Obscurement does not apply to viewing out of said area. Scanning through a few forums. everyone agrees that at least with darkness, it is absolutely ridiculous to think that if you are hiding in a closet in darkness, and someone steps into the room the closet is in, and that room being dimly lit, that you inside the closet, can not see the person right in front of you just a few feet in the dimly lit area. So far, people that are saying you can not, because you are in darkness, and in a heavily obscured area (therefore your vision is "blocked"), when given this scenario are either saying "You attack from inside the closet at disadvantage because you can not see your target" or "The rule is broken". Neither makes sense.
Let's start there. I say, your interpretation is neither realistic, nor practical in game setting. My interpretation, which is that you use the rules for whatever obscurity level your target is in, not yourself, works perfectly in this case. In the case of a human rogue with no special sight, can see, from a hidden position, in the total darkness provided by the closet, into the dimly lit area, with disadvantage to perception checks when looking into that dimly lit area. That is the only rule in this scenario that applies (to the rogue), there are no disadvantages to attack OUT of darkness for the person inside darkness, being that at the moment, there are no cover issues or magical issues. The person in Dim light has disadvantage to attack the person in the closet, if said person (in the closet) is not hidden. If that person is hidden, the attacker outside of darkness, in the dimly lit area must also guess the hidden persons location (unless the closet is only one square big, and the character knows this). This is a more realistic approach, as anyone who has ever hid in a closet playing hide-n-go-seek knows. Or anyone going camping at night knows.
... if you are hiding in a closet in darkness, and someone steps into the room the closet is in, and that room being dimly lit, ... you inside the closet, can not see the person right in front of you just a few feet in the dimly lit area. ...
I doubt that many people would run it like this but, if they do, I'm sure they can still have a fun game.
A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. ...
You A, can't target someone with a energy arrow strike if you can't see them, either in total cover or heavy obscurement, right? And B, Fog is considered a gas, not a solid. That's basic science. Obscurement and cover must BOTH be used when the Obscuring thing can potentially provide cover.
You can always target creature that you can't see wether invisible or in heavily obscured area, unless the attack or spell specifically target a creature you can see. That's why such thing grant disadvantage on the attack rolls. See Unseen Attackers and Targets for more details;
Unseen Attackers and Targets: Combatants often try to escape their foes’ notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness. When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll
DM: The enemy spellcaster disappears in the chaos of combat, only his constructs remain for you to fight!
Player: I shoot the invisible spellcaster, it is only at disadvantage because they're unseen. I roll a 17 and hit for 12 damage.
DM: No.. no they're invisible you don't even know they're here, let alone where to shoot if they were here.
Player: Naw, I attacked em at disadvantage and hit, sorry pal. Plaguescarred told me that's how it works.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
He disappeared in plain sight, therefore he can not hide. He is unseen only. If he moves, he leaves footsteps, makes noise etc. So you still know where he is, you just can't see him. He can not hide without cunning action, he already took an action to cast the spell Invisibility.
Next turn, he can now roll a stealth check to hide. Now you don't know where he is and must guess the location. Then attack at disadvantage. Missing does not reveal whether the caster is in the area you targeted or not.
You A, can't target someone with a energy arrow strike if you can't see them, either in total cover or heavy obscurement, right? And B, Fog is considered a gas, not a solid. That's basic science. Obscurement and cover must BOTH be used when the Obscuring thing can potentially provide cover.
You can always target creature that you can't see wether invisible or in heavily obscured area, unless the attack or spell specifically target a creature you can see. That's why such thing grant disadvantage on the attack rolls. See Unseen Attackers and Targets for more details;
Unseen Attackers and Targets: Combatants often try to escape their foes’ notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness. When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll
DM: The enemy spellcaster disappears in the chaos of combat, only his constructs remain for you to fight!
Player: I shoot the invisible spellcaster, it is only at disadvantage because they're unseen. I roll a 17 and hit for 12 damage.
DM: No.. no they're invisible you don't even know they're here, let alone where to shoot if they were here.
Player: Naw, I attacked em at disadvantage and hit, sorry pal. Plaguescarred told me that's how it works.
If a DM makes a decision, that's discussion over. Otherwise, there's plenty potentially to discuss.
Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.
When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.
When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.
If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
In my room, the light does not enter the closet (in real life). Also, if you are using roll20, you can clearly see that light does not go into a closet, regardless of wether the door is open or not, depending on the angle of the entry to the closet, and the angle in which the light is coming in using dynamic lighting. If the entry to the closet is perpendicular to the light source, and centered on the light source, light can not get in. [REDACTED]
Notes: All users are expected to remain civil in their interactions
He disappeared in plain sight, therefore he can not hide. He is unseen only. If he moves, he leaves footsteps, makes noise etc. So you still know where he is, you just can't see him. He can not hide without cunning action, he already took an action to cast the spell Invisibility.
Next turn, he can now roll a stealth check to hide. Now you don't know where he is and must guess the location. Then attack at disadvantage. Missing does not reveal whether the caster is in the area you targeted or not.
Simple.
You don't know he leaves footsteps or makes noises. So how precisely do you know where he is?
Most people don't have echolocation. In fact, no people do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
In my room, the light does not enter the closet (in real life).
Your room and everything in it is painted vanta black? Neat. If not... then light does in fact enter it, even if not directly from the light source, but from reflected light off all the other objects/walls/etc
Also, if you are using roll20, you can clearly see that light does not go into a closet, regardless of wether the door is open or not, depending on the angle of the entry to the closet, and the angle in which the light is coming in using dynamic lighting. If the entry to the closet is perpendicular to the light source, and centered on the light source, light can not get in.
roll20 doesn't do light diffusion. It is resource heavy to simulate.
Do I really have to draw this out? That is just a weird response. You do not dictate the lighting situation of another's example because weirdly, you can not see the possibility, which is itself weird, like you have never seen a dark closet as a kid? Also, you did not answer clearly. I didn't ask you what everyone agrees with. And you are not clear in what you mean by darkness should be treated differently. Which is why I can't waste my time responding. You just are not making any sense at all.
If your room is well lit the closet likely isn't "darkness". It is just relatively "darker" than the room.
Similarly, under an umbrella at the beach at high noon is "darker" than not under the umbrella but is is not, under any sane definition: "darkness".
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
He disappeared in plain sight, therefore he can not hide. He is unseen only. If he moves, he leaves footsteps, makes noise etc. So you still know where he is, you just can't see him. He can not hide without cunning action, he already took an action to cast the spell Invisibility.
Next turn, he can now roll a stealth check to hide. Now you don't know where he is and must guess the location. Then attack at disadvantage. Missing does not reveal whether the caster is in the area you targeted or not.
Simple.
You don't know he leaves footsteps or makes noises. So how precisely do you know where he is?
Most people don't have echolocation. In fact, no people do.
The game assumes that a creature's location is known if it's not trying to hide its presence. That is the whole point of the hide action and the stealth skill. I am certain you know all the relevant rules on that topic.
He disappeared in plain sight, therefore he can not hide. He is unseen only. If he moves, he leaves footsteps, makes noise etc. So you still know where he is, you just can't see him. He can not hide without cunning action, he already took an action to cast the spell Invisibility.
Next turn, he can now roll a stealth check to hide. Now you don't know where he is and must guess the location. Then attack at disadvantage. Missing does not reveal whether the caster is in the area you targeted or not.
Simple.
You don't know he leaves footsteps or makes noises. So how precisely do you know where he is?
Most people don't have echolocation. In fact, no people do.
The game assumes that a creature's location is known if it's not trying to hide its presence. That is the whole point of the hide action and the stealth skill. I am certain you know all the relevant rules on that topic.
Not sure that you need to hide to move quietly. It implies that one has to find places to hide one's feet. Movement does not work that way. The Hide action only talks about becoming unseen, not about moving unheard.
Invisibility covers the unseen portion, so hiding should not be needed.
If you Hide successfully, you are hidden. If you are hidden, you are unseen and unheard.
"If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
He disappeared in plain sight, therefore he can not hide. He is unseen only. If he moves, he leaves footsteps, makes noise etc. So you still know where he is, you just can't see him. He can not hide without cunning action, he already took an action to cast the spell Invisibility.
Next turn, he can now roll a stealth check to hide. Now you don't know where he is and must guess the location. Then attack at disadvantage. Missing does not reveal whether the caster is in the area you targeted or not.
Simple.
You don't know he leaves footsteps or makes noises. So how precisely do you know where he is?
Most people don't have echolocation. In fact, no people do.
The game assumes that a creature's location is known if it's not trying to hide its presence. That is the whole point of the hide action and the stealth skill. I am certain you know all the relevant rules on that topic.
Moving silently is a stealth check. In order to be hidden you must be both UNSEEN and UNHEARD. Please reread the rules for hiding
You are conflating the definition of hidden with a need to use a hide action to achieve said state. If you are invisible, you are unseen. If you are not moving, you are likely unheard. A hide action lets you get to that state without need of a spell.
Moving silently is a stealth check but that does not mean it requires a hide action.
If you can simply make a stealth check whenever you want, without having to take the Hide action, what function does the action then have at all?
"When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding."
Moving silently is a stealth check. In order to be hidden you must be both UNSEEN and UNHEARD. Please reread the rules for hiding
You are conflating the definition of hidden with a need to use a hide action to achieve said state. If you are invisible, you are unseen. If you are not moving, you are likely unheard. A hide action lets you get to that state without need of a spell.
Moving silently is a stealth check but that does not mean it requires a hide action.
If you can simply make a stealth check whenever you want, without having to take the Hide action, what function does the action then have at all?
"When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding."
You cannot go unseen without magic or a hide action. Hide makes you both unseen and unheard. A stealth check lets you move unheard.
One can move quietly completely in the open. That would only be a stealth check and if anyone was looking that way, they would be seen even if not heard.
Of course you can be unseen without magic or a hide action. Move into a heavily obscured area or blind your foe. either will likely make you unseen. There are no rules for becoming unheard other than the rules for hiding or deafening your foe. If you want to hide and gain the benefits of hiding, you must take the Hide action. You generally don't get to decide when to make skill checks. But the Hide action is an action that specifically allows you to make a Stealth check in order to gain the benefits of being hidden.
The benefit of being invisible in the context of hiding is that you can take the Hide while standing out in the open, when you'd normally need to find some cover.
I did not say the room was well lit. I said the room was dimly lit. The room is an example. Any room, where you have bright light, dim light, an an area with total darkness will suffice. Room physics are semantics and distractions. Also, pointless.
Moving silently is a stealth check. In order to be hidden you must be both UNSEEN and UNHEARD. Please reread the rules for hiding
You are conflating the definition of hidden with a need to use a hide action to achieve said state. If you are invisible, you are unseen. If you are not moving, you are likely unheard. A hide action lets you get to that state without need of a spell.
Moving silently is a stealth check but that does not mean it requires a hide action.
If you can simply make a stealth check whenever you want, without having to take the Hide action, what function does the action then have at all?
"When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding."
You cannot go unseen without magic or a hide action. Hide makes you both unseen and unheard. A stealth check lets you move unheard.
One can move quietly completely in the open. That would only be a stealth check and if anyone was looking that way, they would be seen even if not heard.
Of course you can be unseen without magic or a hide action. Move into a heavily obscured area or blind your foe. either will likely make you unseen. There are no rules for becoming unheard other than the rules for hiding or deafening your foe. If you want to hide and gain the benefits of hiding, you must take the Hide action. You generally don't get to decide when to make skill checks. But the Hide action is an action that specifically allows you to make a Stealth check in order to gain the benefits of being hidden.
The benefit of being invisible in the context of hiding is that you can take the Hide while standing out in the open, when you'd normally need to find some cover.
Yes you can be unseen without magic or hide action (heavy obscurity, total cover). There are rules for being unheard. It is a stealth check. Also, perception checks involving hearing. Yes, you can take the hide action while standing in the open. But, not on one turn unless you can do it as a bonus action since the first action was to turn invisible. they are both actions. You will have to wait until you have another action.
He disappeared in plain sight, therefore he can not hide. He is unseen only. If he moves, he leaves footsteps, makes noise etc. So you still know where he is, you just can't see him. He can not hide without cunning action, he already took an action to cast the spell Invisibility.
Next turn, he can now roll a stealth check to hide. Now you don't know where he is and must guess the location. Then attack at disadvantage. Missing does not reveal whether the caster is in the area you targeted or not.
Simple.
You don't know he leaves footsteps or makes noises. So how precisely do you know where he is?
Most people don't have echolocation. In fact, no people do.
The game assumes that a creature's location is known if it's not trying to hide its presence. That is the whole point of the hide action and the stealth skill. I am certain you know all the relevant rules on that topic.
This is absurd and obviously incorrect. You do not know the location of every single creature in existence that isn't taking the hide action.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Moving silently is a stealth check. In order to be hidden you must be both UNSEEN and UNHEARD. Please reread the rules for hiding
You are conflating the definition of hidden with a need to use a hide action to achieve said state. If you are invisible, you are unseen. If you are not moving, you are likely unheard. A hide action lets you get to that state without need of a spell.
Moving silently is a stealth check but that does not mean it requires a hide action.
If you can simply make a stealth check whenever you want, without having to take the Hide action, what function does the action then have at all?
"When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding."
You cannot go unseen without magic or a hide action. Hide makes you both unseen and unheard. A stealth check lets you move unheard.
One can move quietly completely in the open. That would only be a stealth check and if anyone was looking that way, they would be seen even if not heard.
Of course you can be unseen without magic or a hide action. Move into a heavily obscured area or blind your foe. either will likely make you unseen. There are no rules for becoming unheard other than the rules for hiding or deafening your foe. If you want to hide and gain the benefits of hiding, you must take the Hide action. You generally don't get to decide when to make skill checks. But the Hide action is an action that specifically allows you to make a Stealth check in order to gain the benefits of being hidden.
The benefit of being invisible in the context of hiding is that you can take the Hide while standing out in the open, when you'd normally need to find some cover.
Rules for becoming unheard... think about that one for a moment.
Sound and light are very different.
Light is external. A light source radiates. The light bounces off objects and back to the viewer's eyes allowing them to see. To be unseen, you need to actively hide from the light sources, to ensure either that no light is reflected off you or that any light that is reflected off you either does not reach the eyes of a would be viewer or is transformed in such a way that you appear to blend in, technically seen but not noticed.
Sound, on the other hand, is not some external radiant source. Sound is produced by the actions of the being who could potentially be heard. You do not 'become unheard.' There is no rule to become unheard because it is not a thing. You are actively and constantly careful how you move, where and how you step. You do not make less noise by moving behind objects or trying to disguise your foot falls as something else. Unless you are naturally a heavy breather, when you are stationary, you are likely naturally very quiet. Automatically. Now if you move, that can normally be heard, but you start unheard until you do something that can be heard. And you stop being heard when you stop doing things that can be heard. Hence no rule to become unheard.
It would be, dare I say it, unheard of!
Unseen Attackers and Targets
Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.
When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.
When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
It literally says "unheard".....
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Obscurement does not apply to viewing out of said area. Scanning through a few forums. everyone agrees that at least with darkness, it is absolutely ridiculous to think that if you are hiding in a closet in darkness, and someone steps into the room the closet is in, and that room being dimly lit, that you inside the closet, can not see the person right in front of you just a few feet in the dimly lit area. So far, people that are saying you can not, because you are in darkness, and in a heavily obscured area (therefore your vision is "blocked"), when given this scenario are either saying "You attack from inside the closet at disadvantage because you can not see your target" or "The rule is broken". Neither makes sense.
Let's start there. I say, your interpretation is neither realistic, nor practical in game setting. My interpretation, which is that you use the rules for whatever obscurity level your target is in, not yourself, works perfectly in this case. In the case of a human rogue with no special sight, can see, from a hidden position, in the total darkness provided by the closet, into the dimly lit area, with disadvantage to perception checks when looking into that dimly lit area. That is the only rule in this scenario that applies (to the rogue), there are no disadvantages to attack OUT of darkness for the person inside darkness, being that at the moment, there are no cover issues or magical issues. The person in Dim light has disadvantage to attack the person in the closet, if said person (in the closet) is not hidden. If that person is hidden, the attacker outside of darkness, in the dimly lit area must also guess the hidden persons location (unless the closet is only one square big, and the character knows this). This is a more realistic approach, as anyone who has ever hid in a closet playing hide-n-go-seek knows. Or anyone going camping at night knows.
What say you to this.
RAW,
I doubt that many people would run it like this but, if they do, I'm sure they can still have a fun game.
DM: The enemy spellcaster disappears in the chaos of combat, only his constructs remain for you to fight!
Player: I shoot the invisible spellcaster, it is only at disadvantage because they're unseen. I roll a 17 and hit for 12 damage.
DM: No.. no they're invisible you don't even know they're here, let alone where to shoot if they were here.
Player: Naw, I attacked em at disadvantage and hit, sorry pal. Plaguescarred told me that's how it works.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
He disappeared in plain sight, therefore he can not hide. He is unseen only. If he moves, he leaves footsteps, makes noise etc. So you still know where he is, you just can't see him. He can not hide without cunning action, he already took an action to cast the spell Invisibility.
Next turn, he can now roll a stealth check to hide. Now you don't know where he is and must guess the location. Then attack at disadvantage. Missing does not reveal whether the caster is in the area you targeted or not.
Simple.
If a DM makes a decision, that's discussion over. Otherwise, there's plenty potentially to discuss.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/combat#UnseenAttackersandTargets
In my room, the light does not enter the closet (in real life). Also, if you are using roll20, you can clearly see that light does not go into a closet, regardless of wether the door is open or not, depending on the angle of the entry to the closet, and the angle in which the light is coming in using dynamic lighting. If the entry to the closet is perpendicular to the light source, and centered on the light source, light can not get in. [REDACTED]
You don't know he leaves footsteps or makes noises. So how precisely do you know where he is?
Most people don't have echolocation. In fact, no people do.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Your room and everything in it is painted vanta black? Neat. If not... then light does in fact enter it, even if not directly from the light source, but from reflected light off all the other objects/walls/etc
roll20 doesn't do light diffusion. It is resource heavy to simulate.
If your room is well lit the closet likely isn't "darkness". It is just relatively "darker" than the room.
Similarly, under an umbrella at the beach at high noon is "darker" than not under the umbrella but is is not, under any sane definition: "darkness".
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I meant total cover or hidden, sorry.
The game assumes that a creature's location is known if it's not trying to hide its presence. That is the whole point of the hide action and the stealth skill. I am certain you know all the relevant rules on that topic.
If you Hide successfully, you are hidden. If you are hidden, you are unseen and unheard.
Thats right
Moving silently is a stealth check. In order to be hidden you must be both UNSEEN and UNHEARD. Please reread the rules for hiding
You are way behind. That comment you quoted is in response to something else. Ty. Thanks for your input.
If you can simply make a stealth check whenever you want, without having to take the Hide action, what function does the action then have at all?
Of course you can be unseen without magic or a hide action. Move into a heavily obscured area or blind your foe. either will likely make you unseen. There are no rules for becoming unheard other than the rules for hiding or deafening your foe. If you want to hide and gain the benefits of hiding, you must take the Hide action. You generally don't get to decide when to make skill checks. But the Hide action is an action that specifically allows you to make a Stealth check in order to gain the benefits of being hidden.
The benefit of being invisible in the context of hiding is that you can take the Hide while standing out in the open, when you'd normally need to find some cover.
I did not say the room was well lit. I said the room was dimly lit. The room is an example. Any room, where you have bright light, dim light, an an area with total darkness will suffice. Room physics are semantics and distractions. Also, pointless.
Yes you can be unseen without magic or hide action (heavy obscurity, total cover). There are rules for being unheard. It is a stealth check. Also, perception checks involving hearing. Yes, you can take the hide action while standing in the open. But, not on one turn unless you can do it as a bonus action since the first action was to turn invisible. they are both actions. You will have to wait until you have another action.
This is absurd and obviously incorrect. You do not know the location of every single creature in existence that isn't taking the hide action.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Unseen Attackers and Targets
Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.
When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.
When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
It literally says "unheard".....