💩. foiled again by 5e using the same name for everything.
But you are arguing that ASIs aren't features you get to keep when you change race? When you go from a dragonborn to a hill dwarf, you are saying that you don't just gain a constitution and wisdom increase? You also lose the strength and charisma increases? So clearly when you go from a dragonborn to a bear, you lose your ASIs right?
Curious thing about that is, the wildshape says to keep benefits of race features. Reincarnate says, specifically, you lose race abilities and replace with new ones. Just following the respective instructions.
Compare:
Wildshape: "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
Reincarnate: "It retains the capabilities it had in its original form, except it exchanges its original race for the new one and changes its racial traits accordingly."
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
💩. foiled again by 5e using the same name for everything.
But you are arguing that ASIs aren't features you get to keep when you change race? When you go from a dragonborn to a hill dwarf, you are saying that you don't just gain a constitution and wisdom increase? You also lose the strength and charisma increases? So clearly when you go from a dragonborn to a bear, you lose your ASIs right?
Curious thing about that is, the wildshape says to keep benefits of race features. Reincarnate says, specifically, you lose race abilities and replace with new ones. Just following the respective instructions.
Compare:
Wildshape: "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
Reincarnate: "It retains the capabilities it had in its original form, except it exchanges its original race for the new one and changes its racial traits accordingly."
Yeah, that was a bad argument. Although you can have capabilities that stem from racial traits.
But the fact that race ASIs share a name with other ASIs is problematic in its own right.
The racial bonuses you get... you lose when you are reincarnated as you also gain new bonuses for the new race... your ASIs are permanent changes.
example: you go to level 4 and get an ASI, use it to boost your STR up by 2... this doesn't interact with the rules for reincarnate... you don't lose any ASIs you've applied... only racial bonuses are affected.
Remember: ASI's are class related... racial bonuses are race related. The 2 are not the same. There is one use of the term ASI, it is for class features at certain levels.
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The racial bonuses you get... you lose when you are reincarnated as you also gain new bonuses for the new race... your ASIs are permanent changes.
example: you go to level 4 and get an ASI, use it to boost your STR up by 2... this doesn't interact with the rules for reincarnate... you don't lose any ASIs you've applied... only racial bonuses are affected.
Remember: ASI's are class related... racial bonuses are race related. The 2 are not the same. There is one use of the term ASI, it is for class features at certain levels.
I hate to throw you guys a lifeline, but “Ability Score Increase” and “Ability Score Improvement” are not, in fact, the same feature name :) Unless some races use “Improvement?”
Even if they were, however, we’ve been over in the other thread that ASI pretty much MUST be operating under an unwritten RAI exception to DMG 8, or that DMG 8 just otherwise isn’t really worded correctly to communicate what it’s trying to.
Luckily there is a PHB classes survey out now. I hope EVERYONE on both sides who has posted here and done that survey has left some feedback for WotC about wild shape.
If you don't want things left up to the DM, why bother having one?
If i wanted my character left up to my dm I'd have let him play it.
Yeah I'm fully with you here. Having a vague undefined outcome leads people to create characters that might end up not doing what they expected when they actually get to the table.
Imagine picking a race and putting ASIs into your character physical stats thinking it'll work with your wildshape and then being told otherwise at the table. Neat. That's a potentially scuffed character now. That's not fun.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Really, what do people want changed? Wildshape seems alright to me.
Vagueness and leaving things up to the DM for a start.
There's no vagueness, only people being DRLs (Devil's Rules Lawyers)
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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💩. foiled again by 5e using the same name for everything.
But that is interesting. What happens when you have multiple game features of the same name affecting a character?
Curious thing about that is, the wildshape says to keep benefits of race features. Reincarnate says, specifically, you lose race abilities and replace with new ones. Just following the respective instructions.
Compare:
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Yeah, that was a bad argument. Although you can have capabilities that stem from racial traits.
But the fact that race ASIs share a name with other ASIs is problematic in its own right.
So if ASIs are ongoing bonuses (which you seem to argue for) then the combining game effects rules apply to them?
Actually, I'm not all that interested in pursuing this train of thought. But it does seem problematic.
Ravnodaus
There are no such things as racial ASIs.
The racial bonuses you get... you lose when you are reincarnated as you also gain new bonuses for the new race... your ASIs are permanent changes.
example: you go to level 4 and get an ASI, use it to boost your STR up by 2... this doesn't interact with the rules for reincarnate... you don't lose any ASIs you've applied... only racial bonuses are affected.
Remember: ASI's are class related... racial bonuses are race related. The 2 are not the same. There is one use of the term ASI, it is for class features at certain levels.
Un(?)fortunately, that's not true at all:
I hate to throw you guys a lifeline, but “Ability Score Increase” and “Ability Score Improvement” are not, in fact, the same feature name :) Unless some races use “Improvement?”
Even if they were, however, we’ve been over in the other thread that ASI pretty much MUST be operating under an unwritten RAI exception to DMG 8, or that DMG 8 just otherwise isn’t really worded correctly to communicate what it’s trying to.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Luckily there is a PHB classes survey out now. I hope EVERYONE on both sides who has posted here and done that survey has left some feedback for WotC about wild shape.
Vagueness and leaving things up to the DM for a start.
If you don't want things left up to the DM, why bother having one?
<Insert clever signature here>
If i wanted my character left up to my dm I'd have let him play it.
Yeah I'm fully with you here. Having a vague undefined outcome leads people to create characters that might end up not doing what they expected when they actually get to the table.
Imagine picking a race and putting ASIs into your character physical stats thinking it'll work with your wildshape and then being told otherwise at the table. Neat. That's a potentially scuffed character now. That's not fun.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
When most player options don’t rely on the DM’s whims, the ones that do feel all the worse.
There's no vagueness, only people being DRLs (Devil's Rules Lawyers)
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)