The rogue Blindsense feature states, “Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10 feet of you.”
This means that without this sense, you can not normally know of a hidden creature that is invisible. This means the creature has taken the hide action. This not an argument agains, it is an argument for. The creature has taken the hide action, and you with your super hearing, know where it is. This should also effectively shut done the "If I just stay motionless argument".
Read it again. There is a "or" there. Not an "and". hidden -or- invisible. That means you read it like this:
Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any invisible creature within 10 feet of you.
Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden creature within 10 feet of you.
The existence of this ability is proof that you don't automatically know the location of invisible creatures. This ability is granting you that capability and only if they're within 10ft. Clearly, if everyone just always automatically knows the location of invisible creature you wouldn't need a high level rogue feature to grant that ability.
The 18 level ranger Feral Senses feature states in part, “You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.” If creatures know the location of invisible creatures automatically, then these features would not need to specify the ability to locate invisible creatures, and the usefulness of that aspect of those features would be negated.
"creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened." The ability does not work against hidden creatures if you are either blinded or defend or both. Again, another reading comprehension issue. If the creature is hidden, this ability reveals the creature, as long as you are not blinded or deafened. If you are, it will not work, because the creature has taken the hide action, and your heightened senses reveal it's position by a combination of super sight and super hearing. If you lose anyone of those senses, you lose the ability. The 30 ft is also important, as depending on the environment, 30 ft might not cause an interaction. The DM decides this. Such as walking through forest and you come up on a camp, but you are not noticed yet. Interactions have not occurred, or initiative is not rolled. But if you have feral senses, the dm could rule that the you do know, even if invisible. A better argument would be if it knows a creature that is hidden if it is NOT invisible. Since it doesn't really have wording. I would just use common sense. Yes.
Your position was you automatically know the location of invisible creature so long as they haven't hid. ight? Well then how do you explain this ability?? That is exactly what this ability lets them do: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you"
Your whole argument, again, is that this is default and automatic for everyone always. Yet, here we are with an 18th level ability granting this functionality. How can you still try to justify your position?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Why, exactly, is a different room relevant? Where does it mention anything about different rooms in the rules or in any sage advice or even tweet?
Invisibility would be different because it is absolute to the extent you are unseen. You are unseen, period.
Different room might or might not be relevant. Things in a different room could be heard. or not for exemple. But generally speaking, in a room based environement, its typical to see encounters occur room by room. DMs don't generally put all the monsters on a dungeon map because the other rooms haven't yet been explored by your senses.
Being unseen wether heavily obscured, Invisible or blind is absolute to the extent you are unseen. Invisible is no different. If you can't be seen, you can't be seen, wether you're invisible, in opaque fog, darkness or in front of a blinded person, you cannot be seen period.
A DM could rule that when it's impossible to be seen and heard by extraordinary means such as magic it may be undetected. Such exceptional circumstances to me wouldn't be the norm but the exception. Under normal circumstances, you can target a creature you can hear but not see with no second guessing. And one way to be unheard of is to take the Hide action. No one said a DM couldn't decide to grant it in other circumstances.
See you are going with all sorts of arbitrary rules here that are not consistent with your position on RAW. To me, the biggest issue is that you are placing nothing between "location is automatically known" and "impossible to be seen and heard."
Why cannot, simply by circumstances, it be less than automatic positive or negative location detection? Why nothing in between, i.e. the conventional skill vs skill, stealth skill vs perception? Or even Perception vs some DC set based on circumstances?
It can be, it just isn't RAW. How you think things should be because your mind sees things happening a certain way vs how the rules allow you to do things is not a conversation on RAW interpretation, it's a conversation on how RAW does not allow you to do things the way you see them.
In my argument for a different interpretation of the RAW for heavily obscured definition, it is large based on reading comprehension. The people that say you are blinded looking out of a heavily obscured area, are reading the definition incorrectly. Because there is no ruling by J Crawford himself on this, there is room for argument. Also, running scenarios with both rules sets, seeing which one is more effective when involving Heavy obscurity lends itself to the argument. But your just saying, regardless of what something says, because you don't see it that way, it can't be. Even the all the rules here are clear in this sense.
When a creature becomes unseen by becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically known"?
Why, exactly, is a different room relevant? Where does it mention anything about different rooms in the rules or in any sage advice or even tweet?
Invisibility would be different because it is absolute to the extent you are unseen. You are unseen, period.
Different room might or might not be relevant. Things in a different room could be heard. or not for exemple. But generally speaking, in a room based environement, its typical to see encounters occur room by room. DMs don't generally put all the monsters on a dungeon map because the other rooms haven't yet been explored by your senses.
Being unseen wether heavily obscured, Invisible or blind is absolute to the extent you are unseen. Invisible is no different. If you can't be seen, you can't be seen, wether you're invisible, in opaque fog, darkness or in front of a blinded person, you cannot be seen period.
A DM could rule that when it's impossible to be seen and heard by extraordinary means such as magic it may be undetected. Such exceptional circumstances to me wouldn't be the norm but the exception. Under normal circumstances, you can target a creature you can hear but not see with no second guessing. And one way to be unheard of is to take the Hide action. No one said a DM couldn't decide to grant it in other circumstances.
See you are going with all sorts of arbitrary rules here that are not consistent with your position on RAW. To me, the biggest issue is that you are placing nothing between "location is automatically known" and "impossible to be seen and heard."
Why cannot, simply by circumstances, it be less than automatic positive or negative location detection? Why nothing in between, i.e. the conventional skill vs skill, stealth skill vs perception? Or even Perception vs some DC set based on circumstances?
It can be, it just isn't RAW. How you think things should be because your mind sees things happening a certain way vs how the rules allow you to do things is not a conversation on RAW interpretation, it's a conversation on how RAW does not allow you to do things the way you see them.
In my argument for a different interpretation of the RAW for heavily obscured definition, it is large based on reading comprehension. The people that say you are blinded looking out of a heavily obscured area, are reading the definition incorrectly. Because there is no ruling by J Crawford himself on this, there is room for argument. Also, running scenarios with both rules sets, seeing which one is more effective when involving Heavy obscurity lends itself to the argument. But your just saying, regardless of what something says, because you don't see it that way, it can't be. Even the all the rules here are clear in this sense.
When a creature becomes unseen by becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically known"?
It depends on the situation. If he goes invisible while in combat . Yes (unless the DM feels there is an element at play that allows him to go invisible while no one noticing him). As per the rules. If he attacks during combat. Yes. As per the rules. If he goes invisible while in another room? No, his location was never automatically known. If he attempts to walk into the room you're in without taking the hide action first, he will make himself enough heard to reveal his location. "WTF? Is there a thing standing walking there that just opened that door? Yup, Who are you?" If he takes the hide action before entering the room and successfully beats everyone in the room he is entering's passive perception? No. Nobody knows he is there. If the PC goes invisible and the room it is in is silenced completely by magic, he is automatically hidden, as per the rules. (Unseen and Unheard). And there area host of scenarios that alter the rules based on things like spell descriptions, etc.
You assume that “not doing anything to make noise” is easy. You are incorrect. It is a skill.
You must live in a very noisy reality, where every rock, every pebble, ever twig, every inanimate object in existence is screaming, the roiling cacophony of your world must be absolutely dreadful if only actively stealthing by animated, trained "skilled" creatures allows something to be silent.
In my world, reality, and in my d&d games, noise is generated by a physical motion resulting in vibration through the air.
I cannot imagine the headache you must have when even the earmuffs you try to use to drown out the noise are screaming at you loudly. I'd go insane in such a world as you describe.
That skill has an ability attached to it. That is dexterity. A rogue with a 20 dexterity is much better at staying motionless than a fighter with heavy metal, clanky armor and a 10 dexterity. If the person is silenced or you can show to the DM that it is impossible for you to make noise, or reveal your self anyway with some combination of spells, she or he or they are well within their right to grant you hidden status without a stealth roll. No one is arguing this. Your missing context.
I'm not missing anything. I just don't agree with you that every person, every object in existence is by default making hella noise rofl. You make noise by doingsomething that would result in making noise... you don't make noise when not doing things. It's kinda obvious, really.
It's not obvious. No one is saying "hella noise". Just enough noise that you are no longer hidden. No one is saying you can't be quiet. No one is saying you are going to automatically fail. Only that if you aren't very good at it, and someone else is very good at listening, then you have a higher chance to fail. That is why you roll for it via the hide action. To compare skills. They are only saying you must roll for it and there is a chance for error, as with all things. No one is saying every object. We are talking about creatures. No one is saying there are things that can improve your chances, such as boots of elven kind, which gives you advantage on your roll to hide in this scenario. You are again missing the point that being completely still is not so easy. Especially in combat. It will be easier for the stealthy rogue than the clumsy fighter. This is why rolls exist. And if you don't like it? That's ok. You don't have to like the rules. You can change them to your liking. No one is stoping you.
It isn't the rules though. You've gotta understand that by now, right. You're on a crusade to convince a bunch of people that a rule exists that you can't provide but are determined with sheer force of will to prove is true anyway despite all evidence to the contrary. My man, it is okay if you were wrong and needed it explained to you, just take a moment, reevaluate, take in this new information, and adjust your understanding. It ain't the end of the world.
There are features that grant the ability to detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. That is proof positive 100% undeniable evidence your position is incorrect.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You assume that “not doing anything to make noise” is easy. You are incorrect. It is a skill.
You must live in a very noisy reality, where every rock, every pebble, ever twig, every inanimate object in existence is screaming, the roiling cacophony of your world must be absolutely dreadful if only actively stealthing by animated, trained "skilled" creatures allows something to be silent.
In my world, reality, and in my d&d games, noise is generated by a physical motion resulting in vibration through the air.
I cannot imagine the headache you must have when even the earmuffs you try to use to drown out the noise are screaming at you loudly. I'd go insane in such a world as you describe.
You assume that you are a rock. You are not. You are a person. As such, you have margin for error. That error is based on disciple and training. A scout sniper has to crawl through 1000 yards of open field without being seen or heard. It takes more than good camo. It takes a massive level of discipline to move slowly across that field. It could take days. Your ability scores dictate how good you are at something, not how good you think you are at something. Also, your opponents ability scores dictate how good they are at something. You measure how good you are at something versus how good your opponent is at something. My rogue with a 20 wisdom has a perception that is almost inhuman. The average person can not hide from me very easily. My senses (perception) is too high. It doesn't matter that you are not moving. I can hear you breathing. I can hear your heart beat. Or. Maybe it isn't so high. But Your stealth skill is low when trying to hide. So you think you are being super quiet, but then you sniffle. You aren't aware you did it or where going to do it. Why? Because you are just not good at it. Low Dex. Do what you want in your world. But you aren't playing RAW. That's cool, again. No one is making you. This is just an explanation of the rules.
When a creature becomes unseen by becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically known"?
It's the contrary. The creature's location is already known when becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically not known"?
All things start as unknown. That is the default position for everything. You learn things. That is the process of taking them from unknown to known. This is fundamentally true across the board regarding everything in existence.
You start off not-knowing, and then by gaining some sensory information you learn, experience, and come to know things.
By default, everything is unknown until this happens. This is a universal truth. And... It is a weird question to ask.
The invisible condition says it's location can be detected by any noise it makes or track it leaves. Not because we can't see someone anymore that we can't hear it. If being unheard was effortless everyone would easily do so, no one in the darkness would need to take the Hide action!
Doing something loud would reveal your position, yes. But you'd need to...you know, do something loud. Just existing, by itself, itself isn't "doing something loud".
Creatures in the dark, unseen, would do well to hide if they don't want their presence to be detected. Not their location, their presence.
Think of it like this: You're standing on the city street, lit by torchlight in the dead of night. The streets are mostly empty and there is a quiet stillness in the nighttime air. You pass by a dark ally.
If an unseen person was in this alley just walking around. You detect their presence: "Someone is down this dark passageway, you can feel it, small sounds, is that maybe footsteps... echoing. Is that a cat? A person? The darkness conceals them, whoever it be."
If an unseen person is hiding well in this alley, you wouldn't detect their presence: "The empty passageway disappears into the darkness at the edges of the light."
If the unseen person is being hella loud and lets say, yelling at you then you know exactly where they are: "Their comes a loud voice from the darkness some 20ft away ordering you to give him your wallet, the figure remains unseen in the darkness of the passageway".
Being unseen is not a free way to automatically become unheard and hide, it's instead a requirement to try to attempt to hide. You must not be clearly seen to attemp to hide and become unseen and unheard.
Unheard is the default unless you do something that is creating noise.
You can't hear my lack-of-words. You can't hear my lack-of-singing. You can't hear my lack-of-banging-my-hammer-on-my-shield. You can't hear my lack-of-knocking-over-a-vase.
You can't hear someone unless they do something that can be heard.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You assume that “not doing anything to make noise” is easy. You are incorrect. It is a skill.
You must live in a very noisy reality, where every rock, every pebble, ever twig, every inanimate object in existence is screaming, the roiling cacophony of your world must be absolutely dreadful if only actively stealthing by animated, trained "skilled" creatures allows something to be silent.
In my world, reality, and in my d&d games, noise is generated by a physical motion resulting in vibration through the air.
I cannot imagine the headache you must have when even the earmuffs you try to use to drown out the noise are screaming at you loudly. I'd go insane in such a world as you describe.
You assume that you are a rock. You are not. You are a person. As such, you have margin for error. That error is based on disciple and training. A scout sniper has to crawl through 1000 yards of open field without being seen or heard. It takes more than good camo. It takes a massive level of discipline to move slowly across that field. It could take days. Your ability scores dictate how good you are at something, not how good you think you are at something. Also, your opponents ability scores dictate how good they are at something. You measure how good you are at something versus how good your opponent is at something. My rogue with a 20 wisdom has a perception that is almost inhuman.
Your rogue can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. This is true for once. But they can do it because of their 14th level class feature that allows them to. Not because it is a default ability for everyone.
The average person can not hide from me very easily. My senses (perception) is too high. It doesn't matter that you are not moving. I can hear you breathing. I can hear your heart beat. Or. Maybe it isn't so high. But Your stealth skill is low when trying to hide. So you think you are being super quiet, but then you sniffle. You aren't aware you did it or where going to do it. Why? Because you are just not good at it. Low Dex. Do what you want in your world. But you aren't playing RAW. That's cool, again. No one is making you. This is just an explanation of the rules.
Explains the class features that grant the ability to detect invisible but not hiding enemies if it is a default for all characters always. Please go ahead.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
At 18th level, you gain preternatural senses that help you fight creatures you can’t see. When you attack a creature you can’t see, your inability to see it doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
In the real world awareness of locations is much more to do with factors such as whether gravel has been compacted or if it's loose, whether floorboards have been screwed down or nailed and maybe creeky, whether underfoot foliage is long and dry or short and subtle.
Given a nice quiet floor, you can often walk behind someone who's occupied in doing some moderately noise-making activity without 'trouble'. In fact, the only trouble you might get in is if you don't deliberately announce your arrival when walking up behind someone.
Rationale01 I honestly don't get the circumstances in which you think an invisible creature's location should be known or not.
1) If it is hidden, you do not know the location of the creature.
2) If it is not hidden, then you do (see rule 9 for when this does not apply).
3) To be hidden is to be both unseen and unheard.
4) When you are invisible, you are only unseen.
5) To be unheard requires you to actively attempt it. It is an action. For a rogue, it is a bonus action (cunning action).
6) An invisible creature can always attempt to hide. So it can always try to be silent. This is the hide action and involves a stealth role.
7) If an invisible creature that is also hidden attacks, it reveals its location, therefore it is no longer hidden, it is now only unseen. To become hidden again, see rules 5 and 6
8) magic can facility the rules. Magical silence, etc. The spells or items description will give you an idea of how it will help. Boots of elven kind quiet your foot steps, so you always walk silently, but it does not silence your armor. So it is does not grant automatic unheard status. You roll for stealth at advantage. If you are wearing armor that gives you disadvantage on stealth, advantage and disadvantage cancel out. You roll regular. This also lets you know that being unheard involves more than just moving silently.
9) if the person who is invisible is not in your area of perception, you do not know it's location (another room, cavern, floor, etc.)
Hope that helps. When running scenarios, use this as a guide line.
You assume that “not doing anything to make noise” is easy. You are incorrect. It is a skill.
You must live in a very noisy reality, where every rock, every pebble, ever twig, every inanimate object in existence is screaming, the roiling cacophony of your world must be absolutely dreadful if only actively stealthing by animated, trained "skilled" creatures allows something to be silent.
In my world, reality, and in my d&d games, noise is generated by a physical motion resulting in vibration through the air.
I cannot imagine the headache you must have when even the earmuffs you try to use to drown out the noise are screaming at you loudly. I'd go insane in such a world as you describe.
You assume that you are a rock. You are not. You are a person. As such, you have margin for error. That error is based on disciple and training. A scout sniper has to crawl through 1000 yards of open field without being seen or heard. It takes more than good camo. It takes a massive level of discipline to move slowly across that field. It could take days. Your ability scores dictate how good you are at something, not how good you think you are at something. Also, your opponents ability scores dictate how good they are at something. You measure how good you are at something versus how good your opponent is at something. My rogue with a 20 wisdom has a perception that is almost inhuman.
Your rogue can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. This is true for once. But they can do it because of their 14th level class feature that allows them to. Not because it is a default ability for everyone.
Anyone can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. It is automatic if they are in your area of perception. If the creature is invisible and hidden, then only those that pass their perception check can know the creatures location.
When a creature becomes unseen by becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically known"?
It's the contrary. The creature's location is already known when becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically not known"?
All things start as unknown. That is the default position for everything. You learn things. That is the process of taking them from unknown to known. This is fundamentally true across the board regarding everything in existence.
You start off not-knowing, and then by gaining some sensory information you learn, experience, and come to know things.
By default, everything is unknown until this happens. This is a universal truth. And... It is a weird question to ask.
Being unseen is not a free way to automatically become unheard and hide, it's instead a requirement to try to attempt to hide. You must not be clearly seen to attemp to hide and become unseen and unheard.
Unheard is the default unless you do something that is creating noise.
You can't hear my lack-of-words. You can't hear my lack-of-singing. You can't hear my lack-of-banging-my-hammer-on-my-shield. You can't hear my lack-of-knocking-over-a-vase.
You can't hear someone unless they do something that can be heard.
This is simply not true. You perceive things that are there unless they can't be perceived. You know where the creature going invisible is. It can be detected by the noise it makes and tracks it leave.
If unheard was effortless, simply unseen would suffice but we know it's not the case due to Hiding rules.
If you only did noise when doing something on your turn, than simply standing in the darkness would make you hidden. Hiding require an action, it's not effortless.
Essentially, you're incorrectly claiming that unseen = hidden unless you do noise.
I have never said otherwise, though. Others, including you, have been arguing that no, their location is automatically and constantly known until and unless they use a Hide action and successfully hide.
The Devs are saying it. In Dragon Talk, on Twitter. Hiding is the by the book to conceal your location. Not invisible, not unseen. Hiding.
Why, exactly, is a different room relevant? Where does it mention anything about different rooms in the rules or in any sage advice or even tweet?
Invisibility would be different because it is absolute to the extent you are unseen. You are unseen, period.
Different room might or might not be relevant. Things in a different room could be heard. or not for exemple. But generally speaking, in a room based environement, its typical to see encounters occur room by room. DMs don't generally put all the monsters on a dungeon map because the other rooms haven't yet been explored by your senses.
Being unseen wether heavily obscured, Invisible or blind is absolute to the extent you are unseen. Invisible is no different. If you can't be seen, you can't be seen, wether you're invisible, in opaque fog, darkness or in front of a blinded person, you cannot be seen period.
A DM could rule that when it's impossible to be seen and heard by extraordinary means such as magic it may be undetected. Such exceptional circumstances to me wouldn't be the norm but the exception. Under normal circumstances, you can target a creature you can hear but not see with no second guessing. And one way to be unheard of is to take the Hide action. No one said a DM couldn't decide to grant it in other circumstances.
See you are going with all sorts of arbitrary rules here that are not consistent with your position on RAW. To me, the biggest issue is that you are placing nothing between "location is automatically known" and "impossible to be seen and heard."
Why cannot, simply by circumstances, it be less than automatic positive or negative location detection? Why nothing in between, i.e. the conventional skill vs skill, stealth skill vs perception? Or even Perception vs some DC set based on circumstances?
It can be, it just isn't RAW. How you think things should be because your mind sees things happening a certain way vs how the rules allow you to do things is not a conversation on RAW interpretation, it's a conversation on how RAW does not allow you to do things the way you see them.
In my argument for a different interpretation of the RAW for heavily obscured definition, it is large based on reading comprehension. The people that say you are blinded looking out of a heavily obscured area, are reading the definition incorrectly. Because there is no ruling by J Crawford himself on this, there is room for argument. Also, running scenarios with both rules sets, seeing which one is more effective when involving Heavy obscurity lends itself to the argument. But your just saying, regardless of what something says, because you don't see it that way, it can't be. Even the all the rules here are clear in this sense.
When a creature becomes unseen by becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically known"?
Because it is not unheard, therefore it does not have the hidden status. Your location is revealed when you do not have the hidden status and vice verse, when you have the hidden status, your location is not revealed. IF it is invisible, but is not actively attempting to be unheard, and it is within the area of perception of a PC, the PC can hear it well enough to know where it is. If you think that because the unseen, invisible creature is not doing anything, is not moving, that it should not be known, actually what you are saying is the creature is attempting to be still. That requires a role to hide to see if he is good enough to stay so silent he does not reveal himself. As per raw.
This is all within the context of being near enough to each other to be revealed as a possibility.
When a creature becomes unseen by becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically known"?
It's the contrary. The creature's location is already known when becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically not known"?
All things start as unknown. That is the default position for everything. You learn things. That is the process of taking them from unknown to known. This is fundamentally true across the board regarding everything in existence.
You start off not-knowing, and then by gaining some sensory information you learn, experience, and come to know things.
By default, everything is unknown until this happens. This is a universal truth. And... It is a weird question to ask.
Being unseen is not a free way to automatically become unheard and hide, it's instead a requirement to try to attempt to hide. You must not be clearly seen to attemp to hide and become unseen and unheard.
Unheard is the default unless you do something that is creating noise.
You can't hear my lack-of-words. You can't hear my lack-of-singing. You can't hear my lack-of-banging-my-hammer-on-my-shield. You can't hear my lack-of-knocking-over-a-vase.
You can't hear someone unless they do something that can be heard.
This is simply not true. You perceive things that are there unless they can't be perceived. You know where the creature going invisible is. It can be detected by the noise it makes and tracks it leave.
If unheard was effortless, simply unseen would suffice but we know it's not the case due to Hiding rules.
If you only did noise when doing something on your turn, than simply standing in the darkness would make you hidden. Hiding require an action, it's not effortless.
Essentially, you're incorrectly claiming that unseen = hidden unless you do noise.
Yea that is definitely not true. Being silent is a skill. If it you weren't, you would all be ninjas. You aren't. Everyone would be a rogue, They aren't. Trying to not do something is try to do something. You are TRYING to be silent. There is a MARGIN FOR ERROR. Ability rolls manage this. Also, as I said before, your ability to stay quiet has to be measured against someone else perception, which can be higher than your ability. Super hearing will trump weak hiding skills. Hence rolling against perception.
You assume that “not doing anything to make noise” is easy. You are incorrect. It is a skill.
You must live in a very noisy reality, where every rock, every pebble, ever twig, every inanimate object in existence is screaming, the roiling cacophony of your world must be absolutely dreadful if only actively stealthing by animated, trained "skilled" creatures allows something to be silent.
In my world, reality, and in my d&d games, noise is generated by a physical motion resulting in vibration through the air.
I cannot imagine the headache you must have when even the earmuffs you try to use to drown out the noise are screaming at you loudly. I'd go insane in such a world as you describe.
You assume that you are a rock. You are not. You are a person. As such, you have margin for error. That error is based on disciple and training. A scout sniper has to crawl through 1000 yards of open field without being seen or heard. It takes more than good camo. It takes a massive level of discipline to move slowly across that field. It could take days. Your ability scores dictate how good you are at something, not how good you think you are at something. Also, your opponents ability scores dictate how good they are at something. You measure how good you are at something versus how good your opponent is at something. My rogue with a 20 wisdom has a perception that is almost inhuman.
Your rogue can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. This is true for once. But they can do it because of their 14th level class feature that allows them to. Not because it is a default ability for everyone.
Anyone can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. It is automatic if they are in your area of perception. If the creature is invisible and hidden, then only those that pass their perception check can know the creatures location.
Interesting.
Explain this ability:
Feral Senses
At 18th level, you gain preternatural senses that help you fight creatures you can’t see. When you attack a creature you can’t see, your inability to see it doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I have never said otherwise, though. Others, including you, have been arguing that no, their location is automatically and constantly known until and unless they use a Hide action and successfully hide.
The Devs are saying it. In Dragon Talk, on Twitter. Hiding is the by the book to conceal your location. Not invisible, not unseen. Hiding.
This should be acknowledged by all.
So the 14th level rogue Blindsense and the 18th level Ranger Feral Senses that are to detect invisible but not-hidden creatures...is...redundant? Because even commoners can do it without trying? Sure that makes a TON of sense /s
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This argument was over at: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden".
IDK why anyone would bother arguing otherwise at this point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
When a creature becomes unseen by becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically known"?
It's the contrary. The creature's location is already known when becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically not known"?
All things start as unknown. That is the default position for everything. You learn things. That is the process of taking them from unknown to known. This is fundamentally true across the board regarding everything in existence.
You start off not-knowing, and then by gaining some sensory information you learn, experience, and come to know things.
By default, everything is unknown until this happens. This is a universal truth. And... It is a weird question to ask.
Being unseen is not a free way to automatically become unheard and hide, it's instead a requirement to try to attempt to hide. You must not be clearly seen to attemp to hide and become unseen and unheard.
Unheard is the default unless you do something that is creating noise.
You can't hear my lack-of-words. You can't hear my lack-of-singing. You can't hear my lack-of-banging-my-hammer-on-my-shield. You can't hear my lack-of-knocking-over-a-vase.
You can't hear someone unless they do something that can be heard.
This is simply not true. You perceive things that are there unless they can't be perceived. You know where the creature going invisible is. It can be detected by the noise it makes and tracks it leave.
If unheard was effortless, simply unseen would suffice but we know it's not the case due to Hiding rules.
If you only did noise when doing something on your turn, than simply standing in the darkness would make you hidden. Hiding require an action, it's not effortless.
Essentially, you're incorrectly claiming that unseen = hidden unless you do noise.
Yea that is definitely not true. Being silent is a skill. If it you weren't, you would all be ninjas. You aren't. Everyone would be a rogue, They aren't. Trying to not do something is try to do something. You are TRYING to be silent. There is a MARGIN FOR ERROR. Ability rolls manage this. Also, as I said before, your ability to stay quiet has to be measured against someone else perception, which can be higher than your ability. Super hearing will trump weak hiding skills. Hence rolling against perception.
Being silent, if we're being picky, is only achieved in death.
I've often walked up to someone, not trying to do anything in particular, and not been heard even though the surroundings have been quiet.
Approaching someone in combat would be easier still.
Walking at a distance of someone in combat, again easier.
Silence has nothing to do with it. You just need to be making sufficiently little noise for a potentially occupied creature not to hear.
The DM adjudicates any rolls deemed necessary depending on the situation.
It's known to many as controversal game features, no general rules though. Feral Senses most of the the main D&D forums had discussion about it.
Such character may detect the location of an hidden or invisible flying creature in a Silence spell for exemple. ☺
Your argument is that a commoner automatically detects an invisible creature in a silence spell though.
So what exactly does Feral senses give you when it says: You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden.
If you automatically detect the location of invisible creatures, like you claim.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Read it again. There is a "or" there. Not an "and". hidden -or- invisible. That means you read it like this:
The existence of this ability is proof that you don't automatically know the location of invisible creatures. This ability is granting you that capability and only if they're within 10ft. Clearly, if everyone just always automatically knows the location of invisible creature you wouldn't need a high level rogue feature to grant that ability.
Your position was you automatically know the location of invisible creature so long as they haven't hid. ight? Well then how do you explain this ability?? That is exactly what this ability lets them do: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you"
Your whole argument, again, is that this is default and automatic for everyone always. Yet, here we are with an 18th level ability granting this functionality. How can you still try to justify your position?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It depends on the situation. If he goes invisible while in combat . Yes (unless the DM feels there is an element at play that allows him to go invisible while no one noticing him). As per the rules. If he attacks during combat. Yes. As per the rules. If he goes invisible while in another room? No, his location was never automatically known. If he attempts to walk into the room you're in without taking the hide action first, he will make himself enough heard to reveal his location. "WTF? Is there a thing standing walking there that just opened that door? Yup, Who are you?" If he takes the hide action before entering the room and successfully beats everyone in the room he is entering's passive perception? No. Nobody knows he is there. If the PC goes invisible and the room it is in is silenced completely by magic, he is automatically hidden, as per the rules. (Unseen and Unheard). And there area host of scenarios that alter the rules based on things like spell descriptions, etc.
It isn't the rules though. You've gotta understand that by now, right. You're on a crusade to convince a bunch of people that a rule exists that you can't provide but are determined with sheer force of will to prove is true anyway despite all evidence to the contrary. My man, it is okay if you were wrong and needed it explained to you, just take a moment, reevaluate, take in this new information, and adjust your understanding. It ain't the end of the world.
There are features that grant the ability to detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. That is proof positive 100% undeniable evidence your position is incorrect.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You assume that you are a rock. You are not. You are a person. As such, you have margin for error. That error is based on disciple and training. A scout sniper has to crawl through 1000 yards of open field without being seen or heard. It takes more than good camo. It takes a massive level of discipline to move slowly across that field. It could take days. Your ability scores dictate how good you are at something, not how good you think you are at something. Also, your opponents ability scores dictate how good they are at something. You measure how good you are at something versus how good your opponent is at something. My rogue with a 20 wisdom has a perception that is almost inhuman. The average person can not hide from me very easily. My senses (perception) is too high. It doesn't matter that you are not moving. I can hear you breathing. I can hear your heart beat. Or. Maybe it isn't so high. But Your stealth skill is low when trying to hide. So you think you are being super quiet, but then you sniffle. You aren't aware you did it or where going to do it. Why? Because you are just not good at it. Low Dex. Do what you want in your world. But you aren't playing RAW. That's cool, again. No one is making you. This is just an explanation of the rules.
All things start as unknown. That is the default position for everything. You learn things. That is the process of taking them from unknown to known. This is fundamentally true across the board regarding everything in existence.
You start off not-knowing, and then by gaining some sensory information you learn, experience, and come to know things.
By default, everything is unknown until this happens. This is a universal truth. And... It is a weird question to ask.
Doing something loud would reveal your position, yes. But you'd need to...you know, do something loud. Just existing, by itself, itself isn't "doing something loud".
Creatures in the dark, unseen, would do well to hide if they don't want their presence to be detected. Not their location, their presence.
Think of it like this: You're standing on the city street, lit by torchlight in the dead of night. The streets are mostly empty and there is a quiet stillness in the nighttime air. You pass by a dark ally.
Unheard is the default unless you do something that is creating noise.
You can't hear my lack-of-words. You can't hear my lack-of-singing. You can't hear my lack-of-banging-my-hammer-on-my-shield. You can't hear my lack-of-knocking-over-a-vase.
You can't hear someone unless they do something that can be heard.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Your rogue can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. This is true for once. But they can do it because of their 14th level class feature that allows them to. Not because it is a default ability for everyone.
Explains the class features that grant the ability to detect invisible but not hiding enemies if it is a default for all characters always. Please go ahead.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Feral Senses
At 18th level, you gain preternatural senses that help you fight creatures you can’t see. When you attack a creature you can’t see, your inability to see it doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
In the real world awareness of locations is much more to do with factors such as whether gravel has been compacted or if it's loose, whether floorboards have been screwed down or nailed and maybe creeky, whether underfoot foliage is long and dry or short and subtle.
Given a nice quiet floor, you can often walk behind someone who's occupied in doing some moderately noise-making activity without 'trouble'. In fact, the only trouble you might get in is if you don't deliberately announce your arrival when walking up behind someone.
1) If it is hidden, you do not know the location of the creature.
2) If it is not hidden, then you do (see rule 9 for when this does not apply).
3) To be hidden is to be both unseen and unheard.
4) When you are invisible, you are only unseen.
5) To be unheard requires you to actively attempt it. It is an action. For a rogue, it is a bonus action (cunning action).
6) An invisible creature can always attempt to hide. So it can always try to be silent. This is the hide action and involves a stealth role.
7) If an invisible creature that is also hidden attacks, it reveals its location, therefore it is no longer hidden, it is now only unseen. To become hidden again, see rules 5 and 6
8) magic can facility the rules. Magical silence, etc. The spells or items description will give you an idea of how it will help. Boots of elven kind quiet your foot steps, so you always walk silently, but it does not silence your armor. So it is does not grant automatic unheard status. You roll for stealth at advantage. If you are wearing armor that gives you disadvantage on stealth, advantage and disadvantage cancel out. You roll regular. This also lets you know that being unheard involves more than just moving silently.
9) if the person who is invisible is not in your area of perception, you do not know it's location (another room, cavern, floor, etc.)
Hope that helps. When running scenarios, use this as a guide line.
Anyone can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. It is automatic if they are in your area of perception. If the creature is invisible and hidden, then only those that pass their perception check can know the creatures location.
This is simply not true. You perceive things that are there unless they can't be perceived. You know where the creature going invisible is. It can be detected by the noise it makes and tracks it leave.
If unheard was effortless, simply unseen would suffice but we know it's not the case due to Hiding rules.
If you only did noise when doing something on your turn, than simply standing in the darkness would make you hidden. Hiding require an action, it's not effortless.
Essentially, you're incorrectly claiming that unseen = hidden unless you do noise.
The Devs are saying it. In Dragon Talk, on Twitter. Hiding is the by the book to conceal your location. Not invisible, not unseen. Hiding.
This should be acknowledged by all.
Because it is not unheard, therefore it does not have the hidden status. Your location is revealed when you do not have the hidden status and vice verse, when you have the hidden status, your location is not revealed. IF it is invisible, but is not actively attempting to be unheard, and it is within the area of perception of a PC, the PC can hear it well enough to know where it is. If you think that because the unseen, invisible creature is not doing anything, is not moving, that it should not be known, actually what you are saying is the creature is attempting to be still. That requires a role to hide to see if he is good enough to stay so silent he does not reveal himself. As per raw.
This is all within the context of being near enough to each other to be revealed as a possibility.
Yea that is definitely not true. Being silent is a skill. If it you weren't, you would all be ninjas. You aren't. Everyone would be a rogue, They aren't. Trying to not do something is try to do something. You are TRYING to be silent. There is a MARGIN FOR ERROR. Ability rolls manage this. Also, as I said before, your ability to stay quiet has to be measured against someone else perception, which can be higher than your ability. Super hearing will trump weak hiding skills. Hence rolling against perception.
Interesting.
Explain this ability:
Feral Senses
At 18th level, you gain preternatural senses that help you fight creatures you can’t see. When you attack a creature you can’t see, your inability to see it doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So the 14th level rogue Blindsense and the 18th level Ranger Feral Senses that are to detect invisible but not-hidden creatures...is...redundant? Because even commoners can do it without trying? Sure that makes a TON of sense /s
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This argument was over at: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden".
IDK why anyone would bother arguing otherwise at this point.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Being silent, if we're being picky, is only achieved in death.
I've often walked up to someone, not trying to do anything in particular, and not been heard even though the surroundings have been quiet.
Approaching someone in combat would be easier still.
Walking at a distance of someone in combat, again easier.
Silence has nothing to do with it. You just need to be making sufficiently little noise for a potentially occupied creature not to hear.
The DM adjudicates any rolls deemed necessary depending on the situation.
It's known to many as controversal game features, no general rules though. Feral Senses most of the the main D&D forums had discussion about it.
Such character may detect the location of an hidden or invisible flying creature in a Silence spell for exemple. ☺
Your argument is that a commoner automatically detects an invisible creature in a silence spell though.
So what exactly does Feral senses give you when it says: You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden.
If you automatically detect the location of invisible creatures, like you claim.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.