I am mastering the Hoard of the Dragon Queen module for some friends and to save Leosin Erlanthar the party decided to dig a tunnel under the camp (about 900 feet long) using Mold Earth, reach the pole where the prisoner is tied and then make him fall in the tunnesl using the cantrip. Now my doubts are many in this regard and practically all deriving from the generic description of the cantrip.
1) Is it possible to dig such a tunnel, 900 feet long, with five players inside, using only a cantrip?
2) Does the cantrip have to move all the earth cube or can it only move part of it? I ask this because the wizard would want to use the cantrip to make occasional small holes for air to pass since the rest of the tunnel will be closed by the displaced earth.
3) Can the displaced learth occupy the space occupied by a creature? I ask this because in moving the earth the wizard would have to move it backwards to let the others pass and this cube of earth for an action would be in the space occupied by another player.
4) Can the cantrip move earth two squares below ground level? The wizard would like to dig the tunnel 10 feet underground so as not to be heard by those in the camp.
1) The cantrip only moves loose earth, so any tunnel made in loose earth is going to collapse in on itself.
1b) Using the spacing rules, each character requires it's own 5 x 5 ft space in which to stand - so a party of 5 people would need a tunnel 25 feet long.
2) You can target any amount of loose earth, up to a 5x5x5 ft cube.
3) I suspect a 5x5 ft cube of loose earth won't easily share a space with a medium sized creature.
4) If there happens to be an area of loose earth below that nice 10 ft thick solid ground above it (to avoid a tunnel collapse), then sure let them excavate it out.
1) Potentially. Mold earth doesn't directly prevent such a feat.
2) This is fine. The earth just has to fit within a 5 ft cube, it doesn't have to be a whole cube.
3) Are they making a tunnel or are they filling it in behind them? Filling it in will be much faster, but does lead to the problem of having enough room to work with. The problem I'd like to point out here is time. It would take probably about 2 hours each way to do the fill in method (providing enough room for 5 creatures and getting air), but over 130 hours to make a full tunnel.
4) And here we have the main problem. Mold earth only works on loose earth. Finding loose earth 10 feet down depends on the area. The area that chapter 2 takes place in is noted as a rocky plateau. I'd guess the loose earth barely goes 5 feet down, let alone further. Not to mention holding up a ceiling of similarly loose earth even if it is deep enough.
3) Are they making a tunnel or are they filling it in behind them? Filling it in will be much faster, but does lead to the problem of having enough room to work with. The problem I'd like to point out here is time. It would take probably about 2 hours each way to do the fill in method (providing enough room for 5 creatures and getting air), but over 130 hours to make a full tunnel.
The wizard wants to dig first a 30feet tunnel and emptying it completely, then for the rest of the 870feet dig every cube and deposit it at the back of the fifth player closing the path behind them. For this reason I asked if the earth cube can be placed in a spot occupied by another player.
Considering you can only move the cube of earth 5 feet with each cast, the logistics of shuffling PCs and earth cube around in that little pocket of space provide an extra set of reasons why it would be tricky, beyond all the others everyone else has listed
Then there's the question of whether any burrowing monsters would be attracted to the noise of all that excavation
That said, it's a clever idea, and it's always nice to reward a clever idea. Maybe have the party make it a little way using mold earth before stumbling on an underground cave system that runs under the camp and eventually links up with that nursery area. Of course, there might be other dangers in the caves too...
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
3) Are they making a tunnel or are they filling it in behind them? Filling it in will be much faster, but does lead to the problem of having enough room to work with. The problem I'd like to point out here is time. It would take probably about 2 hours each way to do the fill in method (providing enough room for 5 creatures and getting air), but over 130 hours to make a full tunnel.
The wizard wants to dig first a 30feet tunnel and emptying it completely, then for the rest of the 870feet dig every cube and deposit it at the back of the fifth player closing the path behind them. For this reason I asked if the earth cube can be placed in a spot occupied by another player.
Ok. I've plugged that into the math and including air holes would take 2 hours and 6 minutes each direction.
The escape would have been noticed in that time and they would not exit outside the search radius (the excavated dirt would have been found by then too). Their air holes might even get noticed before or during rescue (they would need to be a few inches wide to work).
It still leaves the problems of the dirt likely being too hard and needing to be held up if not.
That said, it's a clever idea, and it's always nice to reward a clever idea. Maybe have the party make it a little way using mold earth before stumbling on an underground cave system that runs under the camp and eventually links up with that nursery area. Of course, there might be other dangers in the caves too...
This is a very good idea, I was alredy thinking of adding a secondary exit from the cave that brings into the Underdark, this might solve a couple problems. Thank you.
3) Are they making a tunnel or are they filling it in behind them? Filling it in will be much faster, but does lead to the problem of having enough room to work with. The problem I'd like to point out here is time. It would take probably about 2 hours each way to do the fill in method (providing enough room for 5 creatures and getting air), but over 130 hours to make a full tunnel.
The wizard wants to dig first a 30feet tunnel and emptying it completely, then for the rest of the 870feet dig every cube and deposit it at the back of the fifth player closing the path behind them. For this reason I asked if the earth cube can be placed in a spot occupied by another player.
Ok. I've plugged that into the math and including air holes would take 2 hours and 6 minutes each direction.
The escape would have been noticed in that time and they would not exit outside the search radius (the excavated dirt would have been found by then too). Their air holes might even get noticed before or during rescue (they would need to be a few inches wide to work).
It still leaves the problems of the dirt likely being too hard and needing to be held up if not.
Ok this is very interesting, I will take this in consideration during the procedure. Thank you.
I find this kind of interesting because my players did more or less the same thing to rescue Leosin, except instead of relying on Mold Earth they actually allied themselves with the Kobolds in the camp and asked them to help tunnel Leosin out. It worked pretty differently for me... I had already established that the Kobolds had an intricate web of tunnels throughout the mountains, and there happened to be a tunnel that passed near where he was. Still, it took 24 hours for the Kobolds to safely excavate an escape in secret. There were a number of complications and they had to stage a distraction so the cultists wouldn't notice Leosin vanishing but it all worked out in the end.
I don't understand people's insistence on adhering to the least useful definition of "loose earth" in this spell. The cantrip has it's limitations, but that just shouldn't be one of them. The spell can only be used on, I dunno, beaches or piles of freshly dug-up earth if that's the definition we're using. Dirt in general is packed pretty tightly and isn't "loose." They worded this spell terribly; just let your players do creative things with it, for crying out loud.
(Although, personally, as a DM, any complex mining operation like this is liable to be noticed by bad guys and/or be difficult to pull off. Purely for dramatic reasons.)
I don't understand people's insistence on adhering to the least useful definition of "loose earth" in this spell. The cantrip has it's limitations, but that just shouldn't be one of them. The spell can only be used on, I dunno, beaches or piles of freshly dug-up earth if that's the definition we're using. Dirt in general is packed pretty tightly and isn't "loose." They worded this spell terribly; just let your players do creative things with it, for crying out loud.
(Although, personally, as a DM, any complex mining operation like this is liable to be noticed by bad guys and/or be difficult to pull off. Purely for dramatic reasons.)
I generally define "Loose Earth" to be any kind of natural dirt. So pretty much anything that isn't stone or modified dirt like clay bricks and the like. Otherwise the spell is as bad as Gust.
I don't understand people's insistence on adhering to the least useful definition of "loose earth" in this spell. The cantrip has it's limitations, but that just shouldn't be one of them. The spell can only be used on, I dunno, beaches or piles of freshly dug-up earth if that's the definition we're using. Dirt in general is packed pretty tightly and isn't "loose." They worded this spell terribly; just let your players do creative things with it, for crying out loud.
(Although, personally, as a DM, any complex mining operation like this is liable to be noticed by bad guys and/or be difficult to pull off. Purely for dramatic reasons.)
I consider any dirt that would collapse/crumble under its own weight to be "loose earth".
So "the hollow of a rocky plateau" that is the official description of the area OP is asking about probably hits hard clay or rock after only a few feet. I do not consider stone or hardened clay to be "loose earth," especially as there is a higher level spell for dealing with such materials.
When in doubt, if it can be dug with a spade shovel, the cantrip can move it. If it requires a pick or trench shovel, it is too much (though it could be loosened with tools to continue moving with the spell). That's the way I run it.
just let your players do creative things with it, for crying out loud.
There's a clear middle, err, ground for me between "let them do creative things" and "let them spam a cantrip to do something equivalent to a high-level spell"
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
just let your players do creative things with it, for crying out loud.
There's a clear middle, err, ground for me between "let them do creative things" and "let them spam a cantrip to do something equivalent to a high-level spell"
That is why I asked in the first place, the suggestion here have been helpful and you can work around the cantrip "broke" power. Without a damage control they can do whatever they want with enough time. I honestly think that as a cantrip is overwhelmingly broke au naturel, it needs a "nerf" from the DM and the actual situation.
just let your players do creative things with it, for crying out loud.
There's a clear middle, err, ground for me between "let them do creative things" and "let them spam a cantrip to do something equivalent to a high-level spell"
That is why I asked in the first place, the suggestion here have been helpful and you can work around the cantrip "broke" power. Without a damage control they can do whatever they want with enough time. I honestly think that as a cantrip is overwhelmingly broke au naturel, it needs a "nerf" from the DM and the actual situation.
It is only broken if the DM doesn't consider the environment. It takes about 3-4 feet of digging to start hitting large rocks. Realistically the spell is not meant to be able to excavate deeper than this.
That is why I asked in the first place, the suggestion here have been helpful and you can work around the cantrip "broke" power. Without a damage control they can do whatever they want with enough time. I honestly think that as a cantrip is overwhelmingly broke au naturel, it needs a "nerf" from the DM and the actual situation.
I admittedly agree it needs to be reigned in; I mainly chafe at that damned "loose earth" phrase.
So many ways a complex tunneling operation can go sideways--and in interesting, and dramatic ways that could be fun for the party to contend with. Maybe moving 5 cubic feet of earth isn't silent; maybe it vibrates the ground a bit too; maybe they design it badly and imperfections in the ground composition cause cave-ins, maybe they don't dig to the correct place, maybe other characters in the party don't want to wait around; and so forth.
And if their solution for everything is time-consuming mining projects, it's worth a discussion about what you guys enjoy playing. If mining is fun for all, I mean, go for it. If not, gotta come to an agreement that they need to not make the game tedious like that (ie: it's not fun if they use the same mind-numbing strategy, wasting everyone's time). (Had to actively avoid a "boring" adjective, there...)
That is why I asked in the first place, the suggestion here have been helpful and you can work around the cantrip "broke" power. Without a damage control they can do whatever they want with enough time. I honestly think that as a cantrip is overwhelmingly broke au naturel, it needs a "nerf" from the DM and the actual situation.
I admittedly agree it needs to be reigned in; I mainly chafe at that damned "loose earth" phrase.
So many ways a complex tunneling operation can go sideways--and in interesting, and dramatic ways that could be fun for the party to contend with. Maybe moving 5 cubic feet of earth isn't silent; maybe it vibrates the ground a bit too; maybe they design it badly and imperfections in the ground composition cause cave-ins, maybe they don't dig to the correct place, maybe other characters in the party don't want to wait around; and so forth.
And if their solution for everything is time-consuming mining projects, it's worth a discussion about what you guys enjoy playing. If mining is fun for all, I mean, go for it. If not, gotta come to an agreement that they need to not make the game tedious like that (ie: it's not fun if they use the same mind-numbing strategy, wasting everyone's time). (Had to actively avoid a "boring" adjective, there...)
This is the minimum, if they didn't find any "resistance" in the process then they might as well do a fast forward. I'm already thinking about letting them find a cave that leads to the Underdark following the collapse of the floor. Making them lose the direction is a bit more complex since the wizard wants to use his familiar in the form of a mole to act as a "periscope". The fact is that the player in question is a veteran of the game and he always does these things that catch me off guard. I will not be fussy about the type of earth that can be excavated since we and the party have already discussed it, but I can make the job more "difficult".
3) Are they making a tunnel or are they filling it in behind them? Filling it in will be much faster, but does lead to the problem of having enough room to work with. The problem I'd like to point out here is time. It would take probably about 2 hours each way to do the fill in method (providing enough room for 5 creatures and getting air), but over 130 hours to make a full tunnel.
The wizard wants to dig first a 30feet tunnel and emptying it completely, then for the rest of the 870feet dig every cube and deposit it at the back of the fifth player closing the path behind them. For this reason I asked if the earth cube can be placed in a spot occupied by another player.
Ok. I've plugged that into the math and including air holes would take 2 hours and 6 minutes each direction.
The escape would have been noticed in that time and they would not exit outside the search radius (the excavated dirt would have been found by then too). Their air holes might even get noticed before or during rescue (they would need to be a few inches wide to work).
It still leaves the problems of the dirt likely being too hard and needing to be held up if not.
Ok this is very interesting, I will take this in consideration during the procedure. Thank you.
Also depends on how much your DM worries about air. 'Air holes' are not going to cut it well since there likely would be no or next to no air flow. Underground bunkers do nto simply have air holes, they have ventilator shafts, with fans to keep the air moving. If someone in the party has a gust cantrip, using that every round to keep the air moving would likely be a good precaution, minimum.
I'm the DM and I will take this into consideration, specially since these holes can be spotted or during a storm can be filled with water. I'm also pretty sure that a few inches hole into a dirt roof make all the thing unstable even if it's a 10feet thick roof of dirt.
1) yes it's possible provided the terrain has dirt that deep underground.
2) yes, the spells specifies you can choose a portion of dirt up to a5ft cube, not necessarely a whole cube. They will still need equipment or magic to make the air circulate because it will not do it by itself.
3) raw no. But the caster could choose to move a slightly smaller section of dirt or maybe if he tries to move a whole cube in another person's space a small portion of it could be left behind
4) yes, by raw and by rai as specified by game designer Jeremy Crawford: @Jeremy Crawford what's loose earth for the mold earth cantrip? Not stone, or a more specific type of dirt structure? @raymondhweiss Think dirt, not stone. As other have said it basically means unaltered dirt, so no clay bricks. Also at that depht the dirt could be (depending on it's composition) compacted enought to be self supporting but obviously some kind of reinforcement is highly recomanded.
As a last personal opinion i would like to add to let your players enjoy their solution and to prize initiative and creativity, instead of working against them go with their plan and maybe throw a reasonable problem in the way, but not something too time consuming otherwise it could look like you just want to punish them. A good way to be sure they are having fun is by asking them at the end of the session, how they think the plan will go or how you can improve!
Good luck and good rolls!
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Hello,
I am mastering the Hoard of the Dragon Queen module for some friends and to save Leosin Erlanthar the party decided to dig a tunnel under the camp (about 900 feet long) using Mold Earth, reach the pole where the prisoner is tied and then make him fall in the tunnesl using the cantrip. Now my doubts are many in this regard and practically all deriving from the generic description of the cantrip.
1) Is it possible to dig such a tunnel, 900 feet long, with five players inside, using only a cantrip?
2) Does the cantrip have to move all the earth cube or can it only move part of it? I ask this because the wizard would want to use the cantrip to make occasional small holes for air to pass since the rest of the tunnel will be closed by the displaced earth.
3) Can the displaced learth occupy the space occupied by a creature? I ask this because in moving the earth the wizard would have to move it backwards to let the others pass and this cube of earth for an action would be in the space occupied by another player.
4) Can the cantrip move earth two squares below ground level? The wizard would like to dig the tunnel 10 feet underground so as not to be heard by those in the camp.
Thank you for the help
1) The cantrip only moves loose earth, so any tunnel made in loose earth is going to collapse in on itself.
1b) Using the spacing rules, each character requires it's own 5 x 5 ft space in which to stand - so a party of 5 people would need a tunnel 25 feet long.
2) You can target any amount of loose earth, up to a 5x5x5 ft cube.
3) I suspect a 5x5 ft cube of loose earth won't easily share a space with a medium sized creature.
4) If there happens to be an area of loose earth below that nice 10 ft thick solid ground above it (to avoid a tunnel collapse), then sure let them excavate it out.
Well...
1) Potentially. Mold earth doesn't directly prevent such a feat.
2) This is fine. The earth just has to fit within a 5 ft cube, it doesn't have to be a whole cube.
3) Are they making a tunnel or are they filling it in behind them? Filling it in will be much faster, but does lead to the problem of having enough room to work with. The problem I'd like to point out here is time. It would take probably about 2 hours each way to do the fill in method (providing enough room for 5 creatures and getting air), but over 130 hours to make a full tunnel.
4) And here we have the main problem. Mold earth only works on loose earth. Finding loose earth 10 feet down depends on the area. The area that chapter 2 takes place in is noted as a rocky plateau. I'd guess the loose earth barely goes 5 feet down, let alone further. Not to mention holding up a ceiling of similarly loose earth even if it is deep enough.
Tldr: Holes yes. Walls yes. Tunnels no.
Thank you all for the help, now everything is more clear
The wizard wants to dig first a 30feet tunnel and emptying it completely, then for the rest of the 870feet dig every cube and deposit it at the back of the fifth player closing the path behind them. For this reason I asked if the earth cube can be placed in a spot occupied by another player.
Considering you can only move the cube of earth 5 feet with each cast, the logistics of shuffling PCs and earth cube around in that little pocket of space provide an extra set of reasons why it would be tricky, beyond all the others everyone else has listed
Then there's the question of whether any burrowing monsters would be attracted to the noise of all that excavation
That said, it's a clever idea, and it's always nice to reward a clever idea. Maybe have the party make it a little way using mold earth before stumbling on an underground cave system that runs under the camp and eventually links up with that nursery area. Of course, there might be other dangers in the caves too...
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ok. I've plugged that into the math and including air holes would take 2 hours and 6 minutes each direction.
The escape would have been noticed in that time and they would not exit outside the search radius (the excavated dirt would have been found by then too). Their air holes might even get noticed before or during rescue (they would need to be a few inches wide to work).
It still leaves the problems of the dirt likely being too hard and needing to be held up if not.
This is a very good idea, I was alredy thinking of adding a secondary exit from the cave that brings into the Underdark, this might solve a couple problems. Thank you.
Ok this is very interesting, I will take this in consideration during the procedure. Thank you.
I find this kind of interesting because my players did more or less the same thing to rescue Leosin, except instead of relying on Mold Earth they actually allied themselves with the Kobolds in the camp and asked them to help tunnel Leosin out. It worked pretty differently for me... I had already established that the Kobolds had an intricate web of tunnels throughout the mountains, and there happened to be a tunnel that passed near where he was. Still, it took 24 hours for the Kobolds to safely excavate an escape in secret. There were a number of complications and they had to stage a distraction so the cultists wouldn't notice Leosin vanishing but it all worked out in the end.
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I don't understand people's insistence on adhering to the least useful definition of "loose earth" in this spell. The cantrip has it's limitations, but that just shouldn't be one of them. The spell can only be used on, I dunno, beaches or piles of freshly dug-up earth if that's the definition we're using. Dirt in general is packed pretty tightly and isn't "loose." They worded this spell terribly; just let your players do creative things with it, for crying out loud.
(Although, personally, as a DM, any complex mining operation like this is liable to be noticed by bad guys and/or be difficult to pull off. Purely for dramatic reasons.)
I generally define "Loose Earth" to be any kind of natural dirt. So pretty much anything that isn't stone or modified dirt like clay bricks and the like. Otherwise the spell is as bad as Gust.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I consider any dirt that would collapse/crumble under its own weight to be "loose earth".
So "the hollow of a rocky plateau" that is the official description of the area OP is asking about probably hits hard clay or rock after only a few feet. I do not consider stone or hardened clay to be "loose earth," especially as there is a higher level spell for dealing with such materials.
When in doubt, if it can be dug with a spade shovel, the cantrip can move it. If it requires a pick or trench shovel, it is too much (though it could be loosened with tools to continue moving with the spell). That's the way I run it.
There's a clear middle, err, ground for me between "let them do creative things" and "let them spam a cantrip to do something equivalent to a high-level spell"
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That is why I asked in the first place, the suggestion here have been helpful and you can work around the cantrip "broke" power. Without a damage control they can do whatever they want with enough time. I honestly think that as a cantrip is overwhelmingly broke au naturel, it needs a "nerf" from the DM and the actual situation.
It is only broken if the DM doesn't consider the environment. It takes about 3-4 feet of digging to start hitting large rocks. Realistically the spell is not meant to be able to excavate deeper than this.
I admittedly agree it needs to be reigned in; I mainly chafe at that damned "loose earth" phrase.
So many ways a complex tunneling operation can go sideways--and in interesting, and dramatic ways that could be fun for the party to contend with. Maybe moving 5 cubic feet of earth isn't silent; maybe it vibrates the ground a bit too; maybe they design it badly and imperfections in the ground composition cause cave-ins, maybe they don't dig to the correct place, maybe other characters in the party don't want to wait around; and so forth.
And if their solution for everything is time-consuming mining projects, it's worth a discussion about what you guys enjoy playing. If mining is fun for all, I mean, go for it. If not, gotta come to an agreement that they need to not make the game tedious like that (ie: it's not fun if they use the same mind-numbing strategy, wasting everyone's time). (Had to actively avoid a "boring" adjective, there...)
This is the minimum, if they didn't find any "resistance" in the process then they might as well do a fast forward. I'm already thinking about letting them find a cave that leads to the Underdark following the collapse of the floor. Making them lose the direction is a bit more complex since the wizard wants to use his familiar in the form of a mole to act as a "periscope". The fact is that the player in question is a veteran of the game and he always does these things that catch me off guard. I will not be fussy about the type of earth that can be excavated since we and the party have already discussed it, but I can make the job more "difficult".
I'm the DM and I will take this into consideration, specially since these holes can be spotted or during a storm can be filled with water. I'm also pretty sure that a few inches hole into a dirt roof make all the thing unstable even if it's a 10feet thick roof of dirt.
Points to your players, they have immagination
1) yes it's possible provided the terrain has dirt that deep underground.
2) yes, the spells specifies you can choose a portion of dirt up to a 5ft cube, not necessarely a whole cube.
They will still need equipment or magic to make the air circulate because it will not do it by itself.
3) raw no. But the caster could choose to move a slightly smaller section of dirt or maybe if he tries to move a whole cube in another person's space a small portion of it could be left behind
4) yes, by raw and by rai as specified by game designer Jeremy Crawford:
@Jeremy Crawford what's loose earth for the mold earth cantrip? Not stone, or a more specific type of dirt structure?
@raymondhweiss Think dirt, not stone.
As other have said it basically means unaltered dirt, so no clay bricks.
Also at that depht the dirt could be (depending on it's composition) compacted enought to be self supporting but obviously some kind of reinforcement is highly recomanded.
As a last personal opinion i would like to add to let your players enjoy their solution and to prize initiative and creativity, instead of working against them go with their plan and maybe throw a reasonable problem in the way, but not something too time consuming otherwise it could look like you just want to punish them.
A good way to be sure they are having fun is by asking them at the end of the session, how they think the plan will go or how you can improve!
Good luck and good rolls!