Like, "seeing Darkness" is literally "Darkness" - which is your point everywhere else.
That's never my point, because it's nonsense. "Seeing Darkness" is not the same as "Darkness", literally or otherwise.
Not that this was my intention, but now you know how I feel, lol... You regularly say, more or less, all that matters is the presence of environmental darkness and it doesn't matter how the character sees it but just that they're trying to see into it. Thus its effectively the same for you too, just spun the opposite direction. This is why arguing the meaning of words is somewhat futile.
This is gibberish.
Right, just like the points you make (I'm making your point back to you and you call it gibberish). You say Darkness is Darkness whether you see it, stand in it, don't see it, etc and none of the rules impact that or react to it. Usually following it up with rules that depend on darkness to do their thing (and make it look different, even "as if it were" something else)... You dress your language up but the rationale is still self-defeating.
1) You can just as easily say Darkvision Dim Light + Greyscale (but I totally thought Dim Light in general included Greyscale - you should have zeroed in on that, lol. You kind of did at one point but it wasn't clicking. I make the point Dim Light includes the greyscale thing regularly, and it just doesn't lol) and that may settle debates in how one can determine which sense they're using but not which rule might take affect over another. Again, the two rules treat the same thing (Darkness) differently at the same time, so if someone beefs about that, what settles it? I would say Simultaneous Effects absolutely obliterates any potential conflict I can think of, whereas as we've both proved, interpretation is easy to counter. You easily counter mine. I easily counter yours. We go no where.
2) And what's more, I can make the same argument as the OP without any interpretation by dictating someone simply argues you can only use one or the other at a given time since they are popping off at the "same time - perpetually" (which is also a weird interpretation, but I've heard stranger). That's a conflict which Simultaneous Effects also resolves - get my meaning (honestly? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything whatsoever here - not that I was before, but I was certainly frustrated and I'm certain that bled thru my posts, haha)
3) Finally, I totally agree w/ your interpretations btw but it doesn't settle weird interpretations like I've offered as counters. In other words, what else is in the rulebook which confirms that what you're saying is the intended way?
1) This is nonsense. Neither rule prevents the other, so applying one before the other or vice versa doesn't make a difference, so Simultaneous Effects is moot.
2) See above. Nonsense.
3) I'm not arguing the intended way. I'm arguing what it says. If the PHB didn't say what it's supposed to say, WotC would have had plenty of time to fix it - it's been errata'ed for a long time.
1 - It's not nonsense; you need Simultaneous Effects because Darkvision and Devil's Sight treat the same factor differently at the same time. The rules Darkvision and Devil's Sight alone do not dictate who picks which effect. Its that simple. 2 - so you have no rebuttal here either, got it... I guess that means my point stands since you're no arbiter of anything I'm aware of besides your personal opinion, which I can take or leave as readily as you have mine. It's whatever. 3 - They did. With Simultaneous Effects in Xanathar's Guide to Everything you just said was moot. So what exactly are you arguing??
Like, "seeing Darkness" is literally "Darkness" - which is your point everywhere else.
That's never my point, because it's nonsense. "Seeing Darkness" is not the same as "Darkness", literally or otherwise.
Not that this was my intention, but now you know how I feel, lol... You regularly say, more or less, all that matters is the presence of environmental darkness and it doesn't matter how the character sees it but just that they're trying to see into it. Thus its effectively the same for you too, just spun the opposite direction. This is why arguing the meaning of words is somewhat futile.
This is gibberish.
a) Right, just like the points you make (I'm making your point back to you and you call it gibberish). You say Darkness is Darkness whether you see it, stand in it, don't see it, etc and none of the rules impact that or react to it. Usually following it up with rules that depend on darkness to do their thing (and make it look different, even "as if it were" something else)... You dress your language up but the rationale is still self-defeating.
1) You can just as easily say Darkvision Dim Light + Greyscale (but I totally thought Dim Light in general included Greyscale - you should have zeroed in on that, lol. You kind of did at one point but it wasn't clicking. I make the point Dim Light includes the greyscale thing regularly, and it just doesn't lol) and that may settle debates in how one can determine which sense they're using but not which rule might take affect over another. Again, the two rules treat the same thing (Darkness) differently at the same time, so if someone beefs about that, what settles it? I would say Simultaneous Effects absolutely obliterates any potential conflict I can think of, whereas as we've both proved, interpretation is easy to counter. You easily counter mine. I easily counter yours. We go no where.
2) And what's more, I can make the same argument as the OP without any interpretation by dictating someone simply argues you can only use one or the other at a given time since they are popping off at the "same time - perpetually" (which is also a weird interpretation, but I've heard stranger). That's a conflict which Simultaneous Effects also resolves - get my meaning (honestly? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything whatsoever here - not that I was before, but I was certainly frustrated and I'm certain that bled thru my posts, haha)
3) Finally, I totally agree w/ your interpretations btw but it doesn't settle weird interpretations like I've offered as counters. In other words, what else is in the rulebook which confirms that what you're saying is the intended way?
1) This is nonsense. Neither rule prevents the other, so applying one before the other or vice versa doesn't make a difference, so Simultaneous Effects is moot.
2) See above. Nonsense.
3) I'm not arguing the intended way. I'm arguing what it says. If the PHB didn't say what it's supposed to say, WotC would have had plenty of time to fix it - it's been errata'ed for a long time.
1 - It's not nonsense; you need Simultaneous Effects because Darkvision and Devil's Sight treat the same factor differently at the same time. The rules Darkvision and Devil's Sight alone do not dictate who picks which effect. Its that simple. 2 - so you have no rebuttal here either, got it... I guess that means my point stands since you're no arbiter of anything I'm aware of besides your personal opinion, which I can take or leave as readily as you have mine. It's whatever. 3 - They did. With Simultaneous Effects in Xanathar's Guide to Everything you just said was moot. So what exactly are you arguing??
a) "Seeing darkness" is a verb combined with a noun. "Darkness" is just the noun. There is no logical rationale whatsoever to consider them to be the same thing. And saying that "arguing the meaning of words is somewhat futile" is a completely bizarro thing to say when arguing the meaning of words is all we do here. What argument are you making that disregards the meaning of words?
1) Have you properly read Simultaneous effects? The gist of it, as a reminder, is "... if two effects occur [at the end of a player character’s turn] at the same time, the [player] person controlling the character they happen to decides which of the two effects happens first." In other words, they still both happen unless the first one prevents the second from happening. Since Darkvision doesn't prevent Devil's Sight and Devil's Sight doesn't prevent Darkvision, they still both happen. The Simultaneous Effects rule is moot in this case. Which is not a problem in any way, since both Darkvision and Devil's Sight say you can do something, not that something absolutely must happen. The player decides if one, neither or both apply, based on nothing more than only the rules for Darkvision and Devil's Sight and only those rules.
2) See above, still nonsense.
3) That Simultaneous Effects is moot, based on what that rule literally says, and that that's not an issue, because of what the rules for Darkvision and Devil's Sight literally say.
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Darkvision says "You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light."
It doesn't change the fact that you are still trying to see in darkness.
Therefore the devil's sight rules can still be applied.
It does change the fact because you mechanically treat it as dim light. The fact that I can just as easily say the opposite means this interpretation does not actually clarify any potential conflicts between the ruleset.
In other words, you're claiming the benefit of the darkness becoming dim light, and then ignoring that mechanic to gain the benefit of devil's sight. Bear in mind the wording of Darkvision is to ensure players essentially always get its benefit - not to straddle the line with other very clear rules. To do what you're suggesting would break down the rules for light for the remainder of your campaign - Players saying, "well teeechnically I'm in this kind of light sooo" with a wide variety of spells and abilities. I could reach as far as saying like a torch in a dark tunnel - technically you're still in the dark but you have a bubble of light within it with your interpretation.
But do not be dismayed! You can still gain the benefits of both by declaring you see w/ Devil's Sight over Darkvision if you ever had to squeeze that rule out. Again, we're just playing w/ rule phrasing and your interpretation is every bit as legit as mine - but again, the fact that I can claim the rules could be interpreted the opposite leaves us at square one.
Darkvision and Devil's Sight don't change the ambient light at all so they both interact with what the light actually is, not what you perceive it as.
Pangurjan, I just want to point out that this whole thread is based on a work of fiction. Venyxos claims that the alternate "interpretation" is viable, even though no one (including Venyxos) has stepped up to say that is how they actually read it. It was a deliberate misreading of the rules (aka made up conflict in the rules) to create discussion for some reason. Everyone that has posted on this thread has agreed that there isn't a conflict in the rules other than Venyxos and even then to only to defend an "interpretation" that they don't even believe themselves. I really don't think this discussion is going to resolve itself at this point.
You asserted the fallacy. I never said the ambient light changed. I always inferred it was for the owning character. The OP presents it as a solitary character with the abilities, so that for simplicity sake, what they're experiencing is the effective rules for the light level dictacted.
But since you mention a "deliberate misreading of the rules" then I have to assume you're projecting and deliberately misreading what I say. Possibly because I made suggestions you hadn't considered before.
And "everyone who posted" doesn't mean much. There's about 20 of us, at most. And Paradox Traveler had no issue understanding my meaning and presenting the case which most of you agreed with (or ignored).
And guess what: Farling resolved this post days ago on page 1 by dropping Simultaneous Effects into the mix, which tells you exactly what to do when you have 2 rules which address the same thing (darkness) differently at the same time.
No projection required. At no point have you or anyone else stepped up to say, "Yes this is exactly how I interpret the RAW." As a matter of fact you have repeatedly asserted that you don't, and interpret it just like we do. The only thing this thread is about now is you desperately trying to make the conflict in the rules plausible while others point out that it isn't.
Anyway, it is time for me to turn my attention to more constructive endeavors and leave this thread behind. Good luck everyone :)
Darkvision says "You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light."
It doesn't change the fact that you are still trying to see in darkness.
Therefore the devil's sight rules can still be applied.
It does change the fact because you mechanically treat it as dim light. The fact that I can just as easily say the opposite means this interpretation does not actually clarify any potential conflicts between the ruleset.
In other words, you're claiming the benefit of the darkness becoming dim light, and then ignoring that mechanic to gain the benefit of devil's sight. Bear in mind the wording of Darkvision is to ensure players essentially always get its benefit - not to straddle the line with other very clear rules. To do what you're suggesting would break down the rules for light for the remainder of your campaign - Players saying, "well teeechnically I'm in this kind of light sooo" with a wide variety of spells and abilities. I could reach as far as saying like a torch in a dark tunnel - technically you're still in the dark but you have a bubble of light within it with your interpretation.
But do not be dismayed! You can still gain the benefits of both by declaring you see w/ Devil's Sight over Darkvision if you ever had to squeeze that rule out. Again, we're just playing w/ rule phrasing and your interpretation is every bit as legit as mine - but again, the fact that I can claim the rules could be interpreted the opposite leaves us at square one.
Darkvision and Devil's Sight don't change the ambient light at all so they both interact with what the light actually is, not what you perceive it as.
Pangurjan, I just want to point out that this whole thread is based on a work of fiction. Venyxos claims that the alternate "interpretation" is viable, even though no one (including Venyxos) has stepped up to say that is how they actually read it. It was a deliberate misreading of the rules (aka made up conflict in the rules) to create discussion for some reason. Everyone that has posted on this thread has agreed that there isn't a conflict in the rules other than Venyxos and even then to only to defend an "interpretation" that they don't even believe themselves. I really don't think this discussion is going to resolve itself at this point.
You asserted the fallacy. I never said the ambient light changed. I always inferred it was for the owning character. The OP presents it as a solitary character with the abilities, so that for simplicity sake, what they're experiencing is the effective rules for the light level dictacted.
But since you mention a "deliberate misreading of the rules" then I have to assume you're projecting and deliberately misreading what I say. Possibly because I made suggestions you hadn't considered before.
And "everyone who posted" doesn't mean much. There's about 20 of us, at most. And Paradox Traveler had no issue understanding my meaning and presenting the case which most of you agreed with (or ignored).
And guess what: Farling resolved this post days ago on page 1 by dropping Simultaneous Effects into the mix, which tells you exactly what to do when you have 2 rules which address the same thing (darkness) differently at the same time.
No projection required. At no point have you or anyone else stepped up to say, "Yes this is exactly how I interpret the RAW." As a matter of fact you have repeatedly asserted that you don't, and interpret it just like we do. The only thing this thread is about now is you desperately trying to make the conflict in the rules plausible while others point out that it isn't.
Anyway, it is time for me to turn my attention to more constructive endeavors and leave this thread behind. Good luck everyone :)
actually no - I've said in several places I play the say way you all are suggesting. And again, I must assume you're projecting when you say "the only thing this thread is about now is you desperately trying to make the conflict" and then just tucked "in the rules plausible while others point out that it isn't." to make it about me since that's exactly what you did.
You have yet to address what you do when you have two separate rules for the same factor (Darkness) which do different things (Dim Light + Greyscale or See Normally) at the same time (Always), so good luck to you to!
(edit: the following isn't necessarily just on you - I'm no writer...lol) This is what happens when you cherry pick phrasing and pull incomplete quotes - I wasn't saying Darkness becomes Dim Light for the game; just the character w/ Darkvision as far as their sight was concerned. And that isn't the first time I make the distinction. I'm pretty sure I made it to you as well prior to that. No offense, but maybe you just misinterpreted what I've been saying all along? (another issue w/ arguing interpretation; especially over text-based communication with no tone-of-voice/body language.)
But both Darkvision and Devil's Sight deal with the actual situation, not the subjective situation. Again, your argument is like saying that having 10' blindsight means you cannot see past 10' since the blindsight somehow blocks your use of normal sight. Or alternatively, that you cannot sense an invisible person within 10' in daylight since you can see everything else normally and therefore blindsight cannot function.
That darkvision lets you see in the dark does not mean you are not in the dark and that therefore devil's sight does not apply, nor the converse.
Blindsight does not say 'See as as if in dim light' but rather perceives without relying on light at all. So, with blindsight, you see normally. How, exactly, is that different than the wording you are going on about with darkvision, other than without the 'as if in dim light' qualifier? Blindsight, not being so qualified, lets you see as if in normal light.
That argument was presented by someone making the same points you all are so we're saying the same thing.
1) No, it does not change the illumination levels or how the character reacts to them in any way that precludes the other. It changes the ability of the individual possessing such abilities to see in the existing illumination level. It is similar to having the same effect on one twice. The stronger applies.
Not necessarily since the keywords are all different except for Darkness. Thus you do not invoke Combining Magical Effects that way. It's very specific about phrasing which is the same notion that prompted my OP.
2) This line of yours " affect the same thing differently at the same time, which is Darkness" is a complete fallacy. Neither Darkvision nor Devil's Sight affect the darkness.
They 100% affect how the character who owns the abilities treats Darkness on a mechanical level. You're effectively saying "the rules don't actually do anything" even though I know that's not what you mean.
You then launch into a straw man argument. I have not suggested that these abilities affect the vision of anyone except the person possessing them. I have not accused you of making any such argument either. I have snipped that portion of the quote of your post accordingly.
There's no straw-man. I've simply addressed the points time and time again, beyond what people have quoted (which is never the language from the OP, ironically).
Again, it is not 'turning dim to bright' any more than Blindsight is. It is simply a different way of perceiving. Bats can see normally in addition to echo location. The best sensory ability applies to any given situation. It is not a difficult concept.
Except Darkvision straight up says, "See in Darkness as if it were Dim Light" plus it appears as greyscale. Blindsight says nothing of the sort. Thus no conflict.
On the other hand, Devil's Sight and Darkvision both change the conditions of Darkness in different ways but at the same time. So what in the rules confirms how those apply beyond your interpretation?
If we are saying the same things, what is it about my point that is difficult to understand? Saying the same things and yet disagreeing is merely saying the same words, but not the same meaning, i.e. not actually the same things.
In regards to the blindsight; we're making the same point to someone else's comment. I've said I see your point, but always followed up with "but where's the rule that helps you determine when you have two different effects (Darkvision OR Devil's Sight OR both) on the same thing, at the same time. Simultaneous Effects. That's it. No where in the rules for light/illumination levels, devil's sight, or darkvision says which you may effect you may pick at a given time. According to you, any and all, at the same time. That means Darkness could appear as Darkness, Dim Light, or Normal/Bright Light to your character with the abilities. In regards to saying the same thing about Darkness just being Darkness and us making the same point - this is why we need additional rules to clarify how different rules play together. Otherwise, it's all the same and you have no proper distinction between one condition and the next. Its that simple.
I said 'similar to' not 'exactly the same as.' That they are not saying exactly the same thing strengthens the case that they both function, rather than weakens it.
Except we have additional words which reference "keywords" like we do in Combining Magical Effects which I referenced before. That rule says that they have to have the same language.
There is a straw man when you respond to my arguments with a counter to what someone else might have said, rather than what I had said.
"See in Darkness as if it were Dim Light" does not equal "Treat the darkness as dimly lit for all purposes." In fact, if it did say 'When this character is in darkness, the darkness is dimly lit for them,' then as soon as it became dimly lit for them, they would no longer be in darkness and the darkvision itself would turn off again. So it would be constantly turning on and off in some recursive loop. The very arguments you are making would apply to the darkvision ability itself. It simply does not work like that.
You're cherry picking, because like I said there, under Combining Magical Effects, Game Effects only apply once.
Blindsight says "A creature with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without having to rely on sight, within a specific radius." Note it does not have any greyscale qualifier or any other limitations on this perception. There isn't any proof against illusions specified in it either.
it says "without having to rely on sight" whereas Darkvision and Devil's Sight explicitely say "See/Seeing in/as if it were" - It doesn't say how it "looks" at all because the sense doesn't affect how things "look" but rather whether you can perceive them, which can be done w/ sound, smell, touch, or magical senses... It goes on to say:
Creatures without eyes, such as grimlocks and gray oozes, typically have this special sense, as do creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons.If a monster is naturally blind, it has a parenthetical note to this effect, indicating that the radius of its blindsight defines the maximum range of its perception.
So it does include limitations/descriptions of the sense. Counter to your statement, RAW.
Neither Darkvision nor Devil's sight change the condition of darkness, but rather, for that character, change the penalties associated with the condition of darkness. Again, if either removed the condition of darkness, then the ability itself would be flickering constantly on and off, since said condition is needed for either to be relevant.
How is "Neither Darkvision nor Devil's sight change the condition of darkness, but rather, for that character, change the penalties associated with the condition of darkness." any different than "changes the mechanical effect of darkness for the character"???
And there is no flicker, because as said before, Combining Magical Effects applies Darkvision once to make the Darkness "as if it were" Dim Light for the character. They use Darkvision once and the Darkness (which definitely stays there due to "as if it were" but the mechanical effect/penalty for that character changes) is as if were Dim Light for the purposes of seeing.
And none of your interpretations satisfy the OP which is most simply asking: What rules determine which effect applies when you have two different effects on the same condition (or target/entity/whatever) at the same time.
I included all the hub-bub on interpretation in the OP because I assumed people would target that first when I'm looking for rules which must exist outside of the rules in question.
And none of your interpretations satisfy the OP which is most simply asking: What rules determine which effect applies when you have two different effects on the same condition (or target/entity/whatever) at the same time.
There is no general rule for that. There doesn't have to be, because it would depend on the effects. If a magical item places two different effects on me when I put it on, they both apply as long as nothing in the rules for the item or the effects says otherwise. It's exactly the same for a character with both Darkvision and Devil's Sight in darkness. They both apply, since nothing in their rules says otherwise.
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And there is no flicker, because as said before, Combining Magical Effects applies Darkvision once to make the Darkness "as if it were" Dim Light for the character. They use Darkvision once and the Darkness (which definitely stays there due to "as if it were" but the mechanical effect/penalty for that character changes) is as if were Dim Light for the purposes of seeing.
If the darkness stays - which we all apparently agree on - then what's the conflict with Devil's Sight?
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And there is no flicker, because as said before, Combining Magical Effects applies Darkvision once to make the Darkness "as if it were" Dim Light for the character. They use Darkvision once and the Darkness (which definitely stays there due to "as if it were" but the mechanical effect/penalty for that character changes) is as if were Dim Light for the purposes of seeing.
If the darkness stays - which we all apparently agree on - then what's the conflict with Devil's Sight?
You have two different rules (Darkvision w/ Dim Light+Greyscale and Devil's Sight w/ see normally) applying to the same status (environmental Darkness, not the spell) at the same time (always). If you go to use Devil's Sight and Darkvision together to see in Darkness, those rules don't say on their own which applies over the other. You've taken it as a given that the player picks which is confirmed, so far, solely by Simultaneous Effects in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, which a participant (Farling) dropped on the first page of the thread.
And there is no flicker, because as said before, Combining Magical Effects applies Darkvision once to make the Darkness "as if it were" Dim Light for the character. They use Darkvision once and the Darkness (which definitely stays there due to "as if it were" but the mechanical effect/penalty for that character changes) is as if were Dim Light for the purposes of seeing.
If the darkness stays - which we all apparently agree on - then what's the conflict with Devil's Sight?
You have two different rules (Darkvision w/ Dim Light+Greyscale and Devil's Sight w/ see normally) applying to the same status (environmental Darkness, not the spell) at the same time (always). If you go to use Devil's Sight and Darkvision together to see in Darkness, those rules don't say on their own which applies over the other. You've taken it as a given that the player picks which is confirmed, so far, solely by Simultaneous Effects in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, which a participant (Farling) dropped on the first page of the thread.
Why do you assume one applies over the other? An effect does what it does unless there's an explicit exception mentioned, and no exception is mentioned in case of the other also being in efect. It's not a case of player picks which because they are applied at the same time. It's a case of player picks because the rule says "you can". If only one were in effect it'd still be a case of player picks whether it'd apply or not (not that there's any reason to pick the latter).
And there is no flicker, because as said before, Combining Magical Effects applies Darkvision once to make the Darkness "as if it were" Dim Light for the character. They use Darkvision once and the Darkness (which definitely stays there due to "as if it were" but the mechanical effect/penalty for that character changes) is as if were Dim Light for the purposes of seeing.
If the darkness stays - which we all apparently agree on - then what's the conflict with Devil's Sight?
You have two different rules (Darkvision w/ Dim Light+Greyscale and Devil's Sight w/ see normally) applying to the same status (environmental Darkness, not the spell) at the same time (always). If you go to use Devil's Sight and Darkvision together to see in Darkness, those rules don't say on their own which applies over the other. You've taken it as a given that the player picks which is confirmed, so far, solely by Simultaneous Effects in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, which a participant (Farling) dropped on the first page of the thread.
Why do you assume one applies over the other? An effect does what it does unless there's an explicit exception mentioned, and no exception is mentioned in case of the other also being in efect. It's not a case of player picks which because they are applied at the same time. It's a case of player picks because the rule says "you can". If only one were in effect it'd still be a case of player picks whether it'd apply or not (not that there's any reason to pick the latter).
Because you have to pick whether you see with Darkvision as Dim or Devil's Sight as "Normal" - those are two different things applying to the same thing. What is so difficult to understand about that? Do you apply greyscale Dim under Darkvision or Normal under Devil's Sight. Those are two distinct things applied to the same exact thing - how you character sees in Darkness. And I make the "can" point in the OP!! But the thing is, what if someone says "both" like all of you have been? How do you see "both" Dim Light and Normal, huh? Which "can" they apply? And if there's only one in effect, then we don't need any additional rules because you're just follow the conditions provided in one.
Also the point "It's not a case of player picks which because they are applied at the same time. It's a case of player picks because the rule says "you can". " - that's likely why Xanathar's included that page of clarifications, dont you think? Consider there's no rule that actually specifies what "can" means... Just because you "can" doesn't mean you "may" - think back to grade school; how many teacher's said that to you? Can simply implies you have the capacity. May says you're actually allowed, so it's a wash without the clarification.
Because you have to pick whether you see with Darkvision as Dim or Devil's Sight as "Normal" - those are two different things applying to the same thing. What is so difficult to understand about that?
So pick? What's so difficult to understand about that? The point is still that one doesn't prevent the other.
Also, consider you're outside at night, in darkness. You have both Darkvision and Devil's Sight. Someone next to you lights a torch. How do you see? Assuming you choose to see as well as possible, you see 20ft out as normal, bright light because that's what it is; you see 20 to 40ft out as if it were bright light, because it's actually dim and Darkvision lets you see that as if bright (while Devil's Sight doesn't help here); and you see 40 to 120 ft out as bright light/normal thanks to Devil's Sight. Past 120ft you just see in darkness. You could choose to use Darkvision in the 40 to 60 ft area instead of Devil's Sight, but there's little point in that. If you want to see as well as possible, you use both abilities in a situation like this.
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Because you have to pick whether you see with Darkvision as Dim or Devil's Sight as "Normal" - those are two different things applying to the same thing. What is so difficult to understand about that?
So pick? What's so difficult to understand about that? The point is still that one doesn't prevent the other.
Also, consider you're outside at night, in darkness. You have both Darkvision and Devil's Sight. Someone next to you lights a torch. How do you see? Assuming you choose to see as well as possible, you see 20ft out as normal, bright light because that's what it is; you see 20 to 40ft out as if it were bright light, because it's actually dim and Darkvision lets you see that as if bright (while Devil's Sight doesn't help here); and you see 40 to 120 ft out as bright light/normal thanks to Devil's Sight. Past 120ft you just see in darkness. You could choose to use Darkvision in the 40 to 60 ft area instead of Devil's Sight, but there's little point in that. If you want to see as well as possible, you use both abilities in a situation like this.
I'm glad you finally agree you would have to pick Devil's Sight over instead of Darkvision to see proper normally at night!
Because you have to pick whether you see with Darkvision as Dim or Devil's Sight as "Normal" - those are two different things applying to the same thing. What is so difficult to understand about that?
So pick? What's so difficult to understand about that? The point is still that one doesn't prevent the other.
Also, consider you're outside at night, in darkness. You have both Darkvision and Devil's Sight. Someone next to you lights a torch. How do you see? Assuming you choose to see as well as possible, you see 20ft out as normal, bright light because that's what it is; you see 20 to 40ft out as if it were bright light, because it's actually dim and Darkvision lets you see that as if bright (while Devil's Sight doesn't help here); and you see 40 to 120 ft out as bright light/normal thanks to Devil's Sight. Past 120ft you just see in darkness. You could choose to use Darkvision in the 40 to 60 ft area instead of Devil's Sight, but there's little point in that. If you want to see as well as possible, you use both abilities in a situation like this.
I'm glad you finally agree you would have to pick Devil's Sight over instead of Darkvision to see proper normally at night!
o7
You don't seem to realize that getting to pick one over the other doesn't imply you can't use both, not even that you can't use both at the same time, or that this means Simultaneous Effects is not relevant. There is no conflict, despite what your OP claims.
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Because you have to pick whether you see with Darkvision as Dim or Devil's Sight as "Normal" - those are two different things applying to the same thing. What is so difficult to understand about that?
So pick? What's so difficult to understand about that? The point is still that one doesn't prevent the other.
Also, consider you're outside at night, in darkness. You have both Darkvision and Devil's Sight. Someone next to you lights a torch. How do you see? Assuming you choose to see as well as possible, you see 20ft out as normal, bright light because that's what it is; you see 20 to 40ft out as if it were bright light, because it's actually dim and Darkvision lets you see that as if bright (while Devil's Sight doesn't help here); and you see 40 to 120 ft out as bright light/normal thanks to Devil's Sight. Past 120ft you just see in darkness. You could choose to use Darkvision in the 40 to 60 ft area instead of Devil's Sight, but there's little point in that. If you want to see as well as possible, you use both abilities in a situation like this.
I'm glad you finally agree you would have to pick Devil's Sight over instead of Darkvision to see proper normally at night!
o7
You don't seem to realize that getting to pick one over the other doesn't imply you can't use both, not even that you can't use both at the same time, or that this means Simultaneous Effects is not relevant. There is no conflict, despite what your OP claims.
You don't seem to realize that there are situations where you might have to pick "both" at the same time - like, depending on effective ranges, you could easily have several targets trying to hide in different illumination levels and/or being targeted by the same spell/attack in different illumination levels, like scorching rays or something. If you're using your Darkvision to see a character better in Dim Light (remove any penalties to Perception) but also are trying to target someone else attempting to hide in Darkness with Devil's Sight (to roll normally on/avoid penalties), then you have to declare which you're using and in what order. Which rule is in effect and how does that affect their ability to see. You can't just ignore one of the rules you're actively using. You already admitted you'd have to pick otherwise.
Thus Simultaneous Effects; declare Devil's Sight before Darkvision - then no conflict. Otherwise you have two different things happening to the same objects at the same time... aka conflict.
Because you have to pick whether you see with Darkvision as Dim or Devil's Sight as "Normal" - those are two different things applying to the same thing. What is so difficult to understand about that?
So pick? What's so difficult to understand about that? The point is still that one doesn't prevent the other.
Also, consider you're outside at night, in darkness. You have both Darkvision and Devil's Sight. Someone next to you lights a torch. How do you see? Assuming you choose to see as well as possible, you see 20ft out as normal, bright light because that's what it is; you see 20 to 40ft out as if it were bright light, because it's actually dim and Darkvision lets you see that as if bright (while Devil's Sight doesn't help here); and you see 40 to 120 ft out as bright light/normal thanks to Devil's Sight. Past 120ft you just see in darkness. You could choose to use Darkvision in the 40 to 60 ft area instead of Devil's Sight, but there's little point in that. If you want to see as well as possible, you use both abilities in a situation like this.
I'm glad you finally agree you would have to pick Devil's Sight over instead of Darkvision to see proper normally at night!
o7
You don't seem to realize that getting to pick one over the other doesn't imply you can't use both, not even that you can't use both at the same time, or that this means Simultaneous Effects is not relevant. There is no conflict, despite what your OP claims.
You don't seem to realize that there are situations where you might have to pick "both" at the same time - like, depending on effective ranges, you could easily have several targets trying to hide in different illumination levels and/or being targeted by the same spell/attack in different illumination levels, like scorching rays or something. If you're using your Darkvision to see a character better in Dim Light (remove any penalties to Perception) but also are trying to target someone else attempting to hide in Darkness with Devil's Sight (to roll normally on/avoid penalties), then you have to declare which you're using and in what order. Which rule is in effect and how does that affect their ability to see. You can't just ignore one of the rules you're actively using. You already admitted you'd have to pick otherwise.
Thus Simultaneous Effects; declare Devil's Sight before Darkvision - then no conflict. Otherwise you have two different things happening to the same objects at the same time... aka conflict.
The example in the post you quoted illustrates otherwise. There is no rule that says you can't use both at the same time, so you can, and neither rule prevents the other from also being used at the same time. In practice you might have to pick what that results in for different areas of lighting, that's all, and strictly speaking the rules don't require even that: seeing something as greyscale and colour at the same time doesn't work by our human standards, but if a DM decides that's possible in game they'd be well within the actual rules.
Because you have to pick whether you see with Darkvision as Dim or Devil's Sight as "Normal" - those are two different things applying to the same thing. What is so difficult to understand about that?
So pick? What's so difficult to understand about that? The point is still that one doesn't prevent the other.
Also, consider you're outside at night, in darkness. You have both Darkvision and Devil's Sight. Someone next to you lights a torch. How do you see? Assuming you choose to see as well as possible, you see 20ft out as normal, bright light because that's what it is; you see 20 to 40ft out as if it were bright light, because it's actually dim and Darkvision lets you see that as if bright (while Devil's Sight doesn't help here); and you see 40 to 120 ft out as bright light/normal thanks to Devil's Sight. Past 120ft you just see in darkness. You could choose to use Darkvision in the 40 to 60 ft area instead of Devil's Sight, but there's little point in that. If you want to see as well as possible, you use both abilities in a situation like this.
I'm glad you finally agree you would have to pick Devil's Sight over instead of Darkvision to see proper normally at night!
o7
You don't seem to realize that getting to pick one over the other doesn't imply you can't use both, not even that you can't use both at the same time, or that this means Simultaneous Effects is not relevant. There is no conflict, despite what your OP claims.
Exactly. That one is almost always better than the other has never been in question.
Typically - you have to be looking for something in actual Dim Light for Darkvision to outshine(heh heh) Devil's Sight. Otherwise its pretty obvious what you would want to pick. But like I've said before, they clearly wanted to ensure Darkvision has some benefit beyond what's offered by Devil's Sight so taking Darkvision elsewhere (like as a racial) doesn't become a waste of a feature if you pick up Devil's Sight.
And it was definitely never part of the question here, lol - they do different things so it just depends on what you trying to do (but again, that's typically going to be Devil's Sight). I was just drawing you guys into agreeing you would have to pick so I could then I could ask what happens when you try to use both at once?
"depending on effective ranges, you could easily have several targets trying to hide in different illumination levels and/or being targeted by the same spell/attack in different illumination levels, like scorching rays or something. If you're using your Darkvision to see a character better in Dim Light (remove any penalties to Perception) but also are trying to target someone else attempting to hide in Darkness with Devil's Sight (to roll normally on/avoid penalties), then you have to declare which you're using and in what order."
Note - simply making an attack in Dim Light or as if it were Dim Light isn't an issue on its own obviously. But trying to cast a spell after you detected your target with one of the abilities (darkvision v devil's sight) over the other could be a factor.
And it was definitely never part of the question here, lol - they do different things so it just depends on what you trying to do (but again, that's typically going to be Devil's Sight). I was just drawing you guys into agreeing you would have to pick so I could then I could ask what happens when you try to use both at once?
"depending on effective ranges, you could easily have several targets trying to hide in different illumination levels and/or being targeted by the same spell/attack in different illumination levels, like scorching rays or something. If you're using your Darkvision to see a character better in Dim Light (remove any penalties to Perception) but also are trying to target someone else attempting to hide in Darkness with Devil's Sight (to roll normally on/avoid penalties), then you have to declare which you're using and in what order."
OPE!
I explained already what happens (or can happen, anyway) when you use (there is no try, you just do) both at once. Regarding your statement in italics, please show us the rule that says you have to declare which you are using. Furthermore, if you have to declare in what order you're using them that means you're using both - if you can only use one there is no order - so which is it? Do you have to declare which, or do you have to declare the order? If the latter, please also show us the rule that says the order makes any kind of difference, since by their own rules neither prevents the other.
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And it was definitely never part of the question here, lol - they do different things so it just depends on what you trying to do (but again, that's typically going to be Devil's Sight). I was just drawing you guys into agreeing you would have to pick so I could then I could ask what happens when you try to use both at once?
"depending on effective ranges, you could easily have several targets trying to hide in different illumination levels and/or being targeted by the same spell/attack in different illumination levels, like scorching rays or something. If you're using your Darkvision to see a character better in Dim Light (remove any penalties to Perception) but also are trying to target someone else attempting to hide in Darkness with Devil's Sight (to roll normally on/avoid penalties), then you have to declare which you're using and in what order."
OPE!
I explained already what happens (or can happen, anyway) when you use (there is no try, you just do) both at once. Regarding your statement in italics, please show us the rule that says you have to declare which you are using. Furthermore, if you have to declare in what order you're using them that means you're using both - if you can only use one there is no order - so which is it? Do you have to declare which, or do you have to declare the order? If the latter, please also show us the rule that says the order makes any kind of difference, since by their own rules neither prevents the other.
I explained already what happens (or can happen, anyway) when you use (there is no try, you just do) both at once. Yea, you reiterated the rules as presented which also don't say to do it the way you're saying either. Regardless of whether you agree or not, that's what the OP is all about.
Regarding your statement in italics, please show us the rule that says you have to declare which you are using. Regarding your statement in italics, please show us the rule that says you have to declare which you are using. There is nothing in the rules about when you try to use two different rules to do two different things to the same thing at the same time. Again, the whole point of the OP.
Furthermore, if you have to declare in what order you're using them that means you're using both - if you can only use one there is no order - so which is it? Do you have to declare which, or do you have to declare the order? If the latter, please also show us the rule that says the order makes any kind of difference, since by their own rules neither prevents the other. Again, that's the point of the OP. There is nothing in those rules, by themselves, that dictates one way or the other. However, Simultaneous Effects closes the gap if you are trying to use both effects at once.
If you're not trying to use both effects at once, then you just use them as is. We can 100% assume a rule is never written to conflict with itself.
Otherwise, we would simply need clarification on whether "can" truly means you can choose as a player to not use the ability at all (basically as if Darkvision as a sense was a spell they could choose not use/cast) - I half mention that in the OP, but I would definitely appreciate an excerpt from the rules that says that's what "can" in rules means (or Sage Advice/Errata, other rules that wouldn't work if it didn't work that way, etc)
Again, the relationship between Darkvision and Devil's Sight isn't as important to me as what OTHER rules might be out there which exist solely to clarify potential/goofy interpretations like the ones I presented in this thread - I think they're dumb, difficult, and annoying too (my arguments) but where's the other rules that put them down? Like what if someone is just having a bad day and being difficult? What other rules are there that cut the argument down? I know the PHB, XGtE, and the DMG begin with Core or General rules which nuke weird interpretations of other more specific rules and that there has been Campaign books as well as published errata/sage advice which address specific arguments directly. These are the things I was looking for here - not to try to convince the community the rules have all these crazy interpretations which might be how the authors meant the game should be played.
I agree with and posted virtually all the arguments you made (which honestly wasn't many) within the OP so we wouldn't have to go back and forth on interpreting the rules which might conflict (but are played everyday in sessions around the world with no problems nonetheless!) but rather identify rules which address potential conflicts in general. Note that I did not acknowledge what I had seen as the most obvious assumptions/interpretations about the rules (like Darkvision doesn't actually change the ambient light level for the environment) since the rest of the game would come apart if that was true. Most of the rules would lose all meaning and yet people went for even that hole in the OP instead of looking for clarifying rules which back their statements (which would have had them re-itering my OP back to me, thus removing their point - yet that hasn't stopped you)
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Right, just like the points you make (I'm making your point back to you and you call it gibberish). You say Darkness is Darkness whether you see it, stand in it, don't see it, etc and none of the rules impact that or react to it. Usually following it up with rules that depend on darkness to do their thing (and make it look different, even "as if it were" something else)... You dress your language up but the rationale is still self-defeating.
1 - It's not nonsense; you need Simultaneous Effects because Darkvision and Devil's Sight treat the same factor differently at the same time. The rules Darkvision and Devil's Sight alone do not dictate who picks which effect. Its that simple.
2 - so you have no rebuttal here either, got it... I guess that means my point stands since you're no arbiter of anything I'm aware of besides your personal opinion, which I can take or leave as readily as you have mine. It's whatever.
3 - They did. With Simultaneous Effects in Xanathar's Guide to Everything you just said was moot. So what exactly are you arguing??
a) "Seeing darkness" is a verb combined with a noun. "Darkness" is just the noun. There is no logical rationale whatsoever to consider them to be the same thing. And saying that "arguing the meaning of words is somewhat futile" is a completely bizarro thing to say when arguing the meaning of words is all we do here. What argument are you making that disregards the meaning of words?
1) Have you properly read Simultaneous effects? The gist of it, as a reminder, is "... if two effects occur [at the end of a player character’s turn] at the same time, the [player] person controlling the character they happen to decides which of the two effects happens first." In other words, they still both happen unless the first one prevents the second from happening. Since Darkvision doesn't prevent Devil's Sight and Devil's Sight doesn't prevent Darkvision, they still both happen. The Simultaneous Effects rule is moot in this case. Which is not a problem in any way, since both Darkvision and Devil's Sight say you can do something, not that something absolutely must happen. The player decides if one, neither or both apply, based on nothing more than only the rules for Darkvision and Devil's Sight and only those rules.
2) See above, still nonsense.
3) That Simultaneous Effects is moot, based on what that rule literally says, and that that's not an issue, because of what the rules for Darkvision and Devil's Sight literally say.
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No projection required. At no point have you or anyone else stepped up to say, "Yes this is exactly how I interpret the RAW." As a matter of fact you have repeatedly asserted that you don't, and interpret it just like we do. The only thing this thread is about now is you desperately trying to make the conflict in the rules plausible while others point out that it isn't.
Anyway, it is time for me to turn my attention to more constructive endeavors and leave this thread behind. Good luck everyone :)
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actually no - I've said in several places I play the say way you all are suggesting. And again, I must assume you're projecting when you say "the only thing this thread is about now is you desperately trying to make the conflict" and then just tucked "in the rules plausible while others point out that it isn't." to make it about me since that's exactly what you did.
You have yet to address what you do when you have two separate rules for the same factor (Darkness) which do different things (Dim Light + Greyscale or See Normally) at the same time (Always), so good luck to you to!
In regards to the blindsight; we're making the same point to someone else's comment.
I've said I see your point, but always followed up with "but where's the rule that helps you determine when you have two different effects (Darkvision OR Devil's Sight OR both) on the same thing, at the same time. Simultaneous Effects. That's it. No where in the rules for light/illumination levels, devil's sight, or darkvision says which you may effect you may pick at a given time. According to you, any and all, at the same time. That means Darkness could appear as Darkness, Dim Light, or Normal/Bright Light to your character with the abilities.
In regards to saying the same thing about Darkness just being Darkness and us making the same point - this is why we need additional rules to clarify how different rules play together. Otherwise, it's all the same and you have no proper distinction between one condition and the next. Its that simple.
Except we have additional words which reference "keywords" like we do in Combining Magical Effects which I referenced before. That rule says that they have to have the same language.
You're cherry picking, because like I said there, under Combining Magical Effects, Game Effects only apply once.
it says "without having to rely on sight" whereas Darkvision and Devil's Sight explicitely say "See/Seeing in/as if it were" - It doesn't say how it "looks" at all because the sense doesn't affect how things "look" but rather whether you can perceive them, which can be done w/ sound, smell, touch, or magical senses... It goes on to say:
Creatures without eyes, such as grimlocks and gray oozes, typically have this special sense, as do creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons.If a monster is naturally blind, it has a parenthetical note to this effect, indicating that the radius of its blindsight defines the maximum range of its perception.
So it does include limitations/descriptions of the sense. Counter to your statement, RAW.
How is "Neither Darkvision nor Devil's sight change the condition of darkness, but rather, for that character, change the penalties associated with the condition of darkness." any different than "changes the mechanical effect of darkness for the character"???
And there is no flicker, because as said before, Combining Magical Effects applies Darkvision once to make the Darkness "as if it were" Dim Light for the character. They use Darkvision once and the Darkness (which definitely stays there due to "as if it were" but the mechanical effect/penalty for that character changes) is as if were Dim Light for the purposes of seeing.
And none of your interpretations satisfy the OP which is most simply asking: What rules determine which effect applies when you have two different effects on the same condition (or target/entity/whatever) at the same time.
I included all the hub-bub on interpretation in the OP because I assumed people would target that first when I'm looking for rules which must exist outside of the rules in question.
There is no general rule for that. There doesn't have to be, because it would depend on the effects. If a magical item places two different effects on me when I put it on, they both apply as long as nothing in the rules for the item or the effects says otherwise. It's exactly the same for a character with both Darkvision and Devil's Sight in darkness. They both apply, since nothing in their rules says otherwise.
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If the darkness stays - which we all apparently agree on - then what's the conflict with Devil's Sight?
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You have two different rules (Darkvision w/ Dim Light+Greyscale and Devil's Sight w/ see normally) applying to the same status (environmental Darkness, not the spell) at the same time (always). If you go to use Devil's Sight and Darkvision together to see in Darkness, those rules don't say on their own which applies over the other. You've taken it as a given that the player picks which is confirmed, so far, solely by Simultaneous Effects in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, which a participant (Farling) dropped on the first page of the thread.
Why do you assume one applies over the other? An effect does what it does unless there's an explicit exception mentioned, and no exception is mentioned in case of the other also being in efect. It's not a case of player picks which because they are applied at the same time. It's a case of player picks because the rule says "you can". If only one were in effect it'd still be a case of player picks whether it'd apply or not (not that there's any reason to pick the latter).
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Because you have to pick whether you see with Darkvision as Dim or Devil's Sight as "Normal" - those are two different things applying to the same thing. What is so difficult to understand about that? Do you apply greyscale Dim under Darkvision or Normal under Devil's Sight. Those are two distinct things applied to the same exact thing - how you character sees in Darkness. And I make the "can" point in the OP!! But the thing is, what if someone says "both" like all of you have been? How do you see "both" Dim Light and Normal, huh? Which "can" they apply? And if there's only one in effect, then we don't need any additional rules because you're just follow the conditions provided in one.
Also the point "It's not a case of player picks which because they are applied at the same time. It's a case of player picks because the rule says "you can". " - that's likely why Xanathar's included that page of clarifications, dont you think? Consider there's no rule that actually specifies what "can" means... Just because you "can" doesn't mean you "may" - think back to grade school; how many teacher's said that to you? Can simply implies you have the capacity. May says you're actually allowed, so it's a wash without the clarification.
So pick? What's so difficult to understand about that? The point is still that one doesn't prevent the other.
Also, consider you're outside at night, in darkness. You have both Darkvision and Devil's Sight. Someone next to you lights a torch. How do you see? Assuming you choose to see as well as possible, you see 20ft out as normal, bright light because that's what it is; you see 20 to 40ft out as if it were bright light, because it's actually dim and Darkvision lets you see that as if bright (while Devil's Sight doesn't help here); and you see 40 to 120 ft out as bright light/normal thanks to Devil's Sight. Past 120ft you just see in darkness. You could choose to use Darkvision in the 40 to 60 ft area instead of Devil's Sight, but there's little point in that. If you want to see as well as possible, you use both abilities in a situation like this.
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I'm glad you finally agree you would have to pick Devil's Sight
overinstead of Darkvision to seepropernormally at night!o7
You don't seem to realize that getting to pick one over the other doesn't imply you can't use both, not even that you can't use both at the same time, or that this means Simultaneous Effects is not relevant. There is no conflict, despite what your OP claims.
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You don't seem to realize that there are situations where you might have to pick "both" at the same time - like, depending on effective ranges, you could easily have several targets trying to hide in different illumination levels and/or being targeted by the same spell/attack in different illumination levels, like scorching rays or something. If you're using your Darkvision to see a character better in Dim Light (remove any penalties to Perception) but also are trying to target someone else attempting to hide in Darkness with Devil's Sight (to roll normally on/avoid penalties), then you have to declare which you're using and in what order. Which rule is in effect and how does that affect their ability to see. You can't just ignore one of the rules you're actively using. You already admitted you'd have to pick otherwise.
Thus Simultaneous Effects; declare Devil's Sight before Darkvision - then no conflict. Otherwise you have two different things happening to the same objects at the same time... aka conflict.
The example in the post you quoted illustrates otherwise. There is no rule that says you can't use both at the same time, so you can, and neither rule prevents the other from also being used at the same time. In practice you might have to pick what that results in for different areas of lighting, that's all, and strictly speaking the rules don't require even that: seeing something as greyscale and colour at the same time doesn't work by our human standards, but if a DM decides that's possible in game they'd be well within the actual rules.
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Typically - you have to be looking for something in actual Dim Light for Darkvision to outshine (heh heh) Devil's Sight. Otherwise its pretty obvious what you would want to pick. But like I've said before, they clearly wanted to ensure Darkvision has some benefit beyond what's offered by Devil's Sight so taking Darkvision elsewhere (like as a racial) doesn't become a waste of a feature if you pick up Devil's Sight.
And it was definitely never part of the question here, lol - they do different things so it just depends on what you trying to do (but again, that's typically going to be Devil's Sight). I was just drawing you guys into agreeing you would have to pick so I could then I could ask what happens when you try to use both at once?
"depending on effective ranges, you could easily have several targets trying to hide in different illumination levels and/or being targeted by the same spell/attack in different illumination levels, like scorching rays or something. If you're using your Darkvision to see a character better in Dim Light (remove any penalties to Perception) but also are trying to target someone else attempting to hide in Darkness with Devil's Sight (to roll normally on/avoid penalties), then you have to declare which you're using and in what order."
OPE!
Note - simply making an attack in Dim Light or as if it were Dim Light isn't an issue on its own obviously. But trying to cast a spell after you detected your target with one of the abilities (darkvision v devil's sight) over the other could be a factor.
I explained already what happens (or can happen, anyway) when you use (there is no try, you just do) both at once. Regarding your statement in italics, please show us the rule that says you have to declare which you are using. Furthermore, if you have to declare in what order you're using them that means you're using both - if you can only use one there is no order - so which is it? Do you have to declare which, or do you have to declare the order? If the latter, please also show us the rule that says the order makes any kind of difference, since by their own rules neither prevents the other.
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I explained already what happens (or can happen, anyway) when you use (there is no try, you just do) both at once.
Yea, you reiterated the rules as presented which also don't say to do it the way you're saying either. Regardless of whether you agree or not, that's what the OP is all about.
Regarding your statement in italics, please show us the rule that says you have to declare which you are using. Regarding your statement in italics, please show us the rule that says you have to declare which you are using.
There is nothing in the rules about when you try to use two different rules to do two different things to the same thing at the same time. Again, the whole point of the OP.
Furthermore, if you have to declare in what order you're using them that means you're using both - if you can only use one there is no order - so which is it? Do you have to declare which, or do you have to declare the order? If the latter, please also show us the rule that says the order makes any kind of difference, since by their own rules neither prevents the other.
Again, that's the point of the OP. There is nothing in those rules, by themselves, that dictates one way or the other. However, Simultaneous Effects closes the gap if you are trying to use both effects at once.
If you're not trying to use both effects at once, then you just use them as is. We can 100% assume a rule is never written to conflict with itself.
Otherwise, we would simply need clarification on whether "can" truly means you can choose as a player to not use the ability at all (basically as if Darkvision as a sense was a spell they could choose not use/cast) - I half mention that in the OP, but I would definitely appreciate an excerpt from the rules that says that's what "can" in rules means (or Sage Advice/Errata, other rules that wouldn't work if it didn't work that way, etc)
Again, the relationship between Darkvision and Devil's Sight isn't as important to me as what OTHER rules might be out there which exist solely to clarify potential/goofy interpretations like the ones I presented in this thread - I think they're dumb, difficult, and annoying too (my arguments) but where's the other rules that put them down? Like what if someone is just having a bad day and being difficult? What other rules are there that cut the argument down? I know the PHB, XGtE, and the DMG begin with Core or General rules which nuke weird interpretations of other more specific rules and that there has been Campaign books as well as published errata/sage advice which address specific arguments directly. These are the things I was looking for here - not to try to convince the community the rules have all these crazy interpretations which might be how the authors meant the game should be played.
I agree with and posted virtually all the arguments you made (which honestly wasn't many) within the OP so we wouldn't have to go back and forth on interpreting the rules which might conflict (but are played everyday in sessions around the world with no problems nonetheless!) but rather identify rules which address potential conflicts in general. Note that I did not acknowledge what I had seen as the most obvious assumptions/interpretations about the rules (like Darkvision doesn't actually change the ambient light level for the environment) since the rest of the game would come apart if that was true. Most of the rules would lose all meaning and yet people went for even that hole in the OP instead of looking for clarifying rules which back their statements (which would have had them re-itering my OP back to me, thus removing their point - yet that hasn't stopped you)