I feel it is but wanted to get opinions on that. Sure, characters get it in level 17 the earliest. But there is still a kind of balance in high levels and I think Wish breaks that. Just being able to cast Simulcarum every morning without need for time or components is extremely powerful. First, from a mechanical point: the caster just doubled his ability to cast spells (two instead of one per turn) and has double spell slots levels 1 through 8 at his disposal. In addition one player now practically steers two powerful characters. That might impact heavily on gaming time and the fun of other players. Next to that the caster may chose to cast any other level 8 spell or below, summoning, castles, temples, tsunamis or whatever with a word. There are spells that are quite a bigger think if you dont need 10 minutes or an hour to cast them but have them in effect just then...
I am fine with the spell if it is tied to an artifact (like ring of three wishes) but as an every day asset I think it is not at all balanced. Sure it probably is not supposed to be but that does not change the fact that, starting level 17, there are characters with the Wish spell and then there is the rest.
So what do you think? Should a DM disallow the Wish spell?
I think it's up to the group as a whole. If the player who has the wish spell is intentionally breaking the game, it's probably not going to be fun for anyone other than him/herself. I mean, taking advantage of something like that after every long rest while it makes sense to do to maximize your abilities is going to make the game boring/not fun for the other players and the DM. The player with the wish spell has to realize this and accept that the game isn't just about them, and their actions have an effect on the other players at the table.
Also, the wish being granted is within the DM's purview, and there are consequences to casting it regularly
You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the GM as precisely as possible. The GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.
The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that stress, each time you cast a spell until you finish a long rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can't be reduced or prevented in any way. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn't 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days. Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress.
So if you use it for anything other than duplicating another spell, you have a 33% chance that you can never cast wish again.
No, wish is not too powerful. Yes, wish is a spell that requires a bit of DM intervention to smooth out potential abuses (with what counts as a potential abuse being determined by the group's play style and preferences).
I'll edit this post later to elaborate, as I don't have the time right now.
You have to define exactly what you mean by "too powerful" when talking about characters that can go toe-to-toe with archdemons and demigods.
I think it's fair to trade a 9th level spell slot to duplicate a 1st to 8th level spell. Yes, bypassing the components and casting time of certain spells is great, but you're giving up the opportunity to use Time Stop, Shapechange, Invulnerability, True Polymorph, Mass Heal, Prismatic Wall, 9th level Counterspell/Dispel Magic, among other things.
You have to define exactly what you mean by "too powerful" when talking about characters that can go toe-to-toe with archdemons and demigods.
I thought I did ;-)
My Main concern is, that Wish has the capacity to make other characters obsolete or at least make them feel they are. Take one of the mightiest clerics you find states He can summon a great temple as Bastion against the approaching demon Horde. Goes the Wizard: wait a few seconds. And there it is. And this, while his Simulcarum, that He created the day before, waits nearby with all spell slots loaded up until Level 8. Sure you are unable to cast another level 9 spell that day. But the versatility alone is huge even If you disregard that you dont need time or components.
And the opinion that it is all Well If and when the DM culls the Player constantly. This kind of underlines that the Wish spell unbalances the game and/or group by RAW.
My Main concern is, that Wish has the capacity to make other characters obsolete or at least make them feel they are. Take one of the mightiest clerics you find states He can summon a great temple as Bastion against the approaching demon Horde. Goes the Wizard: wait a few seconds. And there it is. And this, while his Simulcarum, that He created the day before, waits nearby with all spell slots loaded up until Level 8. Sure you are unable to cast another level 9 spell that day. But the versatility alone is huge even If you disregard that you dont need time or components.
And the opinion that it is all Well If and when the DM culls the Player constantly. This kind of underlines that the Wish spell unbalances the game and/or group by RAW.
I'm glad I asked anyways because my initial impression was that you were concerned about the spell's power, but it sounds more like you're concerned about it stepping on tother class's toes.
Being able to duplicate a cleric spell once per day doesn't make the cleric obsolete, just like an arcana cleric doesn't obsolete a wizard just because they get to pick some wizard spells, and neither does a Bard when they pick Fireball with Magical Secrets. The wizard is arguably taking a hit for the party by giving up their most powerful spell slot just to bypass the casting time on a 7th level spell somebody else could've cast. Considering how precious 6th-9th level slots are, I would think the cleric would be grateful for the wizard's generosity, and for the fact that they get to keep their 7th level slot to continue to do the things the wizard can't.
Editing my earlier post now seems an inefficient way to communicate on the topics I'd like to, so I'm instead replying to a few specific statements individually to discuss my views of the wish spell. I'll be grouping the quoted passages out of order to keep the context of my comments as clear as possible.
...Just being able to cast Simulcarum every morning without need for time or components is extremely powerful. First, from a mechanical point: the caster just doubled his ability to cast spells (two instead of one per turn) and has double spell slots levels 1 through 8 at his disposal. In addition one player now practically steers two powerful characters. That might impact heavily on gaming time and the fun of other players.
...And this, while his Simulcarum, that He created the day before, waits nearby with all spell slots loaded up until Level 8.
These comments speak to the simulacrum spell, not to wish. I say that because all of the complaints made here are true when casting the simulacrum spell normally, and the solution in either case is quite simply to not include the simulacrum spell if you find its effects to be problematic - there are plenty of other cool 7th level spells for players to take, and other cool effects to use their wish spell on, so they likely won't even begrudge the DM asking them "Please don't use that spell."
My Main concern is, that Wish has the capacity to make other characters obsolete or at least make them feel they are.
It really should take more than a 1/day "I can do your stuff" effect to make another character feel obsolete... but that is a thing that really depends on the players themselves. Both in the sense that each player will have their own tolerance level for another character in the party being able to do the things that their character is good at, and in the sense that the players should all be working together to make everyone feel useful (i.e. the wizard shouldn't insist upon having and using the knock spell when another character in the party is an expert with thieves tools because that is deliberately stepping on the other player's toes, and the wizard shouldn't be using their wishes to step on other party members' toes either).
So unless you go full-bore and remove every spell from the game that has the capacity to step on another class' or character's toes, it doesn't make much sense to toss out wish on those grounds - since unlike those other shtick-stealing spells it can actually be used in other ways.
And the opinion that it is all Well If and when the DM culls the Player constantly. This kind of underlines that the Wish spell unbalances the game and/or group by RAW.
It's not about culling the player constantly - it's about making it so the obstacles encountered are varied enough that the solutions also vary. It's just like using monsters with different ranges of AC, different resistances, immunities or vulnerabilities, different forms of attack that deal different types of damage and different special effects.
You throw in some high-level spellcasting creatures that can use wishes of their own against the party, and as a result wish is balanced. Or you set up challenges that lead the player of a wish-casting character to go outside the basic effect of duplicating a lower level spell and risking permanent loss of the spell, and as a result wish is balanced.
The one thing you don't do is the one thing you don't do with any other spell, class feature, feat, or skill a player might choose for their character: let it always work without any kind of complication or feeling of cost because of some sense that to use everything the game includes is inherently unfair unless only the players get to do it.
Considering that the mightiest clerics get a miracle once a week without Wish restrictions? Might not be the best example here.
Excellent point. Plus arcana clerics can learn Wish too.
A good point indeed. Imagine the Level 19 Cleric asking for a miracle to simulate a Cleric Spell. The whole group chewing on their fingernails: will he Roll a 19 or or less on a d100 to Do it?
Then - meep meep!, Like the Roadrunner - comes the Wizard (or Bard or Arcane Cleric or whatever) and Just does it. Not once per week. Not needing a Roll (no matter If level 20). Not Limited to Spells on your list. Sure, you can choose a Level 9 Cleric spell for your miracle. If it works. Once a week. But all in all, a mere Spell lets the probably coolest Feat of the Cleric Look Kind of meh. And the Wizard has great Feats too. Being able to cast Shield as every reaction and Misty step as every bonus action is not so Bad.
And the possibility of a Cleric of a certain deity being able to get the Wish spell Changes nothing regarding the distinction between those who have it and those who dont.
I will elaborate a bit more when I have more time.
Then - meep meep!, Like the Roadrunner - comes the Wizard (or Bard or Arcane Cleric or whatever) and Just does it. Not once per week. Not needing a Roll (no matter If level 20). Not Limited to Spells on your list. Sure, you can choose a Level 9 Cleric spell for your miracle.
Divine Intervention isn't limited to cleric spells. Mephista's point is that a 20th level cleric can ask for anything without consequences once a week. A wizard that uses Wish for anything beyond replicating lower level spells risks never using Wish again (and also suffers a severe Strength reduction.)
Sure He can ask for anything. What he gets is up to the DM though (in contrast to Wish where the Caster chooses the effect). The wording:
"The DM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate."
sounds to me that the Intervention is more limited than wish as Cleric domain spells are specifically mentioned. But that surely is up to the DM in the End. Again thus is only one example. I read the rules of Wish as the more powerful and versatile tool even in that comparison.
Sure He can ask for anything. What he gets is up to the DM though (in contrast to Wish where the Caster chooses the effect). The wording:
"The DM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate."
sounds to me that the Intervention is more limited than wish as Cleric domain spells are specifically mentioned. But that surely is up to the DM in the End. Again thus is only one example. I read the rules of Wish as the more powerful and versatile tool even in that comparison.
That's no different than the GM being able to determine how a non-duplicated spell function of Wish works. And without the 33% chance of burn out.
In either case, my point was actually this - your proposal that the Wish spell is broken because it destroys high level balance is a misnomer, because its clearly built into the assumption of what high level characters do. The game is already balanced around the assumption that Wish, and similar effects, are in play. This is what high level play is intended to be.
Simulacrum is borked. That's a spell that needs to be watched carefully. But Wish? Not so much.
EDIT - also, at level 20, "the mightest of clerics" don't need to roll a percentile die. Might be later than a wizard, but still something to keep in mind.
Sure He can ask for anything. What he gets is up to the DM though (in contrast to Wish where the Caster chooses the effect).
The rule on Divine Intervention leads with "The DM chooses the nature of the intervention." There's emphasis on this. It's 100% up to them. It then suggests that using a cleric spell for the miracle is apropos. That doesn't mean they still can't deliver some ad hoc effect if there isn't a cleric spell that'll quite solve the cleric's situation.
Here's the thing: Clerics are the instruments of the gods on the Material Plane. They advance the deity's agenda, serve as living proof of their power and bring in worshipers. A 20th level cleric that's been faithful is a huge asset. It's in the deity's best interest to deliver a useful miracle, especially if the cleric's current adventure benefits them (like, say, stopping demons from spreading into the Material Plane.)
Now contrast that with Wish:
State your wish to the GM as precisely as possible. The GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.
Everything about this is a gamble. While the caster gets to make the request, the DM is encouraged to look for flaws in their wording, and subvert the wish's purpose proportionally to how ambitious the wish is.
Divine Intervention, when it succeeds, should give the cleric what they need. Wish is geared to give the wizard what they want in the worst way possible.
Divine Intervention, when it succeeds, should give the cleric what they need. Wish is geared to give the wizard what they want in the worst way possible.
Exactly! It's more fun that way (for the DM and the cleric's player, at least).
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On the difference to Divine Intervention (how I understand it): As written repeatedly the effects of Divine Intervention are up to the DM. This is made more concrete by stating that effects of spells on the Domain’s Spell List are ok. This has to mean something. And what it means is that the Feat is not supposed to have an effect of a spell that is not on the Cleric’s spell list or just anything. Because if it was supposed to do anything else – like simulating spells not on the spell list or do anything different entirely – why write that an effect of a spell on the domain list is ok? Sure, a DM can do what he wants and ignore that, but again: if by the rules Divine Intervention was supposed to do anything (quite) different from simulating the effect of a Cleric spell, why describe it the way it is.
In contrast, Wish has no such restriction. The restriction is that you are not allowed to simulate the effect of a level 9 spell. So that is a plus of Divine Intervention.
And all the twisting stuff cited above regarding Wishes is only true if you do not use it to simulate another spell or “use” one of the effects laid out in the spell’s description. No spellcaster being able to cast Wish will use it for anything else than simulating other spells if he is not insanely desperate. The 1/3 chance to lose Wish alone will make him think hard about ever using it for anything else than simulating spells. And when simulating spells he choses exactly what effect Wish will have. By the rules the DM is not supposed to twist that. Again: a DM can do anything but again he is not supposed to by the rules. The simulating spells effect is what I feel makes the spell unbalanced.
Somebody wrote that this do anything at any given time is kind of included in the balancing of classes and the game. Sure you can assume the designers had everything in view including that but I don’t see it regarding the Wish spell. Level 9 casters are very powerful without the Wish spell.
The most uber effect is tied to using Wish to cast Simulacrum. In one turn. Without material components. I realized that when bringing an old 2 edition Wardancer to 5e for fun. When reaching level 17 you could start every day with summoning a Simulacrum of yourself. Because of the elf’s meditation only taking four hours it would even be able to attune to some spare items. Sure you might say that this is a problem of the simulacrum spell. But I think even for level 17+ characters spending 1,500 GP on components repeatedly is a stretch. And 12 hours is quite some time to cast a spell. But some of Simulacrum’s problems surely are present if cast normally. I will know better when I see it in play which I did not yet. But the real problem starts when Wish is available. If the Caster has one quiet day and two rests he can start a day filled with action with a “fresh” simulacrum AND his Wish spell. So what he could do is have the Simulacrum burn through all his spells levels 1 through 8. Then he could use Wish to create a new Simulacrum – even during a combat. This Simulacrum could then burn through his level 1 through 8 spells, so that finally the character itself could use his level 1 through 8 spells. That is extremely powerful, extremely time consuming and sounds extremely frustrating & boring for all other players. But that is not the only thing that concerns me regarding Wish.
One defining element of spellcasters is that – while being very versatile - they still (a) have a limited list that they are allowed to choose spells from. The list is long or short depending on your class but no matter how long, no class may cast any spell and all classes have spells that are their “thing” and (b) the caster is not able to cast just any spell that is on his list but has to choose, when levelling up or at least when resting what he will be able to do. And this list of castable spells is rather short even for wizards. 25 in level 20 and that’s it. So ideally a group with more than one caster coordinates so that every caster kind of has his share of responsibilities, his thing. Now Wish breaks all that. Not only is there nothing left that is exclusive to other classes (except level 9 spells) but the Wisher is now able to do anything at any given time. Preparation is now much less of an issue. Sure, it’s only once a day. But Slots level 7 and up are a rare asset anyway. So starting level 17 there are now the (powerful) casters without Wish that are still better prepared for some things and not so well for others and who have a limited pool of spells they can use. And then there are the Wishers that are prepared for anything as long as they have Wish and practically no limits on their choice of spells. This would be kickass by itself: having a spell that can be all spells: the Joker card. But that’s not it. Where others need time to do something /and or (expensive) components, where they need hands, the Wisher needs a word. Timing a Tsunami? Need a Druid Grove on the fly? Wanna cast Forbiddance in the thick of a battle against undead without needing to spend 1,000 GP and in the process catching the undead in the middle of a 40,000 square feet death zone? Wanna Resurrect somebody in the middle of a combat? Wish can do that. And the guy with all those cool spells on his list cannot. And that is bad. It kind of steals other players’ thunder. I played with a couple of people in my time. And I did not meet a lot of players enjoying to be left behind. And that is the feeling the Wish spell confers if it is a daily commodity. At least to me it does.
My guess is, about every caster able to get Wish will get it at the earliest opportunity. And if this is the case this alone would show that balancing with other choices given at that time (other level 9 spells) is off. But everybody else seems to be very comfortable with the Wish spell as something some characters may do every day in high levels 😉
My guess is, about every caster able to get Wish will get it at the earliest opportunity. And if this is the case this alone would show that balancing with other choices given at that time (other level 9 spells) is off. But everybody else seems to be very comfortable with the Wish spell as something some characters may do every day in high levels 😉
That players are frequently going to choose a particular choice does not inherently mean that choice is not balanced well enough with other choices. Yes, it can be an indicator of an issue when there are two options that are similar and one gets chosen over the other in the majority of cases (i.e. two spells that provide a damaging effect, or two spells that inflict a condition, and one of them being chosen more often than the other), but when the effects of the spell being chosen have no similarity to the effects of spells being left for later choices, or unchosen entirely, all that can be said is that the effects of that spell are preferable - which isn't synonymous with unbalanced.
For example, players that can will often take counterspell as one of their first 3rd level spells. That doesn't prove it to unbalanced, just appealing because it does something special. But then there are fireball and lightning bolt which get chosen more frequently than other damage-dealing spells of the same level, which does highlight that they are (deliberately) more potent than those other spells.
This has to mean something. And what it means is that the Feat is not supposed to have an effect of a spell that is not on the Cleric’s spell list or just anything.
Umm... with all due respect, I think you're misunderstanding things here. That's not what the power says at all. The player describes what kind of assistance they need and implore the god. The GM chooses how that effect manifests, and suggests using spells as a guideline, not as a hard limit, and more of a thematic consideration so that there's no doubt this is a divine intervention.
If a cleric PC asks their god to destroy an enemy army before them, then the god will grant that wish. HOW that happens depends on the GM - maybe a multitude of fireballs rain down from the heavens, maybe celestial beings show up and kill them all, maybe plants strangle everyone, maybe disease spreads. It can accomplish the equivalent of a meteor swarm here, just flavored differently. Asking for hiding you from the sight of monsters might involve illusions, or it might not, but you'll still be hidden with absolute certainty.
Anything you can ask for with Wish? You can get with Divine Intervention. The end results are always going to be the same, just a different method of getting there.
The most uber effect is tied to using Wish to cast Simulacrum ..... Sure you might say that this is a problem of the simulacrum spell. But I think even for level 17+ characters spending 1,500 GP on components repeatedly is a stretch.
But it is the Simulacrum spell. Your example about Simulacrum + Wish here is just speeding up the casting of Simulacrum. That's it. Everything else is just the Simulacrum itself.
And hun? Given how worthless gold is in 5e and the expected treasure payout? Repeatedly spending 1.5K is actually easily something an adventurer can do. At high levels, you're bleeding gold because you literally have nothing better to do with it. Parties pool their gold to let the party's assassin buy all the purple worm poison they can just because there is literally nothing better to do with all the money. Expected treasure from levels 11-16 will be about 8.5K. Expected treasure from levels 17-20 is 32K. 40 thousand gold for 27 Simulacrums over the course of adventures. That's more than enough to accomplish the plot.
At low levels, gold matters because its necessary to get the better armors. Once you get the best non-magical armor, gold becomes nothing more than meaningless window dressing even as it piles up.
I also feel compelled to point out that most gamers I know consider this to be a bad use of Wish. The whole point of Wish is the on-the-spot flexibility. While you might be able to effectively double up your spell slots using Simularcrum, it also locks your spell selection in place and encourages the GM to just up the difficulty of encounters by having more monsters to offset the extra party member, for a net zero gain. Or someone just cast "Dispel." Sounds good in on paper, but in execution, less so. Trying to cast this mid combat generally just results in an entire round of the simulacrum getting destroyed since it lacks your magic items or prepared defenses.
The bigger problem here is spotlight shifting - having one player with effectively two characters is annoying as @#$. Double the turns before others act, double the tracking, double the... you get the point. And that's entirely on bringing the Simulacrum into combat, not dependent upon Wish in the slightest. Simulacrum is just a disruptive spell for many games, no matter if you cast it normally or with Wish. Wish makes it worse, but that spell is bad on its own.
One defining element of spellcasters is that – while being very versatile - they still (a) have a limited list that they are allowed to choose spells from.
....
And this list of castable spells is rather short even for wizards. 25 in level 20 and that’s it.
.....
Now Wish breaks all that. Not only is there nothing left that is exclusive to other classes (except level 9 spells) but the Wisher is now able to do anything at any given time. Preparation is now much less of an issue. Sure, it’s only once a day. But Slots level 7 and up are a rare asset anyway.
Spell versatility is a defining feature of the wizard. Jack-of-all-trades is a defining feature of the bard. The Wish spell makes absolute perfect sense for these two here. Its completely within theme here. Sorcerer? I argue that while less appropriate for a dragon, storm or shadow sorcerer, it fits for the Wild Magic or Divine Soul sorcerers; the former specializes in a wide variety of effects going off that they can't reproduce with their spell list, and the latter can use it to reproduce a kind of divine intervention effect.
A wizard gets 25 spells prepared....plus cantrips, rituals, feats, racial abilities and magic items (either staffs or scrolls). You can get up to around 80 spells prepared with the right selection of items and enough time.
Right now, you are arguing that Wish is a bad spell because of one annoying interaction with a different spell (one acknowledged to be problematic by many) and because you consider limited spell selection to be a balancing feature of all spell casters. Now, let me say that, in my experience, this has not happened. I've played with level 14 transmuter wizard and Life Cleric in the same party. Does the ability of the Transmuter's Stone negate all the healing abilities of the cleric? Not at all. In fact, the cleric welcomed it - back up healers are always good if something happened to the main one, and meanwhile the Transmuter got to focus on doing other neat tricks with their Stone instead of once-a-day wasting it on something another party member was already doing.
Wish isn't that different. Sure, it can do lots of things. But that's exactly why its a once a day trump card. You don't rely on your trump card for day to day operations; you rely on the actual person who's regular job it is to do those things. No single level 9 spell is going to outdo an entire class that can do those things. See, here's a neat side effect of bounded accuracy. Even at level 17-20, you're relying heavily on spells like Fireball and Banishment. Likewise, you rely on your cleric or druid or bard to get you back on your feet using things like Mass Healing Word or Song of Rest, and save that Heal for desperate times. This flexibility doesn't step on people's toes, given the very limited resources Wish takes. Especially when, just as likely, you have to burn Wish in order to Mind Blank your team's Barbarian from becoming Dominated while fighting that Mind Flayer Lich.
My guess is, about every caster able to get Wish will get it at the earliest opportunity.
I've seen plenty of Wizards put it in their spell book (because no reason not to get one of the best spells), but I've just as often seen wizards not PREPARE the spell. Lots of times, I've seen evokers take meteor swarm in preparation for anti-army battles, and there's a number of times I've seen people go for Foresight and buff their party members, or True Polymorph. Ah, True Polymorph is fun - I had a friend with a sorcerer that True Polymorphed themselves into a real dragon, while then using the spell to make a bunch of elementals as an army.
The only level 20 bard I've seen was the one I played, and she was a Lore "word mage," and specialized in the different Power Word (and thunder-based) spells. I used my magical secrets to yank things like Command, get both tier 9 Power Word spells, Divine Word and Word of Recall. Wish was never taken at any point in time. Granted, this was a highly specialized role play character, but just goes to show that you can't assume that the "best" spells will always be taken either.
Versatility is nice. But you can't ignore that specialization is very handy to have as well.
I feel it is but wanted to get opinions on that. Sure, characters get it in level 17 the earliest. But there is still a kind of balance in high levels and I think Wish breaks that. Just being able to cast Simulcarum every morning without need for time or components is extremely powerful. First, from a mechanical point: the caster just doubled his ability to cast spells (two instead of one per turn) and has double spell slots levels 1 through 8 at his disposal. In addition one player now practically steers two powerful characters. That might impact heavily on gaming time and the fun of other players. Next to that the caster may chose to cast any other level 8 spell or below, summoning, castles, temples, tsunamis or whatever with a word. There are spells that are quite a bigger think if you dont need 10 minutes or an hour to cast them but have them in effect just then...
I am fine with the spell if it is tied to an artifact (like ring of three wishes) but as an every day asset I think it is not at all balanced. Sure it probably is not supposed to be but that does not change the fact that, starting level 17, there are characters with the Wish spell and then there is the rest.
So what do you think? Should a DM disallow the Wish spell?
I think it's up to the group as a whole. If the player who has the wish spell is intentionally breaking the game, it's probably not going to be fun for anyone other than him/herself. I mean, taking advantage of something like that after every long rest while it makes sense to do to maximize your abilities is going to make the game boring/not fun for the other players and the DM. The player with the wish spell has to realize this and accept that the game isn't just about them, and their actions have an effect on the other players at the table.
Also, the wish being granted is within the DM's purview, and there are consequences to casting it regularly
So if you use it for anything other than duplicating another spell, you have a 33% chance that you can never cast wish again.
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
No, wish is not too powerful. Yes, wish is a spell that requires a bit of DM intervention to smooth out potential abuses (with what counts as a potential abuse being determined by the group's play style and preferences).
I'll edit this post later to elaborate, as I don't have the time right now.
You have to define exactly what you mean by "too powerful" when talking about characters that can go toe-to-toe with archdemons and demigods.
I think it's fair to trade a 9th level spell slot to duplicate a 1st to 8th level spell. Yes, bypassing the components and casting time of certain spells is great, but you're giving up the opportunity to use Time Stop, Shapechange, Invulnerability, True Polymorph, Mass Heal, Prismatic Wall, 9th level Counterspell/Dispel Magic, among other things.
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Sure He can ask for anything. What he gets is up to the DM though (in contrast to Wish where the Caster chooses the effect). The wording:
"The DM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate."
sounds to me that the Intervention is more limited than wish as Cleric domain spells are specifically mentioned. But that surely is up to the DM in the End. Again thus is only one example. I read the rules of Wish as the more powerful and versatile tool even in that comparison.
The rule on Divine Intervention leads with "The DM chooses the nature of the intervention." There's emphasis on this. It's 100% up to them. It then suggests that using a cleric spell for the miracle is apropos. That doesn't mean they still can't deliver some ad hoc effect if there isn't a cleric spell that'll quite solve the cleric's situation.
Here's the thing: Clerics are the instruments of the gods on the Material Plane. They advance the deity's agenda, serve as living proof of their power and bring in worshipers. A 20th level cleric that's been faithful is a huge asset. It's in the deity's best interest to deliver a useful miracle, especially if the cleric's current adventure benefits them (like, say, stopping demons from spreading into the Material Plane.)
Now contrast that with Wish:
Everything about this is a gamble. While the caster gets to make the request, the DM is encouraged to look for flaws in their wording, and subvert the wish's purpose proportionally to how ambitious the wish is.
Divine Intervention, when it succeeds, should give the cleric what they need. Wish is geared to give the wizard what they want in the worst way possible.
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Now some more thoughts with a bit more time.
On the difference to Divine Intervention (how I understand it): As written repeatedly the effects of Divine Intervention are up to the DM. This is made more concrete by stating that effects of spells on the Domain’s Spell List are ok. This has to mean something. And what it means is that the Feat is not supposed to have an effect of a spell that is not on the Cleric’s spell list or just anything. Because if it was supposed to do anything else – like simulating spells not on the spell list or do anything different entirely – why write that an effect of a spell on the domain list is ok? Sure, a DM can do what he wants and ignore that, but again: if by the rules Divine Intervention was supposed to do anything (quite) different from simulating the effect of a Cleric spell, why describe it the way it is.
In contrast, Wish has no such restriction. The restriction is that you are not allowed to simulate the effect of a level 9 spell. So that is a plus of Divine Intervention.
And all the twisting stuff cited above regarding Wishes is only true if you do not use it to simulate another spell or “use” one of the effects laid out in the spell’s description. No spellcaster being able to cast Wish will use it for anything else than simulating other spells if he is not insanely desperate. The 1/3 chance to lose Wish alone will make him think hard about ever using it for anything else than simulating spells. And when simulating spells he choses exactly what effect Wish will have. By the rules the DM is not supposed to twist that. Again: a DM can do anything but again he is not supposed to by the rules. The simulating spells effect is what I feel makes the spell unbalanced.
Somebody wrote that this do anything at any given time is kind of included in the balancing of classes and the game. Sure you can assume the designers had everything in view including that but I don’t see it regarding the Wish spell. Level 9 casters are very powerful without the Wish spell.
The most uber effect is tied to using Wish to cast Simulacrum. In one turn. Without material components. I realized that when bringing an old 2 edition Wardancer to 5e for fun. When reaching level 17 you could start every day with summoning a Simulacrum of yourself. Because of the elf’s meditation only taking four hours it would even be able to attune to some spare items. Sure you might say that this is a problem of the simulacrum spell. But I think even for level 17+ characters spending 1,500 GP on components repeatedly is a stretch. And 12 hours is quite some time to cast a spell. But some of Simulacrum’s problems surely are present if cast normally. I will know better when I see it in play which I did not yet. But the real problem starts when Wish is available. If the Caster has one quiet day and two rests he can start a day filled with action with a “fresh” simulacrum AND his Wish spell. So what he could do is have the Simulacrum burn through all his spells levels 1 through 8. Then he could use Wish to create a new Simulacrum – even during a combat. This Simulacrum could then burn through his level 1 through 8 spells, so that finally the character itself could use his level 1 through 8 spells. That is extremely powerful, extremely time consuming and sounds extremely frustrating & boring for all other players. But that is not the only thing that concerns me regarding Wish.
One defining element of spellcasters is that – while being very versatile - they still (a) have a limited list that they are allowed to choose spells from. The list is long or short depending on your class but no matter how long, no class may cast any spell and all classes have spells that are their “thing” and (b) the caster is not able to cast just any spell that is on his list but has to choose, when levelling up or at least when resting what he will be able to do. And this list of castable spells is rather short even for wizards. 25 in level 20 and that’s it. So ideally a group with more than one caster coordinates so that every caster kind of has his share of responsibilities, his thing. Now Wish breaks all that. Not only is there nothing left that is exclusive to other classes (except level 9 spells) but the Wisher is now able to do anything at any given time. Preparation is now much less of an issue. Sure, it’s only once a day. But Slots level 7 and up are a rare asset anyway. So starting level 17 there are now the (powerful) casters without Wish that are still better prepared for some things and not so well for others and who have a limited pool of spells they can use. And then there are the Wishers that are prepared for anything as long as they have Wish and practically no limits on their choice of spells. This would be kickass by itself: having a spell that can be all spells: the Joker card. But that’s not it. Where others need time to do something /and or (expensive) components, where they need hands, the Wisher needs a word. Timing a Tsunami? Need a Druid Grove on the fly? Wanna cast Forbiddance in the thick of a battle against undead without needing to spend 1,000 GP and in the process catching the undead in the middle of a 40,000 square feet death zone? Wanna Resurrect somebody in the middle of a combat? Wish can do that. And the guy with all those cool spells on his list cannot. And that is bad. It kind of steals other players’ thunder. I played with a couple of people in my time. And I did not meet a lot of players enjoying to be left behind. And that is the feeling the Wish spell confers if it is a daily commodity. At least to me it does.
My guess is, about every caster able to get Wish will get it at the earliest opportunity. And if this is the case this alone would show that balancing with other choices given at that time (other level 9 spells) is off. But everybody else seems to be very comfortable with the Wish spell as something some characters may do every day in high levels 😉
But it is the Simulacrum spell. Your example about Simulacrum + Wish here is just speeding up the casting of Simulacrum. That's it. Everything else is just the Simulacrum itself.
And hun? Given how worthless gold is in 5e and the expected treasure payout? Repeatedly spending 1.5K is actually easily something an adventurer can do. At high levels, you're bleeding gold because you literally have nothing better to do with it. Parties pool their gold to let the party's assassin buy all the purple worm poison they can just because there is literally nothing better to do with all the money. Expected treasure from levels 11-16 will be about 8.5K. Expected treasure from levels 17-20 is 32K. 40 thousand gold for 27 Simulacrums over the course of adventures. That's more than enough to accomplish the plot.
At low levels, gold matters because its necessary to get the better armors. Once you get the best non-magical armor, gold becomes nothing more than meaningless window dressing even as it piles up.
I also feel compelled to point out that most gamers I know consider this to be a bad use of Wish. The whole point of Wish is the on-the-spot flexibility. While you might be able to effectively double up your spell slots using Simularcrum, it also locks your spell selection in place and encourages the GM to just up the difficulty of encounters by having more monsters to offset the extra party member, for a net zero gain. Or someone just cast "Dispel." Sounds good in on paper, but in execution, less so. Trying to cast this mid combat generally just results in an entire round of the simulacrum getting destroyed since it lacks your magic items or prepared defenses.
The bigger problem here is spotlight shifting - having one player with effectively two characters is annoying as @#$. Double the turns before others act, double the tracking, double the... you get the point. And that's entirely on bringing the Simulacrum into combat, not dependent upon Wish in the slightest. Simulacrum is just a disruptive spell for many games, no matter if you cast it normally or with Wish. Wish makes it worse, but that spell is bad on its own.
Spell versatility is a defining feature of the wizard. Jack-of-all-trades is a defining feature of the bard. The Wish spell makes absolute perfect sense for these two here. Its completely within theme here. Sorcerer? I argue that while less appropriate for a dragon, storm or shadow sorcerer, it fits for the Wild Magic or Divine Soul sorcerers; the former specializes in a wide variety of effects going off that they can't reproduce with their spell list, and the latter can use it to reproduce a kind of divine intervention effect.
A wizard gets 25 spells prepared....plus cantrips, rituals, feats, racial abilities and magic items (either staffs or scrolls). You can get up to around 80 spells prepared with the right selection of items and enough time.
Right now, you are arguing that Wish is a bad spell because of one annoying interaction with a different spell (one acknowledged to be problematic by many) and because you consider limited spell selection to be a balancing feature of all spell casters. Now, let me say that, in my experience, this has not happened. I've played with level 14 transmuter wizard and Life Cleric in the same party. Does the ability of the Transmuter's Stone negate all the healing abilities of the cleric? Not at all. In fact, the cleric welcomed it - back up healers are always good if something happened to the main one, and meanwhile the Transmuter got to focus on doing other neat tricks with their Stone instead of once-a-day wasting it on something another party member was already doing.
Wish isn't that different. Sure, it can do lots of things. But that's exactly why its a once a day trump card. You don't rely on your trump card for day to day operations; you rely on the actual person who's regular job it is to do those things. No single level 9 spell is going to outdo an entire class that can do those things. See, here's a neat side effect of bounded accuracy. Even at level 17-20, you're relying heavily on spells like Fireball and Banishment. Likewise, you rely on your cleric or druid or bard to get you back on your feet using things like Mass Healing Word or Song of Rest, and save that Heal for desperate times. This flexibility doesn't step on people's toes, given the very limited resources Wish takes. Especially when, just as likely, you have to burn Wish in order to Mind Blank your team's Barbarian from becoming Dominated while fighting that Mind Flayer Lich.
I've seen plenty of Wizards put it in their spell book (because no reason not to get one of the best spells), but I've just as often seen wizards not PREPARE the spell. Lots of times, I've seen evokers take meteor swarm in preparation for anti-army battles, and there's a number of times I've seen people go for Foresight and buff their party members, or True Polymorph. Ah, True Polymorph is fun - I had a friend with a sorcerer that True Polymorphed themselves into a real dragon, while then using the spell to make a bunch of elementals as an army.
The only level 20 bard I've seen was the one I played, and she was a Lore "word mage," and specialized in the different Power Word (and thunder-based) spells. I used my magical secrets to yank things like Command, get both tier 9 Power Word spells, Divine Word and Word of Recall. Wish was never taken at any point in time. Granted, this was a highly specialized role play character, but just goes to show that you can't assume that the "best" spells will always be taken either.
Versatility is nice. But you can't ignore that specialization is very handy to have as well.