You claimed all along that the general rule for using a focus is that it fills the need for M components.
I claimed the specific and exact wording of the third bullet feat allows me to use a focus to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
The somewhat unique thing the rules allow anyone to do if they choose this feat is use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't have an M component.
All casters from all the classes you mentioned before from Bard to Wizard have to follow that general rule and use their particular focus to replace the M component.
Anyone who takes the Artificer Initiate feat can apply the third bullet point and cast spells that don't have a M component so long as they follow the rules and conditions laid out by that feat.
They allow for my example of using Alchemist's Supplies to cast Magic Missile even though it doesn't have any M component.
If it works for the feat, it works for every other caster.
The specific and exact wording of the cleric's (and any caster's) spellcasting focus feature allows me to use a focus to cast cleric spells.
The thing the rules allow anyone to do is use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't have an M component as long as it's a class spell.
Specific beats general, so no casters from bard to wizard follow the general rule to only use their particular focus to replace the M component.
All spellcasting focus features use the same rules and conditions as the artificer initiate feat.
They allow for my example of using a shield to cast cure wounds even though it doesn't have a material component.
The 1st rule you linked is the rule on components, I always follow that. That is the general rule for all spellcasting on components and governs how to use V,S,M.
The second rule you linked is the rule on specific beats general.
I'm not sure what the contradiction is you're referring to.
But the general rule for components means I can't normally use a focus to cast a spell without M components, maybe. It doesn't actually say that but implies that you use a focus for M components.
Of course that doesn't apply within the specific constraints of the strange scenario created when I use the third bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat to use Alchemist's Supllies to cast Magic Missile occurs, because that allows for an impossible scenario. It allows me to cast a spell with a focus, a spell that has no M components.
Funny how even here with the rules linked and on full display for all to see we have demonstrated once again that specific beats general.
The general rule of spell components does not superimpose itself over the specific rule and rather strange occurrence of that third bullet point.
The exact and RAW wording of which allows for such a thing as me choosing to use Alchemist's Supplies to cast the Magic Missile spell.
Thank you for linking the rules and helping me demonstrate that what I have purposed all along is both legal and following the rules.
Welcome to the right side of the argument. I could not have succeeded in proving it was possible without your help as no one was listening to me quote the rules. Maybe now that you are also using RAW and the rules people will start to listen.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
We have to start from the assumption that the rules are coherent: that identical wording of rules leads to identical function of rules. Without that starting point, then nothing coherent can be said about different rules that use identical wording.
That's sounds like an interesting conversation around RAI.
Perhaps you might want to start your own thread discussing this. This is my thread and I want to discuss the RAW surrounding the weird and strange exception I've discovered is possible through the third bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
And without understanding how the rules work (or that they are in fact coherent), you cannot make meaningful discussion on a feat that shares wording with other relevant rules. Also, discussing the coherence of the actual written words of the rules is discussing RAW, not RAI.
Why so dismissive? It is relevant to this discussion.
That's sounds like an interesting conversation around RAI.
Perhaps you might want to start your own thread discussing this. This is my thread and I want to discuss the RAW surrounding the weird and strange exception I've discovered is possible through the third bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat.
What exactly is there to discuss, aside from the question of whether this exception you claim to have discovered is legitimate? In other words, if everyone stopped arguing with you, what more would there be to say in this thread?
That's sounds like an interesting conversation around RAI.
Perhaps you might want to start your own thread discussing this. This is my thread and I want to discuss the RAW surrounding the weird and strange exception I've discovered is possible through the third bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat.
It isn't a weird of strange exception. Everyone keeps telling you 8 classes come with the same feature.
You're the only one saying that the feat works differently from the classes with the same sentence (only details are different between each instance, the application is identical in all 9 cases).
All the classes have similar wording but not the same.
All the features you mention grant their particular classes an option or selection for a spellcasting focus.
The rules you are quoting for each class all allow an option or selection for a spellcasting focus.
Once the class has selected their option for their spellcasting focus they then follow the general rule for casting a spell which involves using the focus to cast a spell with a M component.
The difference with the third bullet point, if you read it carefully, is that not only are you being granted an option or selection for a spellcasting focus, it continues on to give you a unique and special ability to use that particular focus to cast the spell so long as the spell uses INT for its spellcasting ability.
Do you see the difference now, all the classes get a choice of focus, the feat gives a choice of focus and then gives that focus the ability to cast any spell that uses INT for its spellcasting ability.
Its that special extra ability to use the focus to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability that allows for the strange scenario of casting a spell with a focus that doesn't require an M component.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The difference with the third bullet point, if you read it carefully, is that not only are you being granted an option or selection for a spellcasting focus, it continues on to give you a unique and special ability to use that particular focus to cast the spell so long as the spell uses INT for its spellcasting ability.
Do you see the difference now, all the classes get a choice of focus, the feat gives a choice of focus and then gives that focus the ability to cast any spell that uses INT for its spellcasting ability.
Its that special extra ability to use the focus to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability that allows for the strange scenario of casting a spell with a focus that doesn't require an M component.
Bro, stop. The wording is identical. The feat does not give the focus the ability to cast any spell that uses INT. It gives you the ability to use the tool as a focus for your INT spells, in exactly the same way that the Cleric spellcasting focus gives you the ability to use holy symbols as a focus for your cleric spells. The wording is the same. You keep "creatively" changing the language of the feat to suit your nonsense argument.
The difference with the third bullet point, if you read it carefully, is that not only are you being granted an option or selection for a spellcasting focus, it continues on to give you a unique and special ability to use that particular focus to cast the spell so long as the spell uses INT for its spellcasting ability.
Do you see the difference now, all the classes get a choice of focus, the feat gives a choice of focus and then gives that focus the ability to cast any spell that uses INT for its spellcasting ability.
Its that special extra ability to use the focus to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability that allows for the strange scenario of casting a spell with a focus that doesn't require an M component.
Uhh... No it doesn't. It is the exact same wording as the class feature "use as a spellcasting focus for", not "to cast."
It does not by any stretch of the imagination cast the spell from the tool as if it were a magic item. That isn't a misunderstanding, it is an outright fabrication.
The rules forums is for discussing Rules in the books, not homebrew.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Yes, congratulations, you've reposted the rule you originally asked about, with literally no additional content - no question, no observation, nothing. I'm gonna ask the same question I asked on page 3 again - what's the point of continuing this thread? Do you have any sort of question the rules forum can answer? You've already established you refuse to answer the questions people in this thread have asked you.
The feat allows for the use of the focus for 'any' spell you cast.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
You do realize that by throwing out the general M rule, you've created a situation where your character can't actually cast any M spells.
We know that you must meet the requirements of casting a spell. If a spell is *S,M, then you are required to provide a free hand and you have some vague requirement about providing M ("If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell."), but you've thrown out the rule that says that you can actually use a focus to replace M. Apparently that still means that you need to provide M, but no rules on how. For spells with actual material components, you have to guess what to do.
The most obvious guess is that you now need 3 hands, one for the focus, one "to provide" the components, and one for the S requirement (that simply says you need a free hand).
This creates an extra complication for your proposed character where Tools Required makes all of your artificer spells have a (non-listed) M component, and as long as you are following that third bullet point, you can't use your focus to replace it. Remember, you are the one that says that rule doesn't exist anymore.
The feat allows for the use of the focus for 'any' spell you cast.
"Any" is a key word. You're using it to justify any change to the rules you like. You took it out of context. It is describing a set of spells, like "wizard spell." "Any spell you cast with intelligence as its spellcasting modifier" is an entire phrase that creates a subset of spells. That subset of spells has to be treated like "wizard spells" for the rest of the rule in for literal coherence of the game because the rest of the rule uses identical phrasing. Yes the "which spells?" part of the rule uses the word "any," but the "what can you do with them" remains identical to the other focus rules.
Did you know that most spellcasting classes have spells with and without material components?
The feat allows for the use of the focus for 'any' spell you cast.
Right. The feat and the class feature work the same way. The class feature is limited to class spells and the feat is limited to any spell that is cast using intelligence. The only thing "any" does to the rule is not limit it by class.
Cure wounds is a cleric spell so the cleric's spellcasting focus feature applies to It the same way the feat applies to magic missile. Either both work or neither do, because it is the same rule.
Why even start this thread asking this question if you didn't actually want the correct answer and were just going to argue with everyone?
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell. Similarly, a spellcasting focus, such as a holy symbol, can be used only for the spells from the class associated with that focus.
How does this work or interact with the feat exactly, when the feat allows you to cast any spell with a focus that you gained from outside a class and doesn't differentiate between class for the spell you cast but only requires that it use Intelligence as its spellcasting ability?
Could this somehow, possibly allow you to use your non-class focus to cast any spell but still access features you have from either class, perhaps even the Infuse Item feature as you could put an infusion into this non-class focus?
These seem like important questions to me.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The text of Tools Required (in its errataed state) is different from the text of the feat. The errata was to make this clarification. The feat remains unchanged. That is important. I have tried to point that out several times now.
This tweet is correct for the intended function of the rule and the actual text of the rule now that the errata is issued.
If it works for the feat, it works for every other caster.
The specific and exact wording of the cleric's (and any caster's) spellcasting focus feature allows me to use a focus to cast cleric spells.
The thing the rules allow anyone to do is use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't have an M component as long as it's a class spell.
Specific beats general, so no casters from bard to wizard follow the general rule to only use their particular focus to replace the M component.
All spellcasting focus features use the same rules and conditions as the artificer initiate feat.
They allow for my example of using a shield to cast cure wounds even though it doesn't have a material component.
The 1st rule you linked is the rule on components, I always follow that. That is the general rule for all spellcasting on components and governs how to use V,S,M.
The second rule you linked is the rule on specific beats general.
I'm not sure what the contradiction is you're referring to.
But the general rule for components means I can't normally use a focus to cast a spell without M components, maybe. It doesn't actually say that but implies that you use a focus for M components.
Of course that doesn't apply within the specific constraints of the strange scenario created when I use the third bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat to use Alchemist's Supllies to cast Magic Missile occurs, because that allows for an impossible scenario. It allows me to cast a spell with a focus, a spell that has no M components.
Funny how even here with the rules linked and on full display for all to see we have demonstrated once again that specific beats general.
The general rule of spell components does not superimpose itself over the specific rule and rather strange occurrence of that third bullet point.
The exact and RAW wording of which allows for such a thing as me choosing to use Alchemist's Supplies to cast the Magic Missile spell.
Thank you for linking the rules and helping me demonstrate that what I have purposed all along is both legal and following the rules.
Welcome to the right side of the argument. I could not have succeeded in proving it was possible without your help as no one was listening to me quote the rules. Maybe now that you are also using RAW and the rules people will start to listen.
We have to start from the assumption that the rules are coherent: that identical wording of rules leads to identical function of rules. Without that starting point, then nothing coherent can be said about different rules that use identical wording.
WolfOfTheBees
That's sounds like an interesting conversation around RAI.
Perhaps you might want to start your own thread discussing this. This is my thread and I want to discuss the RAW surrounding the weird and strange exception I've discovered is possible through the third bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat.
And without understanding how the rules work (or that they are in fact coherent), you cannot make meaningful discussion on a feat that shares wording with other relevant rules. Also, discussing the coherence of the actual written words of the rules is discussing RAW, not RAI.
Why so dismissive? It is relevant to this discussion.
What exactly is there to discuss, aside from the question of whether this exception you claim to have discovered is legitimate? In other words, if everyone stopped arguing with you, what more would there be to say in this thread?
It isn't a weird of strange exception. Everyone keeps telling you 8 classes come with the same feature.
You're the only one saying that the feat works differently from the classes with the same sentence (only details are different between each instance, the application is identical in all 9 cases).
DxJxC
There is a huge difference.
All the classes have similar wording but not the same.
All the features you mention grant their particular classes an option or selection for a spellcasting focus.
The rules you are quoting for each class all allow an option or selection for a spellcasting focus.
Once the class has selected their option for their spellcasting focus they then follow the general rule for casting a spell which involves using the focus to cast a spell with a M component.
The difference with the third bullet point, if you read it carefully, is that not only are you being granted an option or selection for a spellcasting focus, it continues on to give you a unique and special ability to use that particular focus to cast the spell so long as the spell uses INT for its spellcasting ability.
Do you see the difference now, all the classes get a choice of focus, the feat gives a choice of focus and then gives that focus the ability to cast any spell that uses INT for its spellcasting ability.
Its that special extra ability to use the focus to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability that allows for the strange scenario of casting a spell with a focus that doesn't require an M component.
Bro, stop. The wording is identical. The feat does not give the focus the ability to cast any spell that uses INT. It gives you the ability to use the tool as a focus for your INT spells, in exactly the same way that the Cleric spellcasting focus gives you the ability to use holy symbols as a focus for your cleric spells. The wording is the same. You keep "creatively" changing the language of the feat to suit your nonsense argument.
Stop. Lying.
Uhh... No it doesn't. It is the exact same wording as the class feature "use as a spellcasting focus for", not "to cast."
It does not by any stretch of the imagination cast the spell from the tool as if it were a magic item. That isn't a misunderstanding, it is an outright fabrication.
The rules forums is for discussing Rules in the books, not homebrew.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Yes, congratulations, you've reposted the rule you originally asked about, with literally no additional content - no question, no observation, nothing. I'm gonna ask the same question I asked on page 3 again - what's the point of continuing this thread? Do you have any sort of question the rules forum can answer? You've already established you refuse to answer the questions people in this thread have asked you.
I guess the key word is any.
The classes can use a focus for their spells.
The feat allows for the use of the focus for 'any' spell you cast.
You do realize that by throwing out the general M rule, you've created a situation where your character can't actually cast any M spells.
We know that you must meet the requirements of casting a spell. If a spell is *S,M, then you are required to provide a free hand and you have some vague requirement about providing M ("If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell."), but you've thrown out the rule that says that you can actually use a focus to replace M. Apparently that still means that you need to provide M, but no rules on how. For spells with actual material components, you have to guess what to do.
The most obvious guess is that you now need 3 hands, one for the focus, one "to provide" the components, and one for the S requirement (that simply says you need a free hand).
This creates an extra complication for your proposed character where Tools Required makes all of your artificer spells have a (non-listed) M component, and as long as you are following that third bullet point, you can't use your focus to replace it. Remember, you are the one that says that rule doesn't exist anymore.
"Any" is a key word. You're using it to justify any change to the rules you like. You took it out of context. It is describing a set of spells, like "wizard spell." "Any spell you cast with intelligence as its spellcasting modifier" is an entire phrase that creates a subset of spells. That subset of spells has to be treated like "wizard spells" for the rest of the rule in for literal coherence of the game because the rest of the rule uses identical phrasing. Yes the "which spells?" part of the rule uses the word "any," but the "what can you do with them" remains identical to the other focus rules.
Did you know that most spellcasting classes have spells with and without material components?
You're picking the wrong word.
Have another look at the wording given in post #121 (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/134855-important-spellcasting-focus-clarification?comment=121)
By your logic, a wizard can also use a spellcasting focus for ANY spell, regardless of whether it has M or not (which is obviously wrong).
Right. The feat and the class feature work the same way. The class feature is limited to class spells and the feat is limited to any spell that is cast using intelligence. The only thing "any" does to the rule is not limit it by class.
Cure wounds is a cleric spell so the cleric's spellcasting focus feature applies to It the same way the feat applies to magic missile. Either both work or neither do, because it is the same rule.
Why even start this thread asking this question if you didn't actually want the correct answer and were just going to argue with everyone?
Here is a paragraph from the multi class rules:
Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell. Similarly, a spellcasting focus, such as a holy symbol, can be used only for the spells from the class associated with that focus.
How does this work or interact with the feat exactly, when the feat allows you to cast any spell with a focus that you gained from outside a class and doesn't differentiate between class for the spell you cast but only requires that it use Intelligence as its spellcasting ability?
Could this somehow, possibly allow you to use your non-class focus to cast any spell but still access features you have from either class, perhaps even the Infuse Item feature as you could put an infusion into this non-class focus?
These seem like important questions to me.
The text of Tools Required (in its errataed state) is different from the text of the feat. The errata was to make this clarification. The feat remains unchanged. That is important. I have tried to point that out several times now.
This tweet is correct for the intended function of the rule and the actual text of the rule now that the errata is issued.