Elroy is a level 5 character. He has 3 levels of druid, and 2 of cleric. His group uses the optional multiclassing rules from the PHB. Rules as Written, Elroy has two third level spell slots. If you disagree, you are objectively wrong: here's why. Ground rules, I'm only concerned with RAW. RAI or RAF there's more to say, but this isn't the place or time. My goal here isn't to tell people their way is wrong, or that they need to do it right, only to help them recognize what the actual rules are and how to understand them correctly.
I. SPELL CASTING SUI GENERIS
The Player’s Handbook explicitly states that Known and Prepared Spells are a separate mechanic than Spell Slots (PHB 201). Under the section Known and Prepared Spells, it says that some classes have a list of spells they know fixed in their mind. Other casters, including clerics, go through the process of preparing spells. In the next, separate section, “Spell Slots,” it explains the mechanics of the spell slot feature. “Regardless of how many spells a caster knows or prepares, he or she can cast only a limited number of spells before resting… Thus, each spellcasting class's description includes a table showing how many spell slots of each spell level a character can use at each character level.” This is important because it establishes two important things:
1) “Spell Slots” and “Known and Prepared Spells” are not one rule. They are two separate rules.
2) The table in a spellcasting class's description is what controls the number of spell slots.
II) CLERIC AND DRUIDS IN PARTICULAR
Clerics and Druids don’t know spells, they prepare them through prayer and meditation. Both classes prepare spells in the same way. You choose a number of that classes spells equal to their level in that class plus their wisdom mod that they have spell slots for. You choose these spells off the class’s spell list. Unlike Wizards or Rangers, there is no learning of spells at all with these classes, except cantrips. Elroy can select any spell off the druid or cleric list for which he possesses an appropriately leveled spell slot.
III) MULTICLASS CASTING
Per the multiclassing rules, once you have two classes with the spellcasting feature you use the multiclass rules for spellcasting. This replaces two mechanics for Elroy: Spell Preparation and his number of Spell Slots.You determine what spells you know, and what spells you can prepare, the same as a single class cleric or druid. So Elroy prepares his druid spells as a level 2 druid would, and cleric spells as a level 3 cleric would: choosing class level+WIS spells from the class’s spell list that he has spell slots to cast. You use the Multiclass version of the Spell Slot feature to: Tally your caster levels according to the formula and consult the Multiclass Spellcaster table (PHB 165) to see how many spell slots you have of each level. For Elroy, it’s 4 first level, 3 second, and 2 third level spell slots. Learning and preparing spells does not alter your class description, which determines spell slots. The "Spell Slots" multiclass rule does.
IV) ANSWERS TO COMMON OBJECTIONS
Q: Don’t the examples in the PHB show the opposite?
A: The examples used in the PHB with the ranger and wizard multiclass aren’t analogous to a druid or cleric. The Wizard in the example only knows the spells he learned through leveling. Those spells max out at level 2 because the “Learning Spells of Level 1 or Higher” part of the book specifically references what the “Wizard table” shows you have slots for. The multiclassing rules don’t overrule this section. Similarly, Rangers learn spells by leveling up as rangers. Clerics and Druids don’t to level up to learn spells; they they know all class spells at level 1. Further, the section even states that the reason they can’t use the slots is because they don’t know spells of a sufficient level. This is not an issue for cleric or druid.
Q: Didn't Mearls or Crawford say _____?
A: Unless they say it in the Sage Advice Continuum, they've got no special authority. RAW they're just another DM unless and until it's in the Sage Advice Compendium.
You missapplied the rule that says that a multiclassed caster prepares spells as if they were a single classed member of a class. A druid 3 doesn't have MC spell slots.
You missapplied the rule that says that a multiclassed caster prepares spells as if they were a single classed member of a class. A druid 3 doesn't have MC spell slots.
Having spell slots isn't a function of preparing spells. Preparing spells as a single classed member of a class isn't the same as having spell slots like a single classed member of the class. This is why Spells Known and Prepared and Spell Slots are controlled by different rules in the multiclass spellcasting section.
You missapplied the rule that says that a multiclassed caster prepares spells as if they were a single classed member of a class. A druid 3 doesn't have MC spell slots.
Having spell slots isn't a function of preparing spells. Preparing spells as a single classed member of a class isn't the same as having spell slots like a single classed member of the class.
But preparing spells is a function of having spell slots. If you prepare spells based on what spell slots you have available, "prepare spells as a 3rd-level druid" necessarily means "prepare spells based on the spell slots of a 3rd-level druid."
You missapplied the rule that says that a multiclassed caster prepares spells as if they were a single classed member of a class. A druid 3 doesn't have MC spell slots.
Having spell slots isn't a function of preparing spells. Preparing spells as a single classed member of a class isn't the same as having spell slots like a single classed member of the class.
A single classed member of a class only has spellslots as shown in their class table. Anything that you say relying on the multiclass rules does not impact the number or way a single classed character selects spells. The Multiclass spell selection rules tell you that those are the same rules that you use for selecting your spells for each class that your multiclassed character has. I know it is difficult, it has come up on these very forms numerous times.
You missapplied the rule that says that a multiclassed caster prepares spells as if they were a single classed member of a class. A druid 3 doesn't have MC spell slots.
Having spell slots isn't a function of preparing spells. Preparing spells as a single classed member of a class isn't the same as having spell slots like a single classed member of the class.
But preparing spells is a function of having spell slots. If you prepare spells based on what spell slots you have available, "prepare spells as a 3rd-level druid" necessarily means "prepare spells based on the spell slots of a 3rd-level druid."
Preparing spells is a function of having spell slots. Having spell slots is not a function of preparing spells.
You missapplied the rule that says that a multiclassed caster prepares spells as if they were a single classed member of a class. A druid 3 doesn't have MC spell slots.
Having spell slots isn't a function of preparing spells. Preparing spells as a single classed member of a class isn't the same as having spell slots like a single classed member of the class.
But preparing spells is a function of having spell slots. If you prepare spells based on what spell slots you have available, "prepare spells as a 3rd-level druid" necessarily means "prepare spells based on the spell slots of a 3rd-level druid."
Preparing spells is a function of having spell slots. Having spell slots is not a function of preparing spells.
You missapplied the rule that says that a multiclassed caster prepares spells as if they were a single classed member of a class. A druid 3 doesn't have MC spell slots.
Having spell slots isn't a function of preparing spells. Preparing spells as a single classed member of a class isn't the same as having spell slots like a single classed member of the class.
But preparing spells is a function of having spell slots. If you prepare spells based on what spell slots you have available, "prepare spells as a 3rd-level druid" necessarily means "prepare spells based on the spell slots of a 3rd-level druid."
Preparing spells is a function of having spell slots. Having spell slots is not a function of preparing spells.
You missapplied the rule that says that a multiclassed caster prepares spells as if they were a single classed member of a class. A druid 3 doesn't have MC spell slots.
Having spell slots isn't a function of preparing spells. Preparing spells as a single classed member of a class isn't the same as having spell slots like a single classed member of the class.
A single classed member of a class only has spellslots as shown in their class table. Anything that you say relying on the multiclass rules does not impact the number or way a single classed character selects spells. The Multiclass spell selection rules tell you that those are the same rules that you use for selecting your spells for each class that your multiclassed character has. I know it is difficult, it has come up on these very forms numerous times.
The rules for selecting spells are not the rules that give you spell slots.
You missapplied the rule that says that a multiclassed caster prepares spells as if they were a single classed member of a class. A druid 3 doesn't have MC spell slots.
Having spell slots isn't a function of preparing spells. Preparing spells as a single classed member of a class isn't the same as having spell slots like a single classed member of the class.
But preparing spells is a function of having spell slots. If you prepare spells based on what spell slots you have available, "prepare spells as a 3rd-level druid" necessarily means "prepare spells based on the spell slots of a 3rd-level druid."
Preparing spells is a function of having spell slots. Having spell slots is not a function of preparing spells.
True, but also entirely irrelevant to my post.
It's very relevant. If having spell slots is not a function of spell preparation, then the rule that changes spell preparation leaves the spell slots untouched. Then the more specific rule, multiclass "Spell Slots," controls.
You missapplied the rule that says that a multiclassed caster prepares spells as if they were a single classed member of a class. A druid 3 doesn't have MC spell slots.
Having spell slots isn't a function of preparing spells. Preparing spells as a single classed member of a class isn't the same as having spell slots like a single classed member of the class.
A single classed member of a class only has spellslots as shown in their class table. Anything that you say relying on the multiclass rules does not impact the number or way a single classed character selects spells. The Multiclass spell selection rules tell you that those are the same rules that you use for selecting your spells for each class that your multiclassed character has. I know it is difficult, it has come up on these very forms numerous times.
The rules for selecting spells are not the rules that give you spell slots.
Ah. Yes. Class spellcasting features give you slots. If you are a single classed member of a class, you only have slots that those class levels give you.
You missapplied the rule that says that a multiclassed caster prepares spells as if they were a single classed member of a class. A druid 3 doesn't have MC spell slots.
Having spell slots isn't a function of preparing spells. Preparing spells as a single classed member of a class isn't the same as having spell slots like a single classed member of the class.
A single classed member of a class only has spellslots as shown in their class table. Anything that you say relying on the multiclass rules does not impact the number or way a single classed character selects spells. The Multiclass spell selection rules tell you that those are the same rules that you use for selecting your spells for each class that your multiclassed character has. I know it is difficult, it has come up on these very forms numerous times.
The rules for selecting spells are not the rules that give you spell slots.
Ah. Yes. Class spellcasting features give you slots. If you are a single classed member of a class, you only have slots that those class levels give you.
Untrue. Per page 201 of the PHB, "Thus, each spellcasting class's description (except that of the warlock) includes a table showing how many spell slots of each spell level a character can use at each character level." It's the class description that gives you slots, not the spellcasting feature. Warlocks have spell slots in the class description and do not have the spellcasting class feature.
A level 3 druid/level 3 cleric can prepare druid spells of the same level as a level 3 druid and cleric spells of the same level as a level 3 cleric per the RAW.
Please do not give level 17 wizards access to every spell in a different class with a single level dip.
A level 3 druid/level 3 cleric can prepare druid spells of the same level as a level 3 druid and cleric spells of the same level as a level 3 cleric per the RAW.
Please do not give level 17 wizards access to every spell in a different class with a single level dip.
RAW druid and cleric can prepare any spell that they have a slot for. The appeal to consequences will be disregarded as having nothing to do with RAW
You missapplied the rule that says that a multiclassed caster prepares spells as if they were a single classed member of a class. A druid 3 doesn't have MC spell slots.
Having spell slots isn't a function of preparing spells. Preparing spells as a single classed member of a class isn't the same as having spell slots like a single classed member of the class.
A single classed member of a class only has spellslots as shown in their class table. Anything that you say relying on the multiclass rules does not impact the number or way a single classed character selects spells. The Multiclass spell selection rules tell you that those are the same rules that you use for selecting your spells for each class that your multiclassed character has. I know it is difficult, it has come up on these very forms numerous times.
The rules for selecting spells are not the rules that give you spell slots.
Ah. Yes. Class spellcasting features give you slots. If you are a single classed member of a class, you only have slots that those class levels give you.
Untrue. Per page 201 of the PHB, "Thus, each spellcasting class's description (except that of the warlock) includes a table showing how many spell slots of each spell level a character can use at each character level." It's the class description that gives you slots, not the spellcasting feature. Warlocks have spell slots in the class description and do not have the spellcasting class feature.
So you are telling me that a Druid 3 has something other than 1st and 2nd level slots? or are you misunderstanding your own statements too? A class's spell description tells you that a druid 3 has 1st and 2nd level slots, right? So if you are a single-classed member of this class, what makes you think you'd have anything but exactly what those rules tell you that you'd have?
A multiclass druid only prepares spells as a single class druid. Preparing spells doesn't decide what spell slots you have. You don't do everything as a single class druid, only what spells you can prepare (any you have a slot for). Unless you think preparing spells is what gives a druid his spell slots, preparing spells as a single class druid has no effect on your spell slots.
A level 3 druid/level 3 cleric can prepare druid spells of the same level as a level 3 druid and cleric spells of the same level as a level 3 cleric per the RAW.
Please do not give level 17 wizards access to every spell in a different class with a single level dip.
RAW druid and cleric can prepare any spell that they have a slot for. The appeal to consequences will be disregarded as having nothing to do with RAW
Please do not disregard my RAW answer to comment on my argument your house rule.
You knew the answer before you asked and are just arguing with the answers you knew you were going to get. Don't ask questions you didn't want the answer to.
It's not RAW that the number of spell slots is a result of spell preparation. Cite the rule if you think it is. By that logic a druid has no spell slots until he prepares spells.
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class
And in the section on preparing spells (from druid, but they're all the same)
You prepare the list of druid spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the druid spell list. When you do so, choose a number of druid spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your druid level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
As you prepare spells as if you were single classed, you must have spell slots available in your single class.
Elroy is a level 5 character. He has 3 levels of druid, and 2 of cleric. His group uses the optional multiclassing rules from the PHB. Rules as Written, Elroy has two third level spell slots. If you disagree, you are objectively wrong: here's why. Ground rules, I'm only concerned with RAW. RAI or RAF there's more to say, but this isn't the place or time. My goal here isn't to tell people their way is wrong, or that they need to do it right, only to help them recognize what the actual rules are and how to understand them correctly.
I. SPELL CASTING SUI GENERIS
The Player’s Handbook explicitly states that Known and Prepared Spells are a separate mechanic than Spell Slots (PHB 201). Under the section Known and Prepared Spells, it says that some classes have a list of spells they know fixed in their mind. Other casters, including clerics, go through the process of preparing spells. In the next, separate section, “Spell Slots,” it explains the mechanics of the spell slot feature. “Regardless of how many spells a caster knows or prepares, he or she can cast only a limited number of spells before resting… Thus, each spellcasting class's description includes a table showing how many spell slots of each spell level a character can use at each character level.” This is important because it establishes two important things:
1) “Spell Slots” and “Known and Prepared Spells” are not one rule. They are two separate rules.
2) The table in a spellcasting class's description is what controls the number of spell slots.
II) CLERIC AND DRUIDS IN PARTICULAR
Clerics and Druids don’t know spells, they prepare them through prayer and meditation. Both classes prepare spells in the same way. You choose a number of that classes spells equal to their level in that class plus their wisdom mod that they have spell slots for. You choose these spells off the class’s spell list. Unlike Wizards or Rangers, there is no learning of spells at all with these classes, except cantrips. Elroy can select any spell off the druid or cleric list for which he possesses an appropriately leveled spell slot.
III) MULTICLASS CASTING
Per the multiclassing rules, once you have two classes with the spellcasting feature you use the multiclass rules for spellcasting. This replaces two mechanics for Elroy: Spell Preparation and his number of Spell Slots.You determine what spells you know, and what spells you can prepare, the same as a single class cleric or druid. So Elroy prepares his druid spells as a level 2 druid would, and cleric spells as a level 3 cleric would: choosing class level+WIS spells from the class’s spell list that he has spell slots to cast. You use the Multiclass version of the Spell Slot feature to: Tally your caster levels according to the formula and consult the Multiclass Spellcaster table (PHB 165) to see how many spell slots you have of each level. For Elroy, it’s 4 first level, 3 second, and 2 third level spell slots. Learning and preparing spells does not alter your class description, which determines spell slots. The "Spell Slots" multiclass rule does.
IV) ANSWERS TO COMMON OBJECTIONS
Q: Don’t the examples in the PHB show the opposite?
A: The examples used in the PHB with the ranger and wizard multiclass aren’t analogous to a druid or cleric. The Wizard in the example only knows the spells he learned through leveling. Those spells max out at level 2 because the “Learning Spells of Level 1 or Higher” part of the book specifically references what the “Wizard table” shows you have slots for. The multiclassing rules don’t overrule this section. Similarly, Rangers learn spells by leveling up as rangers. Clerics and Druids don’t to level up to learn spells; they they know all class spells at level 1. Further, the section even states that the reason they can’t use the slots is because they don’t know spells of a sufficient level. This is not an issue for cleric or druid.
Q: Didn't Mearls or Crawford say _____?
A: Unless they say it in the Sage Advice Continuum, they've got no special authority. RAW they're just another DM unless and until it's in the Sage Advice Compendium.
You missapplied the rule that says that a multiclassed caster prepares spells as if they were a single classed member of a class. A druid 3 doesn't have MC spell slots.
Having spell slots isn't a function of preparing spells. Preparing spells as a single classed member of a class isn't the same as having spell slots like a single classed member of the class. This is why Spells Known and Prepared and Spell Slots are controlled by different rules in the multiclass spellcasting section.
But preparing spells is a function of having spell slots. If you prepare spells based on what spell slots you have available, "prepare spells as a 3rd-level druid" necessarily means "prepare spells based on the spell slots of a 3rd-level druid."
A single classed member of a class only has spellslots as shown in their class table. Anything that you say relying on the multiclass rules does not impact the number or way a single classed character selects spells. The Multiclass spell selection rules tell you that those are the same rules that you use for selecting your spells for each class that your multiclassed character has. I know it is difficult, it has come up on these very forms numerous times.
Preparing spells is a function of having spell slots. Having spell slots is not a function of preparing spells.
True, but also entirely irrelevant to my post.
And having spell slots is a function of class.
The rules for selecting spells are not the rules that give you spell slots.
And also not all spellcasters, creatures with spell slots, or creatures that cast spells "prepare spells".... or am I missing the point?
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
It's very relevant. If having spell slots is not a function of spell preparation, then the rule that changes spell preparation leaves the spell slots untouched. Then the more specific rule, multiclass "Spell Slots," controls.
Ah. Yes. Class spellcasting features give you slots. If you are a single classed member of a class, you only have slots that those class levels give you.
Untrue. Per page 201 of the PHB, "Thus, each spellcasting class's description (except that of the warlock) includes a table showing how many spell slots of each spell level a character can use at each character level." It's the class description that gives you slots, not the spellcasting feature. Warlocks have spell slots in the class description and do not have the spellcasting class feature.
A level 3 druid/level 3 cleric can prepare druid spells of the same level as a level 3 druid and cleric spells of the same level as a level 3 cleric per the RAW.
Please do not give level 17 wizards access to every spell in a different class with a single level dip.
RAW druid and cleric can prepare any spell that they have a slot for. The appeal to consequences will be disregarded as having nothing to do with RAW
So you are telling me that a Druid 3 has something other than 1st and 2nd level slots? or are you misunderstanding your own statements too? A class's spell description tells you that a druid 3 has 1st and 2nd level slots, right? So if you are a single-classed member of this class, what makes you think you'd have anything but exactly what those rules tell you that you'd have?
A multiclass druid only prepares spells as a single class druid. Preparing spells doesn't decide what spell slots you have. You don't do everything as a single class druid, only what spells you can prepare (any you have a slot for). Unless you think preparing spells is what gives a druid his spell slots, preparing spells as a single class druid has no effect on your spell slots.
Please do not disregard my RAW answer to comment on my argument your house rule.
You knew the answer before you asked and are just arguing with the answers you knew you were going to get. Don't ask questions you didn't want the answer to.
It's not RAW that the number of spell slots is a result of spell preparation. Cite the rule if you think it is. By that logic a druid has no spell slots until he prepares spells.
The obvious response is
And in the section on preparing spells (from druid, but they're all the same)
As you prepare spells as if you were single classed, you must have spell slots available in your single class.