combat: the caster begins casting and everyone else leaps into action, or people wait for the spell to be cast and react to it based on what actually happens. Neither is automatic, and depend on what the DM decides about the mood in the room.
I have found the first case to be extremely awkward in practice...
Uh huh. I will generally grant advantage to initiative rolls for the initiating person/group, or even grant surprise if the act is sudden and the attackers win a Deception vs Insight contest. And then, there's no need for the NPCs to leap straight to deadly force on their first turn; options include taking cover, fleeing the scene, Dodge action, Readying an attack if harmful spell is cast, casting buff spells of their own, etc.
Initiative starts before the spell is cast, and surprise granted to the creature casting if they didn’t telegraph their intent beforehand (perception or insight check by other creatures)
Initiative starts before the spell is cast, and surprise granted to the creature casting if they didn’t telegraph their intent beforehand (perception or insight check by other creatures)
That would be an interesting house rule, but my GMs typically obey the RAW, so being aware of the caster or not is what determines surprise - typically, of course, the PCs are operating as a team, and my GMs usually go with the SAC rule for surprise, not the PHB rule, so someone noticing any threat is not surprised, rather than someone who fails to notice a threat being surprised, which means being aware of any party member shuts surprise off. In a situation where that's not really the case, you'd have to discuss with the GM who counts as hostile as who doesn't, but it boils down to are you physically aware of creatures and objects, not are you aware of emotional states. I can see the merit in an insight check, for sure, since it makes sense that with deception you could just convince someone you're not a threat and interact with the surprise rules that way.
Basically any spell that uses any component (V, S, M) is inherently "noticed" by anyone unless you have an ability that allows you to forgo it.
Subtle spell is already a weaker metameric option so allowing a caster to "surprise" an enemy with a spell casting further weakens it so I would have them roll initiative and see where they lie.
Now if they snuck up and had a stealth roll that beat passive perception and THEN cast the spell I would allow them to qualify for surprise but initiative would be rolled as normal.
If the creature was surprised and rolled better than the caster they are still not going to be able to act as they are "Surprised" and the plan still had an advantage towards the players.
One thing I have found that is hugely fun in PF2e is that the GM can call ANY Skill for initiative if they want. This means the Bard who is waxing poetic to the enemy can use Deception/Persuasion for initiative as they used their speech to get the upper hand.
The monk who is flipping down from the ceiling can use acrobatics, the rogue hiding behind the wall can use stealth as initiative, and the Investigator can use History because he recognizes that houses of this style had a flaw where you can force a board to creak by leaning on a wall.
Subtle spell is already a weaker metameric option so allowing a caster to "surprise" an enemy with a spell casting further weakens it
Wait, how do you figure that?
Off topic discussion ahead....but basically thanks to Xanathars spellcasting rules any spell that you cast that has any component (V, S, M) is detectable. So if you use subtle spell on a spell with a M component it is detectable. Because of this there is still very few amount of spells that are worth casting Subtlety. Once you whittle the list down its pretty small and overall most of the spells you can cast without any detection is limited in how useful it actually is IMO.
Suggestion is the one that people say a lot....but you still have to tell them what you want them to do. So if they all of a sudden want to give away their warhorse it doesnt take a genius to figure out the guy who asked you to give away your warhorse cast some magic on you to compel you to do so.
Counterspell is the one people bring up a lot....but you are not going to be facing those level spellcasters very often and when they do start to appear frequently you can pick up Subtle at level 10 which is completely valid IMO.
I would never take it early on though as Quicken, Twin, and the element damage swap are just better at most levels of actual play.
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Hi,
Title says it all. I am unsure if this is a reason to start initiative or not. My gut reaction is "Yes, roll initiative." What can you informative folk tell me?
Thanks in advance!
DM - And In The Darkness, Rot: The Sunless Citadel
DM - Our Little Lives Kept In Equipoise: Curse of Strahd
DM - Misprize Thou Not These Shadows That Belong: The Lost Mines of Phandelver
PC - Azzure - Tyranny of Dragons
Initiative starts even before the spell is cast. The moment a creature has the intent of casting a hostile spell, hostility has been made and initiative must be rolled. After that, surprise is determined if applicable.
It's up the DM to call for initiative rolls whenever they feel it's appropriate. If it were my game, I'd ask myself whether or not faerie fire would start a fight in that particular situation. If so, I'd call for initiative and the player would get to cast whenever it got to their turn. If not, I'd just narrate the consequences.
Yeah, this is the dilemma. The PC seems to want to have an "in-case" scenario - so does faerie fire act as an automatically hostile spell?
DM - And In The Darkness, Rot: The Sunless Citadel
DM - Our Little Lives Kept In Equipoise: Curse of Strahd
DM - Misprize Thou Not These Shadows That Belong: The Lost Mines of Phandelver
PC - Azzure - Tyranny of Dragons
If you have to ask, the answer is yes. Better to roll initiative and not need it because combat doesn't ensue than to not roll it and discover you need it because combat is ensuing.
Think of it this way: Do you think the creatures would become hostile if a bunch of laser sight dots started focusing on them?
It depends very much on the context.
For example there is no hostile intent and therefore no need to roll initiative if. The party go to a farly small room (less than 20ft cube) to discuss their plan on how to eliminate the BBEG once and for all, they know/suspect the BBEG can scry on them so to ensure they are not being overheard the druid casts faerie fire in order to make any invisible sensor visible.
Emrfish is correct in that making a hostile action (starting to cast a hostile spell beginning a weapon attack etc) means initiative is rolled before the spell the actual process is if any creature present would consider the casting of faerie fire a hostile act against them or their allies than you:
Rolling initiative might not result in combat but it is a situation where turn order is important. For example, The party are in the presence of the king and the bard, with true seeing, sees a scrying sensor, being low wisdom he starts to cast faerie fire to point it out to the king. Roll initiative. If the guards roll higher on initiate they would almost certain act to prevent this spell taking place (depending on the party's standing either with am attempt to gag the bard or to straight out attack them), iif the bard goes first and reveals the sensor then things are likely to be far more peaceful.
This is what it says in the PHB:
===========================================================================================
Initiative
Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time.
===========================================================================================
The DM decides if and when he wants to run an encounter with combat.
The casting of any spell (not just Faerie Fire) does not auto-trigger initiative.
Situational. A stranger with weapons (wands count as weapons in a world with offensive magic) shows up and casts a spell on you? Yes, almost definitely this will be taken as a hostile action. A performer in a show that uses illusion magic to conjure magical effects like Dancing Lights and other such effects? Probably not taken as hostile, in my opinion. The exception would be someone versed in spellcasting who knows the offensive capabilities of that spell. Maybe they would take it as hostile.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Someone casting a spell, in a possibly hostile situation, will normally start combat, regardless of what the spell is, because most observers don't know what the spell is and will assume the worst.
Yes, there are two possible triggers for the start of a combat: the caster begins casting and everyone else leaps into action, or people wait for the spell to be cast and react to it based on what actually happens. Neither is automatic, and depend on what the DM decides about the mood in the room.
Both triggers could also be bypassed completely: casting without any visible or audible components (as with subtle spell) could avoid warning anyone during the casting, and some spells have no noticeable effects.
Generally, the player announces intent, then the DM resolves the situation.
In case of someone casting a spell, it depends many factors, for example, did they use verbal or somatic components, and a lot more.
How would you feel if the NPC was pulling the same stunt? If an NPC cast a spell at the party, and they didn't get to react to it?
There is a (long) video with Jeremy Crawford, where he explains the intent behind initiative, surprise, and pretty much anything connected to it:
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
Some one should tell him to write it all down so we don't have to reference a long and obscure video, preferably in some kind of book of rules.
I have found the first case to be extremely awkward in practice. Someone initiates combat, everyone rolls and the guy who initiates ends up going last. The other party members are often reluctant to be the guy who actually shoots first, and the NPCs gain this weird paranoia quality that every time they see a spell being cast they instantly attack with deadly force. It might be how the rules technically work but it often makes for a very clunky scene.
Personally I will just put the instigator automatically at the top of the initiative and everyone else goes after. It's Fair and Balanced© because both sides can do it and it just makes more sense narratively. An exception would be an extremely tense negotiation with borderline hostile creatures that expect to be attacked - in that case I'd go with the RAW. But a lot of interactions aren't like that, and those rules unfortunately make them feel like they are.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Uh huh. I will generally grant advantage to initiative rolls for the initiating person/group, or even grant surprise if the act is sudden and the attackers win a Deception vs Insight contest. And then, there's no need for the NPCs to leap straight to deadly force on their first turn; options include taking cover, fleeing the scene, Dodge action, Readying an attack if harmful spell is cast, casting buff spells of their own, etc.
Initiative starts before the spell is cast, and surprise granted to the creature casting if they didn’t telegraph their intent beforehand (perception or insight check by other creatures)
That would be an interesting house rule, but my GMs typically obey the RAW, so being aware of the caster or not is what determines surprise - typically, of course, the PCs are operating as a team, and my GMs usually go with the SAC rule for surprise, not the PHB rule, so someone noticing any threat is not surprised, rather than someone who fails to notice a threat being surprised, which means being aware of any party member shuts surprise off. In a situation where that's not really the case, you'd have to discuss with the GM who counts as hostile as who doesn't, but it boils down to are you physically aware of creatures and objects, not are you aware of emotional states. I can see the merit in an insight check, for sure, since it makes sense that with deception you could just convince someone you're not a threat and interact with the surprise rules that way.
Basically any spell that uses any component (V, S, M) is inherently "noticed" by anyone unless you have an ability that allows you to forgo it.
Subtle spell is already a weaker metameric option so allowing a caster to "surprise" an enemy with a spell casting further weakens it so I would have them roll initiative and see where they lie.
Now if they snuck up and had a stealth roll that beat passive perception and THEN cast the spell I would allow them to qualify for surprise but initiative would be rolled as normal.
If the creature was surprised and rolled better than the caster they are still not going to be able to act as they are "Surprised" and the plan still had an advantage towards the players.
One thing I have found that is hugely fun in PF2e is that the GM can call ANY Skill for initiative if they want. This means the Bard who is waxing poetic to the enemy can use Deception/Persuasion for initiative as they used their speech to get the upper hand.
The monk who is flipping down from the ceiling can use acrobatics, the rogue hiding behind the wall can use stealth as initiative, and the Investigator can use History because he recognizes that houses of this style had a flaw where you can force a board to creak by leaning on a wall.
Wait, how do you figure that?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Off topic discussion ahead....but basically thanks to Xanathars spellcasting rules any spell that you cast that has any component (V, S, M) is detectable. So if you use subtle spell on a spell with a M component it is detectable. Because of this there is still very few amount of spells that are worth casting Subtlety. Once you whittle the list down its pretty small and overall most of the spells you can cast without any detection is limited in how useful it actually is IMO.
Suggestion is the one that people say a lot....but you still have to tell them what you want them to do. So if they all of a sudden want to give away their warhorse it doesnt take a genius to figure out the guy who asked you to give away your warhorse cast some magic on you to compel you to do so.
Counterspell is the one people bring up a lot....but you are not going to be facing those level spellcasters very often and when they do start to appear frequently you can pick up Subtle at level 10 which is completely valid IMO.
I would never take it early on though as Quicken, Twin, and the element damage swap are just better at most levels of actual play.