That brings me to the point of the thread though, that of the trigger text on reaction spells, silvery barbs, feather fall and counterspell "* - which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell". These strike me as being a little different mechanically. Being that there are specific triggers that need to be met before you are able to cast these spells and metamagic can't be applied until you cast a spell maybe there is a good argument that distant spell should be allowed on most spells where the text conflicts with the increased range, as that seems like a technicality. But these reaction spells the in game mechanics are different so distant spell shouldn't be house ruled differently than RAW.
In these cases, I would say that the trigger is never actually met. No trigger means no reaction spell. No reaction spell means no distant metamagic.
I'm on team "yes you can apply Distant to a reaction spell"
The range on counterspell is 60 feet, which is clearly referring to the triggering range, because what else could it refer to?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
We may be having two different discussions. I am saying that distant metamagic would not let you counterspell a spell cast 100 feet away from you (doubling the typical 60-foot trigger to 120 feet)
We may be having two different discussions. I am saying that distant metamagic would not let you counterspell a spell cast 100 feet away from you (doubling the typical 60-foot trigger to 120 feet)
Right, and I'm saying I'd allow that in my games
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ah, so you're letting the distant metamagic apply before your spell is even cast?
No, they're saying that the trigger's range is the spell's range, and that the trigger occurring and the spell being cast aren't sequential events but are, in fact, simultaneous (at least, for these purposes). This isn't a new idea. Reactions that interrupt (and sometimes even prevent) their triggers have been in the game since its first release.
We all know what it means. How far a spell can be used at. Don't overthink it. If you double the range of mage hand, you can now use it out to 60ft instead of 30ft. Whatever variable needs to change to accommodate this new range is changed.
This is like trying to argue that battlemasters can't use their lunging attack ability because it doesn't say that they can cross into adjacent squares to make the attack, nor that their arms get super long or whatever. Or arguing that it provokes opportunity attacks because they must have crossed into a new square or something. You're looking for reasons to stop an ability from doing what it does, at that point.
Keep it simple, because it is simple. If the feature says you increase the range, then how far away that spell can be used at is increased. Again, anything that seems to also need changed to accommodate this is also changed. Because the specific feature that says the range is increased supersedes the more general rules.
Having said all that... for this metamagic option specifically, and how it interacts with spells that have a trigger, such as silvery barbs, is a little more complicated. They're different because of the order of events. To cast silvery barbs the trigger event must be present. But, you haven't extended the range of it with metamagic at this point in time. So, only after the trigger event and you cast it with metamagic is the range increased. So, in this weird scenario, similar for counterspell, you can't use metamagic to increase the trigger range, because metamagic is applied to it during the cast, not during the event that allows you to cast.
If you had some other means of extending the range that was simply 'always on', though, it would allow for longer reaction cast spell trigger ranges.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Ah, so you're letting the distant metamagic apply before your spell is even cast?
No, they're saying that the trigger's range is the spell's range, and that the trigger occurring and the spell being cast aren't sequential events but are, in fact, simultaneous (at least, for these purposes). This isn't a new idea. Reactions that interrupt (and sometimes even prevent) their triggers have been in the game since its first release.
Everything you said assumes the trigger is met in the first place to allow the reaction. That is the part I disagree with. Even if the reaction interrupts its original trigger, there is still an issue of prerequisite.
For the sake of this example, I will accept that the trigger's range equals the spell's range and when one is modified, both are modified together.
No modifiers yet exist because nothing has happened
The trigger occurs
The reaction occurs, potentially interrupting the trigger
Distant metamagic doubles the range of the reaction spell
The trigger for counterspell is still 60 feet when we are at step 2. You can say that the reaction retroactively inserts itself before the trigger, but only if the trigger allows it to happen in the first place. The original trigger is never met because the caster is out of range until distant spell metamagic is used, so the subsequent steps cannot occur. The prerequisite for step 4 is step 3. The prerequisite for step 3 is step 2 regardless of whether we choose to retroactively insert step 3 in front of step 2 after that prerequisite is met.
@James62888542 Can Distant Spell be used to increase the reaction trigger requirement for Counterspell to 120 feet? It seems like the reaction trigger of 60 feet must be met before you can cast Counterspell, which is before you could apply Distant Spell. Thanks!
@DaveWil33Yeah, mechanically the distance in the trigger is not the range of the spell so even if you did have some kind of passive spell range increase it wouldn't affect that.
@James62888542 Can Distant Spell be used to increase the reaction trigger requirement for Counterspell to 120 feet? It seems like the reaction trigger of 60 feet must be met before you can cast Counterspell, which is before you could apply Distant Spell. Thanks!
@DaveWil33Yeah, mechanically the distance in the trigger is not the range of the spell so even if you did have some kind of passive spell range increase it wouldn't affect that.
@JeremyECrawfordDave is correct.
That isn't rules, that is just people's opinions.
The same people who wrote the Telekinetic Feat. Which, serves to prove otherwise. As it increases the range of mage hand to 60ft from 30ft. If all it did was change the range entry and leave the other related and relevant text alone then the feat wouldn't actually function. That's clearly not the intent. So, we must derive that an increase to range increases the other factors that would limit its range.
A Distant Counterspell wouldn't increase the trigger but not because of the stuff linked here, but instead because the distant spell is applied after the trigger. Sequentially it isn't changed at that point in time yet. A passive effect would be different.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
@James62888542 Can Distant Spell be used to increase the reaction trigger requirement for Counterspell to 120 feet? It seems like the reaction trigger of 60 feet must be met before you can cast Counterspell, which is before you could apply Distant Spell. Thanks!
@DaveWil33Yeah, mechanically the distance in the trigger is not the range of the spell so even if you did have some kind of passive spell range increase it wouldn't affect that.
@JeremyECrawfordDave is correct.
It's great that Crawford has weighed on this, unofficially at least, and pretty recently too. However, he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. He's answering the question as if the 5e books are written the way the 4e books were, which they're not. I'm just as guilty as examining the rules legalistically as everyone else who frequents this forum, but I'm trying to do better and to read 5e as it is, not as I wish it were. And as it is, the triggering range is obviously the range of the spell, because that's how any casual reader would take it. The rules are quite literally explicitly designed to resist the level of scrutiny we're applying.
It's pretty clear that those of us who spend our time here would really appreciate tighter, more formalized rules language. Let's hope the core rules revamp in 2024 addresses some of this.
Ah, so you're letting the distant metamagic apply before your spell is even cast?
No, they're saying that the trigger's range is the spell's range, and that the trigger occurring and the spell being cast aren't sequential events but are, in fact, simultaneous (at least, for these purposes). This isn't a new idea. Reactions that interrupt (and sometimes even prevent) their triggers have been in the game since its first release.
Thanks for this argument, its kind of what I've been looking for as a counter to the idea that distant spell wouldn't work on reaction spells because of the sequence of events. It makes sense as an explanation for how it could work.
I'm not convinced that its RAW but its at least addressing the specific argument about reaction spells and points out a way it could work conceptually. Do you, or anyone else, have any source saying that triggers work like that?
Ah, so you're letting the distant metamagic apply before your spell is even cast?
No, they're saying that the trigger's range is the spell's range, and that the trigger occurring and the spell being cast aren't sequential events but are, in fact, simultaneous (at least, for these purposes). This isn't a new idea. Reactions that interrupt (and sometimes even prevent) their triggers have been in the game since its first release.
Thanks for this argument, its kind of what I've been looking for as a counter to the idea that distant spell wouldn't work on reaction spells because of the sequence of events. It makes sense as an explanation for how it could work.
I'm not convinced that its RAW but its at least addressing the specific argument about reaction spells and points out a way it could work conceptually. Do you, or anyone else, have any source saying that triggers work like that?
Yeah this argument has me reevaluating how I conceptually handle some things. It is a good argument. If the casting of the reaction spell is indeed simultaneous to the trigger of the spell, then... yeah, distance spell metamagic could increase the trigger range. I'm still chewing on the concept and rereading some rules text but conceptually this is sound rationale.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm not convinced that its RAW but its at least addressing the specific argument about reaction spells and points out a way it could work conceptually. Do you, or anyone else, have any source saying that triggers work like that?
The rule for reactions is that they happen after the trigger, unless the reaction says otherwise. Counterspell says otherwise. Opportunity attacks say otherwise.
Ah, so you're letting the distant metamagic apply before your spell is even cast?
Unless otherwise noted (i.e. it affects damage), metamagic is applied at the same time you cast the spell, not afterward. You don't cast something first, then metamagic it -- it's simultaneous
To put it another way, you are casting a spell with doubled range, not doubling the range of a spell you just cast
Distant Spell
When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can spend 1 sorcery point to double the range of the spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The trigger for counterspell is still 60 feet when we are at step 2.
The trigger for counterspell is someone casting a spell within range
Metamagic is literally defined in RAW as "you gain the ability to twist your spells to suit your needs." In that moment, you need its range doubled, so it is. That's what metamagic is supposed to do
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You can say that the reaction retroactively inserts itself before the trigger, but only if the trigger allows it to happen in the first place. The original trigger is never met because the caster is out of range until distant spell metamagic is used, so the subsequent steps cannot occur.
I'm gonna pick out this bit to address, because it's the part I think is important. All I have to say to it is: why?
If you have the sentinel feat, your interrupt reaction AoO can prevent the trigger from occurring, but you still get to take the reaction. The rules never actually justify this. We can try to, with some shenanigans, but we don't have to; we can just accept it and not think too hard about it, because there's no real point to doing so.
So we know for sure that the rules allow you to take a reaction and prevent the trigger from occurring. Why is it such a leap from that to "you can take a reaction that causes the trigger to occur"? Again, the rules never justify the former; it just makes sense. In context of Distant Spell, the latter also just makes sense. You could certainly argue that, actually, the first case doesn't make sense either and the Sentinel feat just doesn't work. I think we'd be at an impasse, and we'd just have to agree to disagree, but I'd get it. But I don't see an internally consistent way to allow Sentinel and disallow Distant Spell as discussed here.
I guess the difference is whether we are dissecting the order of operations according to RAW or if we are doing a thought experiment about how this would work if the trigger range was not a static distance separate of the spell's range.
I agree. A lot of these spell descriptions appear to be written without consideration for features that could alter a spell's range. Conversely, metamagic descriptions can fall into gray areas when their wording doesn't match up perfectly with a spell's description. I feel like spell tags would fix that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Not all those who wander are lost"
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm on team "yes you can apply Distant to a reaction spell"
The range on counterspell is 60 feet, which is clearly referring to the triggering range, because what else could it refer to?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
We may be having two different discussions. I am saying that distant metamagic would not let you counterspell a spell cast 100 feet away from you (doubling the typical 60-foot trigger to 120 feet)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Right, and I'm saying I'd allow that in my games
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ah, so you're letting the distant metamagic apply before your spell is even cast?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
No, they're saying that the trigger's range is the spell's range, and that the trigger occurring and the spell being cast aren't sequential events but are, in fact, simultaneous (at least, for these purposes). This isn't a new idea. Reactions that interrupt (and sometimes even prevent) their triggers have been in the game since its first release.
Range.
We all know what it means. How far a spell can be used at. Don't overthink it. If you double the range of mage hand, you can now use it out to 60ft instead of 30ft. Whatever variable needs to change to accommodate this new range is changed.
This is like trying to argue that battlemasters can't use their lunging attack ability because it doesn't say that they can cross into adjacent squares to make the attack, nor that their arms get super long or whatever. Or arguing that it provokes opportunity attacks because they must have crossed into a new square or something. You're looking for reasons to stop an ability from doing what it does, at that point.
Keep it simple, because it is simple. If the feature says you increase the range, then how far away that spell can be used at is increased. Again, anything that seems to also need changed to accommodate this is also changed. Because the specific feature that says the range is increased supersedes the more general rules.
Having said all that... for this metamagic option specifically, and how it interacts with spells that have a trigger, such as silvery barbs, is a little more complicated. They're different because of the order of events. To cast silvery barbs the trigger event must be present. But, you haven't extended the range of it with metamagic at this point in time. So, only after the trigger event and you cast it with metamagic is the range increased. So, in this weird scenario, similar for counterspell, you can't use metamagic to increase the trigger range, because metamagic is applied to it during the cast, not during the event that allows you to cast.
If you had some other means of extending the range that was simply 'always on', though, it would allow for longer reaction cast spell trigger ranges.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Everything you said assumes the trigger is met in the first place to allow the reaction. That is the part I disagree with. Even if the reaction interrupts its original trigger, there is still an issue of prerequisite.
For the sake of this example, I will accept that the trigger's range equals the spell's range and when one is modified, both are modified together.
The trigger for counterspell is still 60 feet when we are at step 2. You can say that the reaction retroactively inserts itself before the trigger, but only if the trigger allows it to happen in the first place. The original trigger is never met because the caster is out of range until distant spell metamagic is used, so the subsequent steps cannot occur. The prerequisite for step 4 is step 3. The prerequisite for step 3 is step 2 regardless of whether we choose to retroactively insert step 3 in front of step 2 after that prerequisite is met.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
A Distant Counterspell would look like this;
For those interested it's already been answered by the Dev; https://www.sageadvice.eu/can-distant-spell-be-used-to-increase-the-reaction-trigger-requirement-for-counterspell-to-120-feet/
Another exemple a Distant Sunbeam spell look like this
The Dev answer goes in the same direction again; https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/729793588322652160?lang=en
That isn't rules, that is just people's opinions.
The same people who wrote the Telekinetic Feat. Which, serves to prove otherwise. As it increases the range of mage hand to 60ft from 30ft. If all it did was change the range entry and leave the other related and relevant text alone then the feat wouldn't actually function. That's clearly not the intent. So, we must derive that an increase to range increases the other factors that would limit its range.
A Distant Counterspell wouldn't increase the trigger but not because of the stuff linked here, but instead because the distant spell is applied after the trigger. Sequentially it isn't changed at that point in time yet. A passive effect would be different.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It's great that Crawford has weighed on this, unofficially at least, and pretty recently too. However, he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. He's answering the question as if the 5e books are written the way the 4e books were, which they're not. I'm just as guilty as examining the rules legalistically as everyone else who frequents this forum, but I'm trying to do better and to read 5e as it is, not as I wish it were. And as it is, the triggering range is obviously the range of the spell, because that's how any casual reader would take it. The rules are quite literally explicitly designed to resist the level of scrutiny we're applying.
It's pretty clear that those of us who spend our time here would really appreciate tighter, more formalized rules language. Let's hope the core rules revamp in 2024 addresses some of this.
Thanks for this argument, its kind of what I've been looking for as a counter to the idea that distant spell wouldn't work on reaction spells because of the sequence of events. It makes sense as an explanation for how it could work.
I'm not convinced that its RAW but its at least addressing the specific argument about reaction spells and points out a way it could work conceptually. Do you, or anyone else, have any source saying that triggers work like that?
Yeah this argument has me reevaluating how I conceptually handle some things. It is a good argument. If the casting of the reaction spell is indeed simultaneous to the trigger of the spell, then... yeah, distance spell metamagic could increase the trigger range. I'm still chewing on the concept and rereading some rules text but conceptually this is sound rationale.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The rule for reactions is that they happen after the trigger, unless the reaction says otherwise. Counterspell says otherwise. Opportunity attacks say otherwise.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Unless otherwise noted (i.e. it affects damage), metamagic is applied at the same time you cast the spell, not afterward. You don't cast something first, then metamagic it -- it's simultaneous
To put it another way, you are casting a spell with doubled range, not doubling the range of a spell you just cast
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The trigger for counterspell is someone casting a spell within range
Metamagic is literally defined in RAW as "you gain the ability to twist your spells to suit your needs." In that moment, you need its range doubled, so it is. That's what metamagic is supposed to do
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I'm gonna pick out this bit to address, because it's the part I think is important. All I have to say to it is: why?
If you have the sentinel feat, your interrupt reaction AoO can prevent the trigger from occurring, but you still get to take the reaction. The rules never actually justify this. We can try to, with some shenanigans, but we don't have to; we can just accept it and not think too hard about it, because there's no real point to doing so.
So we know for sure that the rules allow you to take a reaction and prevent the trigger from occurring. Why is it such a leap from that to "you can take a reaction that causes the trigger to occur"? Again, the rules never justify the former; it just makes sense. In context of Distant Spell, the latter also just makes sense. You could certainly argue that, actually, the first case doesn't make sense either and the Sentinel feat just doesn't work. I think we'd be at an impasse, and we'd just have to agree to disagree, but I'd get it. But I don't see an internally consistent way to allow Sentinel and disallow Distant Spell as discussed here.
I guess the difference is whether we are dissecting the order of operations according to RAW or if we are doing a thought experiment about how this would work if the trigger range was not a static distance separate of the spell's range.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
If Counterspell had the following Casting Time there would be no debate;
I agree. A lot of these spell descriptions appear to be written without consideration for features that could alter a spell's range. Conversely, metamagic descriptions can fall into gray areas when their wording doesn't match up perfectly with a spell's description. I feel like spell tags would fix that.
"Not all those who wander are lost"