As a DM, if a player tried to make this nonsense argument that they should be allowed to do a multi-round jump, I would allow them to do it and would inform them that the following would happen:
- between their turns in the middle of the jump, they would be noticed by every enemy who made a Perception check (DC determined by environment, but not very high since you have chosen to soar through the air)
- any ranged attack against them would be made at advantage, since they made themselves such an inviting target
- they would automatically fail any DEX saves they have to make in the middle of the jump, since they have no way to avoid anything
And when do you have them smack the roof?
or did they make the jump, despite having everything against them?
how far did they have to jump, was there ever a chance for them to possibly succeed?
I look forward to the solution to this exciting and suspenseful turn of events during this jump.
You believe your interpretation is correct, and we believe ours is correct.
You believe that turns and rounds have some sort of movement penalty and when a persons turn is over they are frozen in game and doing absolutely nothing between turns except staying still and waiting for their next turn to come around. I guess a round in your games takes the real life time to accomplish and every PC and NPC character in game is just twiddling their thumbs waiting for their turn to come back around.
We believe that is only the case for our real life view..... But In the game world the characters are not paused or waiting around for anything. We believe time is constant in game and never pauses in or out of combat.
You do what you want at the table, We will do what we want at the table.
You believe your interpretation is correct, and we believe ours is correct.
You believe that turns and rounds have some sort of movement penalty and when a persons turn is over they are frozen in game and doing absolutely nothing between turns except staying still and waiting for their next turn to come around. I guess a round in your games takes the real life time to accomplish and every PC and NPC character in game is just twiddling their thumbs waiting for their turn to come back around.
We believe that is only the case for our real life view..... But In the game world the characters are not paused or waiting around for anything. We believe time is constant in game and never pauses in or out of combat.
You do what you want at the table, We will do what we want at the table.
Right, I believe that movement in combat is described by the combat chapter of the PHB.
You believe your interpretation is correct, and we believe ours is correct.
You believe that turns and rounds have some sort of movement penalty and when a persons turn is over they are frozen in game and doing absolutely nothing between turns except staying still and waiting for their next turn to come around. I guess a round in your games takes the real life time to accomplish and every PC and NPC character in game is just twiddling their thumbs waiting for their turn to come back around.
We believe that is only the case for our real life view..... But In the game world the characters are not paused or waiting around for anything. We believe time is constant in game and never pauses in or out of combat.
You do what you want at the table, We will do what we want at the table.
Right, I believe that movement in combat is described by the combat chapter of the PHB.
We believe in that too.... we just don't believe it means that all motion stops between rounds, and that the same strength that will make the jump out of combat ceases during combat. We also believe that spells and magic can extend that jump beyond turns..... You don't. All cleared up now thnx.
The character is jumping and declares the area they want to land in. (Why would they not know where they wanted to land?) This declared action will use all of their jump capability and in fact stretch over their total movement.
I would not penalize the character. But I would say that they are in effect declaring the start of their next turn. Finishing the jump and finishing that next turns movement.He could then make his attack and reactions but his movement is used up.
He is essentially just declaring his intended movement. And he can not change it in mid jump.
The character is jumping and declares the area they want to land in. (Why would they not know where they wanted to land?) This declared action will use all of their jump capability and in fact stretch over their total movement.
I would not penalize the character. But I would say that they are in effect declaring the start of their next turn. Finishing the jump and finishing that next turns movement.He could then make his attack and reactions but his movement is used up.
He is essentially just declaring his intended movement. And he can not change it in mid jump.
I am sure you have enjoyed the conversation at hand, and have a few questions about this jump attempt.
first, a bit of clarification on this: “This declared action will use all of their jump capability and in fact stretch over their total movement.”, and by what metrics are you permitting them to accomplish the jumping task?
secondly, would you mind enlightening us on this part ( as the previous clarification is yet unclear, thus requiring a better defined understanding of the underlying concept): “I would not penalize the character. But I would say that they are in effect declaring the start of their next turn. Finishing the jump and finishing that next turns movement.He could then make his attack and reactions but his movement is used up.”
And lastly, if I am committing myself to making an extended jump then I expect at some point during the middle of that jump for something to turn sideways quick like and in a hurry, and if powers that be deem it so the jump is successful, who am I to complain.
Its no different than attempting to disengage without the ability to. You risk that opportunity attack.
And a normal DM would not take the opportunity to attack the jumping character with every means possible. Unless they make some sort of skill check to notice the jumping character.
And whether the character is hanging in the air or landed or getting ready to jump, All the other NPC's/characters get a chance to go before his next action/turn.
Its no different than attempting to disengage without the ability to. You risk that opportunity attack.
And a normal DM would not take the opportunity to attack the jumping character with every means possible. Unless they make some sort of skill check to notice the jumping character.
And whether the character is hanging in the air or landed or getting ready to jump, All the other NPC's/characters get a chance to go before his next action/turn.
“Getting ready to jump”, may I ask yet again for clarification?
cause there’s edges and there’s insanity, and to jump as far and safely one can go is the question?
No effective game difference between "getting ready to jump between turns" and "mid jump between turns,." What's the question here?
Really, no difference between haven’t jumped yet and some distance traveled/traveling well within the action of jumping?
Question is simple: define “getting ready to jump” in the context of the discussion of the quote given as:
“And whether the character is hanging in the air or landed or getting ready to jump, All the other NPC's/characters get a chance to go before his next action/turn.”
Reason, context implies 6 second time sequence prior to physical action of jumping a declared distance for the ability of both player and adjudicator/DM to properly resolve various action(s), both by player and DM controlled NPC’s, of all possible actions that may prevent the next 6 second time sequences from occurring.
Remember, a running long jump requires a 10ft movement prior to jumping? Do I get to split required movement where the 10ft movement is right at the end of first 6 seconds, and still qualify for the long jump in the next 6 seconds, or is part of the requirement tied directly to the second 6 seconds?
And lastly, again a dwarf with a speed/movement of 25ft, 50ft dash distance, with a Strength score of 20 and a jump distance equal to Strength given per RAW; with a jump spell enabled ( jump distance is increased by a factor of 3, normal jump distance of 15ft now increased to 45ft for example ), and with this said dwarf would have a long jumping distance of 60ft.
Now given that very simple bit of character info, the question best asked is: By rule of Crawford, where’s my damned 20ft of jump at, because by RAW that total action of long jumping equals 70ft of distance, while I only have a base movement max of 50ft dashing. ( and we haven’t even got to what the characters class and other things that may affect the actual jump distance one may have )
So what you mean is there isn’t a rules difference, just a feels difference? I don’t see where you show that committing to.a move on your next turn because you will jump or did jump is mechanically different per a rule.
This is just one of the questions that the rules don't answer because they don't have to since they don't make the base assumption that you did. But any DM that does make your assumption will have to figure these things out.
If i say I'm jumping 20', and use 5' on round 1, do I have to keep going on round 2? What if I'm knocked prone mid jump? etc?
There are no rules answers because the rules assume jumps begin and end on a single turn.
Your dwarf can jump his 20' all they want out of combat, but as soon as turns are involved, movemnt is limited by the Ch 9. rules.
So what you mean is there isn’t a rules difference, just a feels difference? I don’t see where you show that committing to.a move on your next turn because you will jump or did jump is mechanically different per a rule.
Ah, but there is a difference of rule. Because if one looks in totality of all rules given, and the fact the very same individual who is held responsible for designing the rules doesn’t notice a majority of the rules developed that involves jumping are designed with respect to the rules in the section of rules called special types of movement that specifically defines the mechanics of jumping, uses rules found in a single specific item ( which specifically addresses jumping due to significant changes the item imparts to base mechanics), to fundamentally change the official RAW is a difference that becomes noticeable even in the simplest construction of character.
I have stated a simple example of a basic character build that even before getting into trouble, has a edge case of action that fundamentally questions the logic of the individual, which questions just how much input that individual had in the design phase with respect to the mechanics of jumping?( he helped develop the damn thing, should know better than most what the majority of the rules are, or at least have a general idea what they really do ).
This isn’t to bash the individual personally ( they are doing the best they can, and everyone is prone to having moments of misunderstanding ), but merely to point out the differences in logic with regard to the mechanics of jumping as defined.
And yet when do I as a player can expect to have the legs cut out from under my character while attempting to long jump during a turn in combat?
when the mentality is that the very action I would like to take is cut short because the math ain’t mathing, and damn be me for even suggesting the idea is the straw that broke the DM ( eye is still twitching, smoke pouring from the ears ), when clearly the RAW states the action is permissible, then the question is when can I expect the communal latrine pot to be tossed? During the run-up, or while in mid-air, or right as I’m about to jump?
So there isn't a rule or ruleset that explains what happens to a character when the world around them changes mid jump? Are you committed to jumping through the wall of fire, past a couple of enemies, and through a gate to one of the layers of hell?
My question doesn't need an answer, but it is sure telling that there doesn't seem to be a rule for this situation (even though there is one for flying). It's as though the rules work well when you make the same base assumptions as the authors and fall apart when you don't. The problem I point out with your interpretation just disappears when you make the assumption that a jump on a turn is limited by movement.
I also don't understand what the problem is with the assumption that your character may be able to do things outside of combat (say, jump 20' or song of rest or whatever) that they might not be able to do in combat (because of their 25' movement or combat interrupting rests or whatever).
So there isn't a rule or ruleset that explains what happens to a character when the world around them changes mid jump? Are you committed to jumping through the wall of fire, past a couple of enemies, and through a gate to one of the layers of hell?
My question doesn't need an answer, but it is sure telling that there doesn't seem to be a rule for this situation (even though there is one for flying). It's as though the rules work well when you make the same base assumptions as the authors and fall apart when you don't. The problem I point out with your interpretation just disappears when you make the assumption that a jump on a turn is limited by movement.
I also don't understand what the problem is with the assumption that your character may be able to do things outside of combat (say, jump 20' or song of rest or whatever) that they might not be able to do in combat (because of their 25' movement or combat interrupting rests or whatever).
And when did the mentality of DM’s become “let’s do things in combat half ass because I already have enough shit to deal with”?
jumping has always been a problem of the game, and players have had to find creative ways to enable such means of jumping both outside of combat and inside combat.
And as others have pointed out, what’s the difference between something that can be done outside of combat all nice and safe and unbothered, and the same something that can happen inside of combat where shit can go sideways quick like and unexpectedly, 6 seconds.
6 seconds that are already stretched due to the fundamental nature that in 6 seconds a lot of things can happen, and the mentality of the DM is to tell the player “no you can not do that because I don’t have time to deal with your bullshit, and I can’t be bothered to take 6 seconds to lookup rules that may support your intentions”
And yet, even in the Sage Advice Compendium the link for the word “move” brings people to the adventuring section where both speed and special type of movements that are permissible, are explained and defined instead of directing one to the combat rules?
A lot of the rules don’t account for every single specific thing that might happen during any given moment, which is why the burden is on the player and DM to ( within the realm of common sense, conditions of situation, and rules as generally defined ) work out a solution to problem or task.
And if a player has foreknowledge that during combat, the DM may well rule the player can only traverse a certain distance that may possibly leave a player mid-jump freeze framed, and potentially expose to them to failure, and the player still commits to the action they wish to make then that decision is on the player, and the consequences thereof on the DM to use as they please.
As the situation might demand a DM to decide in the heat of the moment what happens, and the rules don’t specifically address this particular case, the ultimate decision still remains on the DM to figure it through.
Once again, a dwarf with 25 move, 50 dash and STR of 20, declares that they wish during combat to run and long jump 20ft into a horde of enemies, normally not a problem as in general they have the ability.
but add a spell or feature that extends the range of a particular special type of movement called jumping, such that now the total jumping movement during that 6 seconds is now longer than the usual total movement one has, and the rules say nothing about how to handle the situation, what is a person to do?
What are you to do? Use the assumptions built in to the rules that are given reminders throughout various places in the game: you can jump as far as your movement allows.
The only "problem" with my interpretation is that a character doesn't get to do a thing that sounds like you think you are entitled to do. But you aren't, your movement is limited in combat by your speed. Your interpretation introduces problems that you can't address whereas mine only introduces the limitation that is assumed by the game and emphasized by items like the boots of striding and springing: jumping is limited by movement.
No if I’m a player who has begun or have been for a time in another person’s game, I know how that DM runs things, how?
cause, before I step up to the game, I’ll watch and see how the DM is running things, and when given a chance will question them on certain aspects and see how it’s handled.
And as a DM, when I begin to even start looking for players, I vet them like it’s a job offering. Why? Just as I willingly invest time and effort in this partnership, so should those willing to play invest time in insuring everyone is informed, ready and able to play.
What are you to do? Use the assumptions built in to the rules that are given reminders throughout various places in the game: you can jump as far as your movement allows.
The only "problem" with my interpretation is that a character doesn't get to do a thing that sounds like you think you are entitled to do. But you aren't, your movement is limited in combat by your speed. Your interpretation introduces problems that you can't address whereas mine only introduces the limitation that is assumed by the game and emphasized by items like the boots of striding and springing: jumping is limited by movement.
And there is the problem you have, you have put faith into a rule that is specifically designed for boots, and using it to discredit the entirety of a vast number of other rules that specifically address the jump mechanics that actually make sense when you put that one, small piece of the puzzle, in place and the wider picture starts to make a better view of insanity make reasonable sense.
my ruling is two choices, jump takes all of one’s turn and all one can do is jump their ass off, or spread the jump over two rounds. previously ran movement from last round qualifying if very last action of previous turn was used in only running( dashing required movement to next turn jump action ), allowing next turn jump with successful ability check to clear jump, and if player during the jump wanting to preform any other action shall in response to said action be placed in harm by way of AoO rule and DM discretion.
No, i don't "put faith" in that rule, i read the rest of the rules and came to the same conclusion without needing to read the boots, then found confirmation in them.
And when do you have them smack the roof?
or did they make the jump, despite having everything against them?
how far did they have to jump, was there ever a chance for them to possibly succeed?
I look forward to the solution to this exciting and suspenseful turn of events during this jump.
You believe your interpretation is correct, and we believe ours is correct.
You believe that turns and rounds have some sort of movement penalty and when a persons turn is over they are frozen in game and doing absolutely nothing between turns except staying still and waiting for their next turn to come around.
I guess a round in your games takes the real life time to accomplish and every PC and NPC character in game is just twiddling their thumbs waiting for their turn to come back around.
We believe that is only the case for our real life view..... But In the game world the characters are not paused or waiting around for anything.
We believe time is constant in game and never pauses in or out of combat.
You do what you want at the table, We will do what we want at the table.
Right, I believe that movement in combat is described by the combat chapter of the PHB.
We believe in that too.... we just don't believe it means that all motion stops between rounds, and that the same strength that will make the jump out of combat ceases during combat.
We also believe that spells and magic can extend that jump beyond turns..... You don't.
All cleared up now thnx.
As a dm I could house rule it like this.
The character is jumping and declares the area they want to land in. (Why would they not know where they wanted to land?)
This declared action will use all of their jump capability and in fact stretch over their total movement.
I would not penalize the character. But I would say that they are in effect declaring the start of their next turn. Finishing the jump and finishing that next turns movement.He could then make his attack and reactions but his movement is used up.
He is essentially just declaring his intended movement. And he can not change it in mid jump.
I am sure you have enjoyed the conversation at hand, and have a few questions about this jump attempt.
first, a bit of clarification on this: “This declared action will use all of their jump capability and in fact stretch over their total movement.”, and by what metrics are you permitting them to accomplish the jumping task?
secondly, would you mind enlightening us on this part ( as the previous clarification is yet unclear, thus requiring a better defined understanding of the underlying concept): “I would not penalize the character. But I would say that they are in effect declaring the start of their next turn. Finishing the jump and finishing that next turns movement.He could then make his attack and reactions but his movement is used up.”
And lastly, if I am committing myself to making an extended jump then I expect at some point during the middle of that jump for something to turn sideways quick like and in a hurry, and if powers that be deem it so the jump is successful, who am I to complain.
Nice snark.
Especially on a home brew idea.
Its no different than attempting to disengage without the ability to. You risk that opportunity attack.
And a normal DM would not take the opportunity to attack the jumping character with every means possible. Unless they make some sort of skill check to notice the jumping character.
And whether the character is hanging in the air or landed or getting ready to jump, All the other NPC's/characters get a chance to go before his next action/turn.
“Getting ready to jump”, may I ask yet again for clarification?
cause there’s edges and there’s insanity, and to jump as far and safely one can go is the question?
No effective game difference between "getting ready to jump between turns" and "mid jump between turns,." What's the question here?
Really, no difference between haven’t jumped yet and some distance traveled/traveling well within the action of jumping?
Question is simple: define “getting ready to jump” in the context of the discussion of the quote given as:
“And whether the character is hanging in the air or landed or getting ready to jump, All the other NPC's/characters get a chance to go before his next action/turn.”
Reason, context implies 6 second time sequence prior to physical action of jumping a declared distance for the ability of both player and adjudicator/DM to properly resolve various action(s), both by player and DM controlled NPC’s, of all possible actions that may prevent the next 6 second time sequences from occurring.
Remember, a running long jump requires a 10ft movement prior to jumping? Do I get to split required movement where the 10ft movement is right at the end of first 6 seconds, and still qualify for the long jump in the next 6 seconds, or is part of the requirement tied directly to the second 6 seconds?
And lastly, again a dwarf with a speed/movement of 25ft, 50ft dash distance, with a Strength score of 20 and a jump distance equal to Strength given per RAW; with a jump spell enabled ( jump distance is increased by a factor of 3, normal jump distance of 15ft now increased to 45ft for example ), and with this said dwarf would have a long jumping distance of 60ft.
Now given that very simple bit of character info, the question best asked is: By rule of Crawford, where’s my damned 20ft of jump at, because by RAW that total action of long jumping equals 70ft of distance, while I only have a base movement max of 50ft dashing. ( and we haven’t even got to what the characters class and other things that may affect the actual jump distance one may have )
So what you mean is there isn’t a rules difference, just a feels difference? I don’t see where you show that committing to.a move on your next turn because you will jump or did jump is mechanically different per a rule.
This is just one of the questions that the rules don't answer because they don't have to since they don't make the base assumption that you did. But any DM that does make your assumption will have to figure these things out.
If i say I'm jumping 20', and use 5' on round 1, do I have to keep going on round 2? What if I'm knocked prone mid jump? etc?
There are no rules answers because the rules assume jumps begin and end on a single turn.
Your dwarf can jump his 20' all they want out of combat, but as soon as turns are involved, movemnt is limited by the Ch 9. rules.
Ah, but there is a difference of rule. Because if one looks in totality of all rules given, and the fact the very same individual who is held responsible for designing the rules doesn’t notice a majority of the rules developed that involves jumping are designed with respect to the rules in the section of rules called special types of movement that specifically defines the mechanics of jumping, uses rules found in a single specific item ( which specifically addresses jumping due to significant changes the item imparts to base mechanics), to fundamentally change the official RAW is a difference that becomes noticeable even in the simplest construction of character.
I have stated a simple example of a basic character build that even before getting into trouble, has a edge case of action that fundamentally questions the logic of the individual, which questions just how much input that individual had in the design phase with respect to the mechanics of jumping?( he helped develop the damn thing, should know better than most what the majority of the rules are, or at least have a general idea what they really do ).
This isn’t to bash the individual personally ( they are doing the best they can, and everyone is prone to having moments of misunderstanding ), but merely to point out the differences in logic with regard to the mechanics of jumping as defined.
And yet when do I as a player can expect to have the legs cut out from under my character while attempting to long jump during a turn in combat?
when the mentality is that the very action I would like to take is cut short because the math ain’t mathing, and damn be me for even suggesting the idea is the straw that broke the DM ( eye is still twitching, smoke pouring from the ears ), when clearly the RAW states the action is permissible, then the question is when can I expect the communal latrine pot to be tossed? During the run-up, or while in mid-air, or right as I’m about to jump?
So there isn't a rule or ruleset that explains what happens to a character when the world around them changes mid jump? Are you committed to jumping through the wall of fire, past a couple of enemies, and through a gate to one of the layers of hell?
My question doesn't need an answer, but it is sure telling that there doesn't seem to be a rule for this situation (even though there is one for flying). It's as though the rules work well when you make the same base assumptions as the authors and fall apart when you don't. The problem I point out with your interpretation just disappears when you make the assumption that a jump on a turn is limited by movement.
I also don't understand what the problem is with the assumption that your character may be able to do things outside of combat (say, jump 20' or song of rest or whatever) that they might not be able to do in combat (because of their 25' movement or combat interrupting rests or whatever).
And when did the mentality of DM’s become “let’s do things in combat half ass because I already have enough shit to deal with”?
jumping has always been a problem of the game, and players have had to find creative ways to enable such means of jumping both outside of combat and inside combat.
And as others have pointed out, what’s the difference between something that can be done outside of combat all nice and safe and unbothered, and the same something that can happen inside of combat where shit can go sideways quick like and unexpectedly, 6 seconds.
6 seconds that are already stretched due to the fundamental nature that in 6 seconds a lot of things can happen, and the mentality of the DM is to tell the player “no you can not do that because I don’t have time to deal with your bullshit, and I can’t be bothered to take 6 seconds to lookup rules that may support your intentions”
And yet, even in the Sage Advice Compendium the link for the word “move” brings people to the adventuring section where both speed and special type of movements that are permissible, are explained and defined instead of directing one to the combat rules?
A lot of the rules don’t account for every single specific thing that might happen during any given moment, which is why the burden is on the player and DM to ( within the realm of common sense, conditions of situation, and rules as generally defined ) work out a solution to problem or task.
And if a player has foreknowledge that during combat, the DM may well rule the player can only traverse a certain distance that may possibly leave a player mid-jump freeze framed, and potentially expose to them to failure, and the player still commits to the action they wish to make then that decision is on the player, and the consequences thereof on the DM to use as they please.
As the situation might demand a DM to decide in the heat of the moment what happens, and the rules don’t specifically address this particular case, the ultimate decision still remains on the DM to figure it through.
Once again, a dwarf with 25 move, 50 dash and STR of 20, declares that they wish during combat to run and long jump 20ft into a horde of enemies, normally not a problem as in general they have the ability.
but add a spell or feature that extends the range of a particular special type of movement called jumping, such that now the total jumping movement during that 6 seconds is now longer than the usual total movement one has, and the rules say nothing about how to handle the situation, what is a person to do?
Sounds a little like you do not trust you Dm.
What are you to do? Use the assumptions built in to the rules that are given reminders throughout various places in the game: you can jump as far as your movement allows.
The only "problem" with my interpretation is that a character doesn't get to do a thing that sounds like you think you are entitled to do. But you aren't, your movement is limited in combat by your speed. Your interpretation introduces problems that you can't address whereas mine only introduces the limitation that is assumed by the game and emphasized by items like the boots of striding and springing: jumping is limited by movement.
No if I’m a player who has begun or have been for a time in another person’s game, I know how that DM runs things, how?
cause, before I step up to the game, I’ll watch and see how the DM is running things, and when given a chance will question them on certain aspects and see how it’s handled.
And as a DM, when I begin to even start looking for players, I vet them like it’s a job offering. Why? Just as I willingly invest time and effort in this partnership, so should those willing to play invest time in insuring everyone is informed, ready and able to play.
And there is the problem you have, you have put faith into a rule that is specifically designed for boots, and using it to discredit the entirety of a vast number of other rules that specifically address the jump mechanics that actually make sense when you put that one, small piece of the puzzle, in place and the wider picture starts to make a better view of insanity make reasonable sense.
my ruling is two choices, jump takes all of one’s turn and all one can do is jump their ass off, or spread the jump over two rounds. previously ran movement from last round qualifying if very last action of previous turn was used in only running( dashing required movement to next turn jump action ), allowing next turn jump with successful ability check to clear jump, and if player during the jump wanting to preform any other action shall in response to said action be placed in harm by way of AoO rule and DM discretion.
No, i don't "put faith" in that rule, i read the rest of the rules and came to the same conclusion without needing to read the boots, then found confirmation in them.
It's like the thread is jumping over a 50 foot gap with only 20 feet of jump.
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-OboeLauren
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What have you jumped yourself into?
hopefully it’s an underground deep lake!