It's not RAW that the number of spell slots is a result of spell preparation. Cite the rule if you think it is. By that logic a druid has no spell slots until he prepares spells.
Preparing and Casting Spells
The Druid table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your druid spells of 1st level and higher.
It is identically RAW that a single classed druid gets slots based on the druid table.
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class
And in the section on preparing spells (from druid, but they're all the same)
You prepare the list of druid spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the druid spell list. When you do so, choose a number of druid spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your druid level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
As you prepare spells as if you were single classed, you must have spell slots available in your single class.
Preparing as a druid doesn't say anything about how to determine your number of spell slots. All we have to do is determine which spells we know and can prepare as druids. The druid's preparation of spells is not what gives him spell slots, the class description is.
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class
And in the section on preparing spells (from druid, but they're all the same)
You prepare the list of druid spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the druid spell list. When you do so, choose a number of druid spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your druid level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
As you prepare spells as if you were single classed, you must have spell slots available in your single class.
That's not rules as written, that's just your interpretation of them. Am I to believe that the class description's existence and what is says is caused by preparing spells?
I think it would be good advice for you to critically reread the “Preparing and Casting Spells“ section of the druid and cleric.
I did, and nothing in those sections decides your number of spell slots. It just redirects you to the class description, which the multiclassing spell preparation rules leave untouched. However, the multiclass spell slot rules do specify changes, and since the specific trumps the general (especially here, where everything but the specific is silent) multiclass controls.
The Druid table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your druid spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these druid spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
You prepare the list of druid spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the druid spell list. When you do so, choose a number of druid spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your druid level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
For example, if you are a 3rd-level druid, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With a Wisdom of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination. If you prepare the 1st-level spell cure wounds, you can cast it using a 1st-level or 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn’t remove it from your list of prepared spells.
Are you telling me that a single-classed third level druid prepares spells differently than the exact example in the rules? Because that is what would be required for you to claim that a multi-classed druid prepares its druid spells differently, since it prepares its druid spells as if it were a single-classed member of its class.
Are you telling me that a single-classed third level druid prepares spells differently than the exact example in the rules? Because that is what would be required for you to claim that a multi-classed druid prepares its druid spells differently, since it prepares its druid spells as if it were a single-classed member of its class.
The class table isn't part of "preparing." That has to do with casting, as seen by the plain text of that paragraph. Preparing isn't even mentioned until the second paragraph.
What does that second paragraph sayabout preparing? Does it mention multiclassing rules? If not then what slots does a single classed member of a class have?
Does maybe another part of that same quote help you to figure that out?
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class
And in the section on preparing spells (from druid, but they're all the same)
You prepare the list of druid spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the druid spell list. When you do so, choose a number of druid spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your druid level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
As you prepare spells as if you were single classed, you must have spell slots available in your single class.
Preparing spells doesn't cause your spell slots. None of that rule you copied does.
What does that second paragraph sayabout preparing? Does it mention multiclassing rules? If not then what slots does a single classed member of a class have?
Does maybe another part of that same quote help you to figure that out?
Page 201 of the PHB, the Spell Slots section (notably distinct from the "Known and Prepared Spells" section) refers you to the class description for your number of spell slots.
Not in the context of spell preparation, which is all that is relevant for multiclass spellcasters as far as acting as a single class. No need to waste time on red herrings.
Yes, and what is on that table is modified by the multiclass spell slot rule.
No the class table stays the same when you multiclass, you just use a different table for your character sheet. A single classed druid does not use the multiclass spell slot table.
Page 201 of the PHB, the Spell Slots section (notably distinct from the "Known and Prepared Spells" section) refers you to the class description for your number of spell slots.
What are you even talking about here? We don't have page numbers here and nothing in the multiclassing rules says "class description," and the only mention in the classes chapter refers to subclasses. As far as I can tell this is just a lie.
[Edit]Found it. Spellcasting chapter. And it doesn't really apply to the argument. What spell slots are and how prepared and learned spells are different doesn't do anything to the class feature or multiclassing rules.
Elroy is a level 5 character. He has 3 levels of druid, and 2 of cleric. His group uses the optional multiclassing rules from the PHB. Rules as Written, Elroy has two third level spell slots.
I don't.... I don't understand. No one disagrees with this. P164 of the PHB is very abundantly clear on this. There are bits in the RAW which are impossible to really follow for how those slots are used, but there's no debate at all on how many slots Elroy has, and of what level. Why are you posting this?
You aren’t looking for rules understanding or providing new insight, you are just trying to bully people who don’t agree with your incorrect reading of the rules on a topic that has been well discussed and is understood by most members of the community.
There is nothing special about the wording of spells prepared casters over known. Both use terminology about choosing spells based on slots in their class tables.
Multiclass rules tell you to choose spells as if you were a single classed member of that class. That means you rely solely on the rules of each spellcasting class to determine its spell selections. Try to remember that single classed characters are not multiclassed.
Each class tells you that you use its own class table to select spells. A single classed caster is self-contained: nothing beyond its class rules are required to determine what spells it can select. No class tells you otherwise. It is not a red herring to point this out, since you’ve literally been told to rely on those class rules.
This is probably the most important from a literal readabilty of the rules point of view. The multiclass rules give you spell slots after you are told to select spells. This is especially important because context is relevant. In the context of selecting your spells, you have not yet been told about multi-class spell slots. Yes, reading things holistically can be useful, but you still must be careful to maintain context. The rules do not ask you to rely on text that they haven’t directed you to. If you needed information about MC slots before you select spells, you would have that information before being directed to select spells.The game isn’t playing rules hide and seek with you.
(bonus) There’s an example. You haven’t shown a meaningful difference between known and prepared casters that would make the example irrelevant.
(bonus) you can try it yourself. Someone else already said this one, but you could build the character. You won’t be preparing conjure animals, spiritual weapon, or spirit guardian on a druid 3/cleric 2 on D&DBeyond.
It is identically RAW that a single classed druid gets slots based on the druid table.
Preparing as a druid doesn't say anything about how to determine your number of spell slots. All we have to do is determine which spells we know and can prepare as druids. The druid's preparation of spells is not what gives him spell slots, the class description is.
Yes, and what is on that table is modified by the multiclass spell slot rule.
I think it would be good advice for you to critically reread the “Preparing and Casting Spells“ section of the druid and cleric.
It is not for a single classed member of a class, which is expressly how the rules tell you to select spells.
That's not rules as written, that's just your interpretation of them. Am I to believe that the class description's existence and what is says is caused by preparing spells?
I did, and nothing in those sections decides your number of spell slots. It just redirects you to the class description, which the multiclassing spell preparation rules leave untouched. However, the multiclass spell slot rules do specify changes, and since the specific trumps the general (especially here, where everything but the specific is silent) multiclass controls.
Are you telling me that a single-classed third level druid prepares spells differently than the exact example in the rules? Because that is what would be required for you to claim that a multi-classed druid prepares its druid spells differently, since it prepares its druid spells as if it were a single-classed member of its class.
The class table isn't part of "preparing." That has to do with casting, as seen by the plain text of that paragraph. Preparing isn't even mentioned until the second paragraph.
What does that second paragraph say about preparing? Does it mention multiclassing rules? If not then what slots does a single classed member of a class have?
Does maybe another part of that same quote help you to figure that out?
Preparing spells doesn't cause your spell slots. None of that rule you copied does.
Page 201 of the PHB, the Spell Slots section (notably distinct from the "Known and Prepared Spells" section) refers you to the class description for your number of spell slots.
Don’t dodge the question. Do the druid rules mention those spell slot rules from the multiclassing section?
Not in the context of spell preparation, which is all that is relevant for multiclass spellcasters as far as acting as a single class. No need to waste time on red herrings.
I'm confused. What is the point of this thread? Just make Elroy on DnD Beyond and try to do whatever it is you're arguing about.
No the class table stays the same when you multiclass, you just use a different table for your character sheet. A single classed druid does not use the multiclass spell slot table.
What are you even talking about here? We don't have page numbers here and nothing in the multiclassing rules says "class description," and the only mention in the classes chapter refers to subclasses. As far as I can tell this is just a lie.[Edit]Found it. Spellcasting chapter. And it doesn't really apply to the argument. What spell slots are and how prepared and learned spells are different doesn't do anything to the class feature or multiclassing rules.
The point of this thread is: "I don't agree with this rule, who's with me? No you're all wrong and I'm right!"
I don't.... I don't understand. No one disagrees with this. P164 of the PHB is very abundantly clear on this. There are bits in the RAW which are impossible to really follow for how those slots are used, but there's no debate at all on how many slots Elroy has, and of what level. Why are you posting this?
I mean, that is what this entire thread is.
You aren’t looking for rules understanding or providing new insight, you are just trying to bully people who don’t agree with your incorrect reading of the rules on a topic that has been well discussed and is understood by most members of the community.