A player of mine noticed an odd wording when it came to Charisma casters and asked for my interpretation. It was about how Charisma Casters Multiclass. Specifically the wording in how they add their spells to their spell list. For Charisma Casters the wording is:
"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer/Bard/Warlock/Paladin spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer/Bard/Warlock/Paladin spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
The player is interpreting the rule as in, if they multiclass a Bard 18 levels and a Sorcerer 2 levels, they could learn a 9th level Sorcerer spell. This is because the rule only clarifies that it has to be for a spell for which you have spell slots. Meaning, since they have 9th level spell slots, they can learn a 9th level Sorcerer spell.
Is this correct? I wasn't so sure at first, but that wording is very specific. It doesn't say the spell has to be a spell within the Class' spell slots. Just, spell slots.
Am I missing something here? Is the player right? Please feel free to explain how this works! I'm sorta confused ^^;
No. I'm not sure where your player read that since that specific line doesn't appear in the books as far as I know. What the books say is the following:
Under bard:
"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the bard spells you know and replace it with another spell from the bard spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
Under paladin:
"You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of paladin spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list."
Under warlock:
"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the warlock spells you know and replace it with another spell from the warlock spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
Under sorcerer:
"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
... and under multiclassing:
"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
All of this means that a level 18 bard/2 sorcerer can replace BARD spells when they level up as a bard or sorcerer spells when they level up as a sorcerer and they can ONLY be ones that the can know as if they were a single-classed member of that class - the spell slots you have access to is irrelevant - it is the level of spells known by each class that matters. They can't take 9th level sorcerer spells because they can't cast them.
A level 10 wizard/10 cleric will have level 6,7,8 and 9 spell slots but will know NO level 6,7,8 or 9 spells for example.
P.S. Paladins are completely different from the rest since a paladin can swap out their spells for ANY on their list after a long rest while the others choose and swap on level up but it still has to be spells they can cast as a single classed paladin (no matter what spells slots they may have).
Yeah, ask them where they got that wording. Show them the Basic Rules document or the PHB. David42's quoted all the relevant bits above, with the most important bit being "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
A player of mine noticed an odd wording when it came to Charisma casters and asked for my interpretation. It was about how Charisma Casters Multiclass. Specifically the wording in how they add their spells to their spell list. For Charisma Casters the wording is:
"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer/Bard/Warlock/Paladin spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer/Bard/Warlock/Paladin spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
The player is interpreting the rule as in, if they multiclass a Bard 18 levels and a Sorcerer 2 levels, they could learn a 9th level Sorcerer spell. This is because the rule only clarifies that it has to be for a spell for which you have spell slots. Meaning, since they have 9th level spell slots, they can learn a 9th level Sorcerer spell.
Is this correct? I wasn't so sure at first, but that wording is very specific. It doesn't say the spell has to be a spell within the Class' spell slots. Just, spell slots.
Am I missing something here? Is the player right? Please feel free to explain how this works! I'm sorta confused ^^;
The easy way to know your player is lying to you is that Paladins don't know any spells, so naturally they can't replace spells they know.
A player of mine noticed an odd wording when it came to Charisma casters and asked for my interpretation. It was about how Charisma Casters Multiclass. Specifically the wording in how they add their spells to their spell list. For Charisma Casters the wording is:
"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer/Bard/Warlock/Paladin spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer/Bard/Warlock/Paladin spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
The player is interpreting the rule as in, if they multiclass a Bard 18 levels and a Sorcerer 2 levels, they could learn a 9th level Sorcerer spell. This is because the rule only clarifies that it has to be for a spell for which you have spell slots. Meaning, since they have 9th level spell slots, they can learn a 9th level Sorcerer spell.
Is this correct? I wasn't so sure at first, but that wording is very specific. It doesn't say the spell has to be a spell within the Class' spell slots. Just, spell slots.
Am I missing something here? Is the player right? Please feel free to explain how this works! I'm sorta confused ^^;
Yeah, I'm calling Shenanigans on this one. That wording does not appear in the chapter on Multiclassing, and it does not appear in that form in any of the Charisma-casting classes. It's in the Bard, Warlock and Sorcerer classes descriptions, but without the "/otherclass/otherclass" bit, and it's not in the Paladin class description at all. The PHB is quite clear. You choose your spells from each class as if you are a single-classed character of the level you have in that class, regardless of the highest-level spell slot you have as a multiclassed character. So either your player has an incorrect transcription of the PHB, or you do, or your player is lying to you hoping you won't notice.
The advantage of a multi-class character is that they KNOW many more spells of a lower level. They typically upcast a ton of stuff, but never compete with the higher level stuff of their lower class.
Compare a Bard 20 with a Bard 18/Sor 2
Bard 20 knows 4 cantrips, 22 bard spells, can cast any level, and can cast 4 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 3 4th, 3 5th, 2 6th, 2 7th, 1 8th and 1 9th.
Bard 18 / Sorc 2 can cast the exact same number of spells. But in addition to the 4 bard cantrips and 22 bard spells of any level, he ALSO knows 4 extra sorcerer cantrips and 3 first level sorcerer spells. For this reason, he does not bother learning much if any first level bard spells. He uses those 4 1st level slots almost only for sorc. spells. Effectively this gives him an extra 4 bard spells of any level. He might choose to learn Healing word or Faerie Fire, but probably not both. He would rather learn an extra higher level spell. At 22 spells learned divided by 9 levels, a pure bard gets only 3 spells for 4 of his spell levels and 2 for the other 5 of his spell levels. But the sorceror 2 / bard 18 gets 4 first level, 3 spells for 5 levels and 2 spells for 3 levels. FAR more versatility, even if he does not get spell slots. That can be the difference between having Feather Fall memorized and ready for the rare emergency that needs it, and not having it available because your 1st level spells are Faerie Fire, Healing Word and Charm Person.
No. I'm not sure where your player read that since that specific line doesn't appear in the books as far as I know. What the books say is the following:
Under bard:
"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the bard spells you know and replace it with another spell from the bard spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
Under paladin:
"You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of paladin spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list."
Under warlock:
"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the warlock spells you know and replace it with another spell from the warlock spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
Under sorcerer:
"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
... and under multiclassing:
"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
All of this means that a level 18 bard/2 sorcerer can replace BARD spells when they level up as a bard or sorcerer spells when they level up as a sorcerer and they can ONLY be ones that the can know as if they were a single-classed member of that class - the spell slots you have access to is irrelevant - it is the level of spells known by each class that matters. They can't take 9th level sorcerer spells because they can't cast them.
A level 10 wizard/10 cleric will have level 6,7,8 and 9 spell slots but will know NO level 6,7,8 or 9 spells for example.
P.S. Paladins are completely different from the rest since a paladin can swap out their spells for ANY on their list after a long rest while the others choose and swap on level up but it still has to be spells they can cast as a single classed paladin (no matter what spells slots they may have).
Combining the two, they could actually trade a spell they know out for a spell of a higher level than they could cast. For example, on going to cleric 10, that wizard/cleric could trade a 1st level cleric spell out for a 9th, but they could not prepare it. so there would be no point.
Cleric spells are always prepared, given by their god/domain chosen, but the player needs to create a list of spells, they dont have access to higher level spells until they meet the level requirements, basically they arent worthy to gain access to those spells. While a Wizard has to prepare a list of spells from their spell book. Its upto the DM however if they allow a Wizard to cast a spell that is beyond their understanding directly from their spell book that's been placed there by another Wizard, such as using the rules for scroll casting a spell of higher understanding, however in doing so such a spell could/would disappear from the spell book because its not a spell you can memorize/prepare in doing so. Same goes for Clerics, only time they can cast a spell higher than they have access to is if its on a scroll, again the rules coming in for casting such.
Cleric spells are always prepared, given by their god/domain chosen, but the player needs to create a list of spells, they dont have access to higher level spells until they meet the level requirements, basically they arent worthy to gain access to those spells. While a Wizard has to prepare a list of spells from their spell book. Its upto the DM however if they allow a Wizard to cast a spell that is beyond their understanding directly from their spell book that's been placed there by another Wizard, such as using the rules for scroll casting a spell of higher understanding, however in doing so such a spell could/would disappear from the spell book because its not a spell you can memorize/prepare in doing so. Same goes for Clerics, only time they can cast a spell higher than they have access to is if its on a scroll, again the rules coming in for casting such.
Some cleric spells are always prepared, but only the domain spells. And those are not available until earned. I suppose one could argue that a cleric might trade out a spell for a domain spell they cannot yet cast but the counter argument would be that it is still not gained as a domain spell until the appropriate level and thus would still not be available.
No, all cleric spells are prepared that are available to you, not just some of them. There isnt much argue there because you pretty much gave the non-argue point to the whole thing. Higher level spells are not going to be available, you cant trade out something you do NOT have access to.
Cleric spells are always prepared, given by their god/domain chosen, but the player needs to create a list of spells, they dont have access to higher level spells until they meet the level requirements, basically they arent worthy to gain access to those spells. While a Wizard has to prepare a list of spells from their spell book. Its upto the DM however if they allow a Wizard to cast a spell that is beyond their understanding directly from their spell book that's been placed there by another Wizard, such as using the rules for scroll casting a spell of higher understanding, however in doing so such a spell could/would disappear from the spell book because its not a spell you can memorize/prepare in doing so. Same goes for Clerics, only time they can cast a spell higher than they have access to is if its on a scroll, again the rules coming in for casting such.
Some cleric spells are always prepared, but only the domain spells. And those are not available until earned. I suppose one could argue that a cleric might trade out a spell for a domain spell they cannot yet cast but the counter argument would be that it is still not gained as a domain spell until the appropriate level and thus would still not be available.
No, all cleric spells are prepared that are available to you, not just some of them. There isnt much argue there because you pretty much gave the non-argue point to the whole thing. Higher level spells are not going to be available, you cant trade out something you do NOT have access to.
I think there is some miscommunication here. IDK.
Clerics (and druids, artificers, and paladins) have to prepare their spells after a long rest, the number is limited by ability and class level. They can only cast spells they have prepared. They have subclass spells that are always prepared, but the rest of the class spell list is not prepared by default.
Their spells can't (doesn't have to) be swapped out when they level up, because they can be swapped every day.
This question comes up a lot. The combination of the "single-classed member of that class" statement from the multiclass rules and the "for which you have spell slots" statements from the class features combine to essentially require that you select spells for each class based on the spell slots in your class table for your current level in that class. Because you select spells as a "single-classed member of that class," the bit about "for which you have spell slots" doesn't mean multiclass spell slots; it means the ones in your class table. Whether you are dealing with levels in prepared or known spell casters, you make selections based on your class levels and your class table then get to use them in your multiclass spell slots.
People either forget about that "single-classed member" part of the multiclass rules or just don't understand that a single-classed character doesn't have multiclass spell slots. The rule as written is somewhat cumbersome, but it is written from the perspective that multi-classing is an optional rule and each individual class is written as if you only have levels in that class. Sure, you could probably write rules of the same effect so that it is easier to understand multi-classing, but I think that most of the ways that I can come up with actually make the individual class spell selection rules more cumbersome to follow.
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Hello Everyone!
A player of mine noticed an odd wording when it came to Charisma casters and asked for my interpretation. It was about how Charisma Casters Multiclass. Specifically the wording in how they add their spells to their spell list. For Charisma Casters the wording is:
"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer/Bard/Warlock/Paladin spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer/Bard/Warlock/Paladin spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
The player is interpreting the rule as in, if they multiclass a Bard 18 levels and a Sorcerer 2 levels, they could learn a 9th level Sorcerer spell. This is because the rule only clarifies that it has to be for a spell for which you have spell slots. Meaning, since they have 9th level spell slots, they can learn a 9th level Sorcerer spell.
Is this correct? I wasn't so sure at first, but that wording is very specific. It doesn't say the spell has to be a spell within the Class' spell slots. Just, spell slots.
Am I missing something here? Is the player right? Please feel free to explain how this works! I'm sorta confused ^^;
No. I'm not sure where your player read that since that specific line doesn't appear in the books as far as I know. What the books say is the following:
Under bard:
"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the bard spells you know and replace it with another spell from the bard spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
Under paladin:
"You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of paladin spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list."
Under warlock:
"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the warlock spells you know and replace it with another spell from the warlock spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
Under sorcerer:
"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
... and under multiclassing:
"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
All of this means that a level 18 bard/2 sorcerer can replace BARD spells when they level up as a bard or sorcerer spells when they level up as a sorcerer and they can ONLY be ones that the can know as if they were a single-classed member of that class - the spell slots you have access to is irrelevant - it is the level of spells known by each class that matters. They can't take 9th level sorcerer spells because they can't cast them.
A level 10 wizard/10 cleric will have level 6,7,8 and 9 spell slots but will know NO level 6,7,8 or 9 spells for example.
P.S. Paladins are completely different from the rest since a paladin can swap out their spells for ANY on their list after a long rest while the others choose and swap on level up but it still has to be spells they can cast as a single classed paladin (no matter what spells slots they may have).
Yeah, ask them where they got that wording. Show them the Basic Rules document or the PHB. David42's quoted all the relevant bits above, with the most important bit being "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
The easy way to know your player is lying to you is that Paladins don't know any spells, so naturally they can't replace spells they know.
Yeah, I'm calling Shenanigans on this one. That wording does not appear in the chapter on Multiclassing, and it does not appear in that form in any of the Charisma-casting classes. It's in the Bard, Warlock and Sorcerer classes descriptions, but without the "/otherclass/otherclass" bit, and it's not in the Paladin class description at all. The PHB is quite clear. You choose your spells from each class as if you are a single-classed character of the level you have in that class, regardless of the highest-level spell slot you have as a multiclassed character. So either your player has an incorrect transcription of the PHB, or you do, or your player is lying to you hoping you won't notice.
The advantage of a multi-class character is that they KNOW many more spells of a lower level. They typically upcast a ton of stuff, but never compete with the higher level stuff of their lower class.
Compare a Bard 20 with a Bard 18/Sor 2
Bard 20 knows 4 cantrips, 22 bard spells, can cast any level, and can cast 4 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 3 4th, 3 5th, 2 6th, 2 7th, 1 8th and 1 9th.
Bard 18 / Sorc 2 can cast the exact same number of spells. But in addition to the 4 bard cantrips and 22 bard spells of any level, he ALSO knows 4 extra sorcerer cantrips and 3 first level sorcerer spells. For this reason, he does not bother learning much if any first level bard spells. He uses those 4 1st level slots almost only for sorc. spells. Effectively this gives him an extra 4 bard spells of any level. He might choose to learn Healing word or Faerie Fire, but probably not both. He would rather learn an extra higher level spell. At 22 spells learned divided by 9 levels, a pure bard gets only 3 spells for 4 of his spell levels and 2 for the other 5 of his spell levels. But the sorceror 2 / bard 18 gets 4 first level, 3 spells for 5 levels and 2 spells for 3 levels. FAR more versatility, even if he does not get spell slots. That can be the difference between having Feather Fall memorized and ready for the rare emergency that needs it, and not having it available because your 1st level spells are Faerie Fire, Healing Word and Charm Person.
The extra Cantrips are also helpful.
Cleric spells are always prepared, given by their god/domain chosen, but the player needs to create a list of spells, they dont have access to higher level spells until they meet the level requirements, basically they arent worthy to gain access to those spells. While a Wizard has to prepare a list of spells from their spell book. Its upto the DM however if they allow a Wizard to cast a spell that is beyond their understanding directly from their spell book that's been placed there by another Wizard, such as using the rules for scroll casting a spell of higher understanding, however in doing so such a spell could/would disappear from the spell book because its not a spell you can memorize/prepare in doing so. Same goes for Clerics, only time they can cast a spell higher than they have access to is if its on a scroll, again the rules coming in for casting such.
No, because of... A multiclassed character follows the multiclass rules, and the multiclass rules say:
Also, paladins prepare spells not learn, so shouldn't be combined with other charisma casters in that ruling.
No, all cleric spells are prepared that are available to you, not just some of them. There isnt much argue there because you pretty much gave the non-argue point to the whole thing. Higher level spells are not going to be available, you cant trade out something you do NOT have access to.
I think there is some miscommunication here. IDK.
Clerics (and druids, artificers, and paladins) have to prepare their spells after a long rest, the number is limited by ability and class level. They can only cast spells they have prepared. They have subclass spells that are always prepared, but the rest of the class spell list is not prepared by default.
Their spells can't (doesn't have to) be swapped out when they level up, because they can be swapped every day.
Hopefully, that settles that irrelevant tangent.
This question comes up a lot. The combination of the "single-classed member of that class" statement from the multiclass rules and the "for which you have spell slots" statements from the class features combine to essentially require that you select spells for each class based on the spell slots in your class table for your current level in that class. Because you select spells as a "single-classed member of that class," the bit about "for which you have spell slots" doesn't mean multiclass spell slots; it means the ones in your class table. Whether you are dealing with levels in prepared or known spell casters, you make selections based on your class levels and your class table then get to use them in your multiclass spell slots.
People either forget about that "single-classed member" part of the multiclass rules or just don't understand that a single-classed character doesn't have multiclass spell slots. The rule as written is somewhat cumbersome, but it is written from the perspective that multi-classing is an optional rule and each individual class is written as if you only have levels in that class. Sure, you could probably write rules of the same effect so that it is easier to understand multi-classing, but I think that most of the ways that I can come up with actually make the individual class spell selection rules more cumbersome to follow.