Could you respond to my previous question? Could you read and tell me how you understand Tools Required. I will provide it below
Tools Required
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way. See chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for descriptions of these tools.
After you gain the Infuse Item feature at 2nd level, you can also use any item bearing one of your infusions as a spellcasting focus.
It is almost like either just this way of thinking is wrong or the entire community and even the developers have been wrong about the rules for years.
there are lots of times where a massive portion of the community was wrong or even having the designers being wrong. Hence lots of errata.
That being said Brian avery's stance dose seem to be missing a clear rules hierarchy. This stance leads to alot of problematic interpretations. (does any then allow bypassing spells known rules?.... I think not)I still hold to the bad wording in the material component section as vague but I would never argue with a dm about it but it seems like one of the many deliberate openings to allow a dm to run easy mode or hard mode. ( I would only use it for theory crafting in groups that already choose that interpretation.) remember the only real rule wotc stands by is "rulings not rules."
By RAW the wording of the feat allows for casting spells with a focus even if they don;t have M as a component.
Here's an example with using the Artificer class since you are hung up on the Tools Required rule which doesn't have to apply.
A Rogue takes the Artificer Initiate feat and selects Cooking Utensils for his artisan's tools and decides to cast Catapult from the Artificer's spell list as his choice of any spell.
Since the Artificer class isn't involved this time the Tools Required rule isn't in play.
The Rogue can still use the Cooking Utensils to cast Catapult even though that spell also doesn't have M as a component.
How are all these classes casting spells with a focus when the spells they're casting don't have M as a component?
Let me copy/paste the 3rd bullet point of the feat and highlight it in green this time.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Let's walk through the Rogue's example.
He gets to choose his artisan's tools and chooses Cooking Utensils.
He gets to cast any spell and chooses Catapult.
The spell only has one limitation listed in the 3rd bullet point, it has to be a spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability. Luckily for the Rogue he choose the Catapult spell from the Artificer's spell list which qualifies as a spell with INT as its spellcasting ability.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Well, even your example shows logical holes. You again are choosing proficiency in a tool in which your example already claimed proficiency.
Again, You avoided answering direct simple questions. What does the part of Tools Required in parentheses do? Is it in the feat?
That text would be required for the feat to actually change the components of the spell. It is the only text in them game that does so. The spell still has its more specific requirements than the feat. It says no to M. Still. That is still more specific than the feat. Because the feat STILL doesn’t change the spell’s components. Because a specific rule only applies over the general rule that it changes and the one you keep pointing to only changes what you can use as a focus, and not what spells use one.
Do any of the class features allow you to use a focus to cast any spell with that focus?
Or do the general rules for spellcasting apply and you can only cast spells that with a focus that require a M component?
Is the feat I am referencing allow me to use my focus to cast any spell with my focus?
The answer to the 1st question is no.
The answer to the 2nd question is yes.
The answer to the 3rd question is yes.
This means none of you can use your focus to cast spells that don't have a M component.
But I can, I have a feat that says I can use my focus to cast any spell that has INT for its spellcasting focus, that even means spells that don't have M for a component.
It says I can cast cleric spells with my focus. Cure wounds is a cleric spell. It may not be as broad a spell list as the feat works on, but it works the same way. So... First question: YES (just limited by class, nothing else).
Clerics have a feature that specifically says I can use my focus to cast cleric spells, that even means spells that don't have M for a component.
(Gods, using his words against him would be easier if there weren't so much awkward phrasing and grammatical errors).
Do any of the class features allow you to use a focus to cast any spell with that focus?
Or do the general rules for spellcasting apply and you can only cast spells that with a focus that require a M component?
Is the feat I am referencing allow me to use my focus to cast any spell with my focus?
The answer to the 1st question is no.
The answer to the 2nd question is yes.
The answer to the 3rd question is yes.
This means none of you can use your focus to cast spells that don't have a M component.
But I can, I have a feat that says I can use my focus to cast any spell that has INT for its spellcasting focus, that even means spells that don't have M for a component.
It says I can cast cleric spells with my focus. Cure wounds is a cleric spell. It may not be as broad a spell list as the feat works on, but it works the same way. So... First question: YES (just limited by class, nothing else).
Clerics have a feature that specifically says I can use my focus to cast cleric spells, that even means spells that don't have M for a component.
(Gods, using his words against him would be easier if there weren't so much awkward phrasing and grammatical errors).
Or if it was free of factual errors and internally consistent. The post if his you quoted is neither.
In it he claims the focus granted by Artificer Initiate can be used to cast any spell at all in his answer to his third question. This is incorrect, it is limited to spells that use Intelligence as their spellcasting modifier. The Artificer Initiate focus cannot be used to cast spells based off of Wisdom, or Charisma, or anything else.
Later in the same post he mentions that the focus granted by Artificer Initiate is restricted to spells that use Intelligence as their spellcasting modifier. This is inconsistent with his earlier claim that the Artificer Initiate focus can be used with any spell.
I don't want to change the components of any spell and don't need to, I have in fact posted before that the the components of Magic Missile remain the same, V,S.
The exact phrasing of the third bullet point actually does allow me to choose any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability. Magic Missile is just such a spell and by choosing it the strange situation arises that the feat allows me to use a focus to cast a spell with only V,S components.
This is not because I say so. This is because the feat says so.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
You claimed all along that the general rule for using a focus is that it fills the need for M components.
I claimed the specific and exact wording of the third bullet feat allows me to use a focus to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
The somewhat unique thing the rules allow anyone to do if they choose this feat is use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't have an M component.
All casters from all the classes you mentioned before from Bard to Wizard have to follow that general rule and use their particular focus to replace the M component.
Anyone who takes the Artificer Initiate feat can apply the third bullet point and cast spells that don't have a M component so long as they follow the rules and conditions laid out by that feat.
They allow for my example of using Alchemist's Supplies to cast Magic Missile even though it doesn't have any M component.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
So then that’s fine. You win. your game can run with this interaction, which — as was pointed out a long time ago, isn’t even the best way to build a nuclear wizard.
The rest of us will just agree that the rules work as they’re written, and you can just go about your business.
No need to convince us. You won’t because the evidence isn’t in your favor. Unless you’re going to engage in the conversation, you aren’t really adding anything.
Again, you still couldn’t answer the two questions I asked directly: What does the text in parentheses within Tools Required do? Does it or anything like it exist in the feat that would let a spell without M components use a focus? I’m looking for a statement of that. Not an implication.
I don't win because I was never trying to win anything, just pointing out that by RAW and specific beats general what is possible for anyone to do with this feat.
The general rule of using a focus to supply the M component of a spell is circumvented by the specific wording of this feat to use a focus to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
And by sticking to RAW and not engaging in RAI or other arguments we are left to follow the exact wording of the feat.
I have answered questions and people either don't read the answers or ignore them, sometimes they even try to change or misquote me.
Most of what I've posted is just the RAW or specific beats general rule and can be found in the rule books.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The third point of the [feat]Artificer Initiate[/feat] Feat says "You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability." So it can act as a spellcasting focus.
That general rule about when you can use a spellcasting focus is beaten by the specific rule in the third bullet point of the feat which allows me to use the focus to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
I choose Alchemist's Supplies and choose to cast Magic Missile with them.
Because of this weird, but specific scenario I just used a feat's specific wording to circumvent the general rule and thus have done the impossible. I have used the RAW to use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't even have a M component.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
But if the spell doesn't need a material component then you don't need a spell casting focus. SO the third line from Artificer initiate would be irrelevant for magic missile it doesn't require a M component. Also the feat doesn't say it removes the need to verbal and somatic components it just says you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
The Initiate feat doesn't REPLACE the other parts that are needed in that spell. It doesn't make it so I can cast a magic missile in a silence spell or if my hands were bound since magic missile REQUIRES a Verbal and somatic components to cast it. All it says is "Hey you want to use your spork as a focus for say Fireball instead of using bat guano for the spells Material component, you can do that, BUT you also still need to wave your hand around for the somatic part and still speak the spells verbal for the verbal part.
Because of this weird, but specific scenario I just used a feat's specific wording to circumvent the general rule and thus have done the impossible. I have used the RAW to use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't even have a M component.
No you haven't, yo have just decided what outcome you want and then decided to ignore all rules on the subject and just do what you wanted to do.
Honestly if you want MM to do more damage and are fine ignoring the rules to do so then why not just homebrew an item that gives a +5 (or whatever number you'd like) to the MM damage roll and be done with it?
You are right, I don't need to use the focus to cast the spell, but I can use the focus to cast the spell because the feat allows me to if I so choose.
It's a choice the feat provides me. I could cast it without the focus because Magic Missile still only needs V,S. But I could also choose to cast it with the focus because that's a choice the feat allows me.
And you are right again, if I am within the area of effect of a silence spell I can't provide the V and if my hands are bound I can't provide the S.
But if I am not silenced by any means, and my arms and hands are free to use (not tied or bound) and I can provide the V and the S then I can use the Alchemist's Supplies to cast Magic Missile so long as it uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
In my example I had one hand free to supply the S component and the other hand was holding the Alchemist's Supplies.
(Notice how I'm a stickler for following the rules. Always careful to not add my two cents to the conversation and join the RAI discussion. I simply quote the specific beats general rule and continue to stay within the confines of RAW. Most of what I posted has been copy/pasted from the rulebook, other times I have shortened it here or there for brevity's sake.)
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Could you respond to my previous question? Could you read and tell me how you understand Tools Required. I will provide it below
Specifically, what does the part in parentheses do? Is that present in the feat?
there are lots of times where a massive portion of the community was wrong or even having the designers being wrong. Hence lots of errata.
That being said Brian avery's stance dose seem to be missing a clear rules hierarchy. This stance leads to alot of problematic interpretations. (does any then allow bypassing spells known rules?.... I think not)I still hold to the bad wording in the material component section as vague but I would never argue with a dm about it but it seems like one of the many deliberate openings to allow a dm to run easy mode or hard mode. ( I would only use it for theory crafting in groups that already choose that interpretation.) remember the only real rule wotc stands by is "rulings not rules."
By RAW the wording of the feat allows for casting spells with a focus even if they don;t have M as a component.
Here's an example with using the Artificer class since you are hung up on the Tools Required rule which doesn't have to apply.
A Rogue takes the Artificer Initiate feat and selects Cooking Utensils for his artisan's tools and decides to cast Catapult from the Artificer's spell list as his choice of any spell.
Since the Artificer class isn't involved this time the Tools Required rule isn't in play.
The Rogue can still use the Cooking Utensils to cast Catapult even though that spell also doesn't have M as a component.
How are all these classes casting spells with a focus when the spells they're casting don't have M as a component?
Let me copy/paste the 3rd bullet point of the feat and highlight it in green this time.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Let's walk through the Rogue's example.
He gets to choose his artisan's tools and chooses Cooking Utensils.
He gets to cast any spell and chooses Catapult.
The spell only has one limitation listed in the 3rd bullet point, it has to be a spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability. Luckily for the Rogue he choose the Catapult spell from the Artificer's spell list which qualifies as a spell with INT as its spellcasting ability.
Well, even your example shows logical holes. You again are choosing proficiency in a tool in which your example already claimed proficiency.
Again, You avoided answering direct simple questions. What does the part of Tools Required in parentheses do? Is it in the feat?
That text would be required for the feat to actually change the components of the spell. It is the only text in them game that does so. The spell still has its more specific requirements than the feat. It says no to M. Still. That is still more specific than the feat. Because the feat STILL doesn’t change the spell’s components. Because a specific rule only applies over the general rule that it changes and the one you keep pointing to only changes what you can use as a focus, and not what spells use one.
It says I can cast cleric spells with my focus. Cure wounds is a cleric spell. It may not be as broad a spell list as the feat works on, but it works the same way. So... First question: YES (just limited by class, nothing else).
Clerics have a feature that specifically says I can use my focus to cast cleric spells, that even means spells that don't have M for a component.
(Gods, using his words against him would be easier if there weren't so much awkward phrasing and grammatical errors).
Or if it was free of factual errors and internally consistent. The post if his you quoted is neither.
In it he claims the focus granted by Artificer Initiate can be used to cast any spell at all in his answer to his third question. This is incorrect, it is limited to spells that use Intelligence as their spellcasting modifier. The Artificer Initiate focus cannot be used to cast spells based off of Wisdom, or Charisma, or anything else.
Later in the same post he mentions that the focus granted by Artificer Initiate is restricted to spells that use Intelligence as their spellcasting modifier. This is inconsistent with his earlier claim that the Artificer Initiate focus can be used with any spell.
WolfOfTheBees
I don't want to change the components of any spell and don't need to, I have in fact posted before that the the components of Magic Missile remain the same, V,S.
The exact phrasing of the third bullet point actually does allow me to choose any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability. Magic Missile is just such a spell and by choosing it the strange situation arises that the feat allows me to use a focus to cast a spell with only V,S components.
This is not because I say so. This is because the feat says so.
The exact phrasing of the feat allows you to ignore rules that it doesn’t make changes to? Is that what you’re saying?
Because that is exactly NOT how exceptions in this game work. Read that section again too.
DxJxC
You claimed all along that the general rule for using a focus is that it fills the need for M components.
I claimed the specific and exact wording of the third bullet feat allows me to use a focus to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
The somewhat unique thing the rules allow anyone to do if they choose this feat is use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't have an M component.
All casters from all the classes you mentioned before from Bard to Wizard have to follow that general rule and use their particular focus to replace the M component.
Anyone who takes the Artificer Initiate feat can apply the third bullet point and cast spells that don't have a M component so long as they follow the rules and conditions laid out by that feat.
They allow for my example of using Alchemist's Supplies to cast Magic Missile even though it doesn't have any M component.
So then that’s fine. You win. your game can run with this interaction, which — as was pointed out a long time ago, isn’t even the best way to build a nuclear wizard.
The rest of us will just agree that the rules work as they’re written, and you can just go about your business.
No need to convince us. You won’t because the evidence isn’t in your favor. Unless you’re going to engage in the conversation, you aren’t really adding anything.
Again, you still couldn’t answer the two questions I asked directly: What does the text in parentheses within Tools Required do? Does it or anything like it exist in the feat that would let a spell without M components use a focus? I’m looking for a statement of that. Not an implication.
I don't win because I was never trying to win anything, just pointing out that by RAW and specific beats general what is possible for anyone to do with this feat.
The general rule of using a focus to supply the M component of a spell is circumvented by the specific wording of this feat to use a focus to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
And by sticking to RAW and not engaging in RAI or other arguments we are left to follow the exact wording of the feat.
I have answered questions and people either don't read the answers or ignore them, sometimes they even try to change or misquote me.
Most of what I've posted is just the RAW or specific beats general rule and can be found in the rule books.
The third point of the [feat]Artificer Initiate[/feat] Feat says "You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability." So it can act as a spellcasting focus.
The only place that a spellcasting focus is mentioned in the spellcasting section of the rulebook is here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spellcasting#MaterialM.
Therefore if the spell doesn't have an M component then anything that can act as a spellcasting focus is irrelevant.
Farling
That general rule about when you can use a spellcasting focus is beaten by the specific rule in the third bullet point of the feat which allows me to use the focus to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
I choose Alchemist's Supplies and choose to cast Magic Missile with them.
Because of this weird, but specific scenario I just used a feat's specific wording to circumvent the general rule and thus have done the impossible. I have used the RAW to use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't even have a M component.
But without that general component rule, you can’t actually do anything with a focus. So you still don’t gain a bonus.
But if the spell doesn't need a material component then you don't need a spell casting focus. SO the third line from Artificer initiate would be irrelevant for magic missile it doesn't require a M component. Also the feat doesn't say it removes the need to verbal and somatic components it just says you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
The Initiate feat doesn't REPLACE the other parts that are needed in that spell. It doesn't make it so I can cast a magic missile in a silence spell or if my hands were bound since magic missile REQUIRES a Verbal and somatic components to cast it. All it says is "Hey you want to use your spork as a focus for say Fireball instead of using bat guano for the spells Material component, you can do that, BUT you also still need to wave your hand around for the somatic part and still speak the spells verbal for the verbal part.
No you haven't, yo have just decided what outcome you want and then decided to ignore all rules on the subject and just do what you wanted to do.
Honestly if you want MM to do more damage and are fine ignoring the rules to do so then why not just homebrew an item that gives a +5 (or whatever number you'd like) to the MM damage roll and be done with it?
Drakkon
You are right, I don't need to use the focus to cast the spell, but I can use the focus to cast the spell because the feat allows me to if I so choose.
It's a choice the feat provides me. I could cast it without the focus because Magic Missile still only needs V,S. But I could also choose to cast it with the focus because that's a choice the feat allows me.
And you are right again, if I am within the area of effect of a silence spell I can't provide the V and if my hands are bound I can't provide the S.
But if I am not silenced by any means, and my arms and hands are free to use (not tied or bound) and I can provide the V and the S then I can use the Alchemist's Supplies to cast Magic Missile so long as it uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
In my example I had one hand free to supply the S component and the other hand was holding the Alchemist's Supplies.
(Notice how I'm a stickler for following the rules. Always careful to not add my two cents to the conversation and join the RAI discussion. I simply quote the specific beats general rule and continue to stay within the confines of RAW. Most of what I posted has been copy/pasted from the rulebook, other times I have shortened it here or there for brevity's sake.)
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/134855-important-spellcasting-focus-clarification?page=7#c125
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/introduction#SpecificBeatsGeneral
@Brian_Avery, please address the contradiction your previous post contains with the written rules.
Until you do your reasoning has been demonstrated to be flawed using nothing but your own words and text from the Player's Handbook.