I mean, the epic handshake does have disorienting side-effects when witnessed.
EDIT: Ok, having now read the pages actually discussed, it seems to me the OP's question is predicated on inspired cherry picking that misses the rest of the tree. The area in question is a section called Hoard Magic Items where the scaling, so to speak, is discussed, and then the Horde Magic Items are delineated. What the OP wants to do is treat these items as sort of templates to attach to other items, but that's over reach and in now way is authorized in the section titled Hoard Magic Items. I mean you could do that, but I think as W1ldb!ll proferred and others seem to agree, that's literally going beyond the bounds of the way the game should work. A DM is free to let their players play on godmode if that's your playstyle, but that does not seem to be encouraged at all by the way these particular magic items, called Hoard Magic Items, have been introduced.
What's more perplexing, or frustrating, or resignedly typical WotC D&D design studio messing up the end game, is that the Hoard Magic Items have no place on the hoard generating tables at the end of the book. It all links back to the DMG. I mean I can understand ducking Tasha's or Xanathar's but it just seems poor editorial work to not incorporate the magic items that are specifically found in Dragon Hoards into your Dragon Hoard generation table. Some folks have pointed out the redundancy of these tables, that's definitely correct to me without demonstrating how these could populate a hoard table.
It tells us that hoard items are different to regular magic items, in the chapter intro (emphasis mine):
“Hoard Items” introduces a new kind of magic items, which siphon the magical energy associated with a dragon’s hoard.
And in the first paragraph of the hoard items section:
Certain magic items can absorb the ambient magic of a dragon’s hoard. The mightier the dragon, the more powerful the item becomes when it is steeped in the dragon’s hoard. These items, called hoard items, have four states, which are summarized on the Hoard Item States table. A hoard item in its Slumbering state has certain base properties, and it gains additional properties when it enters the Stirring, Wakened, or Ascendant state.
If you only read the first sentence, then yes it opens the door to other magic items, but that's because you've taken it out of context. These are new rules for new items.
Mechanically it is a mess if you start applying hoard item status to existing magic items. I mean is a Slumbering Dragon's Wrath Vorpal Sword uncommon or legendary? And if you did get it to Ascendant status, what rarity is it then? Artifact? Something new? There just aren't rules for this.
Don't get me wrong, I like the system, and can see potential for homebrewing hoard items from existing magic items, but I think it needs to be heavily modified to do so. Maybe even tailored for each one, like deconstructing a Vorpal Sword so it starts as an uncommon sword that ignores resistance to slashing damage, gaining +1, then +2, and finally +3 and the decapitation rule when it reaches legendary status.
Well put. That definitely makes me thing RAI is for independent items with what the RAW implies like you said, although without explicit clarification I'm not willing to say completely RAW. I agree with your conclusion though and appreciate it.
I would love to homebrew some growth items around this system to make them more significant to the players in the long run.
you can link the hoard magic to the regular magic but yes RAW seems to limit it to the specific items listed. RoF would allow a broader reading, my recommendation - beginning DMs follow RAW, intermediate - limit things to +3 max/very rare, old pros - have fun you know what you can handle.
A point I would add here when trying to decide what should be possible (RAI) since, as usual, RAW is left just vague enough to be open to wild interpretations by those who want to power game. A dragon hoard shouldn’t be able to enhance a magic weapon that is already stronger (rarer) than its level. So you could soak a vorpal sword in wyrmling hoards for millennia and nothing would happen, but soak a masterwork (yes I know that term no longer has meaning but you understand it) in the same hoards and it would have an effect - what effect is up to the DM. To improve something like a vorpal sword it would need to soak in a grearwyrm’s hoard- probably for more than a human lifetime.
as usual, RAW is left just vague enough to be open to wild interpretations by those who want to power game.
It really isn't in this case
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I thick this can be solved by answering an example.
Dragon’s Wrath Weapon has Weapon (any) property, does this "(any)" include magic weapons or exclude magic weapons?
Weapon (any) property is used to describe the type of weapon as listed in the PHB, this is convention in magic item descriptions prior to Fizban's. It's never used to template add on another level of powers to a priorly defined magic weapon. Again, folks who want to do it can do what you want, but your logic is ignoring the game's conventions going back to DMG.
as usual, RAW is left just vague enough to be open to wild interpretations by those who want to power game.
It really isn't in this case
Lol, if it wasn’t we wouldn’t be holding this conversation 😁
Something else to consider when your looking at hoard items and powers: WYRMLING: 0 to 4 years soak max. Youngster: 5 to 100 years soak max Adult: 100 to 700 years soak max Ancient: 800+ years soak max greatwyrm: 800+ years in a multi world hoard. I can potentially see elven and Dwarven smiths/mages working with a dragon they sort of trust putting items into a hoard and leaving it for centuries with the expectation of coming back later to recover the item. Of course how many of those that have actually survived to recover the items is a different story. Then again that might be the dragon’s deal - only you (or a specified heir) can recover the item, if you (or they) die without recovering then the item becomes mine and is a permanent part of my hoard. I can’t see humans, gnomes, halfling or Dragonborn doing this due to short lifespans vs long soak times.
as usual, RAW is left just vague enough to be open to wild interpretations by those who want to power game.
It really isn't in this case
Lol, if it wasn’t we wouldn’t be holding this conversation 😁
Nah, this is an example of someone trying to power game with absolutely no help from anyone at all
There's simply no coherent reading of the RAW that supports trying to stack the effects. It's not "vague" in the least
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Very true, but if it actually said “ you can’t add magic weapons and the hoard bonuses don’t stack with magic weapons “ then even power gamers wouldn’t be trying ( well most of them anyway)
I don't think it is stupid at all. It is actually somewhat genius. If your goal was to kill dragons, that is. Dragons are covetous greedy creatures and they can't help but to collect magic items, even if those magic items were designed to soak up their ambient magical energies. Even if those items would inspire dragon slayers generations to come... the dragons couldn't ignore a magic item just laying there. Beckoning it. Just gleaming in the sunlight, flourished with details reminiscent of the dragon's own glory.
No dragon could resist adding one of these things to their hoard.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I don't think it is stupid at all. It is actually somewhat genius. If your goal was to kill dragons, that is. Dragons are covetous greedy creatures and they can't help but to collect magic items, even if those magic items were designed to soak up their ambient magical energies. Even if those items would inspire dragon slayers generations to come... the dragons couldn't ignore a magic item just laying there. Beckoning it. Just gleaming in the sunlight, flourished with details reminiscent of the dragon's own glory.
No dragon could resist adding one of these things to their hoard.
Because dragons are complete idiots, got it... but wait.... they have both high int and high wis? Eh, they'll act like idiots anyway.... because reasons?
A selfish person thinks a generous person is an idiot when he shares what he has. Is he? No. How smart someone is has nothing to do with acting or not acting according to their fundamental nature. Dragons collect hoards. It is what they do. Their intelligence just helps them accrue more, faster, and keep it longer.
Your vision of dragons can differ of course. Maybe in your tales of fantasy they don't have a single-minded pursuit of a hoard. Have fun.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Very true, but if it actually said “ you can’t add magic weapons and the hoard bonuses don’t stack with magic weapons “ then even power gamers wouldn’t be trying ( well most of them anyway)
It does say that the weapon's pluses increase 'to' rather than 'by.' That covers the +'s not stacking, at least.
And it describes them thus:
This weapon is decorated with dragon heads, claws, wings, scales, or Draconic letters. When it steeps in a dragon’s hoard, it absorbs the energy of the dragon’s breath weapon and deals damage of that type with its special properties.
So the weapon starts out prepared to receive the power by way of the design and/or inscription. Then it gets stuck in the hoard to bake until done.
It is a stupid idea all round. Living dragons can mass produce powerful weapons and any party that kills a dragon has to have such a custom item ready to go to get any benefit. But the dragon could well have a pre-enchanted arsenal just sitting there in its hoard.
What experienced DM would use this?
Actually I find it a really helpful plot hook as a DM. You need to get your players interested in going out and getting involved with (slaying) dragons? Give one or more of them a slumbering hoard item as an heirloom or a piece of early game treasure, and watch them go out and seek ways to power it up.
As far as mass producing goes, that's really up to you as a DM deciding how easy these hoard items are to produce (just like any magic item really). I'd advise against assuming they're particularly easy and that ancient dragons can just be sitting on hundreds of them. Treat it like any magic item and make them much more unique.
Also to be fair, dragons really have no need for these items when they're literally dragons. Unless they're being hoarded for the sake of hoarding, which ofcourse they might because dragons, I'd find it much more likely to find them in the hands of the dragons minions and agents, which could serve both as some nice loot, and a perfect opportunity for the players to learn about that minions master and his power level + what flavour of dragon they are.
Overall it's a very cool idea for a dragon based campaign.
What this is about is the ramifications of dragons being able to make new items just by sticking non-magical ones in their hoards. That is what this rule is about. Stick this fancy but otherwise normal sword in your pile of loot and one year later, it becomes magical and powerful. THAT is what this rule says.
It's more like, stick one of these specific magical items into your magic-infused hoard and one year later it becomes more powerful.
Hoard items are described as magical to start with, so I imagine they were specially crafted and enchanted to benefit from a dragon's magic, perhaps with a dragon's help in some cases. I've not seen anything in FToD that claims you can turn any mundane item into a magical one by steeping them in a hoard.
Dragons might also hoard magic items to help boost the magic ambience of their lair or as momentos of battles they have fought etc.
Again, we are not talking about whether dragons should hoard anything or not. They have a LOT of reasons for wanting to hoard items, both vanity, collections but also every weapon they have locked away is one less that can be used against them.
What this is about is the ramifications of dragons being able to make new items just by sticking non-magical ones in their hoards. That is what this rule is about. Stick this fancy but otherwise normal sword in your pile of loot and one year later, it becomes magical and powerful. THAT is what this rule says.
What this is about is the ramifications of dragons being able to make new items just by sticking non-magical ones in their hoards. That is what this rule is about. Stick this fancy but otherwise normal sword in your pile of loot and one year later, it becomes magical and powerful. THAT is what this rule says.
It's more like, stick one of these specific magical items into your magic-infused hoard and one year later it becomes more powerful.
Hoard items are described as magical to start with, so I imagine they were specially crafted and enchanted to benefit from a dragon's magic, perhaps with a dragon's help in some cases. I've not seen anything in FToD that claims you can turn any mundane item into a magical one by steeping them in a hoard.
Well they do not become even Uncommon magic items until the first awakening stage, so even if they are magical, they start out as common magical items, so incredibly easy to make. The whole section is really not thought out well at all and is a power gamer's wet dream.
I think you have misunderstood these items. They start off as magical items. When crafted by their original creator, they're magical items. even if they've never been in a hoard even once.
Later, if brought to a hoard they can become more powerful.
These rules have nothing to do with random objects in a dragon's hoard suddenly or spontaneously turning into magic items. That isn't a thing.
Nor do they necessarily start off a common rarity magic items.
Have you read the book about these items or is this secondhand information you're repeating here?
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Dragons might also hoard magic items to help boost the magic ambience of their lair or as momentos of battles they have fought etc.
Again, we are not talking about whether dragons should hoard anything or not. They have a LOT of reasons for wanting to hoard items, both vanity, collections but also every weapon they have locked away is one less that can be used against them.
What this is about is the ramifications of dragons being able to make new items just by sticking non-magical ones in their hoards. That is what this rule is about. Stick this fancy but otherwise normal sword in your pile of loot and one year later, it becomes magical and powerful. THAT is what this rule says.
What this is about is the ramifications of dragons being able to make new items just by sticking non-magical ones in their hoards. That is what this rule is about. Stick this fancy but otherwise normal sword in your pile of loot and one year later, it becomes magical and powerful. THAT is what this rule says.
It's more like, stick one of these specific magical items into your magic-infused hoard and one year later it becomes more powerful.
Hoard items are described as magical to start with, so I imagine they were specially crafted and enchanted to benefit from a dragon's magic, perhaps with a dragon's help in some cases. I've not seen anything in FToD that claims you can turn any mundane item into a magical one by steeping them in a hoard.
Well they do not become even Uncommon magic items until the first awakening stage, so even if they are magical, they start out as common magical items, so incredibly easy to make. The whole section is really not thought out well at all and is a power gamer's wet dream.
I think you have misunderstood these items. They start off as magical items. When crafted by their original creator, they're magical items. even if they've never been in a hoard even once.
Later, if brought to a hoard they can become more powerful.
These rules have nothing to do with random objects in a dragon's hoard suddenly or spontaneously turning into magic items. That isn't a thing.
Nor do they necessarily start off a common rarity magic items.
Have you read the book about these items or is this secondhand information you're repeating here?
Ok, you go on about RAW. Have YOU read these rules?
Yes.
When they get to the first stage (Slumbering) they become uncommon items. When they get to the second (Strirring), they become rare items, third (wakened), very rare items. Ascendant (fourth), legendary.
So you understand they're never common. Cool. Don't say they are then.
But given that progression, what rarity do they start as?
You JUST
answered this question.
Uncommon.
The concept is there but there seems next to no thought as to the ramifications.
What?
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
All hoard items start at as uncommon magic items, as there's no precursor stage to slumbering
These items, called hoard items, have four states, which are summarized on the Hoard Item States table. A hoard item in its Slumbering state has certain base properties, and it gains additional properties when it enters the Stirring, Wakened, or Ascendant state.
An item cannot be a hoard item and not be slumbering, stirring, wakened, or ascendant. Therefore all hoard items start as uncommon in their slumbering state. If they are not slumbering, they are not a hoard item.
I think what is creating the problem is that first line in RAW: “ When they get to the first stage (slumbering) they become uncommon.” The when and become at least suggest that they started off (before being placed in the hoard) as something even lower ie a common magic item or even possibly a specially crafted mundane item. As seems to often be the case with with WOtC the wording is just loose enough to give power gamers room to try the outer limits.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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Ah, ok. I was just really confused then. That seems to happens more often in my old age.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I mean, the epic handshake does have disorienting side-effects when witnessed.
EDIT: Ok, having now read the pages actually discussed, it seems to me the OP's question is predicated on inspired cherry picking that misses the rest of the tree. The area in question is a section called Hoard Magic Items where the scaling, so to speak, is discussed, and then the Horde Magic Items are delineated. What the OP wants to do is treat these items as sort of templates to attach to other items, but that's over reach and in now way is authorized in the section titled Hoard Magic Items. I mean you could do that, but I think as W1ldb!ll proferred and others seem to agree, that's literally going beyond the bounds of the way the game should work. A DM is free to let their players play on godmode if that's your playstyle, but that does not seem to be encouraged at all by the way these particular magic items, called Hoard Magic Items, have been introduced.
What's more perplexing, or frustrating, or resignedly typical WotC D&D design studio messing up the end game, is that the Hoard Magic Items have no place on the hoard generating tables at the end of the book. It all links back to the DMG. I mean I can understand ducking Tasha's or Xanathar's but it just seems poor editorial work to not incorporate the magic items that are specifically found in Dragon Hoards into your Dragon Hoard generation table. Some folks have pointed out the redundancy of these tables, that's definitely correct to me without demonstrating how these could populate a hoard table.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Well put. That definitely makes me thing RAI is for independent items with what the RAW implies like you said, although without explicit clarification I'm not willing to say completely RAW. I agree with your conclusion though and appreciate it.
I would love to homebrew some growth items around this system to make them more significant to the players in the long run.
I thick this can be solved by answering an example.
Dragon’s Wrath Weapon has Weapon (any) property, does this "(any)" include magic weapons or exclude magic weapons?
A point I would add here when trying to decide what should be possible (RAI) since, as usual, RAW is left just vague enough to be open to wild interpretations by those who want to power game. A dragon hoard shouldn’t be able to enhance a magic weapon that is already stronger (rarer) than its level. So you could soak a vorpal sword in wyrmling hoards for millennia and nothing would happen, but soak a masterwork (yes I know that term no longer has meaning but you understand it) in the same hoards and it would have an effect - what effect is up to the DM. To improve something like a vorpal sword it would need to soak in a grearwyrm’s hoard- probably for more than a human lifetime.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It really isn't in this case
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Weapon (any) property is used to describe the type of weapon as listed in the PHB, this is convention in magic item descriptions prior to Fizban's. It's never used to template add on another level of powers to a priorly defined magic weapon. Again, folks who want to do it can do what you want, but your logic is ignoring the game's conventions going back to DMG.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Lol, if it wasn’t we wouldn’t be holding this conversation 😁
Something else to consider when your looking at hoard items and powers:
WYRMLING: 0 to 4 years soak max.
Youngster: 5 to 100 years soak max
Adult: 100 to 700 years soak max
Ancient: 800+ years soak max
greatwyrm: 800+ years in a multi world hoard.
I can potentially see elven and Dwarven smiths/mages working with a dragon they sort of trust putting items into a hoard and leaving it for centuries with the expectation of coming back later to recover the item. Of course how many of those that have actually survived to recover the items is a different story. Then again that might be the dragon’s deal - only you (or a specified heir) can recover the item, if you (or they) die without recovering then the item becomes mine and is a permanent part of my hoard. I can’t see humans, gnomes, halfling or Dragonborn doing this due to short lifespans vs long soak times.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Nah, this is an example of someone trying to power game with absolutely no help from anyone at all
There's simply no coherent reading of the RAW that supports trying to stack the effects. It's not "vague" in the least
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Very true, but if it actually said “ you can’t add magic weapons and the hoard bonuses don’t stack with magic weapons “ then even power gamers wouldn’t be trying ( well most of them anyway)
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Very few
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I don't think it is stupid at all. It is actually somewhat genius. If your goal was to kill dragons, that is. Dragons are covetous greedy creatures and they can't help but to collect magic items, even if those magic items were designed to soak up their ambient magical energies. Even if those items would inspire dragon slayers generations to come... the dragons couldn't ignore a magic item just laying there. Beckoning it. Just gleaming in the sunlight, flourished with details reminiscent of the dragon's own glory.
No dragon could resist adding one of these things to their hoard.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A selfish person thinks a generous person is an idiot when he shares what he has. Is he? No. How smart someone is has nothing to do with acting or not acting according to their fundamental nature. Dragons collect hoards. It is what they do. Their intelligence just helps them accrue more, faster, and keep it longer.
Your vision of dragons can differ of course. Maybe in your tales of fantasy they don't have a single-minded pursuit of a hoard. Have fun.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Actually I find it a really helpful plot hook as a DM. You need to get your players interested in going out and getting involved with (slaying) dragons? Give one or more of them a slumbering hoard item as an heirloom or a piece of early game treasure, and watch them go out and seek ways to power it up.
As far as mass producing goes, that's really up to you as a DM deciding how easy these hoard items are to produce (just like any magic item really). I'd advise against assuming they're particularly easy and that ancient dragons can just be sitting on hundreds of them. Treat it like any magic item and make them much more unique.
Also to be fair, dragons really have no need for these items when they're literally dragons. Unless they're being hoarded for the sake of hoarding, which ofcourse they might because dragons, I'd find it much more likely to find them in the hands of the dragons minions and agents, which could serve both as some nice loot, and a perfect opportunity for the players to learn about that minions master and his power level + what flavour of dragon they are.
Overall it's a very cool idea for a dragon based campaign.
Dragons might also hoard magic items to help boost the magic ambience of their lair or as momentos of battles they have fought etc.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It's more like, stick one of these specific magical items into your magic-infused hoard and one year later it becomes more powerful.
Hoard items are described as magical to start with, so I imagine they were specially crafted and enchanted to benefit from a dragon's magic, perhaps with a dragon's help in some cases. I've not seen anything in FToD that claims you can turn any mundane item into a magical one by steeping them in a hoard.
I think you have misunderstood these items. They start off as magical items. When crafted by their original creator, they're magical items. even if they've never been in a hoard even once.
Later, if brought to a hoard they can become more powerful.
These rules have nothing to do with random objects in a dragon's hoard suddenly or spontaneously turning into magic items. That isn't a thing.
Nor do they necessarily start off a common rarity magic items.
Have you read the book about these items or is this secondhand information you're repeating here?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Yes.
So you understand they're never common. Cool. Don't say they are then.
You JUST
answered this question.
Uncommon.
What?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
All hoard items start at as uncommon magic items, as there's no precursor stage to slumbering
An item cannot be a hoard item and not be slumbering, stirring, wakened, or ascendant. Therefore all hoard items start as uncommon in their slumbering state. If they are not slumbering, they are not a hoard item.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
I think what is creating the problem is that first line in RAW: “ When they get to the first stage (slumbering) they become uncommon.” The when and become at least suggest that they started off (before being placed in the hoard) as something even lower ie a common magic item or even possibly a specially crafted mundane item. As seems to often be the case with with WOtC the wording is just loose enough to give power gamers room to try the outer limits.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.