As other have noted. Unless the player or creature takes the Hide action and outrolls the passive stealth, then they know roughly where the invisbile person/creature is. Attack rolls are at disadvantage, but you can still attack them. You are able to hear or otherwise perceive them as being in a certain area. And yes, no opportunity attacks on invisible creatures, unless you have blindsight, truesight, tremorsense, etc. something that allows you to "see" them.
So, here's the thing about invisibility... unless the invisible creature actually takes the Hide action, then the players are still aware of basically where the invisible creature is... at least enough to target them with attacks (at disadvantage). So in that case I would leave their mini on the board and just note them as invisible, and I would only remove the mini if the invisible creature successfully hides.
This is false. The Hide action is not the only way a creature can be unknown to you. You do not know the location of most creatures in existence, for example, regardless of if they are or are not taking the hide action. I've seen this answer posted around before but it isn't supported by the rules.
You do not know the location of the invisible creature so long as you haven't detected that creature's location. If it is being loud enough to hear still, you could know where it is. That'd be one way to detect it. But that isn't a safe assumption. This is why characters have perception scores.
The Hide action basically assumes that there is some form of cover... if there is nothing to hide behind, then the Hide Action is not available, no matter how well you roll. Turning Invisible gives a creature the option to Hide even in the middle of a wide open field. So if a creature chooses to take the Hide action while invisible in the middle of the room, the Hide action basically represents them putting additional effort into stepping lightly, avoiding disturbing dust, and otherwise taking deliberate action to keep their true location obscured beyond what the invisibility alone grants. So a Wizard with low DEX might turn invisible, then attempt to Hide and roll poorly, so they're still attempting to hide but accidentally leave too much evidence of the direction they're moving and their general location is still known.
I think one thing to keep in mind is that a creature occupies a 5 foot square... most creatures are not actually 5 feet wide, so they only physically fill a portion of the space they occupy. When a creature is Invisible but not actively Hiding, they produce enough sound or other signs of their presence for reasonably perceptive creatures to be able to identify the rough 5x5 area that they're within. They don't know exactly where the invisible creature is, but they know enough to make a reasonable guess at where they should aim their attacks.
Hiding doesn't assume cover.
It assumes some means, any means, of the enemy not having a clear line of sight to you or otherwise being unable to detect you clearly as determined by your DM. Cover can do that that, but it certainly isn't the only way. You can hide perfectly fine in darkness, fog, or heavy foliage. None of those are cover. You can hide while invisible and standing in the middle of a room, that's certainly not cover.
You don't even really need these, either, if the DM determines the target can't or won't see you for other reasons, too. You can potentially hide in the middle of a well lit unfurnished room if the guard walking through it is so engrossed in his book he'd only notice if you made noise.
The rules specifically call attention to this fact. You'll note when trying to determine if you can hide or not the rules don't say cover determines it, instead the rules says:
"The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding."
It is, in fact, the very first sentence on the matter. You can find it in Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores, it is the very last subject in dexterity section, right before Constitution.
Yeah, Dashing can be bit hard to parse logically... it seems like something that should break stealth, but by default it doesn't. I think the best way to think of it is, when you're in front of someone and actively hiding, you have to be more careful for those first few seconds as you obscure your location. Then once you're fully hidden you don't have to move quite as precisely, since your target is looking around wildly to find where you went, instead of staring right at you and keeping an eye out for signs of movement.
Sprinting through the middle of the battlefield can be called "coming out of hiding". I'm not sure where you got the notion that might not reveal you but, it probably would.
Again, Chapter 7: using Ability Scores, has this to say:
"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."
I'd suggest rereading this section.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
As other have noted. Unless the player or creature takes the Hide action and outrolls the passive stealth, then they know roughly where the invisbile person/creature is. Attack rolls are at disadvantage, but you can still attack them. You are able to hear or otherwise perceive them as being in a certain area. And yes, no opportunity attacks on invisible creatures, unless you have blindsight, truesight, tremorsense, etc. something that allows you to "see" them.
The logic used to reach this conclusion leads people to the conclusion they can see creature's locations through walls as if they had xray vision.
Hiding can guarantee you don't know its location, but being hidden is not the only means of not knowing where a creature is. The default position is to not know where someone is.
You only know where something is if you can detect it with your senses.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Personally I remove the invisible miniature on the board, preferably replacing it with a translucent miniature to mark it's last known location. I track the actual location of the invisible character in my head. I don't find this difficult, but then again, I haven't ever run an encounter with more than 3 invisible creatures.
As Quindraco mentioned in his comment, this topic has already been beaten to death in other threads. I suggest you read this thread on the topic as you are going top get more or less the same responses from more or less the same people.
As Quin also said, there are multiple camps that read the rules in different ways. I would belong to camp 1 (along with the majority?) of the camps he listed. And just to address the bias and the primary counterargument against this camp right away: People belonging to this camp generally don't believe your senses magically extend to "infinite range". I haven't seen anyone suggest that, except those with an opposing view. It is an absurd statement, and it is not addressed in the rules at all (to my knowledge). Common sense applies unless the rules say otherwise, and so does the limits of your sensory perception, even if the rules don't describe the different ones in detail.
Here are the relevant rules:
Let me start by listing the rules we find directly described in the Invisible condition itself:
You make attack rolls with advantage.
Attack rolls against you are made with disadvantage.
You are not hidden by default.
You are considered heavily obscured, meaning you can e.g. take the Hide action to become hidden while standing right in front of your enemy.
Invisible
An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage.
If you do take the Hide action, and you succeed (against contested rolls) you become hidden from those trying to perceive you as described below. This is pretty self-explanatory, but to spell it out: even if you are invisible, you are not hidden until you Hide. Until you do so, you are merely unseen (assuming you're invisible or otherwise unseen). Some of the benefits overlap, others do not.
Hide When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter.
In order to attack an invisible (or otherwise unseen) creature, you don't have to actually know the creature's location, you can also simply guess the correct location (the square if you play on a grid). The rules suggests that DMs typically don't give away whether or not a creature actually is in the targeted location, until the players know this for sure (e.g. on a hit). Personally I'd simply have the players roll with disadvantage when trying to guess the target's location (because they can't see the target).
Unseen Attackers and Targets
Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.
When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.
When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.
If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
The benefits of being unseen are largely the same as being hidden. I have listed the immediate benefits of being unseen and being hidden below:
Benefit
Unseen
Hidden
You make attack rolls with advantage.
X
X
Attack rolls against you are made with disadvantage.
X
X
You are considered heavily obscured.
X
X
Your location is unknown.
X
If you turn invisible and you successfully hide from a target, you are hidden from the target until you reveal yourself to the target, or the target actively and successfully searches for you. If the target's passive perception is higher than your stealth roll, he will notice you without actively searching for you.
HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
...
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5.
Regarding whether or not you will unintentionally hit an invisible creature that is in the path of an attack, the rules are mostly silent on this point. There are however rules in place for Cover, and personally I draw inspiration from the spellcasting rules on the matter. Drawing on the rules just mentioned (and quoted below), in my world a creature will be hit if they are in line of the attack provided the following conditions are met: (1) the attack roll is below the AC + cover of the intended target; (2) the attack would hit the creature in line of the attack if it had been the intended target.
A Clear Path to the Target
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover.
If you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction.
Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.
There are three degrees of cover. If a target is behind multiple sources of cover, only the most protective degree of cover applies; the degrees aren't added together. For example, if a target is behind a creature that gives half cover and a tree trunk that gives three-quarters cover, the target has three-quarters cover.
Half Cover
A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
Three-Quarters Cover
A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has three-quarters cover if about three-quarters of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk.
Total Cover
A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle.
I'm not going to quote the above but this was insightful because I know once I get into using Invisibility, and that is soon, my players will want to know where the rules come from and I can at least point to these specific sections in the book.
Thank you, Misty, I think that pretty much covers the entire issue very thoroughly. I think one of the things that I said that had confused Rav was that I was using the incorrect term "Cover", which means something specific in the rules of 5e, when I should have been saying "Obscured". My posts were also largely under the assumption of discussing what to do if the PCs are mid-combat with a creature that turns invisible right in front of them, so some of my advice contradicted something like if a creature is already out of line of sight or outside of combat and turns invisible.
As other have noted. Unless the player or creature takes the Hide action and outrolls the passive stealth, then they know roughly where the invisbile person/creature is. Attack rolls are at disadvantage, but you can still attack them. You are able to hear or otherwise perceive them as being in a certain area. And yes, no opportunity attacks on invisible creatures, unless you have blindsight, truesight, tremorsense, etc. something that allows you to "see" them.
The logic used to reach this conclusion leads people to the conclusion they can see creature's locations through walls as if they had xray vision.
Hiding can guarantee you don't know its location, but being hidden is not the only means of not knowing where a creature is. The default position is to not know where someone is.
You only know where something is if you can detect it with your senses.
Not even sure what your argument is.
If you are invisible, you are considered heavily obscured. But you are NOT hidden. Yes, there are multiple ways the creature/player might know where you are, even while you are invisible. All attacks against you will be at disadvantage unless they have some way of "seeing" you while you are invisible i.e. blindsight, truesight, tremorsense, etc.
Invisible Condition
"An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage."
The way I run it is, I keep a reminder of where the monster was when it went invisible, but in my mind remember where the monster is. If the monster does something that makes them visible, I immediately put their figure there. If the monster does any other action that might be detected, I move the reminder to that position. The monster is invisible, it has a right to be.
If a creature's location is known it is visible on the map. Being invisible gives it advantage on its attacks and disadvantage to be hit.
However, because it can't be seen it can take an action to hide. It makes a stealth roll and if the stealth roll exceeds the passive perception of the creatures nearby, I remove the marker from the map because its location is no longer known. Anyone wishing to attack the creature not only has disadvantage on the attack but must also guess what location they might be in.
Finally, hidden means UNSEEN and UNHEARD. An invisible creature is unseen so if its location is being detected it is due to being heard or some other aspect of the situation. This is where a DM ruling can come into play. If, depending on the circumstances, the DM decides that the creature can NOT be heard or otherwise detected then by definition it is also hidden and its location is not known.
I tend to use with creatures like an invisible stalker. They are invisible and made out of air. You might be able to hear it move in a completely quite room as a sighing in the air from a "wind" blowing. However, in many environments the party would not be able to hear an invisible stalker, its passage may not leave any traces and so, since it is unseen and unheard, it can be automatically hidden. In this case, a marker for the creature is only placed when it makes an attack and it disappears as soon as it is considered hidden again.
As other have noted. Unless the player or creature takes the Hide action and outrolls the passive stealth, then they know roughly where the invisbile person/creature is. Attack rolls are at disadvantage, but you can still attack them. You are able to hear or otherwise perceive them as being in a certain area. And yes, no opportunity attacks on invisible creatures, unless you have blindsight, truesight, tremorsense, etc. something that allows you to "see" them.
The logic used to reach this conclusion leads people to the conclusion they can see creature's locations through walls as if they had xray vision.
Hiding can guarantee you don't know its location, but being hidden is not the only means of not knowing where a creature is. The default position is to not know where someone is.
You only know where something is if you can detect it with your senses.
Not even sure what your argument is.
If you are invisible, you are considered heavily obscured. But you are NOT hidden. Yes, there are multiple ways the creature/player might know where you are, even while you are invisible. All attacks against you will be at disadvantage unless they have some way of "seeing" you while you are invisible i.e. blindsight, truesight, tremorsense, etc.
You seem to be under the impression someone is only 1 of 2: hidden, or known.
But that's false.
There are a million creatures in the worlds whose location you don't know. They're not taking the hide action, they're not hidden, and you have no idea where they are.
TLDR: You don't automatically know the location of creatures simply because they're not hidden.
Invisible Condition
"An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage."
Yeah. You can't see them. So you might not even know they're there. You certainly don't know where they are. Not unless they do something that gives the location away, like attack or make a ton of noise.
The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
This is the line people are getting confused by I think. Notice how it is phrased and think about what it means. "can be" detected. Not: "is" detected. Why phrase it like this if they're automatically detected? Because it isn't automatic. Only if they make a sufficiently loud noise or leave tracks is their location detected. That is here to remind us that despite the fact they're invisible it may still be possible to detect them, maybe not guaranteed, but possible.
If the ground is something that tracks are made in, and he creature is a thing that leaves tracks, boom, easy. You'll see them making tracks and can identify where they are.
But not if they're a hovering will o' wisp or something. This thing doesn't leave tracks. You can't detect it from its tracks because there are none.
Same goes for sound and noise. If they're a big old giant knight in full plate or something, clanking around with every footstep, sure, you can hear them every footstep they make.
But, again, a will o wisp is an undead invisible ball of hatred. It doesn't even make sound. You'll not automatically know where one of these thigns is. it doesn't make any sense that you even would. it is invisible, silent, and hovering in the air. How, exactly, is your character "detecting" its location?
... he isn't.
Because an invisible creature's location isn't automatically revealed. It is only revealed if they leave tracks or make a noise.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
As DM I use similar rules as David42 and Ravnodaus. It depends on context. Invisible Stalker on windy day is "hidden" automatically unless there is some logical way to see or hear it. Wizard casting invisibility on snowing day with snow all around is just unseen (and have to throw very well in stealh to stay hidden).
The logic used to reach this conclusion leads people to the conclusion they can see creature's locations through walls as if they had xray vision.
This is a good point and I have been giving some thought to what I might consider the difference in this situation and the case of someone being invisible, but not hidden. If someone is behind full cover, such as behind a wall, then they are certainly unseen, so the examples have that in common. As for whether the wall also makes them unheard, it's going to be a situational call for the DM. I know it's an oversimplification, but the party typically will not be aware of the presence of creatures in the next room or around the corner in my game unless there is something specific going on to change that status like combat, someone working a forge, the party actively attempting to perceive the presence of something, etc.
As other have noted. Unless the player or creature takes the Hide action and outrolls the passive stealth, then they know roughly where the invisbile person/creature is. Attack rolls are at disadvantage, but you can still attack them. You are able to hear or otherwise perceive them as being in a certain area. And yes, no opportunity attacks on invisible creatures, unless you have blindsight, truesight, tremorsense, etc. something that allows you to "see" them.
The logic used to reach this conclusion leads people to the conclusion they can see creature's locations through walls as if they had xray vision.
Hiding can guarantee you don't know its location, but being hidden is not the only means of not knowing where a creature is. The default position is to not know where someone is.
You only know where something is if you can detect it with your senses.
Not even sure what your argument is.
If you are invisible, you are considered heavily obscured. But you are NOT hidden. Yes, there are multiple ways the creature/player might know where you are, even while you are invisible. All attacks against you will be at disadvantage unless they have some way of "seeing" you while you are invisible i.e. blindsight, truesight, tremorsense, etc.
You seem to be under the impression someone is only 1 of 2: hidden, or known.
But that's false.
There are a million creatures in the worlds whose location you don't know. They're not taking the hide action, they're not hidden, and you have no idea where they are.
TLDR: You don't automatically know the location of creatures simply because they're not hidden.
Invisible Condition
"An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage."
Yeah. You can't see them. So you might not even know they're there. You certainly don't know where they are. Not unless they do something that gives the location away, like attack or make a ton of noise.
The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
This is the line people are getting confused by I think. Notice how it is phrased and think about what it means. "can be" detected. Not: "is" detected. Why phrase it like this if they're automatically detected? Because it isn't automatic. Only if they make a sufficiently loud noise or leave tracks is their location detected. That is here to remind us that despite the fact they're invisible it may still be possible to detect them, maybe not guaranteed, but possible.
If the ground is something that tracks are made in, and he creature is a thing that leaves tracks, boom, easy. You'll see them making tracks and can identify where they are.
But not if they're a hovering will o' wisp or something. This thing doesn't leave tracks. You can't detect it from its tracks because there are none.
Same goes for sound and noise. If they're a big old giant knight in full plate or something, clanking around with every footstep, sure, you can hear them every footstep they make.
But, again, a will o wisp is an undead invisible ball of hatred. It doesn't even make sound. You'll not automatically know where one of these thigns is. it doesn't make any sense that you even would. it is invisible, silent, and hovering in the air. How, exactly, is your character "detecting" its location?
... he isn't.
Because an invisible creature's location isn't automatically revealed. It is only revealed if they leave tracks or make a noise.
I think I play similarly to Ravnodaus except I err towards the position being known unless circumstances would lead me to rule that the creature can be considered automatically hidden.
I think some folks forget that hiding is not the only way to be hidden.
Using an action to hide and succeeding on a stealth roll makes the creature hidden and their position unknown.
However, the rules also clearly define hidden as being unseen and unheard. When a creature is invisible and can't be seen they are half way there.
For example, a creature on a stone floor who is invisible in a silence spell would be automatically hidden in most cases when I am running a game. Similarly, an invisible creature in a room with a waterfall is also likely automatically hidden because there is no reasonable way to detect their location. It is a DM call but since hidden is defined as unseen AND unheard - a DM is well within the rules deciding that a creature is automatically hidden depending on the circumstances.
Similarly, an invisible creature running in a muddy field or over snow is very unlikely to be hidden because they are leaving clear tracks - a creature which can see the tracks as they are made will know the location of the invisible creature thus requiring the hide action if the creature wants to be hidden. A successful hide check in this case indicates the invisible creature taking the actions needed to either stop leaving tracks or causing any onlookers to lose track of which tracks might be theirs.
Anyway, hidden and removing a token from the board depends on either the creature taking the hide action and succeeding OR circumstances that allow the creature to be considered automatically hidden because they are both "unseen and unheard" and by inference not leaving other notable indications of their presence.
P.S. The default in my games is that the position is known unless the invisible creature takes actions to make sure it makes no noise and leaves no tracks (hide action and stealth roll) OR there are circumstances in the environment that cause the creature to be unseen and unheard and thus automatically hidden.
I think some folks forget that hiding is not the only way to be hidden.
Using an action to hide and succeeding on a stealth roll makes the creature hidden and their position unknown.
That's a really good point.
Creatures on the other side of a dungeon passage, or in different areas of the keep, or on the other side of the city are all hidden from you, but none of them took the Hide Action.
An invisible statue is hidden from you, but it (being an inanimate object) didn't take the Hide Action.
An incorporeal invisible flying thing is hidden from you (unseen, unheard, doesn't make a breeze, doesn't smell of anything), but it didn't take the Hide Action.
A camouflaged or concealed object is hidden from you, yet it didn't take the Hide Action though in this case a creature might have taken some other Action. As a GM, I'd ask for an Intelligence (Stealth) to attempt to camouflage or conceal an item. Optionally Intelligence (Survival) for a hunting hide.
I think I play similarly to Ravnodaus except I err towards the position being known unless circumstances would lead me to rule that the creature can be considered automatically hidden.
In these cases I use rule of DC difficulty. I set DC how hard it would be to detect it and use passive perception scores to see if anyone passes. IE that Invisible Staler on windy day could be DC15 on forest (lot of leafs flying that change direction odd way) or imposible on open grass land (nothing that might indicate where it is).
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As other have noted. Unless the player or creature takes the Hide action and outrolls the passive stealth, then they know roughly where the invisbile person/creature is. Attack rolls are at disadvantage, but you can still attack them. You are able to hear or otherwise perceive them as being in a certain area. And yes, no opportunity attacks on invisible creatures, unless you have blindsight, truesight, tremorsense, etc. something that allows you to "see" them.
This is false. The Hide action is not the only way a creature can be unknown to you. You do not know the location of most creatures in existence, for example, regardless of if they are or are not taking the hide action. I've seen this answer posted around before but it isn't supported by the rules.
You do not know the location of the invisible creature so long as you haven't detected that creature's location. If it is being loud enough to hear still, you could know where it is. That'd be one way to detect it. But that isn't a safe assumption. This is why characters have perception scores.
Hiding doesn't assume cover.
It assumes some means, any means, of the enemy not having a clear line of sight to you or otherwise being unable to detect you clearly as determined by your DM. Cover can do that that, but it certainly isn't the only way. You can hide perfectly fine in darkness, fog, or heavy foliage. None of those are cover. You can hide while invisible and standing in the middle of a room, that's certainly not cover.
You don't even really need these, either, if the DM determines the target can't or won't see you for other reasons, too. You can potentially hide in the middle of a well lit unfurnished room if the guard walking through it is so engrossed in his book he'd only notice if you made noise.
The rules specifically call attention to this fact. You'll note when trying to determine if you can hide or not the rules don't say cover determines it, instead the rules says:
"The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding."
It is, in fact, the very first sentence on the matter. You can find it in Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores, it is the very last subject in dexterity section, right before Constitution.
Sprinting through the middle of the battlefield can be called "coming out of hiding". I'm not sure where you got the notion that might not reveal you but, it probably would.
Again, Chapter 7: using Ability Scores, has this to say:
"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."
I'd suggest rereading this section.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The logic used to reach this conclusion leads people to the conclusion they can see creature's locations through walls as if they had xray vision.
Hiding can guarantee you don't know its location, but being hidden is not the only means of not knowing where a creature is. The default position is to not know where someone is.
You only know where something is if you can detect it with your senses.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So Rav, how do you indicate invisible creates on the map?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Personally I remove the invisible miniature on the board, preferably replacing it with a translucent miniature to mark it's last known location. I track the actual location of the invisible character in my head. I don't find this difficult, but then again, I haven't ever run an encounter with more than 3 invisible creatures.
As Quindraco mentioned in his comment, this topic has already been beaten to death in other threads. I suggest you read this thread on the topic as you are going top get more or less the same responses from more or less the same people.
As Quin also said, there are multiple camps that read the rules in different ways. I would belong to camp 1 (along with the majority?) of the camps he listed. And just to address the bias and the primary counterargument against this camp right away: People belonging to this camp generally don't believe your senses magically extend to "infinite range". I haven't seen anyone suggest that, except those with an opposing view. It is an absurd statement, and it is not addressed in the rules at all (to my knowledge). Common sense applies unless the rules say otherwise, and so does the limits of your sensory perception, even if the rules don't describe the different ones in detail.
Here are the relevant rules:
Let me start by listing the rules we find directly described in the Invisible condition itself:
If you do take the Hide action, and you succeed (against contested rolls) you become hidden from those trying to perceive you as described below. This is pretty self-explanatory, but to spell it out: even if you are invisible, you are not hidden until you Hide. Until you do so, you are merely unseen (assuming you're invisible or otherwise unseen). Some of the benefits overlap, others do not.
In order to attack an invisible (or otherwise unseen) creature, you don't have to actually know the creature's location, you can also simply guess the correct location (the square if you play on a grid). The rules suggests that DMs typically don't give away whether or not a creature actually is in the targeted location, until the players know this for sure (e.g. on a hit). Personally I'd simply have the players roll with disadvantage when trying to guess the target's location (because they can't see the target).
The benefits of being unseen are largely the same as being hidden. I have listed the immediate benefits of being unseen and being hidden below:
If you turn invisible and you successfully hide from a target, you are hidden from the target until you reveal yourself to the target, or the target actively and successfully searches for you. If the target's passive perception is higher than your stealth roll, he will notice you without actively searching for you.
Regarding whether or not you will unintentionally hit an invisible creature that is in the path of an attack, the rules are mostly silent on this point. There are however rules in place for Cover, and personally I draw inspiration from the spellcasting rules on the matter. Drawing on the rules just mentioned (and quoted below), in my world a creature will be hit if they are in line of the attack provided the following conditions are met: (1) the attack roll is below the AC + cover of the intended target; (2) the attack would hit the creature in line of the attack if it had been the intended target.
A Clear Path to the Target
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover.
If you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction.
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Cover
Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.
There are three degrees of cover. If a target is behind multiple sources of cover, only the most protective degree of cover applies; the degrees aren't added together. For example, if a target is behind a creature that gives half cover and a tree trunk that gives three-quarters cover, the target has three-quarters cover.
Half Cover
A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
Three-Quarters Cover
A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has three-quarters cover if about three-quarters of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk.
Total Cover
A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle.
I'm not going to quote the above but this was insightful because I know once I get into using Invisibility, and that is soon, my players will want to know where the rules come from and I can at least point to these specific sections in the book.
Thank you, Misty, I think that pretty much covers the entire issue very thoroughly. I think one of the things that I said that had confused Rav was that I was using the incorrect term "Cover", which means something specific in the rules of 5e, when I should have been saying "Obscured". My posts were also largely under the assumption of discussing what to do if the PCs are mid-combat with a creature that turns invisible right in front of them, so some of my advice contradicted something like if a creature is already out of line of sight or outside of combat and turns invisible.
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Tangent: YES/NO would Darkness (spell/environment) retain the same Unseen until Hidden?
Sure. If they cannot see you, you are unseen.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Not even sure what your argument is.
If you are invisible, you are considered heavily obscured. But you are NOT hidden. Yes, there are multiple ways the creature/player might know where you are, even while you are invisible. All attacks against you will be at disadvantage unless they have some way of "seeing" you while you are invisible i.e. blindsight, truesight, tremorsense, etc.
Invisible Condition
"An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage."
The way I run it is, I keep a reminder of where the monster was when it went invisible, but in my mind remember where the monster is. If the monster does something that makes them visible, I immediately put their figure there. If the monster does any other action that might be detected, I move the reminder to that position. The monster is invisible, it has a right to be.
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My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
Here is how I run it.
If a creature's location is known it is visible on the map. Being invisible gives it advantage on its attacks and disadvantage to be hit.
However, because it can't be seen it can take an action to hide. It makes a stealth roll and if the stealth roll exceeds the passive perception of the creatures nearby, I remove the marker from the map because its location is no longer known. Anyone wishing to attack the creature not only has disadvantage on the attack but must also guess what location they might be in.
Finally, hidden means UNSEEN and UNHEARD. An invisible creature is unseen so if its location is being detected it is due to being heard or some other aspect of the situation. This is where a DM ruling can come into play. If, depending on the circumstances, the DM decides that the creature can NOT be heard or otherwise detected then by definition it is also hidden and its location is not known.
I tend to use with creatures like an invisible stalker. They are invisible and made out of air. You might be able to hear it move in a completely quite room as a sighing in the air from a "wind" blowing. However, in many environments the party would not be able to hear an invisible stalker, its passage may not leave any traces and so, since it is unseen and unheard, it can be automatically hidden. In this case, a marker for the creature is only placed when it makes an attack and it disappears as soon as it is considered hidden again.
My views have changed since first starting in 5E - Invisibility is a lot weaker than in earlier editions.
My latest understanding is that Invisibility makes you unseen - so any ability that requires seeing you can't be used on you.
People will know where you are from other non-visual clues, so your general position isn't unknown to all other combatants.
Using Stealth, you can hide your position from other combatants - so at this point the token could be removed from the board.
You seem to be under the impression someone is only 1 of 2: hidden, or known.
But that's false.
There are a million creatures in the worlds whose location you don't know. They're not taking the hide action, they're not hidden, and you have no idea where they are.
TLDR: You don't automatically know the location of creatures simply because they're not hidden.
Yeah. You can't see them. So you might not even know they're there. You certainly don't know where they are. Not unless they do something that gives the location away, like attack or make a ton of noise.
This is the line people are getting confused by I think. Notice how it is phrased and think about what it means. "can be" detected. Not: "is" detected. Why phrase it like this if they're automatically detected? Because it isn't automatic. Only if they make a sufficiently loud noise or leave tracks is their location detected. That is here to remind us that despite the fact they're invisible it may still be possible to detect them, maybe not guaranteed, but possible.
If the ground is something that tracks are made in, and he creature is a thing that leaves tracks, boom, easy. You'll see them making tracks and can identify where they are.
But not if they're a hovering will o' wisp or something. This thing doesn't leave tracks. You can't detect it from its tracks because there are none.
Same goes for sound and noise. If they're a big old giant knight in full plate or something, clanking around with every footstep, sure, you can hear them every footstep they make.
But, again, a will o wisp is an undead invisible ball of hatred. It doesn't even make sound. You'll not automatically know where one of these thigns is. it doesn't make any sense that you even would. it is invisible, silent, and hovering in the air. How, exactly, is your character "detecting" its location?
... he isn't.
Because an invisible creature's location isn't automatically revealed. It is only revealed if they leave tracks or make a noise.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I leave any invisible creature on the map, unless it's hidden.
I do the same for creatures heavily obscured or blinded.
As DM I use similar rules as David42 and Ravnodaus. It depends on context. Invisible Stalker on windy day is "hidden" automatically unless there is some logical way to see or hear it. Wizard casting invisibility on snowing day with snow all around is just unseen (and have to throw very well in stealh to stay hidden).
This is a good point and I have been giving some thought to what I might consider the difference in this situation and the case of someone being invisible, but not hidden. If someone is behind full cover, such as behind a wall, then they are certainly unseen, so the examples have that in common. As for whether the wall also makes them unheard, it's going to be a situational call for the DM. I know it's an oversimplification, but the party typically will not be aware of the presence of creatures in the next room or around the corner in my game unless there is something specific going on to change that status like combat, someone working a forge, the party actively attempting to perceive the presence of something, etc.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I think I play similarly to Ravnodaus except I err towards the position being known unless circumstances would lead me to rule that the creature can be considered automatically hidden.
I think some folks forget that hiding is not the only way to be hidden.
Using an action to hide and succeeding on a stealth roll makes the creature hidden and their position unknown.
However, the rules also clearly define hidden as being unseen and unheard. When a creature is invisible and can't be seen they are half way there.
For example, a creature on a stone floor who is invisible in a silence spell would be automatically hidden in most cases when I am running a game. Similarly, an invisible creature in a room with a waterfall is also likely automatically hidden because there is no reasonable way to detect their location. It is a DM call but since hidden is defined as unseen AND unheard - a DM is well within the rules deciding that a creature is automatically hidden depending on the circumstances.
Similarly, an invisible creature running in a muddy field or over snow is very unlikely to be hidden because they are leaving clear tracks - a creature which can see the tracks as they are made will know the location of the invisible creature thus requiring the hide action if the creature wants to be hidden. A successful hide check in this case indicates the invisible creature taking the actions needed to either stop leaving tracks or causing any onlookers to lose track of which tracks might be theirs.
Anyway, hidden and removing a token from the board depends on either the creature taking the hide action and succeeding OR circumstances that allow the creature to be considered automatically hidden because they are both "unseen and unheard" and by inference not leaving other notable indications of their presence.
P.S. The default in my games is that the position is known unless the invisible creature takes actions to make sure it makes no noise and leaves no tracks (hide action and stealth roll) OR there are circumstances in the environment that cause the creature to be unseen and unheard and thus automatically hidden.
That's a really good point.
Creatures on the other side of a dungeon passage, or in different areas of the keep, or on the other side of the city are all hidden from you, but none of them took the Hide Action.
An invisible statue is hidden from you, but it (being an inanimate object) didn't take the Hide Action.
An incorporeal invisible flying thing is hidden from you (unseen, unheard, doesn't make a breeze, doesn't smell of anything), but it didn't take the Hide Action.
A camouflaged or concealed object is hidden from you, yet it didn't take the Hide Action though in this case a creature might have taken some other Action. As a GM, I'd ask for an Intelligence (Stealth) to attempt to camouflage or conceal an item. Optionally Intelligence (Survival) for a hunting hide.
In these cases I use rule of DC difficulty. I set DC how hard it would be to detect it and use passive perception scores to see if anyone passes. IE that Invisible Staler on windy day could be DC15 on forest (lot of leafs flying that change direction odd way) or imposible on open grass land (nothing that might indicate where it is).