In the case of Rime's, my houserule of swapping attacks for shoves would mean if an enemy had two attacks, they could shove two of their fellows out of the ice, thus breaking them free.
I haven't played that module but are mooks with multi-attack really that plentiful to make a difference? Especially ones with a low enough Con save to be susceptible to the spell.
If an NPC is adjacent to no one or has no friends willing to spend an action to free them or an attack to shove them out, they can still use their action to break free.
Well technically he can use his action to try to break free. That's a fairly big difference that you seems to have glossed over. The spell as written requires an action and that's it. Both Escaping a Grapple and a Shove requires checks to be made so all you've really done is introduce the possibility of failure (for the gain of some possibly improved action economy).
Also have the question about the DC for the Shove to break someone free. Shouldn't be a contest (as it usually is) as it is the ice that you need to break. Spell save seems the logical choice but that might be a bit to tough (especially if they are having that much trouble doing a Con save v the spell save DC).
In the case of Rime's, my houserule of swapping attacks for shoves would mean if an enemy had two attacks, they could shove two of their fellows out of the ice, thus breaking them free.
I haven't played that module but are mooks with multi-attack really that plentiful to make a difference? Especially ones with a low enough Con save to be susceptible to the spell.
Yes, actually. I'm not even talking about this specific module, I can think of a fair number of low CR fodder enemies that get Multiattack.
If an NPC is adjacent to no one or has no friends willing to spend an action to free them or an attack to shove them out, they can still use their action to break free.
Well technically he can use his action to try to break free. That's a fairly big difference that you seems to have glossed over. The spell as written requires an action and that's it. Both Escaping a Grapple and a Shove requires checks to be made so all you've really done is introduce the possibility of failure (for the gain of some possibly improved action economy).
Also have the question about the DC for the Shove to break someone free. Shouldn't be a contest (as it usually is) as it is the ice that you need to break. Spell save seems the logical choice but that might be a bit to tough (especially if they are having that much trouble doing a Con save v the spell save DC).
You do have a point on how shove does not have a provision for choosing to willingly fail the check. I had forgotten that bit, used to Telekinetic and its explicit rider of, you can choose to willingly fail the save. Making it universal would make the grappled condition a joke too, so that's out. There's already been official rulings on how a target being shoved out of grapple range ends the grapple. I'm inclined to stick to those; the ice can be removed by an action from anyone, even a Tiny creature, so I don't think they're sturdy enough to warrant testing against Con.
So shove potentially allows more people to be freed but at a risk. That seems like an acceptable trade-off, although I don't like the idea of doing multiple rolls each time to determine if it works.
Still. As mentioned in the thread, switching from Speed set to zero to Grappled would mean things with Grappled Immunity have their own type advantage to it. Easier to use that dynamic in a story, more give and take in some enemies it's good against, some aren't. I like that in a control effect.
Thanks for pointing this out, it's well worth pondering.
I wouldn't worry about it unless you've had a days worth of encounters completely shat all over because of that one spell.
It sounds a handy spell for buying a round before a bunch of enemies can close to melee but most monsters have to close and will have ranged options if they end up iced. Against a bunch of skirmishers that know what they're doing it's a bit "meh" as it'll slow someone down that really doesn't care about being slowed. I suppose if your enemies line up like Napoleonic Imperial Guards then it'd be really effective so maybe it's designed to freeze Hobgoblins.
You do have a point on how shove does not have a provision for choosing to willingly fail the check. I had forgotten that bit, used to Telekinetic and its explicit rider of, you can choose to willingly fail the save. Making it universal would make the grappled condition a joke too, so that's out. There's already been official rulings on how a target being shoved out of grapple range ends the grapple.
I think you are looking at this a bit wrong tbh. If you want to shove someone free from a Grapple you shouldn't do the contest against the one being grappled, you should do it against the one doing the grappling (or in the case of the spell, against the ice) as that is the effect that is stopping movement. At least that's how I would rule it.
I wouldn't worry about it unless you've had a days worth of encounters completely shat all over because of that one spell.
It sounds a handy spell for buying a round before a bunch of enemies can close to melee but most monsters have to close and will have ranged options if they end up iced. Against a bunch of skirmishers that know what they're doing it's a bit "meh" as it'll slow someone down that really doesn't care about being slowed. I suppose if your enemies line up like Napoleonic Imperial Guards then it'd be really effective so maybe it's designed to freeze Hobgoblins.
More the potential problems seem apparent, and I'd rather not have to design any melee only monsters around, okay so they may get nuked and stuck in place, how to keep them threatening? And if I hand the guy this spell and decide nope this was a mistake, it's a little late to take it back.
Hence me posting the topic. As it is published, can it be worked around? Yes. Does it seem like more trouble than it's worth? Also yes, if it leads to mostly more frustration for me and basically padding an encounter, especially if it's time and attention I could really use elsewhere. In a different campaign I'd feel differently. Like if the party was going into the Nine Hells? I'd think I'd sign off on it and wish them luck cause they're going to need it.
I could make all my monsters fight like a smooth, well coordinated spec ops team that's always on the same page and always makes the optimal choice, thus thwarting the party's ability to meaningfully slow them down or catch many in an AoE, but that would be really frustrating for the players.
...I don't think I mentioned this, but this is the first campaign I'm DMing. I've also seen the results of just allowing all published material, cause it's official so it's probably balanced. That has backfired before, so I'm double-checking what I allow. I'd rather say no for now, see how the coming encounters hold up, and then reconsider whether to allow it, instead of saying yes and then have to ramp things up.
You guys are convincing me that it's not as bad as I fear. I'm just still weighing whether it's worth it.
You do have a point on how shove does not have a provision for choosing to willingly fail the check. I had forgotten that bit, used to Telekinetic and its explicit rider of, you can choose to willingly fail the save. Making it universal would make the grappled condition a joke too, so that's out. There's already been official rulings on how a target being shoved out of grapple range ends the grapple.
I think you are looking at this a bit wrong tbh. If you want to shove someone free from a Grapple you shouldn't do the contest against the one being grappled, you should do it against the one doing the grappling (or in the case of the spell, against the ice) as that is the effect that is stopping movement. At least that's how I would rule it.
I agree that you could logic out that this is what happens, and were this one creature grappling another, I probably wouldn't bat an eye at it. But by the RAW, the Shove check is done against the target of the shove, not whatever is grappling them. The grapple rules also clearly state that if someone is moved out of the range in which they'd be grappled, the grapple is broken.
In this particular case, since the ice can be removed by anyone's action, even a passing rat's, I'm really not keen to attribute a spell save DC to the ice. That's definitely OP. Also, if I'm going to make the status effect being Grappled, I should definitely be keeping the mechanics of Grappled consistent.
I wouldn't worry about it unless you've had a days worth of encounters completely shat all over because of that one spell.
It sounds a handy spell for buying a round before a bunch of enemies can close to melee but most monsters have to close and will have ranged options if they end up iced. Against a bunch of skirmishers that know what they're doing it's a bit "meh" as it'll slow someone down that really doesn't care about being slowed. I suppose if your enemies line up like Napoleonic Imperial Guards then it'd be really effective so maybe it's designed to freeze Hobgoblins.
More the potential problems seem apparent, and I'd rather not have to design any melee only monsters around, okay so they may get nuked and stuck in place, how to keep them threatening? And if I hand the guy this spell and decide nope this was a mistake, it's a little late to take it back.
Hence me posting the topic. As it is published, can it be worked around? Yes. Does it seem like more trouble than it's worth? Also yes, if it leads to mostly more frustration for me and basically padding an encounter, especially if it's time and attention I could really use elsewhere. In a different campaign I'd feel differently. Like if the party was going into the Nine Hells? I'd think I'd sign off on it and wish them luck cause they're going to need it.
I could make all my monsters fight like a smooth, well coordinated spec ops team that's always on the same page and always makes the optimal choice, thus thwarting the party's ability to meaningfully slow them down or catch many in an AoE, but that would be really frustrating for the players.
...I don't think I mentioned this, but this is the first campaign I'm DMing. I've also seen the results of just allowing all published material, cause it's official so it's probably balanced. That has backfired before, so I'm double-checking what I allow. I'd rather say no for now, see how the coming encounters hold up, and then reconsider whether to allow it, instead of saying yes and then have to ramp things up.
You guys are convincing me that it's not as bad as I fear. I'm just still weighing whether it's worth it.
I have this spell on a character of mine and I don't often use it, and have as of late been not-preparing it altogether. The odds of being able to find yourself in a situation where it is the right spell to use is actually much lower that you're thinking. That's why it is so odd for me to see someone having this much hesitancy towards a spell, when by every metric I know personally it isn't that great. At least, my experience tells me this. I think maybe one fight of all the ones he's been in have found a 'right' moment to use this spell.
If your player's low level he can cast 2nd level spells only a couple times in the entire day. This spell is his 'big guns' and if it isn't carrying the day for him it was the wrong time to use it. He cannot hit party members with it because of obvious reasons, so once enemies start mixing into melee range this spell is almost certainly entirely off the options lists. He's got to use it in the opener, when enemies are closing the distance, and he's got to use it when a sufficient number of them are bunched up to make it worth it to use it.
And you, the dm, have direct control over if that is going to even happen.
I've found Web, or Flaming Sphere..or TBH an upcast Tasha's Caustic Brew are almost always going to fill the 'need of the moment' better than Rime would. Rime's size makes it unwieldy, the speed=0 is useless against ranged enemies. Web is better lockdown, Flaming Sphere is better and more persistent area denial and battlefield control, and Tasha's is precision longlasting damage or action removal. Any one of the spells does part of what Rime does, but they all do it better than Rime. Rime's single largest strength is that it does several things mediocre, so that if you can only pick one spell to hamfist into all those roles then this is the one to do it with. If you can only pick one, Rime is a multitool.
If you allow it will it from time to time make a big impact? Yes. But that is exactly what spells are supposed to do. When the right situation presents itself the character's highest level spells should have the potential to save the day. That's the whole purpose of being a spellcaster instead of a fighter. A fighter will out perform a spellcaster all day every day except for the rounds in which the spellcaster is tossing their powerful spells around. Having powerful spells to do that with, well, that's the whole point.
And, like I said, I have more or less stopped preparing it because this character has the luxury of picking their prepared spells and the catch-all of Rime isn't nearly as handy when you can prep the specific individual spells that do everything it does but better. A sorcerer wouldn't have that luxury and so its a great pick for them. But it isn't OP in general.
Situations where Rime cannot get all the enemies or is otherwise pointless:
They're not all inside the area of a 30ft cone.
Some of your allies are also in the area with them.
They have ranged attacks.
They don't care about cold damage.
Getting close enough to cone them will get your low-HP/AC spellcaster straight up killed.
They're coming in from around obstacles, like doors, walls, rocks, cavern features, from underwater, robust shrubbery.
They come in waves or staggering from typical initiative rolls
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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I haven't played that module but are mooks with multi-attack really that plentiful to make a difference? Especially ones with a low enough Con save to be susceptible to the spell.
Well technically he can use his action to try to break free. That's a fairly big difference that you seems to have glossed over. The spell as written requires an action and that's it. Both Escaping a Grapple and a Shove requires checks to be made so all you've really done is introduce the possibility of failure (for the gain of some possibly improved action economy).
Also have the question about the DC for the Shove to break someone free. Shouldn't be a contest (as it usually is) as it is the ice that you need to break. Spell save seems the logical choice but that might be a bit to tough (especially if they are having that much trouble doing a Con save v the spell save DC).
Yes, actually. I'm not even talking about this specific module, I can think of a fair number of low CR fodder enemies that get Multiattack.
You do have a point on how shove does not have a provision for choosing to willingly fail the check. I had forgotten that bit, used to Telekinetic and its explicit rider of, you can choose to willingly fail the save. Making it universal would make the grappled condition a joke too, so that's out. There's already been official rulings on how a target being shoved out of grapple range ends the grapple. I'm inclined to stick to those; the ice can be removed by an action from anyone, even a Tiny creature, so I don't think they're sturdy enough to warrant testing against Con.
So shove potentially allows more people to be freed but at a risk. That seems like an acceptable trade-off, although I don't like the idea of doing multiple rolls each time to determine if it works.
Still. As mentioned in the thread, switching from Speed set to zero to Grappled would mean things with Grappled Immunity have their own type advantage to it. Easier to use that dynamic in a story, more give and take in some enemies it's good against, some aren't. I like that in a control effect.
Thanks for pointing this out, it's well worth pondering.
I wouldn't worry about it unless you've had a days worth of encounters completely shat all over because of that one spell.
It sounds a handy spell for buying a round before a bunch of enemies can close to melee but most monsters have to close and will have ranged options if they end up iced. Against a bunch of skirmishers that know what they're doing it's a bit "meh" as it'll slow someone down that really doesn't care about being slowed. I suppose if your enemies line up like Napoleonic Imperial Guards then it'd be really effective so maybe it's designed to freeze Hobgoblins.
I think you are looking at this a bit wrong tbh. If you want to shove someone free from a Grapple you shouldn't do the contest against the one being grappled, you should do it against the one doing the grappling (or in the case of the spell, against the ice) as that is the effect that is stopping movement. At least that's how I would rule it.
More the potential problems seem apparent, and I'd rather not have to design any melee only monsters around, okay so they may get nuked and stuck in place, how to keep them threatening? And if I hand the guy this spell and decide nope this was a mistake, it's a little late to take it back.
Hence me posting the topic. As it is published, can it be worked around? Yes. Does it seem like more trouble than it's worth? Also yes, if it leads to mostly more frustration for me and basically padding an encounter, especially if it's time and attention I could really use elsewhere. In a different campaign I'd feel differently. Like if the party was going into the Nine Hells? I'd think I'd sign off on it and wish them luck cause they're going to need it.
I could make all my monsters fight like a smooth, well coordinated spec ops team that's always on the same page and always makes the optimal choice, thus thwarting the party's ability to meaningfully slow them down or catch many in an AoE, but that would be really frustrating for the players.
...I don't think I mentioned this, but this is the first campaign I'm DMing. I've also seen the results of just allowing all published material, cause it's official so it's probably balanced. That has backfired before, so I'm double-checking what I allow. I'd rather say no for now, see how the coming encounters hold up, and then reconsider whether to allow it, instead of saying yes and then have to ramp things up.
You guys are convincing me that it's not as bad as I fear. I'm just still weighing whether it's worth it.
I agree that you could logic out that this is what happens, and were this one creature grappling another, I probably wouldn't bat an eye at it. But by the RAW, the Shove check is done against the target of the shove, not whatever is grappling them. The grapple rules also clearly state that if someone is moved out of the range in which they'd be grappled, the grapple is broken.
In this particular case, since the ice can be removed by anyone's action, even a passing rat's, I'm really not keen to attribute a spell save DC to the ice. That's definitely OP. Also, if I'm going to make the status effect being Grappled, I should definitely be keeping the mechanics of Grappled consistent.
I have this spell on a character of mine and I don't often use it, and have as of late been not-preparing it altogether. The odds of being able to find yourself in a situation where it is the right spell to use is actually much lower that you're thinking. That's why it is so odd for me to see someone having this much hesitancy towards a spell, when by every metric I know personally it isn't that great. At least, my experience tells me this. I think maybe one fight of all the ones he's been in have found a 'right' moment to use this spell.
If your player's low level he can cast 2nd level spells only a couple times in the entire day. This spell is his 'big guns' and if it isn't carrying the day for him it was the wrong time to use it. He cannot hit party members with it because of obvious reasons, so once enemies start mixing into melee range this spell is almost certainly entirely off the options lists. He's got to use it in the opener, when enemies are closing the distance, and he's got to use it when a sufficient number of them are bunched up to make it worth it to use it.
And you, the dm, have direct control over if that is going to even happen.
I've found Web, or Flaming Sphere..or TBH an upcast Tasha's Caustic Brew are almost always going to fill the 'need of the moment' better than Rime would. Rime's size makes it unwieldy, the speed=0 is useless against ranged enemies. Web is better lockdown, Flaming Sphere is better and more persistent area denial and battlefield control, and Tasha's is precision longlasting damage or action removal. Any one of the spells does part of what Rime does, but they all do it better than Rime. Rime's single largest strength is that it does several things mediocre, so that if you can only pick one spell to hamfist into all those roles then this is the one to do it with. If you can only pick one, Rime is a multitool.
If you allow it will it from time to time make a big impact? Yes. But that is exactly what spells are supposed to do. When the right situation presents itself the character's highest level spells should have the potential to save the day. That's the whole purpose of being a spellcaster instead of a fighter. A fighter will out perform a spellcaster all day every day except for the rounds in which the spellcaster is tossing their powerful spells around. Having powerful spells to do that with, well, that's the whole point.
And, like I said, I have more or less stopped preparing it because this character has the luxury of picking their prepared spells and the catch-all of Rime isn't nearly as handy when you can prep the specific individual spells that do everything it does but better. A sorcerer wouldn't have that luxury and so its a great pick for them. But it isn't OP in general.
Situations where Rime cannot get all the enemies or is otherwise pointless:
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.