Smite can only be triggered when the paladin actually hits. If shield prevents an attack from hitting then the hit NEVER happened and smite is impossible.
Shield also can only be triggered when the attacker actually hits, so I'm not sure what point you think you're making.
"If you’re unsure when a reaction occurs in relation to its trigger, here’s the rule: the reaction happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise."
The reaction happens AFTER its trigger completes. On a possible hit, shield can be cast or not. If shield is cast then the hit may retroactively becomes a miss. If shield is not cast then the hit stands. The trigger for smite is a HIT while the trigger for shield is a POSSIBLE hit that could be canceled by the effect of the shield spell.
100% incorrect. The trigger for shield is not a possible hit, it is a hit; the trigger for Divine Smite is exactly the same thing.
Waiting for the trigger to complete for smite is waiting to determine whether a hit actually occurred or not. That is RAW based on the Xanathar's quote. If an attack ACTUALLY hits then the paladin can use smite. If an attack does not hit then smite is not possible.
If an attack actually hits, that is the point at which the attacker and defender simultaneously decide whether or not to Divine Smite or to cast shield, respectively. Their triggers are the same.
The aspect that you seem to be missing is that a "hit" does not actually occur until AFTER any abilites that could mitigate that hit have been resolved (i.e. the trigger completes) - until those are resolved the "hit" is just a possible or potential hit. AFTER resolving the effect of shield or similar abilities THEN it is known whether the possible hit is actually a hit or a miss. At this point the trigger for smite is complete (not before) and the paladin can choose to smite or not knowing that the attack WAS a hit or not.
Again, 100% incorrect. If that were true, no one could ever cast shield, because it's a reaction spell that requires a real, bona fide hit in order to cast it.
P.S. Anyway, that is how I run it and I think it is supported by RAW. I also don't like making players feel bad by forcing them to waste resources when that is clearly (to me) not the intended use of smite.
It is not supported by RAW. Your position requires that the trigger for shield be "you are about to be hit by an attack" or "you could potentially be hit by an attack," but it isn't. It's "you are hit by an attack." The fact that both the spell and the class feature decisions happen at precisely the same time was an ambiguity that the designers clearly recognized well enough to write something into Xanathar's Guide about it, and Xanathar's Guide provides guidance that will allow the end result of your baseless position almost all the time. You don't have to invent fake rules to avoid "making players feel bad." The actual rules almost always do that just fine.
As a reaction, shield turns a "hit" into a "miss". It's not explicitly called out as such, and it doesn't need to be. The paladin hasn't actually made contact with their weapon, so the conditions for Divine Smite haven't been met.
Divine Smite
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or a fiend, to a maximum of 6d8.
If there's no base weapon damage, then there can be no additional radiant weapon damage. We're not talking about damage nullification. We're talking about an attack not actually connecting when it otherwise would. If you don't get to roll damage at all, then Divine Smite cannot happen.
Smite can only be triggered when the paladin actually hits. If shield prevents an attack from hitting then the hit NEVER happened and smite is impossible.
Shield also can only be triggered when the attacker actually hits, so I'm not sure what point you think you're making.
"If you’re unsure when a reaction occurs in relation to its trigger, here’s the rule: the reaction happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise."
The reaction happens AFTER its trigger completes. On a possible hit, shield can be cast or not. If shield is cast then the hit may retroactively becomes a miss. If shield is not cast then the hit stands. The trigger for smite is a HIT while the trigger for shield is a POSSIBLE hit that could be canceled by the effect of the shield spell.
100% incorrect. The trigger for shield is not a possible hit, it is a hit; the trigger for Divine Smite is exactly the same thing.
Waiting for the trigger to complete for smite is waiting to determine whether a hit actually occurred or not. That is RAW based on the Xanathar's quote. If an attack ACTUALLY hits then the paladin can use smite. If an attack does not hit then smite is not possible.
If an attack actually hits, that is the point at which the attacker and defender simultaneously decide whether or not to Divine Smite or to cast shield, respectively. Their triggers are the same.
The aspect that you seem to be missing is that a "hit" does not actually occur until AFTER any abilites that could mitigate that hit have been resolved (i.e. the trigger completes) - until those are resolved the "hit" is just a possible or potential hit. AFTER resolving the effect of shield or similar abilities THEN it is known whether the possible hit is actually a hit or a miss. At this point the trigger for smite is complete (not before) and the paladin can choose to smite or not knowing that the attack WAS a hit or not.
Again, 100% incorrect. If that were true, no one could ever cast shield, because it's a reaction spell that requires a real, bona fide hit in order to cast it.
P.S. Anyway, that is how I run it and I think it is supported by RAW. I also don't like making players feel bad by forcing them to waste resources when that is clearly (to me) not the intended use of smite.
It is not supported by RAW. Your position requires that the trigger for shield be "you are about to be hit by an attack" or "you could potentially be hit by an attack," but it isn't. It's "you are hit by an attack." The fact that both the spell and the class feature decisions happen at precisely the same time was an ambiguity that the designers clearly recognized well enough to write something into Xanathar's Guide about it, and Xanathar's Guide provides guidance that will allow the end result of your baseless position almost all the time. You don't have to invent fake rules to avoid "making players feel bad." The actual rules almost always do that just fine.
You've said this multiple times and its not sinking in for some of these folks. I second this opinion.
Reaction Trigger for Shield: "which you take when you are hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell"
Trigger for Smite: "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack"
These are the same moment in time but from different perspectives (the attacker vs the defender). When effects would take place at the same time, Xanathar's dictates that the person at the game table whose turn it is (player or DM) determines the order. In most cases, this sequence will happen on the attacker's turn, so the Paladin would choose the order, and can make the decision to activate smite after Shield resolves and they know whether the hit occurs.
1. Does the Smite get through at all? No...the shield would then apply and the hit would be nullified and therefore no damage is applied.
2. Is the Smite slot wasted? No....the smite feature states smites can only be expended on a hit. Since the hit is turned into a miss the condition for it to proc no longer qualifies.
As a reaction, shield turns a "hit" into a "miss". It's not explicitly called out as such, and it doesn't need to be. The paladin hasn't actually made contact with their weapon, so the conditions for Divine Smite haven't been met.
Divine Smite
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or a fiend, to a maximum of 6d8.
If there's no base weapon damage, then there can be no additional radiant weapon damage. We're not talking about damage nullification. We're talking about an attack not actually connecting when it otherwise would. If you don't get to roll damage at all, then Divine Smite cannot happen.
As others have said, Divine Smite and Shield have identical conditions. It is incorrect on its face to claim that one has met a condition when the other has not - they either both meet the condition, or neither do.
As a reaction, shield turns a "hit" into a "miss". It's not explicitly called out as such, and it doesn't need to be. The paladin hasn't actually made contact with their weapon, so the conditions for Divine Smite haven't been met.
Divine Smite
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or a fiend, to a maximum of 6d8.
If there's no base weapon damage, then there can be no additional radiant weapon damage. We're not talking about damage nullification. We're talking about an attack not actually connecting when it otherwise would. If you don't get to roll damage at all, then Divine Smite cannot happen.
As others have said, Divine Smite and Shield have identical conditions. It is incorrect on its face to claim that one has met a condition when the other has not - they either both meet the condition, or neither do.
Yes, they have. They've also said that, depending on who's turn it is, the spell slot for Divine Smite can be wasted. I understand why the rule from Xanathar's was included, and I find it commendable to be brought up. (That said, I disagree with linking to text on the website not everyone may have access to.) But, in this instance, it's just not practical.
You cannot roll for additional damage when there's no damage roll.
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Please cite a rule that says that matters.
Shield also can only be triggered when the attacker actually hits, so I'm not sure what point you think you're making.
100% incorrect. The trigger for shield is not a possible hit, it is a hit; the trigger for Divine Smite is exactly the same thing.
If an attack actually hits, that is the point at which the attacker and defender simultaneously decide whether or not to Divine Smite or to cast shield, respectively. Their triggers are the same.
Again, 100% incorrect. If that were true, no one could ever cast shield, because it's a reaction spell that requires a real, bona fide hit in order to cast it.
It is not supported by RAW. Your position requires that the trigger for shield be "you are about to be hit by an attack" or "you could potentially be hit by an attack," but it isn't. It's "you are hit by an attack." The fact that both the spell and the class feature decisions happen at precisely the same time was an ambiguity that the designers clearly recognized well enough to write something into Xanathar's Guide about it, and Xanathar's Guide provides guidance that will allow the end result of your baseless position almost all the time. You don't have to invent fake rules to avoid "making players feel bad." The actual rules almost always do that just fine.
As a reaction, shield turns a "hit" into a "miss". It's not explicitly called out as such, and it doesn't need to be. The paladin hasn't actually made contact with their weapon, so the conditions for Divine Smite haven't been met.
If there's no base weapon damage, then there can be no additional radiant weapon damage. We're not talking about damage nullification. We're talking about an attack not actually connecting when it otherwise would. If you don't get to roll damage at all, then Divine Smite cannot happen.
You've said this multiple times and its not sinking in for some of these folks. I second this opinion.
Reaction Trigger for Shield: "which you take when you are hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell"
Trigger for Smite: "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack"
These are the same moment in time but from different perspectives (the attacker vs the defender). When effects would take place at the same time, Xanathar's dictates that the person at the game table whose turn it is (player or DM) determines the order. In most cases, this sequence will happen on the attacker's turn, so the Paladin would choose the order, and can make the decision to activate smite after Shield resolves and they know whether the hit occurs.
So I think we have two things to consider:
1. Does the Smite get through at all? No...the shield would then apply and the hit would be nullified and therefore no damage is applied.
2. Is the Smite slot wasted? No....the smite feature states smites can only be expended on a hit. Since the hit is turned into a miss the condition for it to proc no longer qualifies.
As others have said, Divine Smite and Shield have identical conditions. It is incorrect on its face to claim that one has met a condition when the other has not - they either both meet the condition, or neither do.
Yes, they have. They've also said that, depending on who's turn it is, the spell slot for Divine Smite can be wasted. I understand why the rule from Xanathar's was included, and I find it commendable to be brought up. (That said, I disagree with linking to text on the website not everyone may have access to.) But, in this instance, it's just not practical.
You cannot roll for additional damage when there's no damage roll.