i play a bard and I took the Ritual Caster (Wizard) feat. I bought a spell scroll, paid the gold necessary for supplies, and took the hours per level to copy the scroll into my spell book. However, one of the other players in my D&D group said I also have to make an Arcana check of 10 plus the spell level to successfully copy the scroll. Is he correct? It doesn't say anything about an Arcana check in the text of the feat.
The Ritual Caster feat behaves exactly as it is described. The spell just needs to be on the spell list of the class you chose and the spell's level needs to not be higher than half your character level rounded up.
I honestly have no idea where the other player gets the Arcana check from. The closest I could find is from the description for the Spell Scroll magic item. In that case if the spell on the scroll is higher level than you can normally cast you need to make an ability check using your spell casting modifier. In that case the DC is 10 plus the level of the spell.
You're right. In the feat it doesn't tell you that you have to do that. Your friend says that because the Wizard does have to make that roll when he copies a spell from a scroll:
"Copying from a Spell Scroll. A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When you copy a spell from a spell scroll, you must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed."
But in the feat it doesn't say anything like that. I sure would make you make that roll if I was your DM, but that's not RAW.
Scribing a spell does not require per se doing an Arcana check. In 5e, if you can scribe spells as a feature, e.g. by being a wizard, you can scribe in your spellbook, after learning (the cost of 50gp per spell level), a spell you have found written somewhere. Spells are written and shared in spell books, parchments, diaries, etc.
Effectively, you need to reverse engineer the magic item first, and use that knowledge to recreate the spell. (A spell scroll is a single page, it does not describe the spell, which by RAW requires spell level number of pages to do so.) That is what the Arcana check is for. That is RAW and RAI.
In general, as scrolls are super useful, I would advise against destroying them; try to create your own (scribe) spell scrolls instead if you can, and find some spell book to learn new spells or rituals (or ritual books I guess in your case).
You're right. In the feat it doesn't tell you that you have to do that. Your friend says that because the Wizard does have to make that roll when he copies a spell from a scroll:
"Copying from a Spell Scroll. A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When you copy a spell from a spell scroll, you must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed."
But in the feat it doesn't say anything like that. I sure would make you make that roll if I was your DM, but that's not RAW.
This can be a bit misleading. Wizards only need to do this check when copying from a Spell Scroll. They don't need to do this check when copying from a regular scroll. The PhB explicitly mentions "spells recorded on a scroll" and how to copy them (it doesn't involve a check).
The difference is a bit confusing:
Spells recorded on a scroll: A regular non-magical scroll where someone wrote down how to do the spell. The Wizard needs to read it, understand it, learn it, practice it, and then they can write it (in their own notation) in their spell book. Since they have all the time in the world to do that, no check is needed.
Spell Scrolls: A magical item that has the spell "baked in". The wizard can cast the spell once, and in that one casting they need to try to understand it sufficiently that they can reproduce it. Since this is a task that can't be repeated if failed, it needs a check.
You're right. In the feat it doesn't tell you that you have to do that. Your friend says that because the Wizard does have to make that roll when he copies a spell from a scroll:
"Copying from a Spell Scroll. A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When you copy a spell from a spell scroll, you must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed."
But in the feat it doesn't say anything like that. I sure would make you make that roll if I was your DM, but that's not RAW.
This can be a bit misleading. Wizards only need to do this check when copying from a Spell Scroll. They don't need to do this check when copying from a regular scroll. The PhB explicitly mentions "spells recorded on a scroll" and how to copy them (it doesn't involve a check).
The difference is a bit confusing:
Spells recorded on a scroll: A regular non-magical scroll where someone wrote down how to do the spell. The Wizard needs to read it, understand it, learn it, practice it, and then they can write it (in their own notation) in their spell book. Since they have all the time in the world to do that, no check is needed.
Spell Scrolls: A magical item that has the spell "baked in". The wizard can cast the spell once, and in that one casting they need to try to understand it sufficiently that they can reproduce it. Since this is a task that can't be repeated if failed, it needs a check.
That's true, but I think the OP was specifically asking about the Spell Scroll.
You're right. In the feat it doesn't tell you that you have to do that. Your friend says that because the Wizard does have to make that roll when he copies a spell from a scroll:
"Copying from a Spell Scroll. A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When you copy a spell from a spell scroll, you must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed."
But in the feat it doesn't say anything like that. I sure would make you make that roll if I was your DM, but that's not RAW.
This can be a bit misleading. Wizards only need to do this check when copying from a Spell Scroll. They don't need to do this check when copying from a regular scroll. The PhB explicitly mentions "spells recorded on a scroll" and how to copy them (it doesn't involve a check).
The difference is a bit confusing:
Spells recorded on a scroll: A regular non-magical scroll where someone wrote down how to do the spell. The Wizard needs to read it, understand it, learn it, practice it, and then they can write it (in their own notation) in their spell book. Since they have all the time in the world to do that, no check is needed.
Spell Scrolls: A magical item that has the spell "baked in". The wizard can cast the spell once, and in that one casting they need to try to understand it sufficiently that they can reproduce it. Since this is a task that can't be repeated if failed, it needs a check.
Well that is embarrassing. I missed the call for the Arcana check further down in the Spell Scroll's magic item description.
Interestingly it only requires an Arcana check when copying a Wizard spell. Ritual Caster lets you choose a casting class whose spell list you have access to. So you could pick up Ritual Caster(Druid) and copy a Spell Scroll containing Animal Messenger with no check required. In this example you have access to spells on the Druid spell list and Animal Messenger is not also on the Wizard spell list. More importantly though the Ritual Caster feat explicitly calls out how you can use this feat to copy spells from a magical Spell Scroll and does not require making the Arcana check typically required when a copying a Wizard spell into a spellbook.
Edit: Actually I am waffling on this last bit. The feat specifically calls out copying from a magical Spell Scroll but I am not sure if is intended to over-ride the Arcana check. But if it doesn't then the behavior of the feat changes based on if the spell you are copying happens to be on the Wizard spell list or not.
You're right. In the feat it doesn't tell you that you have to do that. Your friend says that because the Wizard does have to make that roll when he copies a spell from a scroll:
"Copying from a Spell Scroll. A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When you copy a spell from a spell scroll, you must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed."
But in the feat it doesn't say anything like that. I sure would make you make that roll if I was your DM, but that's not RAW.
This can be a bit misleading. Wizards only need to do this check when copying from a Spell Scroll. They don't need to do this check when copying from a regular scroll. The PhB explicitly mentions "spells recorded on a scroll" and how to copy them (it doesn't involve a check).
The difference is a bit confusing:
Spells recorded on a scroll: A regular non-magical scroll where someone wrote down how to do the spell. The Wizard needs to read it, understand it, learn it, practice it, and then they can write it (in their own notation) in their spell book. Since they have all the time in the world to do that, no check is needed.
Spell Scrolls: A magical item that has the spell "baked in". The wizard can cast the spell once, and in that one casting they need to try to understand it sufficiently that they can reproduce it. Since this is a task that can't be repeated if failed, it needs a check.
Well that is embarrassing. I missed the call for the Arcana check further down in the Spell Scroll's magic item description.
Interestingly it only requires an Arcana check when copying a Wizard spell. Ritual Caster lets you choose a casting class whose spell list you have access to. So you could pick up Ritual Caster(Druid) and copy a Spell Scroll containing Animal Messenger with no check required. In this example you have access to spells on the Druid spell list and Animal Messenger is not also on the Wizard spell list. More importantly though the Ritual Caster feat explicitly calls out how you can use this feat to copy spells from a magical Spell Scroll and does not require making the Arcana check typically required when a copying a Wizard spell into a spellbook.
Edit: Actually I am waffling on this last bit. The feat specifically calls out copying from a magical Spell Scroll but I am not sure if is intended to over-ride the Arcana check. But if it doesn't then the behavior of the feat changes based on if the spell you are copying happens to be on the Wizard spell list or not.
No you still need to make the Arcana check for copying from a spell scroll only. The class being wizard or not does not matter. But I guess ritual books of Druids are not really a normal treasure, so discuss with your DM to consider for it appropriately.
If you come across a spell in written form, such as a magical spell scroll or a wizard's spellbook, you might be able to add it to your ritual book. The spell must be on the spell list for the class you chose, the spell's level can be no higher than half your level (rounded up), and it must have the ritual tag. The process of copying the spell into your ritual book takes 2 hours per level of the spell, and costs 50 gp per level. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it.“
It provides spell scroll or spellbooks as possible example sources. It does not override magical spell scroll property for copying a spell from it nor does it require the Arcana check. See previous comments and explanation.
From the Spell Scroll description: "A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed"
Considering the sentences in isolation the first sentence states that wizard spells can be copied from a spell scroll. While not explicitly stated this implies that only wizard spells can be copied from spell scrolls.
The second sentence tells us that any time a spell is copied from a spell scroll you must make an Arcana check. I had assumed from the first sentence that this check was restricted to wizard spells, but taken in isolation it applies to all spells.
It may be that spell scroll was written with the faulty assumption that only wizards would have a spellbook. Even the ritual caster feat itself says ". . . wizard's spellbook . . ." even though literally anyone with a high enough int or wis score could take the ritual caster feat and choose any of the casting class spell lists. There is also Pact of the Tome warlocks with the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation as another means of a non-wizard gaining a spellbook that spells can be scribed into and this is all just from the PHB.
I feel that Spell Scroll would have been better worded if they either removed the sentence "A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied." or reworded it to be "A spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied."
The first sentence: "A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied." indicates it can be copied by someone that can copy wizard spells. They should have amended it to mention ritual casters and other cases. Normally, and in the past editions if memory serves me right, copying down spells was a "wizard-only" trait and curse/path.
The remaining of the paragraph after the introductory sentence:
When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed.
The description is pretty clear. It is by exception that ritual casters of other classes can copy ritual spells from scrolls. It could have been done much better, as we are talking about an exception to an exception rule here.
My 2c: Do NOT copy spells from spell scrolls (except maybe level 1 or 2 if you are desperate): You are destroying a pretty valuable magic item in the process, and maybe you will succeed. If you can convince someone to part/trade a spell scroll that they spend a lot of time and material constructing, you can convince them to give you access to a written down form of the same spell (tell them you will make a scroll for them for instance or exchange spells etc). Instead accumulate and create scrolls. They are invaluable.
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i play a bard and I took the Ritual Caster (Wizard) feat. I bought a spell scroll, paid the gold necessary for supplies, and took the hours per level to copy the scroll into my spell book. However, one of the other players in my D&D group said I also have to make an Arcana check of 10 plus the spell level to successfully copy the scroll. Is he correct? It doesn't say anything about an Arcana check in the text of the feat.
The Ritual Caster feat behaves exactly as it is described. The spell just needs to be on the spell list of the class you chose and the spell's level needs to not be higher than half your character level rounded up.
I honestly have no idea where the other player gets the Arcana check from. The closest I could find is from the description for the Spell Scroll magic item. In that case if the spell on the scroll is higher level than you can normally cast you need to make an ability check using your spell casting modifier. In that case the DC is 10 plus the level of the spell.
Thank you!
You're right. In the feat it doesn't tell you that you have to do that.
Your friend says that because the Wizard does have to make that roll when he copies a spell from a scroll:
"Copying from a Spell Scroll. A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When you copy a spell from a spell scroll, you must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed."
But in the feat it doesn't say anything like that. I sure would make you make that roll if I was your DM, but that's not RAW.
Scribing a spell does not require per se doing an Arcana check. In 5e, if you can scribe spells as a feature, e.g. by being a wizard, you can scribe in your spellbook, after learning (the cost of 50gp per spell level), a spell you have found written somewhere. Spells are written and shared in spell books, parchments, diaries, etc.
Scribing from a spell scroll, is a different endeavor. Spell scrolls are magical items. They allow you to cast a spell with no components and no energy expenditure -- they hold the spell casting and you simply unleash it in the world. You do not even use your spell casting ability to cast the spell. See https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/spell-scroll and https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/xgte/downtime-revisited#ScribingaSpellScroll.
Effectively, you need to reverse engineer the magic item first, and use that knowledge to recreate the spell. (A spell scroll is a single page, it does not describe the spell, which by RAW requires spell level number of pages to do so.) That is what the Arcana check is for. That is RAW and RAI.
In general, as scrolls are super useful, I would advise against destroying them; try to create your own (scribe) spell scrolls instead if you can, and find some spell book to learn new spells or rituals (or ritual books I guess in your case).
This can be a bit misleading. Wizards only need to do this check when copying from a Spell Scroll. They don't need to do this check when copying from a regular scroll. The PhB explicitly mentions "spells recorded on a scroll" and how to copy them (it doesn't involve a check).
The difference is a bit confusing:
That's true, but I think the OP was specifically asking about the Spell Scroll.
But yes, the distinction you make is important.
Well that is embarrassing. I missed the call for the Arcana check further down in the Spell Scroll's magic item description.
Interestingly it only requires an Arcana check when copying a Wizard spell. Ritual Caster lets you choose a casting class whose spell list you have access to. So you could pick up Ritual Caster(Druid) and copy a Spell Scroll containing Animal Messenger with no check required. In this example you have access to spells on the Druid spell list and Animal Messenger is not also on the Wizard spell list. More importantly though the Ritual Caster feat explicitly calls out how you can use this feat to copy spells from a magical Spell Scroll and does not require making the Arcana check typically required when a copying a Wizard spell into a spellbook.
Edit: Actually I am waffling on this last bit. The feat specifically calls out copying from a magical Spell Scroll but I am not sure if is intended to over-ride the Arcana check. But if it doesn't then the behavior of the feat changes based on if the spell you are copying happens to be on the Wizard spell list or not.
No you still need to make the Arcana check for copying from a spell scroll only. The class being wizard or not does not matter. But I guess ritual books of Druids are not really a normal treasure, so discuss with your DM to consider for it appropriately.
See the feat https://www.dndbeyond.com/feats/ritual-caster-wizard.
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It provides spell scroll or spellbooks as possible example sources. It does not override magical spell scroll property for copying a spell from it nor does it require the Arcana check. See previous comments and explanation.
From the Spell Scroll description: "A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed"
Considering the sentences in isolation the first sentence states that wizard spells can be copied from a spell scroll. While not explicitly stated this implies that only wizard spells can be copied from spell scrolls.
The second sentence tells us that any time a spell is copied from a spell scroll you must make an Arcana check. I had assumed from the first sentence that this check was restricted to wizard spells, but taken in isolation it applies to all spells.
It may be that spell scroll was written with the faulty assumption that only wizards would have a spellbook. Even the ritual caster feat itself says ". . . wizard's spellbook . . ." even though literally anyone with a high enough int or wis score could take the ritual caster feat and choose any of the casting class spell lists. There is also Pact of the Tome warlocks with the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation as another means of a non-wizard gaining a spellbook that spells can be scribed into and this is all just from the PHB.
I feel that Spell Scroll would have been better worded if they either removed the sentence "A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied." or reworded it to be "A spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied."
The first sentence: "A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied." indicates it can be copied by someone that can copy wizard spells. They should have amended it to mention ritual casters and other cases. Normally, and in the past editions if memory serves me right, copying down spells was a "wizard-only" trait and curse/path.
The remaining of the paragraph after the introductory sentence:
The description is pretty clear. It is by exception that ritual casters of other classes can copy ritual spells from scrolls. It could have been done much better, as we are talking about an exception to an exception rule here.
My 2c: Do NOT copy spells from spell scrolls (except maybe level 1 or 2 if you are desperate): You are destroying a pretty valuable magic item in the process, and maybe you will succeed. If you can convince someone to part/trade a spell scroll that they spend a lot of time and material constructing, you can convince them to give you access to a written down form of the same spell (tell them you will make a scroll for them for instance or exchange spells etc). Instead accumulate and create scrolls. They are invaluable.