I have two questions regarding Cloud Rune. 1. This question is in regards to two combined effects, paralyzed/unconscious auto critical hit and the Cloud Rune's reaction. Does the critical hit transfer to the new target, assuming the hit wouldn't have been a critical hit unless the original target was paralyzed/unconscious? What brings this question up is the rune "can transfer the attack's effects" and the effect is "any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature" and the trigger of the reaction for the rune is "hit by an attack roll".
2. Do you know the damage of the attack prior to using the reaction?
For your convenience, below is the description that's in question for Cloud Rune from the Fighter subclass: In addition, when you or a creature you can see within 30 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker.The chosen creature becomes the target of the attack, using the same roll. This magic can transfer the attack’s effects regardless of the attack’s range. Once you invoke this rune, you can’t do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
I just wanna know if letting my ally get downed for a free critical hit is a good idea (this is a bad idea socially) or if I should just use it to save them.
"Using the same roll" implies you take the number and check it against this new target. Therefore any auto-crit business against the first target isn't included, and if this new creature is paralyzed/unconscious it is only a critical if they are ALSO next to the attacker.
The damage should be rolled after using this ability, so you wouldn't know how much you've got before making your choice to switch target. If you're using a VTT then you might know by accident.
"Using the same roll" implies you take the number and check it against this new target. Therefore any auto-crit business against the first target isn't included, and if this new creature is paralyzed/unconscious it is only a critical if they are ALSO next to the attacker.
The damage should be rolled after using this ability, so you wouldn't know how much you've got before making your choice to switch target. If you're using a VTT then you might know by accident.
For the first point, would you say that the crit isn't an effect of the attack but an effect of being hit, then?
Also, under "Making an attack" it says this under step 3. "On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular Attack has rules that specify otherwise." Would that mean the reaction falls under "rules that specify otherwise"?
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Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
"Using the same roll" implies you take the number and check it against this new target. Therefore any auto-crit business against the first target isn't included, and if this new creature is paralyzed/unconscious it is only a critical if they are ALSO next to the attacker.
The damage should be rolled after using this ability, so you wouldn't know how much you've got before making your choice to switch target. If you're using a VTT then you might know by accident.
For the first point, would you say that the crit isn't an effect of the attack but an effect of being hit, then?
Also, under "Making an attack" it says this under step 3. "On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular Attack has rules that specify otherwise." Would that mean the reaction falls under "rules that specify otherwise"?
I would say the crit is an effect of the condition, not of the attack. So if you switched the attack from a non-paralyzed target to a paralyzed one (the opposite of your scenario), the attack would become an auto-crit regardless of the roll if within 5 ft.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This is a good way of hitting a target you might have disadvantage against though. Or transferring advantage against a down enemy to a stronger enemy with high AC.
But yeah, as a reaction this occurs immediately after the trigger (the hit), postponing the damage roll.
This is a good way of hitting a target you might have disadvantage against though. Or transferring advantage against a down enemy to a stronger enemy with high AC.
But yeah, as a reaction this occurs immediately after the trigger (the hit), postponing the damage roll.
Say the new target has the Lucky feat. Would they be able to use it against this ability? I would think they can't.
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Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
I have two questions regarding Cloud Rune. 1. This question is in regards to two combined effects, paralyzed/unconscious auto critical hit and the Cloud Rune's reaction. Does the critical hit transfer to the new target, assuming the hit wouldn't have been a critical hit unless the original target was paralyzed/unconscious? What brings this question up is the rune "can transfer the attack's effects" and the effect is "any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature" and the trigger of the reaction for the rune is "hit by an attack roll".
2. Do you know the damage of the attack prior to using the reaction?
For your convenience, below is the description that's in question for Cloud Rune from the Fighter subclass: In addition, when you or a creature you can see within 30 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker.The chosen creature becomes the target of the attack, using the same roll. This magic can transfer the attack’s effects regardless of the attack’s range. Once you invoke this rune, you can’t do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
I just wanna know if letting my ally get downed for a free critical hit is a good idea (this is a bad idea socially) or if I should just use it to save them.
Yes, the cloud rune can transfer the critical hit - but if you didn't roll a 20 to hit, your critical hit may now miss, since the cloud rune also transfers the roll, which is compared to the new target's AC.
No. You react to the hit, so damage has not been rolled yet.
Yes, the cloud rune can transfer the critical hit - but if you didn't roll a 20 to hit, your critical hit may now miss, since the cloud rune also transfers the roll, which is compared to the new target's AC.
No. You react to the hit, so damage has not been rolled yet.
"Using the same roll" implies you take the number and check it against this new target. Therefore any auto-crit business against the first target isn't included, and if this new creature is paralyzed/unconscious it is only a critical if they are ALSO next to the attacker.
The damage should be rolled after using this ability, so you wouldn't know how much you've got before making your choice to switch target. If you're using a VTT then you might know by accident.
we have a disagreement, it appears.
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Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
"Therefore any auto-crit business against the first target isn't included..." vs. " Yes, the cloud rune can transfer the critical hit" isn't in disagreement?
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Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
This is a good way of hitting a target you might have disadvantage against though. Or transferring advantage against a down enemy to a stronger enemy with high AC.
But yeah, as a reaction this occurs immediately after the trigger (the hit), postponing the damage roll.
Say the new target has the Lucky feat. Would they be able to use it against this ability? I would think they can't.
I would also think they can't. The roll has already been completed abd the timing is missed.
You might want to read someone's entire post before commenting on it.
Goes on to mention that the crit might miss but is still a crit vs Goes on to say that the transfered attack is a crit only if the new target also turns hits into auto-crits.
Ok read the whole thing, it is still a disagreement. Have you read any part of either post before commenting? Or did you just misunderstand what was said?
This is a good way of hitting a target you might have disadvantage against though. Or transferring advantage against a down enemy to a stronger enemy with high AC.
But yeah, as a reaction this occurs immediately after the trigger (the hit), postponing the damage roll.
Say the new target has the Lucky feat. Would they be able to use it against this ability? I would think they can't.
I would also think they can't. The roll has already been completed abd the timing is missed.
You might want to read someone's entire post before commenting on it.
Goes on to mention that the crit might miss but is still a crit vs Goes on to say that the transfered attack is a crit only if the new target also turns hits into auto-crits.
Ok read the whole thing, it is still a disagreement. Have you read any part of either post before commenting? Or did you just misunderstand what was said?
Best to ignore the person. They're not seeing what has been put before them.
I would agree that the roll is final when the reaction is used, so it's nice to get around disadvantages or to redirect advantages. Heck, it could be good for baiting out an enemy's AoO for redirection to their ally. As for the unconscious condition's crit transferring, I don't think it transfers the crit since it's not an effect of the attack but an effect of being unconscious that causes it. Maybe someone has a good argument why it does, but I don't think we'll get attack our downed friend for a free crit transfer.
This could be a way to transfer's a rogue's sneak attack. Couldn't it?
"Using the same roll" implies you take the number and check it against this new target. Therefore any auto-crit business against the first target isn't included, and if this new creature is paralyzed/unconscious it is only a critical if they are ALSO next to the attacker.
The damage should be rolled after using this ability, so you wouldn't know how much you've got before making your choice to switch target. If you're using a VTT then you might know by accident.
Yes, the cloud rune can transfer the critical hit - but if you didn't roll a 20 to hit, your critical hit may now miss, since the cloud rune also transfers the roll, which is compared to the new target's AC.
No. You react to the hit, so damage has not been rolled yet.
Where, exactly, is the disagreement?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would agree that the roll is final when the reaction is used, so it's nice to get around disadvantages or to redirect advantages. Heck, it could be good for baiting out an enemy's AoO for redirection to their ally. As for the unconscious condition's crit transferring, I don't think it transfers the crit since it's not an effect of the attack but an effect of being unconscious that causes it. Maybe someone has a good argument why it does, but I don't think we'll get attack our downed friend for a free crit transfer.
This could be a way to transfer's a rogue's sneak attack. Couldn't it?
The cloud rune explicitly states it transfers all effects, and damage is an effect. Critting increases the damage you will deal when you roll the damage.
It works like this: You hit, crit, and pick up your damage dice. The opposing Rune Knight transfers the hit, so you ask if the hit roll still hits. If it does, you roll the damage dice you're already holding.
"Using the same roll" implies you take the number and check it against this new target.Therefore any auto-crit business against the first target isn't included, and if this new creature is paralyzed/unconscious it is only a critical if they are ALSO next to the attacker.
The damage should be rolled after using this ability, so you wouldn't know how much you've got before making your choice to switch target. If you're using a VTT then you might know by accident.
Yes, the cloud rune can transfer the critical hit - but if you didn't roll a 20 to hit, your critical hit may now miss, since the cloud rune also transfers the roll, which is compared to the new target's AC.
No. You react to the hit, so damage has not been rolled yet.
Where, exactly, is the disagreement?
In the part that is answering the question posed by the OP.
If 2 people were asked if they had Saturday off, 1 said "yes, I have Saturday and Sunday off," and the other said "no I have Sunday through tuesday off,", would you conclude that they both have Sunday off so must have the same answer? Because that is exactly what you did in this case.
I would agree that the roll is final when the reaction is used, so it's nice to get around disadvantages or to redirect advantages. Heck, it could be good for baiting out an enemy's AoO for redirection to their ally. As for the unconscious condition's crit transferring, I don't think it transfers the crit since it's not an effect of the attack but an effect of being unconscious that causes it. Maybe someone has a good argument why it does, but I don't think we'll get attack our downed friend for a free crit transfer.
This could be a way to transfer's a rogue's sneak attack. Couldn't it?
The cloud rune explicitly states it transfers all effects, and damage is an effect.
Is it? An 'effect' would seem to be something apart from the damage. Per the PHB:
3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would agree that the roll is final when the reaction is used, so it's nice to get around disadvantages or to redirect advantages. Heck, it could be good for baiting out an enemy's AoO for redirection to their ally. As for the unconscious condition's crit transferring, I don't think it transfers the crit since it's not an effect of the attack but an effect of being unconscious that causes it. Maybe someone has a good argument why it does, but I don't think we'll get attack our downed friend for a free crit transfer.
This could be a way to transfer's a rogue's sneak attack. Couldn't it?
The cloud rune explicitly states it transfers all effects, and damage is an effect. Critting increases the damage you will deal when you roll the damage.
It works like this: You hit, crit, and pick up your damage dice. The opposing Rune Knight transfers the hit, so you ask if the hit roll still hits. If it does, you roll the damage dice you're already holding.
Would you say Hex's and Hunter's Mark's damage also transfers? I think the unconscious crit is like those spell effects' trigger.
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Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
It works like this: You hit, crit, and pick up your damage dice. The opposing Rune Knight transfers the hit, so you ask if the hit roll still hits. If it does, you roll the damage dice you're already holding.
Except that isn't true because the red part doesn't happen.
As the the "hit" is the trigger you'll get: You hit -> rune is invoked -> new hit check -> dmg roll (and additional effects)
What brings this question up is the rune "can transfer the attack's effects" and the effect is "any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature" and the trigger of the reaction for the rune is "hit by an attack roll".
Yea I can't see the effects of a condition be considered to be an effect of the attack itself. However I could possibly see it working in the opposite way. i.e if the attack is transferred to a creature with an auto-crit condition then you would qualify regardless of range (as long as you are within the 5ft of the original target ofc). Not a slam-dunk case but IMO a much more viable option than your original idea.
Would you say Hex's and Hunter's Mark's damage also transfers? I think the unconscious crit is like those spell effects' trigger.
No, it's transferring the damage and effects from the attack, not from other spells triggered by the attack.
The Mark or the Hex are still on the original creature, not the one you switched the attack to. If the new target has a Hex or Hunter's Mark on them though, they would activate as normal on a hit.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would agree that the roll is final when the reaction is used, so it's nice to get around disadvantages or to redirect advantages. Heck, it could be good for baiting out an enemy's AoO for redirection to their ally. As for the unconscious condition's crit transferring, I don't think it transfers the crit since it's not an effect of the attack but an effect of being unconscious that causes it. Maybe someone has a good argument why it does, but I don't think we'll get attack our downed friend for a free crit transfer.
This could be a way to transfer's a rogue's sneak attack. Couldn't it?
The cloud rune explicitly states it transfers all effects, and damage is an effect.
Is it? An 'effect' would seem to be something apart from the damage. Per the PHB:
3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
WOTC doesn't write rules as well as you're theorizing they do. The text you bolded here doesn't mean, even if WOTC was being very careful about implications, that damage isn't an effect - it only implies damage isn't a special effect. And that inference can't be drawn - WOTC never, under any circumstance in 5E, writes rules that "tightly". The way they consistently write rules is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and furthermore, rules text may include redundancies - for example, a teleport effect may specify you teleport with your clothing, even though all teleport effects teleport you with your clothing unless they say they don't. So for both reasons, the text you quote here does not establish that damage is not an effect. On the contrary, spells like globe of invulnerability only work as clearly intended if damage is an effect, and 5E is always written using "plain English", which means damage is an effect unless we're told it's not, since that's what the word effect means, and we're never told it's not.
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I have two questions regarding Cloud Rune.
1. This question is in regards to two combined effects, paralyzed/unconscious auto critical hit and the Cloud Rune's reaction. Does the critical hit transfer to the new target, assuming the hit wouldn't have been a critical hit unless the original target was paralyzed/unconscious? What brings this question up is the rune "can transfer the attack's effects" and the effect is "any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature" and the trigger of the reaction for the rune is "hit by an attack roll".
2. Do you know the damage of the attack prior to using the reaction?
For your convenience, below is the description that's in question for Cloud Rune from the Fighter subclass:
In addition, when you or a creature you can see within 30 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker. The chosen creature becomes the target of the attack, using the same roll. This magic can transfer the attack’s effects regardless of the attack’s range. Once you invoke this rune, you can’t do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
I just wanna know if letting my ally get downed for a free critical hit is a good idea (this is a bad idea socially) or if I should just use it to save them.
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
Oooh interesting one.
"Using the same roll" implies you take the number and check it against this new target. Therefore any auto-crit business against the first target isn't included, and if this new creature is paralyzed/unconscious it is only a critical if they are ALSO next to the attacker.
The damage should be rolled after using this ability, so you wouldn't know how much you've got before making your choice to switch target. If you're using a VTT then you might know by accident.
For the first point, would you say that the crit isn't an effect of the attack but an effect of being hit, then?
Also, under "Making an attack" it says this under step 3. "On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular Attack has rules that specify otherwise." Would that mean the reaction falls under "rules that specify otherwise"?
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
I would say the crit is an effect of the condition, not of the attack. So if you switched the attack from a non-paralyzed target to a paralyzed one (the opposite of your scenario), the attack would become an auto-crit regardless of the roll if within 5 ft.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This is a good way of hitting a target you might have disadvantage against though. Or transferring advantage against a down enemy to a stronger enemy with high AC.
But yeah, as a reaction this occurs immediately after the trigger (the hit), postponing the damage roll.
Say the new target has the Lucky feat. Would they be able to use it against this ability? I would think they can't.
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
we have a disagreement, it appears.
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
I see no disagreement
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
"Therefore any auto-crit business against the first target isn't included..." vs. " Yes, the cloud rune can transfer the critical hit" isn't in disagreement?
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
I would also think they can't. The roll has already been completed abd the timing is missed.
Goes on to mention that the crit might miss but is still a crit vs Goes on to say that the transfered attack is a crit only if the new target also turns hits into auto-crits.
Ok read the whole thing, it is still a disagreement. Have you read any part of either post before commenting? Or did you just misunderstand what was said?
Best to ignore the person. They're not seeing what has been put before them.
I would agree that the roll is final when the reaction is used, so it's nice to get around disadvantages or to redirect advantages. Heck, it could be good for baiting out an enemy's AoO for redirection to their ally. As for the unconscious condition's crit transferring, I don't think it transfers the crit since it's not an effect of the attack but an effect of being unconscious that causes it. Maybe someone has a good argument why it does, but I don't think we'll get attack our downed friend for a free crit transfer.
This could be a way to transfer's a rogue's sneak attack. Couldn't it?
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
Where, exactly, is the disagreement?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The cloud rune explicitly states it transfers all effects, and damage is an effect. Critting increases the damage you will deal when you roll the damage.
It works like this: You hit, crit, and pick up your damage dice. The opposing Rune Knight transfers the hit, so you ask if the hit roll still hits. If it does, you roll the damage dice you're already holding.
In the part that is answering the question posed by the OP.
If 2 people were asked if they had Saturday off, 1 said "yes, I have Saturday and Sunday off," and the other said "no I have Sunday through tuesday off,", would you conclude that they both have Sunday off so must have the same answer? Because that is exactly what you did in this case.
Is it? An 'effect' would seem to be something apart from the damage. Per the PHB:
3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Would you say Hex's and Hunter's Mark's damage also transfers? I think the unconscious crit is like those spell effects' trigger.
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
Except that isn't true because the red part doesn't happen.
As the the "hit" is the trigger you'll get: You hit -> rune is invoked -> new hit check -> dmg roll (and additional effects)
Yea I can't see the effects of a condition be considered to be an effect of the attack itself. However I could possibly see it working in the opposite way. i.e if the attack is transferred to a creature with an auto-crit condition then you would qualify regardless of range (as long as you are within the 5ft of the original target ofc). Not a slam-dunk case but IMO a much more viable option than your original idea.
No, it's transferring the damage and effects from the attack, not from other spells triggered by the attack.
The Mark or the Hex are still on the original creature, not the one you switched the attack to. If the new target has a Hex or Hunter's Mark on them though, they would activate as normal on a hit.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
WOTC doesn't write rules as well as you're theorizing they do. The text you bolded here doesn't mean, even if WOTC was being very careful about implications, that damage isn't an effect - it only implies damage isn't a special effect. And that inference can't be drawn - WOTC never, under any circumstance in 5E, writes rules that "tightly". The way they consistently write rules is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and furthermore, rules text may include redundancies - for example, a teleport effect may specify you teleport with your clothing, even though all teleport effects teleport you with your clothing unless they say they don't. So for both reasons, the text you quote here does not establish that damage is not an effect. On the contrary, spells like globe of invulnerability only work as clearly intended if damage is an effect, and 5E is always written using "plain English", which means damage is an effect unless we're told it's not, since that's what the word effect means, and we're never told it's not.