So .. is Proficiency bonus a class feature? It's derived from class levels, but not any specific class (much like mult-class spellcasting, in it's own way).
So ... should I also substitute my Proficiency bonus in the attack calculations when I change to a different form?
No guesswork required:
If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So .. is Proficiency bonus a class feature? It's derived from class levels, but not any specific class (much like mult-class spellcasting, in it's own way).
So ... should I also substitute my Proficiency bonus in the attack calculations when I change to a different form?
Yes. Your numerical proficiency bonus appears in your "Druid Table." The PHB Chapter 3 Classes introduction makes clear that the "___ Table" portions of each class entry are a summary of the benefits of your features, followed by a "Class Features" section which provides a "detailed explanation" of the same features.
Your class gives you a variety of special features, such as a fighter’s mastery of weapons and armor, and a wizard’s spells. At low levels, your class gives you only two or three features, but as you advance in level you gain more and your existing features often improve. Each class entry in this chapter includes a table summarizing the benefits you gain at every level, and a detailed explanation of each one.
Your proficiency bonus, as well as the specific weapon, armor, skill, tool, and saving throw proficiencies that your class, race, background, and other sources provide, are features that you retain the benefit of. The Wildshape rule does have specific directions about how proficiency bonuses interact for skills and saving throws when the Beast would also provide that proficiency (which is really needlessly complex, but seems to be a hamfisted attempt to let you pick up unlabeled 'expertise' or misc. bonuses that some beasts may have for some skills), but also for other attacks in general (even if arguably only Attack action attacks and not statblock actions), you do generally retain the "benefit" of your proficiency bonus.
If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
Careful with that; that's talking about skills and saving throws, and there could be edge cases where simplifying that to apply to other proficiency bonus contexts is incorrect.
It seems that the proficiency bonus multiclassing rule would not apply to single-classed characters. Neither Ch. 1 or Ch. 6 rules calll PB a class feature, but Ch. 1 does say that it is found in your class table. On the other hand, CH 1 also does say "The Character Advancement table summarizes the XP you need to advance in levels from level 1 through level 20, and the proficiency bonus for a character of that level."
MC PB is no less a class feature than MC Spellcasting. But even if it were transformed into an “other source” feature when multiclassing, wildshape retains “other source” features too.
The hidden logic for creature attacks appear to be
Attack Bonus/Damage Bonus: usually Strength+PB/Strength, sometimes Dexterity+PB/Dexterity.
Escape DC for grapple: passive strength check, sometimes functioning as if proficient (as if monster has Athletics). Example: a Marilith has an escape DC of 19.
Save DC against knockdown effects might be either a Strength spell save (Example: Ancient Black Dragon wing attack: DC is 8 +7 (PB) +8 (strength bonus) = 23) or a passive Strength check (Example: Tarrasque).
Save DC against mental effects such as frightened are a Charisma spell save. Example: Ancient Black Dragon frightful presence: DC is 8 +7 (PB) +4 (charisma bonus) = 19.
Save DC against poison, breath weapon, etc, is a Constitution spell save. Example: Ancient Black Dragon breath weapon: DC is 8 +7 (PB) +7 (constitution bonus) = 22.
It's actually not such hidden logic at all, the Monster Manual Introduction makes clear that creatures have proficiency bonuses set by their CR, and apply their ability scores as modifiers to their skills and actions. It's just, when their natural weapons do something funky like use dexterity instead of strength, or they have unproffcient attack actions in their statblock, or they have a special bonus or 'expertise'-type effect to a skill... that creature block won't give that any sort of general feature label like "Finesse" to explain what's happening, they just show you the math.
Every monster has six ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) and corresponding modifiers. For more information on ability scores and how they’re used in play, see the Player’s Handbook.
A skill bonus is the sum of a monster’s relevant ability modifier and its proficiency bonus, which is determined by the monster’s challenge rating (as shown in the Proficiency Bonus by Challenge Rating table). Other modifiers might apply. For instance, a monster might have a larger-than-expected bonus (usually double its proficiency bonus) to account for its heightened expertise.
There absolutely are some oddball monsters that throw that out the window and just have bizarre math that must include some sort of unexplained static modifier that PHB Chapters 7-10 can't quite explain, creatures that read like they were built with the DMG ad hoc creature creation guidelines rather than with the system that most of the rest of the MM plays with. I don't think any of those creatures are Beasts, however, so for the purpose of this conversation we can safely set them aside.
Wildshape is always temporary. Your level up for your character is more permanent.
If you are under the effects of a Fly spell, and then wildshape into a bear. Can you continue to fly?
Yes, while the duration of the effect remains, you can fly.
If you are under the effects of a Barkskin spell, and wildshape into a horse, is your AC 16?
Yes, while the duration of the effect remains, your minimum AC is 16.
The effects continue while the duration remains. If your argument is that ASIs are permanent, then, their effect persists indefinitely. As such, we can ask the same question as these others. If you are under the effect of an ASI that increases your strength by 2, and then wildshape into a wolf, is your strength still increased by 2?
Yes, while the duration of the effect remains, your strength is increased by 2.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Wildshape is always temporary. Your level up for your character is more permanent.
If you are under the effects of a Fly spell, and then wildshape into a bear. Can you continue to fly?
Yes, while the duration of the effect remains, you can fly.
If you are under the effects of a Barkskin spell, and wildshape into a horse, is your AC 16?
Yes, while the duration of the effect remains, your minimum AC is 16.
The effects continue while the duration remains. If your argument is that ASIs are permanent, then, their effect persists indefinitely. As such, we can ask the same question as these others. If you are under the effect of an ASI that increases your strength by 2, and then wildshape into a wolf, is your strength still increased by 2?
Yes, while the duration of the effect remains, your strength is increased by 2.
Someone once told me that effects with a duration tell you what the duration is.
However, the wildshape rules state: "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
Beast forms have fixed stat blocks for each specific form. One could argue that, as a result, they are NOT physically capable of changing their stats while characters are. As a result, ASIs, although a class feature, are not applied to beast forms since they are not physically capable of changing their stats.
In addition, the same reasoning can be applied to racial features. Is a wild shaped halfling druid able to use the Lucky feature of the race to re-roll 1's? Many DMs might allow it. However, the ability score increases listed for the race are as much a feature of the race as the other abilities. The logic would be that if ANY class feature allowed stat adjustments would apply to wild shapes then so should Ability Score Increases provided by race since in terms of logical wording there is no difference in race and class features in the description of the wild shape ability.
As a result, I would tend to conclude that wild shape stat increases due to race or class aren't allowed since the beast shapes are not physically capable if changing their stats. They are what they are.
Wildshape is always temporary. Your level up for your character is more permanent.
If you are under the effects of a Fly spell, and then wildshape into a bear. Can you continue to fly?
Yes, while the duration of the effect remains, you can fly.
If you are under the effects of a Barkskin spell, and wildshape into a horse, is your AC 16?
Yes, while the duration of the effect remains, your minimum AC is 16.
The effects continue while the duration remains. If your argument is that ASIs are permanent, then, their effect persists indefinitely. As such, we can ask the same question as these others. If you are under the effect of an ASI that increases your strength by 2, and then wildshape into a wolf, is your strength still increased by 2?
Yes, while the duration of the effect remains, your strength is increased by 2.
Someone once told me that effects with a duration tell you what the duration is.
Oh I agree. See the bolded bit. That is the inevitable consequence of taking something someone says at face value, and discussing the consequences of doing so. Occasionally someone might mistake it as your own opinion. My argument was not that it is permanent. But if that is someone's argument? See above.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
One could argue that, as a result, they are NOT physically capable of changing their stats while characters are. As a result, ASIs, although a class feature, are not applied to beast forms since they are not physically capable of changing their stats.
This. This is indeed the strongest argument against keeping ASIs in wildshape form. If the DM feels that the new form cannot physically be capable of having a change in stats, and they rule that they're unable to do so, that is entirely in line with the RAW. If they rule that they are physically capable of benefiting? And rule they do keep them, that is also in line with the RAW. Whether something is physically capable, or not, does indeed fall squarely into a DM call. So what they decide, either way, is correct.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The effects continue while the duration remains. If your argument is that ASIs are permanent, then, their effect persists indefinitely.
You could interpret ASIs as instantaneous effects (with lasting consequences), but doing that has weird effects when combined with reincarnate, so that's probably a bad idea. I'm shifting towards thinking that RAW is in fact having ASIs apply, though I strongly doubt it's RAI.
One could argue that, as a result, they are NOT physically capable of changing their stats while characters are. As a result, ASIs, although a class feature, are not applied to beast forms since they are not physically capable of changing their stats.
This. This is indeed the strongest argument against keeping ASIs in wildshape form. If the DM feels that the new form cannot physically be capable of having a change in stats, and they rule that they're unable to do so, that is entirely in line with the RAW. If they rule that they are physically capable of benefiting? And rule they do keep them, that is also in line with the RAW. Whether something is physically capable, or not, does indeed fall squarely into a DM call. So what they decide, either way, is correct.
I agree.
I don't think it's a "good" ruling for a DM to make (and even less so if they also make Halfling Druid Bears not Lucky ), but it's one that's very RAW defensible.
All of the other junk about ASI being one-and-done, or statistics being replaced so hard that features can't actually apply even though they're supposed to... I think those are garbage arguments, that rely on a lot of unwritten language or selective reading. But "you as a bear aren't physically capable of benefiting from an ASI/feat/racial feature that improves "your" constitution" is... within the bounds of RAW.
Its a mean spirited definition of "physically capable," but if you must prevent this interaction, that's your way to do it. The RAI of that clause has been clarified by JC (and for once I believe him) to have been “has a mouth”, etc., and I don’t see why a athletic human would be physically capable of being stronger but a athletic bear would not be physically capable of being stronger… but if you’re willing to look the other way on RAI then sure…
I’m aware of that argument. It isn’t a good one (no textual support), and also doesn’t address feats or racial traits providing similar bonuses, so it doesn’t even really get you where you’re trying to go.
Amusingly, I just noticed that races don't have "features", they have "traits". So this bit for Wildshape:
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.
wouldn't, per a very strict reading of RAW, apply to things like a Dragonborn's inherent +2 STR -- which, again, is a racial trait, not a racial feature.
Dragonborn Traits
Your draconic heritage manifests in a variety of traits you share with other dragonborn.
Ability Score Increase
Your Strength score increases by 2, and your Charisma score increases by 1.
I can only assume the pro-'keep your ASIs' camp will also then be subtracting all STR/DEX/CON mods supplied by the druid's race when the druid Wildshapes, while they are in there homebrewing up that bear.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Remember there is no ongoing bonus of +2 to even apply.
ASI's increase your stats, they don't add an ongoing bonus.
And since your stats have already been increased when you used the ASI... they get replaced by the wildshape beast's stats.
The problem with this particular argument is that racial ASIs can indeed be revoked. Via reincarnate you would lose your original racial ASI and then gain new ones for the new race traits. And, when you lose the original racial traits your loss of the racial ASI does drop your score. So, we know for a fact that the ASI can be stripped, that it wasn't a "Instantaneous" type effect, and instead is simply an ongoing/continuous one.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Amusingly, I just noticed that races don't have "features", they have "traits". So this bit for Wildshape:
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.
wouldn't, per a very strict reading of RAW, apply to things like a Dragonborn's inherent +2 STR -- which, again, is a racial trait, not a racial feature.
Dragonborn Traits
Your draconic heritage manifests in a variety of traits you share with other dragonborn.
Ability Score Increase
Your Strength score increases by 2, and your Charisma score increases by 1.
I can only assume the pro-'keep your ASIs' camp will also then be subtracting all STR/DEX/CON mods supplied by the druid's race when the druid Wildshapes, while they are in there homebrewing up that bear.
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source.
There is no reason to do what you suggest. Not for either side of the argument.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Remember there is no ongoing bonus of +2 to even apply.
ASI's increase your stats, they don't add an ongoing bonus.
And since your stats have already been increased when you used the ASI... they get replaced by the wildshape beast's stats.
The problem with this particular argument is that racial ASIs can indeed be revoked. Via reincarnate you would lose your original racial ASI and then gain new ones for the new race traits. And, when you lose the original racial traits your loss of the racial ASI does drop your score. So, we know for a fact that the ASI can be stripped, that it wasn't a "Instantaneous" type effect, and instead is simply an ongoing/continuous one.
This is wrong. Race has nothing to do with ASIs. If a barbarian 8 dies and is reincarnated as a new race, they are still a barbarian 8, with all of the same class features.
This is wrong. Race has nothing to do with ASIs. If a barbarian 8 dies and is reincarnated as a new race, they are still a barbarian 8, with all of the same class features.
And if ASIs are instantaneous effects, they were applied to the old body so the new one doesn't get any of them...
Remember there is no ongoing bonus of +2 to even apply.
ASI's increase your stats, they don't add an ongoing bonus.
And since your stats have already been increased when you used the ASI... they get replaced by the wildshape beast's stats.
The problem with this particular argument is that racial ASIs can indeed be revoked. Via reincarnate you would lose your original racial ASI and then gain new ones for the new race traits. And, when you lose the original racial traits your loss of the racial ASI does drop your score. So, we know for a fact that the ASI can be stripped, that it wasn't a "Instantaneous" type effect, and instead is simply an ongoing/continuous one.
This is wrong. Race has nothing to do with ASIs. If a barbarian 8 dies and is reincarnated as a new race, they are still a barbarian 8, with all of the same class features.
Races have ASI. Consult any of the available races, read their traits. They all offer an ASI.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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No guesswork required:
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Yes. Your numerical proficiency bonus appears in your "Druid Table." The PHB Chapter 3 Classes introduction makes clear that the "___ Table" portions of each class entry are a summary of the benefits of your features, followed by a "Class Features" section which provides a "detailed explanation" of the same features.
Your proficiency bonus, as well as the specific weapon, armor, skill, tool, and saving throw proficiencies that your class, race, background, and other sources provide, are features that you retain the benefit of. The Wildshape rule does have specific directions about how proficiency bonuses interact for skills and saving throws when the Beast would also provide that proficiency (which is really needlessly complex, but seems to be a hamfisted attempt to let you pick up unlabeled 'expertise' or misc. bonuses that some beasts may have for some skills), but also for other attacks in general (even if arguably only Attack action attacks and not statblock actions), you do generally retain the "benefit" of your proficiency bonus.
Careful with that; that's talking about skills and saving throws, and there could be edge cases where simplifying that to apply to other proficiency bonus contexts is incorrect.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
It seems that the proficiency bonus multiclassing rule would not apply to single-classed characters. Neither Ch. 1 or Ch. 6 rules calll PB a class feature, but Ch. 1 does say that it is found in your class table. On the other hand, CH 1 also does say "The Character Advancement table summarizes the XP you need to advance in levels from level 1 through level 20, and the proficiency bonus for a character of that level."
I'm not sure what to make of that.
MC PB is no less a class feature than MC Spellcasting. But even if it were transformed into an “other source” feature when multiclassing, wildshape retains “other source” features too.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The hidden logic for creature attacks appear to be
It's actually not such hidden logic at all, the Monster Manual Introduction makes clear that creatures have proficiency bonuses set by their CR, and apply their ability scores as modifiers to their skills and actions. It's just, when their natural weapons do something funky like use dexterity instead of strength, or they have unproffcient attack actions in their statblock, or they have a special bonus or 'expertise'-type effect to a skill... that creature block won't give that any sort of general feature label like "Finesse" to explain what's happening, they just show you the math.
There absolutely are some oddball monsters that throw that out the window and just have bizarre math that must include some sort of unexplained static modifier that PHB Chapters 7-10 can't quite explain, creatures that read like they were built with the DMG ad hoc creature creation guidelines rather than with the system that most of the rest of the MM plays with. I don't think any of those creatures are Beasts, however, so for the purpose of this conversation we can safely set them aside.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
If you are under the effects of a Fly spell, and then wildshape into a bear. Can you continue to fly?
Yes, while the duration of the effect remains, you can fly.
If you are under the effects of a Barkskin spell, and wildshape into a horse, is your AC 16?
Yes, while the duration of the effect remains, your minimum AC is 16.
The effects continue while the duration remains. If your argument is that ASIs are permanent, then, their effect persists indefinitely. As such, we can ask the same question as these others. If you are under the effect of an ASI that increases your strength by 2, and then wildshape into a wolf, is your strength still increased by 2?
Yes, while the duration of the effect remains, your strength is increased by 2.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Someone once told me that effects with a duration tell you what the duration is.
I haven't read the entire thread ...
However, the wildshape rules state: "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
Beast forms have fixed stat blocks for each specific form. One could argue that, as a result, they are NOT physically capable of changing their stats while characters are. As a result, ASIs, although a class feature, are not applied to beast forms since they are not physically capable of changing their stats.
In addition, the same reasoning can be applied to racial features. Is a wild shaped halfling druid able to use the Lucky feature of the race to re-roll 1's? Many DMs might allow it. However, the ability score increases listed for the race are as much a feature of the race as the other abilities. The logic would be that if ANY class feature allowed stat adjustments would apply to wild shapes then so should Ability Score Increases provided by race since in terms of logical wording there is no difference in race and class features in the description of the wild shape ability.
As a result, I would tend to conclude that wild shape stat increases due to race or class aren't allowed since the beast shapes are not physically capable if changing their stats. They are what they are.
Oh I agree. See the bolded bit. That is the inevitable consequence of taking something someone says at face value, and discussing the consequences of doing so. Occasionally someone might mistake it as your own opinion. My argument was not that it is permanent. But if that is someone's argument? See above.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This. This is indeed the strongest argument against keeping ASIs in wildshape form. If the DM feels that the new form cannot physically be capable of having a change in stats, and they rule that they're unable to do so, that is entirely in line with the RAW. If they rule that they are physically capable of benefiting? And rule they do keep them, that is also in line with the RAW. Whether something is physically capable, or not, does indeed fall squarely into a DM call. So what they decide, either way, is correct.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You could interpret ASIs as instantaneous effects (with lasting consequences), but doing that has weird effects when combined with reincarnate, so that's probably a bad idea. I'm shifting towards thinking that RAW is in fact having ASIs apply, though I strongly doubt it's RAI.
I agree.
I don't think it's a "good" ruling for a DM to make (and even less so if they also make Halfling Druid Bears not Lucky ), but it's one that's very RAW defensible.
All of the other junk about ASI being one-and-done, or statistics being replaced so hard that features can't actually apply even though they're supposed to... I think those are garbage arguments, that rely on a lot of unwritten language or selective reading. But "you as a bear aren't physically capable of benefiting from an ASI/feat/racial feature that improves "your" constitution" is... within the bounds of RAW.
Its a mean spirited definition of "physically capable," but if you must prevent this interaction, that's your way to do it. The RAI of that clause has been clarified by JC (and for once I believe him) to have been “has a mouth”, etc., and I don’t see why a athletic human would be physically capable of being stronger but a athletic bear would not be physically capable of being stronger… but if you’re willing to look the other way on RAI then sure…
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I’m aware of that argument. It isn’t a good one (no textual support), and also doesn’t address feats or racial traits providing similar bonuses, so it doesn’t even really get you where you’re trying to go.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Amusingly, I just noticed that races don't have "features", they have "traits". So this bit for Wildshape:
wouldn't, per a very strict reading of RAW, apply to things like a Dragonborn's inherent +2 STR -- which, again, is a racial trait, not a racial feature.
I can only assume the pro-'keep your ASIs' camp will also then be subtracting all STR/DEX/CON mods supplied by the druid's race when the druid Wildshapes, while they are in there homebrewing up that bear.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The problem with this particular argument is that racial ASIs can indeed be revoked. Via reincarnate you would lose your original racial ASI and then gain new ones for the new race traits. And, when you lose the original racial traits your loss of the racial ASI does drop your score. So, we know for a fact that the ASI can be stripped, that it wasn't a "Instantaneous" type effect, and instead is simply an ongoing/continuous one.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source.
There is no reason to do what you suggest. Not for either side of the argument.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This is wrong. Race has nothing to do with ASIs. If a barbarian 8 dies and is reincarnated as a new race, they are still a barbarian 8, with all of the same class features.
And if ASIs are instantaneous effects, they were applied to the old body so the new one doesn't get any of them...
Races have ASI. Consult any of the available races, read their traits. They all offer an ASI.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.