In a world full of magic and monsters, dragons, and even dinosaurs, as well as adventurers with beasts (and drakes) as companions, if the cultists didn’t see the spell being cast, why would they assume it was a spell at all and not a pet of some sort?
And although many settings have magic that is fairly common not all commoners, trades people, etc can use it so may not understand it enough to figure out the T-Rex was a polymorphed character. Now cultists would probably have some knowledge as they are probably not the same CR as a commoner but in the heat of battle I don’t think they can tell if someone is concentrating. An educated guess would be it’s probably not the raging Barbarian, but so many classes can cast spells (and in game terms I don’t think anyone in the game world thinks of each other as, ”oh, that must be a 7th level Ranger or Druid or wizard” that’s meta knowledge players have and not how the denizens of the game works see things)
The average commoner (who is, by definition, average) is often a lot cleverer than the average character from a STR, DEX or CHR based class. And they live in a 5e world where magic and shit is going down. There's no reason to think they might not have good understandings of the interesting things that go on in their world.
If I saw a group of medium-sized humanoids accompanied by a t-rex and that t-rex was ferociously attacking just one set of non-t-rexs despite, itself, coming under significant, painful attack, I'd think that this was suspicious. How come our guards didn't warn us of this tall lizard coming in? What the heck, in this world of magic, is going on?
You’re giving a lot of credit to commoners.
many commoners would probably go their whole life without ever seeing an orc. Let alone magic. Unless your a high magic setting like Ebberon.
Edit: And many probably have never seen a gold piece or no more than a small handful unless they are in a city. Out in the countryside, not so much.
Yeah. a lot is dependent on setting. The forgotten realms is rich in magic. Adventurers can go out and face encounters to keep them challenged.
I also give a lot of credit to your characters. A lot of them want to become heroes going into legend. Maybe some succeed.
In the age of Greek myth, details of characters were widely known. How would it have been if those characters were real? In a world of magic, people would talk about magic. People would take an interest. They would try to understand.
In a world full of magic and monsters, dragons, and even dinosaurs, as well as adventurers with beasts (and drakes) as companions, if the cultists didn’t see the spell being cast, why would they assume it was a spell at all and not a pet of some sort?
And although many settings have magic that is fairly common not all commoners, trades people, etc can use it so may not understand it enough to figure out the T-Rex was a polymorphed character. Now cultists would probably have some knowledge as they are probably not the same CR as a commoner but in the heat of battle I don’t think they can tell if someone is concentrating. An educated guess would be it’s probably not the raging Barbarian, but so many classes can cast spells (and in game terms I don’t think anyone in the game world thinks of each other as, ”oh, that must be a 7th level Ranger or Druid or wizard” that’s meta knowledge players have and not how the denizens of the game works see things)
The average commoner (who is, by definition, average) is often a lot cleverer than the average character from a STR, DEX or CHR based class. And they live in a 5e world where magic and shit is going down. There's no reason to think they might not have good understandings of the interesting things that go on in their world.
If I saw a group of medium-sized humanoids accompanied by a t-rex and that t-rex was ferociously attacking just one set of non-t-rexs despite, itself, coming under significant, painful attack, I'd think that this was suspicious. How come our guards didn't warn us of this tall lizard coming in? What the heck, in this world of magic, is going on?
Assuming a very knowledgeable commoner ...
1) A beast pet of a ranger or druid. Possibly befriended or raised from when they were an egg. Speak with animals, Animal Friendship, some sort of charm or just a pet could all explain this (it is a D&D world after all - even a commoner might have seen stranger things - especially if they had lived in Chult). Rangers can have dragon pets - why not a giant lizard? A druid in a game I was in made friends with a rather ornery mammoth for example.
2) Could it be an illusion? Is the T-rex even real? Can't an illusionist bring a part of their illusion to life if they are sufficient powerful?
3) Summoning. Did someone summon this creature to fight on their side? Most summoning spells have the creature being a friend of the caster and their party.
4) Polymorph. It is possible that the T-rex is something else polymorphed - however, why would a powerful character polymorph themselves into a dumb beast? They are probably even more powerful in their natural form.
5) Dominate monster?
There are likely several more explanations easily possible. Why would a commoner decide that the creature had to be polymorphed?
Also, lets look at a party - what do folks see? There are several folks wearing scale mail armor and carrying a shield and weapon. Two are elves with long swords and the third is a human also with a long sword. They all are wearing a holy symbol. Which is the fighter (or paladin), which is a cleric, which is a 1 cleric/X wizard multiclass? You can't tell what they are just by looking and you can't tell if they are concentrating on a spell. You can't even figure out what spell they are casting if they decide to move their hands and mutter some odd syllables without using a reaction to try to identify it (Xanathars). If they are just pretending to cast a spell can you tell?
Given all of that, no I don't think a commoner can stand beside a battle and say - "Oh! That T-rex is a polymorphed creature and the spell is being maintained by the third guy in the red medium armor over there. The other one is a cleric concentrating on bless and the last one is a paladin concentrating on shield of faith." At least in the games I run, since the rules don't say that concentrating on a spell has any indications that it is happening, I just go with it not being discernible.
Yeah. a lot is dependent on setting. The forgotten realms is rich in magic. Adventurers can go out and face encounters to keep them challenged.
I also give a lot of credit to your characters. A lot of them want to become heroes going into legend. Maybe some succeed.
In the age of Greek myth, details of characters were widely known. How would it have been if those characters were real? In a world of magic, people would talk about magic. People would take an interest. They would try to understand.
I'm just curious what your source is for stating that the details of characters from Greek mythology were widely known? Literacy rates are difficult to know but the numbers I can find on the internet seem to range from 5% to close to 30% for the peak of Greek civilization (likely only in urban settings) though the Greeks did have a strong oral tradition and the epic poems of Homer were translated into Latin by the Romans.
However, large parts of the civilizations were agrarian. Raising crops and animals that supported the farmers and the growing urban areas. Being literate wasn't essential and it isn't clear what stories would get told around the cooking fire or dinner table. The epics of the Illiad and the Odyssey, Hercules, and other similar stories might or might not have circulated widely. It may have depended on the religious context for some of the stories. So I am just curious what makes you say that these stories and their details were widely known.
In a world full of magic and monsters, dragons, and even dinosaurs, as well as adventurers with beasts (and drakes) as companions, if the cultists didn’t see the spell being cast, why would they assume it was a spell at all and not a pet of some sort?
And although many settings have magic that is fairly common not all commoners, trades people, etc can use it so may not understand it enough to figure out the T-Rex was a polymorphed character. Now cultists would probably have some knowledge as they are probably not the same CR as a commoner but in the heat of battle I don’t think they can tell if someone is concentrating. An educated guess would be it’s probably not the raging Barbarian, but so many classes can cast spells (and in game terms I don’t think anyone in the game world thinks of each other as, ”oh, that must be a 7th level Ranger or Druid or wizard” that’s meta knowledge players have and not how the denizens of the game works see things)
The average commoner (who is, by definition, average) is often a lot cleverer than the average character from a STR, DEX or CHR based class. And they live in a 5e world where magic and shit is going down. There's no reason to think they might not have good understandings of the interesting things that go on in their world.
If I saw a group of medium-sized humanoids accompanied by a t-rex and that t-rex was ferociously attacking just one set of non-t-rexs despite, itself, coming under significant, painful attack, I'd think that this was suspicious. How come our guards didn't warn us of this tall lizard coming in? What the heck, in this world of magic, is going on?
Assuming a very knowledgeable commoner ...
1) A beast pet of a ranger or druid. Possibly befriended or raised from when they were an egg. Speak with animals, Animal Friendship, some sort of charm or just a pet could all explain this (it is a D&D world after all - even a commoner might have seen stranger things - especially if they had lived in Chult). Rangers can have dragon pets - why not a giant lizard? A druid in a game I was in made friends with a rather ornery mammoth for example.
2) Could it be an illusion? Is the T-rex even real? Can't an illusionist bring a part of their illusion to life if they are sufficient powerful?
3) Summoning. Did someone summon this creature to fight on their side? Most summoning spells have the creature being a friend of the caster and their party.
4) Polymorph. It is possible that the T-rex is something else polymorphed - however, why would a powerful character polymorph themselves into a dumb beast? They are probably even more powerful in their natural form.
5) Dominate monster?
There are likely several more explanations easily possible. Why would a commoner decide that the creature had to be polymorphed?
Also, lets look at a party - what do folks see? There are several folks wearing scale mail armor and carrying a shield and weapon. Two are elves with long swords and the third is a human also with a long sword. They all are wearing a holy symbol. Which is the fighter (or paladin), which is a cleric, which is a 1 cleric/X wizard multiclass? You can't tell what they are just by looking and you can't tell if they are concentrating on a spell. You can't even figure out what spell they are casting if they decide to move their hands and mutter some odd syllables without using a reaction to try to identify it (Xanathars). If they are just pretending to cast a spell can you tell?
Given all of that, no I don't think a commoner can stand beside a battle and say - "Oh! That T-rex is a polymorphed creature and the spell is being maintained by the third guy in the red medium armor over there. The other one is a cleric concentrating on bless and the last one is a paladin concentrating on shield of faith." At least in the games I run, since the rules don't say that concentrating on a spell has any indications that it is happening, I just go with it not being discernible.
I'm not sure if lone hunter monsters of the mould of t-rexs or potential legendary parallels like the tarasque would be assumed to naturally fit with people's conceptions of having a loyal pet disposition.
Concentration spells includeillusions like silent image and major image, conjuration spells like summon animals or fey, and dominate monster and enchantment spells like Dominate beast, monster and person.
People would have an interest in the ways spells might work and, if they had understood the basics of concentration (and they are basic), they could naturally look for ways to break that likely concentration.
Literacy is common in 5e world and oral traditions, such as of people talking about interesting things while gathered at the tavern, hearth or campfire, would also have been common. People aren't watching tv or playing PlayStation. They'd more often be talking.
I am NOT saying that concentration should be visible. I am saying that the Constitution saving throw made to maintain concentration should be visible. This allows the caster to main the secrecy of who the spellcaster is except in the event that they take damage, in which case the jig is up.
There are multiple game features that require the user to witness the target making a saving throw:
This would indicate that *saving throws are observable*. Even supposing the cultists don't know what value I'm getting or perhaps even that it's a Constitution saving throw, they should at least be able to see that a saving throw is occurring. And if it happens everytime they damage me with inflict wounds or toll the dead, there's really only one logical conclusion: I'm concentrating on *something*.
I am NOT saying that concentration should be visible. I am saying that the Constitution saving throw made to maintain concentration should be visible. This allows the caster to main the secrecy of who the spellcaster is except in the event that they take damage, in which case the jig is up.
There are multiple game features that require the user to witness the target making a saving throw:
This would indicate that *saving throws are observable*. Even supposing the cultists don't know what value I'm getting or perhaps even that it's a Constitution saving throw, they should at least be able to see that a saving throw is occurring. And if it happens everytime they damage me with inflict wounds or toll the dead, there's really only one logical conclusion: I'm concentrating on *something*.
That ruling could be interpreted to generally work. The RAW certainly works in that specific way with those items/features.
Crawford just went as far as to say that, "while [concentration is] not meant to be conspicuous, it can be noticed.
Added to that, if creatures knew about the concentration spell mechanic, they might have ideas about what they might be looking for at a time when a saving throw might be being made.
I always found weird that Concentration was a CON save rather than an Intelligence or Wisdom, since to me it seems more a mental achievement than physical one.
I am NOT saying that concentration should be visible. I am saying that the Constitution saving throw made to maintain concentration should be visible. This allows the caster to main the secrecy of who the spellcaster is except in the event that they take damage, in which case the jig is up.
There are multiple game features that require the user to witness the target making a saving throw:
This would indicate that *saving throws are observable*. Even supposing the cultists don't know what value I'm getting or perhaps even that it's a Constitution saving throw, they should at least be able to see that a saving throw is occurring. And if it happens everytime they damage me with inflict wounds or toll the dead, there's really only one logical conclusion: I'm concentrating on *something*.
Portent doesn’t let a wizard observe and change a saving throw. It allows the wizard to put right replace a 1d20 roll before the roll happens. This is not the same as knowing a creature is making a save based on observation.this feature might be the most “metagame” oriented feature in the game.
Bend luck is written in a way that gives the wild magic sorcerer the ability to cause 1d20 rerolls, and is triggered by using a reaction. It’s worded similarly counterspell, except that it’s a bit more general. This might actually work for or against having the knowledge of the roll depending on DM fiat.
while most creatures are observable while they make saving throws, this doesn’t necessarily mean the saving throws is discernible. I’d say that most mental saves aren’t conspicuous, but the feature that causes the save or the effects afterward might be observable.
a creature using strength for a save might be seen physically resisting an effect. A creature using text Darity for sale might be seen as jumping or moving around an affect.
if the effect isnt observable then perhaps the creature doesn’t even know that it made a savings throw. I mean I walked into creatures know that they’re getting scrying cast on them?
I always found weird that Concentration was a CON save rather than an Intelligence or Wisdom, since to me it seems more a mental achievement than physical one.
Its like the difference between hitting your pinky toe on an object and screaming in pain Vs holding it cause you don't want to wake up you sibling in the other room. You made your Con save to not scream in pain and shrug it off.
I am NOT saying that concentration should be visible. I am saying that the Constitution saving throw made to maintain concentration should be visible. This allows the caster to main the secrecy of who the spellcaster is except in the event that they take damage, in which case the jig is up.
There are multiple game features that require the user to witness the target making a saving throw:
This would indicate that *saving throws are observable*. Even supposing the cultists don't know what value I'm getting or perhaps even that it's a Constitution saving throw, they should at least be able to see that a saving throw is occurring. And if it happens everytime they damage me with inflict wounds or toll the dead, there's really only one logical conclusion: I'm concentrating on *something*.
Portent doesn’t let a wizard observe and change a saving throw. It allows the wizard to put right replace a 1d20 roll before the roll happens. This is not the same as knowing a creature is making a save based on observation.
Bend luck is written in a way that gives the wild magic sorcerer the ability to cause 1d20 rerolls, and is triggered by using a reaction. It’s worded similarly counterspell, except that it’s a bit more general. This might actually work for or against having the knowledge of the roll depending on DM fiat.
while most creatures are observable while they make saving throws, this doesn’t necessarily mean the saving throws is discernible. I’d say that most mental saves aren’t conspicuous, but the feature that causes the save or the effects afterward might be observable.
a creature using strength for a save might be seen physically resisting an effect. A creature using text Darity for sale might be seen as jumping or moving around an affect.
if the effect isnt observable then perhaps the creature doesn’t even know that it made a savings throw. I mean I walked into creatures know that they’re getting scrying cast on them?
How does the Sorcerer know what to react to? "When another creature you can seemakes an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can use your reaction and spend 2 sorcery points to roll 1d4 and apply the number rolled as a bonus or penalty (your choice) to the creature’s roll. You can do so after the creature rolls but before any effects of the roll occur." A logical interpretation is that they do this in response to what they can see.
I always found weird that Concentration was a CON save rather than an Intelligence or Wisdom, since to me it seems more a mental achievement than physical one.
I'd have given it to Charisma, personally. Charisma when discussing spellcasting, is your manifestation of will, and for me that seems to fit best into Charisma, your determination to maintain your goal and manifest your will upon the world... But they went with Constitution for probably game balance reasons, since Con is universally good stat, but is also only secondary, for all spellcasters.
It would create an interesting dynamic if concentration checks were Charisma-save based though. Bards, Paladins, Warlocks and Sorcerers would all be decent at it by default (having both stat + prof), clerics only marginally less so(prof only). So only really Druid, and Wizards would have a harder time concentrating(neither stat nor prof). I sorta like that spread TBH.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Portent doesn’t let a wizard observe and change a saving throw. It allows the wizard to put right replace a 1d20 roll before the roll happens. This is not the same as knowing a creature is making a save based on observation.this feature might be the most “metagame” oriented feature in the game.
That honor must absolutely go to the 7th level Battlemaster ability:
Know Your Enemy
Starting at 7th level, if you spend at least 1 minute observing or interacting with another creature outside combat, you can learn certain information about its capabilities compared to your own. The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice:
Strength score
Dexterity score
Constitution score
Armor Class
Current hit points
Total class levels (if any)
Fighter class levels (if any)
This implies that you character knows what all of these are now. He actively knows that there are strength, dex, and con scores. He knows what an armor class is and HP. HP are super abstract yet he knows they exist and who has how many, even in relative terms this knowledge is insane for an in-universe creature to posses. He also knows about levels, and the distinction between types of levels, even if only fighter vs all others. This is one of the weirdest most metagame abilities in existence and gives the character information that would probably cause a sane person to lose their mind if they knew. They'd quickly be able to piece together that all of their known existence is a collective fever dream of a bunch of higher-dimensional beings that exist as puppeteers moving around and controlling his entire gamified reality. He'd scream in terror if he could, but his players didn't say he does, so he cannot.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Portent doesn’t let a wizard observe and change a saving throw. It allows the wizard to put right replace a 1d20 roll before the roll happens. This is not the same as knowing a creature is making a save based on observation.this feature might be the most “metagame” oriented feature in the game.
That honor must absolutely go to the 7th level Battlemaster ability:
Know Your Enemy
Starting at 7th level, if you spend at least 1 minute observing or interacting with another creature outside combat, you can learn certain information about its capabilities compared to your own. The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice:
Strength score
Dexterity score
Constitution score
Armor Class
Current hit points
Total class levels (if any)
Fighter class levels (if any)
This implies that you character knows what all of these are now. He actively knows that there are strength, dex, and con scores. He knows what an armor class is and HP. HP are super abstract yet he knows they exist and who has how many, even in relative terms this knowledge is insane for an in-universe creature to posses. He also knows about levels, and the distinction between types of levels, even if only fighter vs all others. This is one of the weirdest most metagame abilities in existence and gives the character information that would probably cause a sane person to lose their mind if they knew. They'd quickly be able to piece together that all of their known existence is a collective fever dream of a bunch of higher-dimensional beings that exist as puppeteers moving around and controlling his entire gamified reality. He'd scream in terror if he could, but his players didn't say he does, so he cannot.
Wrong..... this skill lets you know if two of these are equal, superior, or inferior. It does not tell you the number or how much. Marital artists and fighters for years have been able to read there opposition and get an idea of if they are better or weaker then them. This isnt meta this is called being good at what you do. Things like HP if someone is injured they will act and seem different then someone in full health.
The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice
Portent doesn’t let a wizard observe and change a saving throw. It allows the wizard to put right replace a 1d20 roll before the roll happens. This is not the same as knowing a creature is making a save based on observation.this feature might be the most “metagame” oriented feature in the game.
That honor must absolutely go to the 7th level Battlemaster ability:
Know Your Enemy
Starting at 7th level, if you spend at least 1 minute observing or interacting with another creature outside combat, you can learn certain information about its capabilities compared to your own. The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice:
Strength score
Dexterity score
Constitution score
Armor Class
Current hit points
Total class levels (if any)
Fighter class levels (if any)
This implies that you character knows what all of these are now. He actively knows that there are strength, dex, and con scores. He knows what an armor class is and HP. HP are super abstract yet he knows they exist and who has how many, even in relative terms this knowledge is insane for an in-universe creature to posses. He also knows about levels, and the distinction between types of levels, even if only fighter vs all others. This is one of the weirdest most metagame abilities in existence and gives the character information that would probably cause a sane person to lose their mind if they knew. They'd quickly be able to piece together that all of their known existence is a collective fever dream of a bunch of higher-dimensional beings that exist as puppeteers moving around and controlling his entire gamified reality. He'd scream in terror if he could, but his players didn't say he does, so he cannot.
Wrong..... this skill lets you know if two of these are equal, superior, or inferior. It does not tell you the number or how much.
? Did I say it lets you know the exact number? ... or did I say 'relative' value?
I said it lets you know the existence of the score. That's super metagame. The character shouldn't know of the existence of scores. This ability says they know of them.
Marital artists and fighters for years have been able to read there opposition and get an idea of if they are better or weaker then them. This isnt meta this is called being good at what you do. Things like HP if someone is injured they will act and seem different then someone in full health.
The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice
The Battlemaster knows the existence of these stats and their relative value. That's super 4th wall breaking.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Portent doesn’t let a wizard observe and change a saving throw. It allows the wizard to put right replace a 1d20 roll before the roll happens. This is not the same as knowing a creature is making a save based on observation.this feature might be the most “metagame” oriented feature in the game.
That honor must absolutely go to the 7th level Battlemaster ability:
Know Your Enemy
Starting at 7th level, if you spend at least 1 minute observing or interacting with another creature outside combat, you can learn certain information about its capabilities compared to your own. The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice:
Strength score
Dexterity score
Constitution score
Armor Class
Current hit points
Total class levels (if any)
Fighter class levels (if any)
This implies that you character knows what all of these are now. He actively knows that there are strength, dex, and con scores. He knows what an armor class is and HP. HP are super abstract yet he knows they exist and who has how many, even in relative terms this knowledge is insane for an in-universe creature to posses. He also knows about levels, and the distinction between types of levels, even if only fighter vs all others. This is one of the weirdest most metagame abilities in existence and gives the character information that would probably cause a sane person to lose their mind if they knew. They'd quickly be able to piece together that all of their known existence is a collective fever dream of a bunch of higher-dimensional beings that exist as puppeteers moving around and controlling his entire gamified reality. He'd scream in terror if he could, but his players didn't say he does, so he cannot.
Wrong..... this skill lets you know if two of these are equal, superior, or inferior. It does not tell you the number or how much.
? Did I say it lets you know the exact number? ... or did I say 'relative' value?
I said it lets you know the existence of the score. That's super metagame. The character shouldn't know of the existence of scores. This ability says they know of them.
Marital artists and fighters for years have been able to read there opposition and get an idea of if they are better or weaker then them. This isnt meta this is called being good at what you do. Things like HP if someone is injured they will act and seem different then someone in full health.
The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice
The Battlemaster knows the existence of these stats and their relative value. That's super 4th wall breaking.
Not metagame at all really.
The character can determine if the thing it is looking at is stronger, equal or weaker physically than them. The character isn't seeing those statistics specifically, it is the player who is told the result; it is up to them to decide how to express the relative power of each particular statistic.
I mean depending on the DM they can be as bad as saying that someone with a str score one point lower is inferior to you. Not really 4th wall breaking when people do this in real life. MMA fighters, martial artists, boxers size up there opinionate all the time. And I mean PC know their own stats why wouldn't they have some idea that maybe the dude walking around in full plate mail maybe stronger then them, this just gives them an idea how much stronger.
Man that guy over there is carring himself with ease in that full armor while I have issues wearing my chain mail all day. - superior str
Man did you see that women dodge the bar maid so the maid didnt spilled the drinks they were carrying. If that was me I would have been able to catch the tray and prevent the drinks from spilling. - Equal dex or superior AC
Man that guy can hold his liquor he drinks like a dwarf.. Me I would be two ales in and need a bed for the night - Inferior con
Man I haven't seen someone move like that since my master taught me back in training - Superior fighter lvl
None of these things are 4th wall breaking.
And also I apologize no you didn't say they gave the numbers
I mean depending on the DM they can be as bad as saying that someone with a str score one point lower is inferior to you. Not really 4th wall breaking when people do this in real life. MMA fighters, martial artists, boxers size up there opinionate all the time. And I mean PC know their own stats why wouldn't they have some idea that maybe the dude walking around in full plate mail maybe stronger then them, this just gives them an idea how much stronger.
I don't disagree with this, but this isn't what the ability says it does. It says you learn the relative value of the stats listed there. And you get to pick which one. This means your character explicitly understands stats exist, and that those listed there have some concrete metric.
Man that guy over there is carring himself with ease in that full armor while I have issues wearing my chain mail all day. - superior str
Man did you see that women dodge the bar maid so the maid didnt spilled the drinks they were carrying. If that was me I would have been able to catch the tray and prevent the drinks from spilling. - Equal dex or superior AC
Man that guy can hold his liquor he drinks like a dwarf.. Me I would be two ales in and need a bed for the night - Inferior con
Man I haven't seen someone move like that since my master taught me back in training - Superior fighter lvl
None of these things are 4th wall breaking.
You're right, none of that is 4th wall breaking but none of that is what the ability does. These are just casual observations anyone can make.
.
Your L7+ Battle master knows that Strength, dexterity, constitution, AC, HP, Levels, and fighter levels all exist. And he knows they have some objective metric that he personally has learned how to get those relative values for by simply observing a target.
Again, your fighter doesn't learn "that guy over there is carring himself with ease in that full armor while I have issues wearing my chain mail all day" he learns if he has a superior "strength score".
It is metagame because you literally are learning the stats of creatures. Relative value only, but even just knowing of the existence of the stats alone is metagame. The characters shouldn't know that levels exist, or HP, or AC etc. Yes, they should know that people have various degree of experience (ie levels) or some would be harder or easier to strike in combat (AC) etc etc. But that isn't what this ability says it does. Your character picks two of those stats, and your character learns their relative value compared to his own. That's absolutely 4th wall breaking.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Your L7+ Battle master knows that Strength, dexterity, constitution, AC, HP, Levels, and fighter levels all exist. And he knows they have some objective metric that he personally has learned how to get those relative values for by simply observing a target.
Again, your fighter doesn't learn "that guy over there is carring himself with ease in that full armor while I have issues wearing my chain mail all day" he learns if he has a superior "strength score".
It is metagame because you literally are learning the stats of creatures. Relative value only, but even just knowing of the existence of the stats alone is metagame. The characters shouldn't know that levels exist, or HP, or AC etc. Yes, they should know that people have various degree of experience (ie levels) or some would be harder or easier to strike in combat (AC) etc etc. But that isn't what this ability says it does. Your character picks two of those stats, and your character learns their relative value compared to his own. That's absolutely 4th wall breaking.
According to your logic, the Battle master also knows that a DM exists, since the wording is "The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice:"
Your L7+ Battle master knows that Strength, dexterity, constitution, AC, HP, Levels, and fighter levels all exist. And he knows they have some objective metric that he personally has learned how to get those relative values for by simply observing a target.
Again, your fighter doesn't learn "that guy over there is carring himself with ease in that full armor while I have issues wearing my chain mail all day" he learns if he has a superior "strength score".
It is metagame because you literally are learning the stats of creatures. Relative value only, but even just knowing of the existence of the stats alone is metagame. The characters shouldn't know that levels exist, or HP, or AC etc. Yes, they should know that people have various degree of experience (ie levels) or some would be harder or easier to strike in combat (AC) etc etc. But that isn't what this ability says it does. Your character picks two of those stats, and your character learns their relative value compared to his own. That's absolutely 4th wall breaking.
According to your logic, the Battle master also knows that a DM exists, since the wording is "The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice:"
Yep - clearly this unknown creature called "DM" tells the battlemaster fighter "Your strength score is lower than that of the creature you are studying". "Your hit points are higher than the creature". Then the voice of this mysterious creature vanishes until the next time you compare yourself to someone else. I can see the battlemaster goign on a quest to discover who this mysterious voice is that gives him this information comparing stats not realizing that it is the DM who is controlling the world the character lives in ...
Alternatively .. maybe .. the rules are written in order to mechanically describe how the ability works. The PLAYER knows the relative value of specific stats - the CHARACTER knows whether they are stronger, more agile, less hardy, more durable or harder to hit - comparing the combat abilities of one creature to another. On the other hand, if the characters know that they are rolling dice to decide whether they hit or not then it really doesn't matter.
However, perhaps the comments were just intended as humor since from a fundamental role playing game point of view the characters are NOT aware of any of the mechanics at all. The characters don't see a dice roll, they see whether their friend was able to resist an effect (if it was perceivable) or not.
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many commoners would probably go their whole life without ever seeing an orc. Let alone magic. Unless your a high magic setting like Ebberon.
Edit: And many probably have never seen a gold piece or no more than a small handful unless they are in a city. Out in the countryside, not so much.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Yeah. a lot is dependent on setting. The forgotten realms is rich in magic. Adventurers can go out and face encounters to keep them challenged.
I also give a lot of credit to your characters. A lot of them want to become heroes going into legend. Maybe some succeed.
In the age of Greek myth, details of characters were widely known. How would it have been if those characters were real? In a world of magic, people would talk about magic. People would take an interest. They would try to understand.
Assuming a very knowledgeable commoner ...
1) A beast pet of a ranger or druid. Possibly befriended or raised from when they were an egg. Speak with animals, Animal Friendship, some sort of charm or just a pet could all explain this (it is a D&D world after all - even a commoner might have seen stranger things - especially if they had lived in Chult). Rangers can have dragon pets - why not a giant lizard? A druid in a game I was in made friends with a rather ornery mammoth for example.
2) Could it be an illusion? Is the T-rex even real? Can't an illusionist bring a part of their illusion to life if they are sufficient powerful?
3) Summoning. Did someone summon this creature to fight on their side? Most summoning spells have the creature being a friend of the caster and their party.
4) Polymorph. It is possible that the T-rex is something else polymorphed - however, why would a powerful character polymorph themselves into a dumb beast? They are probably even more powerful in their natural form.
5) Dominate monster?
There are likely several more explanations easily possible. Why would a commoner decide that the creature had to be polymorphed?
Also, lets look at a party - what do folks see? There are several folks wearing scale mail armor and carrying a shield and weapon. Two are elves with long swords and the third is a human also with a long sword. They all are wearing a holy symbol. Which is the fighter (or paladin), which is a cleric, which is a 1 cleric/X wizard multiclass? You can't tell what they are just by looking and you can't tell if they are concentrating on a spell. You can't even figure out what spell they are casting if they decide to move their hands and mutter some odd syllables without using a reaction to try to identify it (Xanathars). If they are just pretending to cast a spell can you tell?
Given all of that, no I don't think a commoner can stand beside a battle and say - "Oh! That T-rex is a polymorphed creature and the spell is being maintained by the third guy in the red medium armor over there. The other one is a cleric concentrating on bless and the last one is a paladin concentrating on shield of faith." At least in the games I run, since the rules don't say that concentrating on a spell has any indications that it is happening, I just go with it not being discernible.
I'm just curious what your source is for stating that the details of characters from Greek mythology were widely known? Literacy rates are difficult to know but the numbers I can find on the internet seem to range from 5% to close to 30% for the peak of Greek civilization (likely only in urban settings) though the Greeks did have a strong oral tradition and the epic poems of Homer were translated into Latin by the Romans.
However, large parts of the civilizations were agrarian. Raising crops and animals that supported the farmers and the growing urban areas. Being literate wasn't essential and it isn't clear what stories would get told around the cooking fire or dinner table. The epics of the Illiad and the Odyssey, Hercules, and other similar stories might or might not have circulated widely. It may have depended on the religious context for some of the stories. So I am just curious what makes you say that these stories and their details were widely known.
I'm not sure if lone hunter monsters of the mould of t-rexs or potential legendary parallels like the tarasque would be assumed to naturally fit with people's conceptions of having a loyal pet disposition.
Concentration spells include illusions like silent image and major image, conjuration spells like summon animals or fey, and dominate monster and enchantment spells like Dominate beast, monster and person.
People would have an interest in the ways spells might work and, if they had understood the basics of concentration (and they are basic), they could naturally look for ways to break that likely concentration.
Literacy is common in 5e world and oral traditions, such as of people talking about interesting things while gathered at the tavern, hearth or campfire, would also have been common. People aren't watching tv or playing PlayStation. They'd more often be talking.
I am NOT saying that concentration should be visible. I am saying that the Constitution saving throw made to maintain concentration should be visible. This allows the caster to main the secrecy of who the spellcaster is except in the event that they take damage, in which case the jig is up.
There are multiple game features that require the user to witness the target making a saving throw:
- Astromancy Archive
- School of Divination Portent
- Wild Magic Bend Luck
This would indicate that *saving throws are observable*. Even supposing the cultists don't know what value I'm getting or perhaps even that it's a Constitution saving throw, they should at least be able to see that a saving throw is occurring. And if it happens everytime they damage me with inflict wounds or toll the dead, there's really only one logical conclusion: I'm concentrating on *something*.
That ruling could be interpreted to generally work. The RAW certainly works in that specific way with those items/features.
Crawford just went as far as to say that, "while [concentration is] not meant to be conspicuous, it can be noticed.
Added to that, if creatures knew about the concentration spell mechanic, they might have ideas about what they might be looking for at a time when a saving throw might be being made.
I always found weird that Concentration was a CON save rather than an Intelligence or Wisdom, since to me it seems more a mental achievement than physical one.
Portent doesn’t let a wizard observe and change a saving throw. It allows the wizard to put right replace a 1d20 roll before the roll happens. This is not the same as knowing a creature is making a save based on observation.this feature might be the most “metagame” oriented feature in the game.
Bend luck is written in a way that gives the wild magic sorcerer the ability to cause 1d20 rerolls, and is triggered by using a reaction. It’s worded similarly counterspell, except that it’s a bit more general. This might actually work for or against having the knowledge of the roll depending on DM fiat.
while most creatures are observable while they make saving throws, this doesn’t necessarily mean the saving throws is discernible. I’d say that most mental saves aren’t conspicuous, but the feature that causes the save or the effects afterward might be observable.
a creature using strength for a save might be seen physically resisting an effect. A creature using text Darity for sale might be seen as jumping or moving around an affect.
if the effect isnt observable then perhaps the creature doesn’t even know that it made a savings throw. I mean I walked into creatures know that they’re getting scrying cast on them?
Its like the difference between hitting your pinky toe on an object and screaming in pain Vs holding it cause you don't want to wake up you sibling in the other room. You made your Con save to not scream in pain and shrug it off.
How does the Sorcerer know what to react to?
"When another creature you can see makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can use your reaction and spend 2 sorcery points to roll 1d4 and apply the number rolled as a bonus or penalty (your choice) to the creature’s roll. You can do so after the creature rolls but before any effects of the roll occur."
A logical interpretation is that they do this in response to what they can see.
I'd have given it to Charisma, personally. Charisma when discussing spellcasting, is your manifestation of will, and for me that seems to fit best into Charisma, your determination to maintain your goal and manifest your will upon the world... But they went with Constitution for probably game balance reasons, since Con is universally good stat, but is also only secondary, for all spellcasters.
It would create an interesting dynamic if concentration checks were Charisma-save based though. Bards, Paladins, Warlocks and Sorcerers would all be decent at it by default (having both stat + prof), clerics only marginally less so(prof only). So only really Druid, and Wizards would have a harder time concentrating(neither stat nor prof). I sorta like that spread TBH.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That honor must absolutely go to the 7th level Battlemaster ability:
This implies that you character knows what all of these are now. He actively knows that there are strength, dex, and con scores. He knows what an armor class is and HP. HP are super abstract yet he knows they exist and who has how many, even in relative terms this knowledge is insane for an in-universe creature to posses. He also knows about levels, and the distinction between types of levels, even if only fighter vs all others. This is one of the weirdest most metagame abilities in existence and gives the character information that would probably cause a sane person to lose their mind if they knew. They'd quickly be able to piece together that all of their known existence is a collective fever dream of a bunch of higher-dimensional beings that exist as puppeteers moving around and controlling his entire gamified reality. He'd scream in terror if he could, but his players didn't say he does, so he cannot.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Wrong..... this skill lets you know if two of these are equal, superior, or inferior. It does not tell you the number or how much. Marital artists and fighters for years have been able to read there opposition and get an idea of if they are better or weaker then them. This isnt meta this is called being good at what you do. Things like HP if someone is injured they will act and seem different then someone in full health.
The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice
? Did I say it lets you know the exact number? ... or did I say 'relative' value?
I said it lets you know the existence of the score. That's super metagame. The character shouldn't know of the existence of scores. This ability says they know of them.
The Battlemaster knows the existence of these stats and their relative value. That's super 4th wall breaking.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Not metagame at all really.
The character can determine if the thing it is looking at is stronger, equal or weaker physically than them. The character isn't seeing those statistics specifically, it is the player who is told the result; it is up to them to decide how to express the relative power of each particular statistic.
I mean depending on the DM they can be as bad as saying that someone with a str score one point lower is inferior to you. Not really 4th wall breaking when people do this in real life. MMA fighters, martial artists, boxers size up there opinionate all the time. And I mean PC know their own stats why wouldn't they have some idea that maybe the dude walking around in full plate mail maybe stronger then them, this just gives them an idea how much stronger.
Man that guy over there is carring himself with ease in that full armor while I have issues wearing my chain mail all day. - superior str
Man did you see that women dodge the bar maid so the maid didnt spilled the drinks they were carrying. If that was me I would have been able to catch the tray and prevent the drinks from spilling. - Equal dex or superior AC
Man that guy can hold his liquor he drinks like a dwarf.. Me I would be two ales in and need a bed for the night - Inferior con
Man I haven't seen someone move like that since my master taught me back in training - Superior fighter lvl
None of these things are 4th wall breaking.
And also I apologize no you didn't say they gave the numbers
I don't disagree with this, but this isn't what the ability says it does. It says you learn the relative value of the stats listed there. And you get to pick which one. This means your character explicitly understands stats exist, and that those listed there have some concrete metric.
You're right, none of that is 4th wall breaking but none of that is what the ability does. These are just casual observations anyone can make.
.
Your L7+ Battle master knows that Strength, dexterity, constitution, AC, HP, Levels, and fighter levels all exist. And he knows they have some objective metric that he personally has learned how to get those relative values for by simply observing a target.
Again, your fighter doesn't learn "that guy over there is carring himself with ease in that full armor while I have issues wearing my chain mail all day" he learns if he has a superior "strength score".
It is metagame because you literally are learning the stats of creatures. Relative value only, but even just knowing of the existence of the stats alone is metagame. The characters shouldn't know that levels exist, or HP, or AC etc. Yes, they should know that people have various degree of experience (ie levels) or some would be harder or easier to strike in combat (AC) etc etc. But that isn't what this ability says it does. Your character picks two of those stats, and your character learns their relative value compared to his own. That's absolutely 4th wall breaking.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
According to your logic, the Battle master also knows that a DM exists, since the wording is "The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice:"
Yep - clearly this unknown creature called "DM" tells the battlemaster fighter "Your strength score is lower than that of the creature you are studying". "Your hit points are higher than the creature". Then the voice of this mysterious creature vanishes until the next time you compare yourself to someone else. I can see the battlemaster goign on a quest to discover who this mysterious voice is that gives him this information comparing stats not realizing that it is the DM who is controlling the world the character lives in ...
Alternatively .. maybe .. the rules are written in order to mechanically describe how the ability works. The PLAYER knows the relative value of specific stats - the CHARACTER knows whether they are stronger, more agile, less hardy, more durable or harder to hit - comparing the combat abilities of one creature to another. On the other hand, if the characters know that they are rolling dice to decide whether they hit or not then it really doesn't matter.
However, perhaps the comments were just intended as humor since from a fundamental role playing game point of view the characters are NOT aware of any of the mechanics at all. The characters don't see a dice roll, they see whether their friend was able to resist an effect (if it was perceivable) or not.