I think its just an agree to disagree scenario. Its fair to interpret it that way but it is an interpretation, so it would be fair to go the other way as well. I've seen reddit posts asking the same, and there definitely are some who agree with you, they are typically less than majority but definitely are some. To me, why I said i'd argue with the DM about it is, it comes to a point of personal preference only in this matter as short rests don't state (or long rests for that matter) anything about concentrating on a spell. It just specifically states what you can't do "like cast a spell" for example. To think you can't stand guard while concentrating on a spell, or lean against a tree and rest while concentrating on a spell seems odd to me but again to each their own. But the rub is, you're now taking away something from one of your players based solely on your own personal view that could impact their character a great deal and isn't at all game breaking (again most assume you can do this already). This is where a DM can say "I don't like it, but, because its not specifically stated anywhere and you as a player believe its ok to do per the rules i'll allow it". When you play as a Warlock or any other character, you can certainly not use this rule. But to take it away from a player based on personal views to me is not how a DM should conduct a game. Personally, i'd tell my DM "fine, if thats how you feel, please introduce a new character to the group next session because i'm no longer playing a Warlock in your campaign". Just remember its about the players, not about your way or the highway.
Also, sage advice says you can but you're saying "yes you can concentrate during a short rest but you don't get benefits" which doesn't make any sense. If you don't get the benefits then you didn't take a short rest. Sage advice would have clearly just stated you're not taking a short rest if concentrating, or something to that degree. The implication that the idea of a short rest is getting the benefits is obvious it seems.
But to take it away from a player based on personal views to me is not how a DM should conduct a game. Personally, i'd tell my DM "fine, if thats how you feel, please introduce a new character to the group next session because i'm no longer playing a Warlock in your campaign". Just remember its about the players, not about your way or the highway.
I'm not really sure why you keep using "personal views" with a negative connotation in this context. That's exactly how a DM is required to rule on a situation where there is nothing specified in the rules one way or the other. The DM uses his personal views about how it should work in his game and makes a ruling based on that. How else would you make such a decision?
I'm also not sure why you think that disallowing concentration during a rest takes something away from a player? Why should a Warlock or any other character be allowed to have full resources and also an ongoing spell effect active "for free" when getting started on their adventure after a period of downtime? To me, that's not something that makes sense for any character to have in the first place so nothing is being taken away. If you want the spell effect then go ahead and use the resource and cast the spell. Casting a leveled spell for free makes no sense to me.
It just specifically states what you can't do "like cast a spell" for example.
It is important to notice that the list of activities that you can't do includes: "similar adventuring activity". In my opinion, concentration falls into this category. Other DM's will say otherwise. There is no explicit guidance in the rules on this -- this is a DM call for their game.
you're saying "yes you can concentrate during a short rest but you don't get benefits" which doesn't make any sense. If you don't get the benefits then you didn't take a short rest . . . The implication that the idea of a short rest is getting the benefits is obvious it seems.
Not necessarily. Sometimes the party is taking a rest and some characters get the benefits of the rest and others do not -- perhaps those characters don't need the rest so they are making more productive use of that time, for example.
Again, a Sage Advice "ruling" in a case like this is irrelevant. They are not really interpreting the rules as written in this case -- there is no rule. The developer is simply offering how he would rule it in his games. There is a difference.
In the end, there really is nothing to argue about in this thread. It is entirely the DM's call. Some will rule that concentration is allowed during a rest and others will rule that it is not. They are both correct.
Personal views as in it doesn't state you can't and Sage Advice says its fine. Its only negative to me when the interpretation takes something small but meaningful away from a player that in no way breaks the game. If there was Sage Advice against it i'd say fine, its clear it was meant to not work. But with no clear indication PLUS Sage Advice saying yes, to me that leans in favour of the player and now its taking something away which lessens enjoyment for the player but gives the DM more authority I guess.
At the very least, if your player had already rolled a Walrock and was playing assuming this was ok to do and when they eventually go to do it you say no, i'd hope you'd give in and say this campaign i'll allow it but next time so you're aware I don't think you should be allowed. But if you tell the player as soon as they mention they're playing a Warlock prior to the campaign starting, sure thats fine, a DM can homebrew anything as long as they're upfront about it.
Sorry, so you think his question was basically "I know its not possible for me to get the benefits of a short rest with Hex up, but can I concentrate on Hex while I pretend to take a short rest?" and Mike Mears says "Yes, as long as you don't sleep you can pretend to take a short rest with no added benefits" lol. Thats an odd interpretation since not getting the benefits of a short rest is equivalent to absolutely nothing. So the answer is of course you can concentrate on a spell doing absolutely nothing. That explanation made me laugh thanks.
Sage Advice is the best thing we have to interpreting rules that are no clearly stated or vague. To ignore them is fine (its homebrew i'd say) but fine again as long as its upfront prior to campaign. But if its a matter of one person has Sage Advice saying they can, and the DM has their view that they can't, well seems hard to side with the DM if its happening in the moment. But again, a good DM would allow it and then next campaign say no more.
Yes, its a DM's call, but I think you need to give up on the Sage Advice argument of it, that was funny but not convincing.
Why would you call my ruling homebrew? Please state the rule as written that conflicts with my ruling.
Ok, since my use of the phrase "gain the benefits of a short rest" seems to be baffling you to the point where you are completely putting words in my mouth that I did not say or even imply then let's just forget I said that and assume that I just said "take a short rest" since you seem to like that better for some reason. To me, that phrase might be interpreted to mean "attempting a short rest" or "starting a short rest" which would not be accurate but fine. I also didn't want to say "completing a short rest" for similar reasons. My words tend to be chosen precisely but if they are going over your head and causing a tizzy then fine we can simplify. The idea is that if you are concentrating for the first five minutes of the rest then that time doesn't "count towards" gaining the benefits and so you'd have to rest for "an extra 5 minutes" on the back end before you benefit. But sure, "take a rest" is fine.
A warlock is easily balanced vs other classes without being allowed to have a free spell active while also at full resources. I think those players would be just fine.
This is like proving there's no god. The onus is on you. If it doesn't state concentration breaks a short rest, I don't have to prove it doesn't, you have to prove it does. I provided Sage Advice stating the interpretation is that it doesn't, you have not.
No matter what wording you use its nonsense. It doesn't matter if you say "get benefits" or "take a rest" or anything. The point is there are two things that can happen, you take a short rest and get benefits, you do not take a short rest and get nothing. You're odd point was "sometimes players don't take a short rest because they don't need it", umm ok what dose that have to do with anything we're talking about? Do you think Mike Mearls thought the guy asking the question meant "if my friends are taking a short rest but I choose not to because I can't get benefits of it, can I still hold concentration" lol. Phrase it however you like, its a nonsense argument.
Not sure why then, Hex, a spell that can last 24 hours, that was made for a Warlock who depends on short rests, but would break during any short rest, despite Dungeon Master guide stating an average 2 short rests per day.
It really isn't, its one of the most complained about classes in the game (excluding Monk) regarding pact magic and lack of spell slots. They would be fine yes, i'm just saying why take something away that is just based on opinion when you can give a player something a creator of the game said was ok to do. But thats some DM's for you I guess, power trips.
You need to knock it off with your obsession of my use of the phrase "gain the benefits of a short rest". It wasn't even an important detail in the point that I was making. I was only using that phrase because that's what it actually says in the rulebook so I was staying consistent with that. In case you haven't read the rules:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity - at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity - the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
A character can't benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period, and a character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits.
This is like proving there's no god. The onus is on you. If it doesn't state concentration breaks a short rest, I don't have to prove it doesn't, you have to prove it does.
This is false. A rulebook cannot possibly include an example for every conceivable activity. That's why the rulebook explicitly disallows an entire category of activities called "similar adventuring activity". Why do you think those words are in there? Just to increase the wordcount of the book? No. It is because similar adventuring activity is not allowed while resting.
How would you rule as to whether or not the following activities are too strenuous to perform while resting:
-- Running a marathon
-- Doing 5,000 pushups while wearing a 100 pound backpack
-- Swimming across a lake as fast as you can
-- Cutting down a grove of trees with an axe
-- Climbing up a 1000 foot rope
-- Throwing a full load of 90 pound bales of hay onto a large trailer
-- Building a stone wall
But wait! None of these activities are specifically listed in the rulebook so they must all be non-strenuous activities that can be performed during resting! Right!!???
Not sure why then, Hex, a spell that can last 24 hours, that was made for a Warlock who depends on short rests, but would break during any short rest, despite Dungeon Master guide stating an average 2 short rests per day.
This has already been explained. I am not going to bother to cut-and-paste the answer. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.
why take something away that is just based on opinion when you can give a player something a creator of the game said was ok to do. But thats some DM's for you I guess, power trips.
lol what? The reason I mentioned your phrasing is only because you complained in the previous post about different ways to say it, my point was any way you use it is the same so your phasing DOESN'T MATTER. But i'm sure me saying it doesn't matter means you're going to complain again saying "all you can do is focus on the one way I said that" lol geeze read man.
You're stating a long rest rules not short rest. This is not about what does or doesn't break a long rest. Long rests and short rests are not equivalent as much as you need them to be to prove your point. If we're going by rules, concentration states "dong normal activities like moving and attacking don't break concentration" so you can do normal activities fine without issue, normal like eating, drinking, reading, tending to wounds?
Comparing concentrating on a spell to a marathon is a stretch since you can do anything while concentrating on spell, (except cast another concentration spell) where as you can't do anything running a marathon. I can sit down, eat, be on guard, drink, read, heal myself, etc all while concentrating, everything that is listed in a short rest can be done while concentrating (except sleep per Sage Advice which we pretend doesn't exist so we can make rules up ourselves). And apparently I can do all this for 24 hours straight due to Hex and Hunters Mark lasting that long, is my character having a mental breakdown doing something so strenuous for that long? or is it more likely concentrating isn't that strenuous, has never been stated it is, which is why 24 hour spells exist. BTW you can build a stonewall while on a short rest, just concentrate on the Wall of Stone spell.
Also, there are reasons concentrating on a spell would be useful during a short rest (Hunter's Mark and Hex oddly designed for long durations up to 24 hours) where there is no spells I can think of designed to accommodate running a marathon during a short rest, but maybe you can find some?
You're explanations are grasps at best and do not reflect the standard play or play designed by WotC as stated taking 2 short rests per day on average. But I do love laughing at your "well sometimes people take a short rest and others don't need it so they don't take it so thats why it makes sense" haha
So you're telling me if a player of yours assumed they could concentrate during a short rest based on spells like Hex designed that way, nothing in the rules calling concentration strenuous, Mike Mearls saying yes you can concentrate on Hex while taking a short rest, and you say no, you didn't take something away they assumed they had? Huh what an awesome way to view life, must be easy for you.
It's not a matter of if resting breaks concentration -- it doesn't. It's the other way around. Concentration "breaks" rest. Like, you would get no benefit from the rest period since you spent it performing strenuous activities, which is forbidden during resting in order to benefit from it.
I disagree :) ... and now I understand why a thread from the spring on short rests and concentration just got resurrected.
Here was my answer in the previous thread if you want the details:
TL;DR: There is an explicit list of things that may break concentration -
"Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration:
Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can’t concentrate on two spells at once.
Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon’s breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage.
Being incapacitated or killed. You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die.
The DM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you’re on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell."
Resting is NOT one of the factors that break concentration (in addition resting is certainly not as strenuous as being hit by a wave on a storm tossed ship). Going to sleep and becoming incapacitated WOULD explicitly break concentration (so don't nap on your short rest) but sitting around eating, drinking or reading during a short rest is far less strenuous than attacking or moving during combat. In addition, since the game is designed around characters taking short rests during the day, it is pretty clear that this should be considered "normal" activity.
As always, decision is up to the DM, but I don't see any support in RAW for a short rest interrupting or preventing concentration.
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Looking at it from the other perspective - is concentration strenuous? No.
A short rest is: "A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."
However, a character can do many strenuous things while concentrating on a spell. They can perform feats of atheletics, acrobatics, stealth or sleight of hand while concentrating on guidance (or pass without trace) or any other spell. The can fight full out, attacking, dodging, keeping an eye on everything an opponent is doing. A cleric concentrating on spirit guardians is just as capable as doing the same things as any other cleric .. while concentrating on a spell. If concentrating on a spell was a strenuous task then it would interfere with other strenuous tasks performed simultaneously. It doesn't. In fact, concentrating on a spell is so un-strenuous that it has absolutely NO effect on anything else the character tries to do at the same time.
On what basis would a DM decide concentrating on a spell is more strenuous that eating, drinking, reading or tending to wounds? A character could eat or drink while fighting if they wanted to use an object interaction for it. They could do this in addition to concentrating on a spell. Why would concentrating on a spell be any more strenuous than these activities?
Anyway, the rules don't define exactly how strenuous concentrating on a spell might be. However, since concentrating on a spell has absolutely no effect on ANY other activity a character might choose to do - fight, perform an intricate skill check, read, eat, drink - I really don't see any rules justification for saying that concentration is a strenuous activity. However, as always, decisions like this are up to the individual DM.
Completely agree, at the end of the day DM can rule how they like, but its pretty clear that it leans toward concentration does not break a short rest. Sage Advice from Mike Mearls also stated this so i'd always assume you can unless the DM (prior to the start of the campaign) says they don't allow this (during the campaign would be a bad way to find out).
Hi David42, thanks for your thoughts on the topic. The first half of the post is irrelevant obviously since we already agree that attempting to rest does not break concentration. Most of the events which break concentration are explicitly listed in the rules.
You make some decent points in the second half of your post, but these points are not good enough to convince me of your ruling. The biggest problem is that your main point has a logical fallacy:
However, a character can do many strenuous things while concentrating on a spell . . . If concentrating on a spell was a strenuous task then it would interfere with other strenuous tasks performed simultaneously.
In fact, this is false. Just because someone is mentally and physically capable of multitasking does NOT mean that the original task, or ANY of the tasks involved are not strenuous in nature. There are numerous examples in real life that refute your argument. To choose one out of the sky, consider a football (soccer) player during a match. That player can sprint at full speed while mentally tracking the movements of multiple players, analyzing the situation to determine the best course of action, and then jumping into the air and violently kicking the ball -- all more or less simultaneously. It can be argued that every one of those tasks are mentally or physically strenuous, at least to the level of being unrestful activities.
To further explain my own personal view (since the rules are silent on the matter) on what sort of effort is involved in concentrating, I will now contrive an analogy. A major factor for how I view concentration is just from understanding the common English language usage of the word and what it means in real life, which is how many of this game's terms are defined and used. (For example, there is typically not much argument for what the term "walking" means in the game even though it is not spelled out in the game exactly what it is -- we simply think about what the word "walking" means in real life and apply that concept to the game. The same is true for the term "concentration" in my opinion.) Now I know that my analogy will be flawed, but I am hoping that we can resist the urge to pick apart the analogy itself and simply make the connections to the topic at hand that the analogy is meant to illustrate.
Suppose you have a demanding office job. Lots of time pressure, phone calls, stressful meetings and so on. It is mentally draining. But, in the middle of your work day you get a 1 hour lunch break. During this time, you get away from work, walk to the cafeteria and get some food, and you sit down for a relaxing meal, perhaps while reading a novel. This is mentally rejuvenating, and allows you to tackle the rest of the work day with full mental resources.
Now, you also have a special skill that you've developed and when your boss observes you doing this he is impressed. You gain a bonus to impressing your boss while this activity is ongoing. To do this, you put on an earpiece and initiate a phone call. While this phone call is ongoing, every minute a voice recites a random 10-digit phone number. But, you have no pen and paper and no electronic device with which to write down this phone number.
Now, think about what this is like in real life if you've ever been in this situation -- you must recite the phone number in your mind over and over again so that you don't forget it while searching for someplace to write it down -- you must concentrate on keeping this phone number in your mind. But, you can also walk and chew gum while doing this. While you are walking, someone might bump into you. This may or may not cause you to forget the phone number depending on your CON check. If you are particularly proficient at this task you could probably have a conversation, you could probably exercise. You could NOT remember two such phone numbers at the same time. In this case, if you recite the phone number often enough and long enough you could commit it to your long term memory, but this typically does not happen with activities related to spellcasting in D&D.
Back to the scenario. At the end of the minute you will hear a beep and you must recite the phone number out loud. If correct, you will immediately receive a new phone number in your earpiece to memorize for another minute (this contrived portion prevents the long term memory workaround). This repeats every minute. If you fail, the call ends and you lose your bonus to impress your boss who was observing but if you can maintain this phone call the bonus is ongoing.
One day, you've had a stressful and exhausting morning, but you initiate this phone call a few minutes before your lunch break. You maintain this phone call during your lunch break while walking and sitting and eating. But it's especially important to you to maintain this call -- if you succeed you will be promoted but if you fail you will be fired.
How restful was my lunch break? Am I fully energized and mentally rejuvenated to tackle the second half of my work day?
Suppose you're reading a book, do you concentrate on that task or not? How are you taking in any information if you're not concentrating on reading and comprehending what you are reading. Reading is allowed during a short rest. So i'd argue, if you're reading, you're not retaining any information because that requires concentration and you can't concentrate during a short rest per your rules.
Also, like David said, you're using concentration in a specific way that YOU view it as in personal life. Concentration can be difficult like a high stress job, or it can be something as simple as reading a book. You choose to make it represent the more difficult aspect to match your already decided point of view. But in DnD how could someone do the equivalent to a high stress and intensive job for 24 hours straight with no repercussions? Because as mentioned you can concentrate on a spell for 24 hours while doing normal activities and doing high intensive activities all with absolutely no penalty, that would not occur with your real life example.
Again, your examples allow for only small things to distract you while in DnD you can do ANYTHING while concentrating except cast another concentration spell. You can't do anything while trying to remember a phone number, for example, name of 4 other phone numbers in a row (don't have to remember them, just name them) thats equivalent to casting 4 non concentration spells in a row. Your concentration on the spell would be perfectly fine, but your phone number would be forgotten most likely. They're just not even close to the same example and its grasping to try to make it fit your narrative.
I do agree with your first comment, its your point of view to reference it this way, and basically that is where it will end because the majority of people (and Mike Mears) will disagree with you, but you get to DM however you like.
To respond to the question of "reading", as listed in the rules for short and long rests -- in my opinion this implies a manner of reading which is relaxing and restful such as casual reading for pleasure. My contrived scenario above even included the usual routine of reading a novel during the lunch break. I could have said it was a magazine or a newspaper. This type of reading is allowed.
In contrast, if we were hunched over a complex text book with a highlighter while cramming for a final exam, that would not be mentally refreshing -- it would be mentally exhausting. We already know this from our real life experiences of reading for pleasure and studying for final exams. This second manner of reading would not be allowed during a rest. Perhaps we should call such an activity "studying" instead of "reading" to preemptively avoid an argument about it. It should be noted that there are exceptions to this explicitly stated in the rules however -- for example, a Wizard may read / study his spellbook during a long rest.
I agree with pretty much everything else you said in your last post (I think). Your ruling is totally fine and is supported by RAW. So is mine.
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I think its just an agree to disagree scenario. Its fair to interpret it that way but it is an interpretation, so it would be fair to go the other way as well. I've seen reddit posts asking the same, and there definitely are some who agree with you, they are typically less than majority but definitely are some. To me, why I said i'd argue with the DM about it is, it comes to a point of personal preference only in this matter as short rests don't state (or long rests for that matter) anything about concentrating on a spell. It just specifically states what you can't do "like cast a spell" for example. To think you can't stand guard while concentrating on a spell, or lean against a tree and rest while concentrating on a spell seems odd to me but again to each their own. But the rub is, you're now taking away something from one of your players based solely on your own personal view that could impact their character a great deal and isn't at all game breaking (again most assume you can do this already). This is where a DM can say "I don't like it, but, because its not specifically stated anywhere and you as a player believe its ok to do per the rules i'll allow it". When you play as a Warlock or any other character, you can certainly not use this rule. But to take it away from a player based on personal views to me is not how a DM should conduct a game. Personally, i'd tell my DM "fine, if thats how you feel, please introduce a new character to the group next session because i'm no longer playing a Warlock in your campaign". Just remember its about the players, not about your way or the highway.
Also, sage advice says you can but you're saying "yes you can concentrate during a short rest but you don't get benefits" which doesn't make any sense. If you don't get the benefits then you didn't take a short rest. Sage advice would have clearly just stated you're not taking a short rest if concentrating, or something to that degree. The implication that the idea of a short rest is getting the benefits is obvious it seems.
I'm not really sure why you keep using "personal views" with a negative connotation in this context. That's exactly how a DM is required to rule on a situation where there is nothing specified in the rules one way or the other. The DM uses his personal views about how it should work in his game and makes a ruling based on that. How else would you make such a decision?
I'm also not sure why you think that disallowing concentration during a rest takes something away from a player? Why should a Warlock or any other character be allowed to have full resources and also an ongoing spell effect active "for free" when getting started on their adventure after a period of downtime? To me, that's not something that makes sense for any character to have in the first place so nothing is being taken away. If you want the spell effect then go ahead and use the resource and cast the spell. Casting a leveled spell for free makes no sense to me.
It is important to notice that the list of activities that you can't do includes: "similar adventuring activity". In my opinion, concentration falls into this category. Other DM's will say otherwise. There is no explicit guidance in the rules on this -- this is a DM call for their game.
Not necessarily. Sometimes the party is taking a rest and some characters get the benefits of the rest and others do not -- perhaps those characters don't need the rest so they are making more productive use of that time, for example.
Again, a Sage Advice "ruling" in a case like this is irrelevant. They are not really interpreting the rules as written in this case -- there is no rule. The developer is simply offering how he would rule it in his games. There is a difference.
In the end, there really is nothing to argue about in this thread. It is entirely the DM's call. Some will rule that concentration is allowed during a rest and others will rule that it is not. They are both correct.
Personal views as in it doesn't state you can't and Sage Advice says its fine. Its only negative to me when the interpretation takes something small but meaningful away from a player that in no way breaks the game. If there was Sage Advice against it i'd say fine, its clear it was meant to not work. But with no clear indication PLUS Sage Advice saying yes, to me that leans in favour of the player and now its taking something away which lessens enjoyment for the player but gives the DM more authority I guess.
At the very least, if your player had already rolled a Walrock and was playing assuming this was ok to do and when they eventually go to do it you say no, i'd hope you'd give in and say this campaign i'll allow it but next time so you're aware I don't think you should be allowed. But if you tell the player as soon as they mention they're playing a Warlock prior to the campaign starting, sure thats fine, a DM can homebrew anything as long as they're upfront about it.
Sorry, so you think his question was basically "I know its not possible for me to get the benefits of a short rest with Hex up, but can I concentrate on Hex while I pretend to take a short rest?" and Mike Mears says "Yes, as long as you don't sleep you can pretend to take a short rest with no added benefits" lol. Thats an odd interpretation since not getting the benefits of a short rest is equivalent to absolutely nothing. So the answer is of course you can concentrate on a spell doing absolutely nothing. That explanation made me laugh thanks.
Sage Advice is the best thing we have to interpreting rules that are no clearly stated or vague. To ignore them is fine (its homebrew i'd say) but fine again as long as its upfront prior to campaign. But if its a matter of one person has Sage Advice saying they can, and the DM has their view that they can't, well seems hard to side with the DM if its happening in the moment. But again, a good DM would allow it and then next campaign say no more.
Yes, its a DM's call, but I think you need to give up on the Sage Advice argument of it, that was funny but not convincing.
Why would you call my ruling homebrew? Please state the rule as written that conflicts with my ruling.
Ok, since my use of the phrase "gain the benefits of a short rest" seems to be baffling you to the point where you are completely putting words in my mouth that I did not say or even imply then let's just forget I said that and assume that I just said "take a short rest" since you seem to like that better for some reason. To me, that phrase might be interpreted to mean "attempting a short rest" or "starting a short rest" which would not be accurate but fine. I also didn't want to say "completing a short rest" for similar reasons. My words tend to be chosen precisely but if they are going over your head and causing a tizzy then fine we can simplify. The idea is that if you are concentrating for the first five minutes of the rest then that time doesn't "count towards" gaining the benefits and so you'd have to rest for "an extra 5 minutes" on the back end before you benefit. But sure, "take a rest" is fine.
A warlock is easily balanced vs other classes without being allowed to have a free spell active while also at full resources. I think those players would be just fine.
This is like proving there's no god. The onus is on you. If it doesn't state concentration breaks a short rest, I don't have to prove it doesn't, you have to prove it does. I provided Sage Advice stating the interpretation is that it doesn't, you have not.
No matter what wording you use its nonsense. It doesn't matter if you say "get benefits" or "take a rest" or anything. The point is there are two things that can happen, you take a short rest and get benefits, you do not take a short rest and get nothing. You're odd point was "sometimes players don't take a short rest because they don't need it", umm ok what dose that have to do with anything we're talking about? Do you think Mike Mearls thought the guy asking the question meant "if my friends are taking a short rest but I choose not to because I can't get benefits of it, can I still hold concentration" lol. Phrase it however you like, its a nonsense argument.
Not sure why then, Hex, a spell that can last 24 hours, that was made for a Warlock who depends on short rests, but would break during any short rest, despite Dungeon Master guide stating an average 2 short rests per day.
It really isn't, its one of the most complained about classes in the game (excluding Monk) regarding pact magic and lack of spell slots. They would be fine yes, i'm just saying why take something away that is just based on opinion when you can give a player something a creator of the game said was ok to do. But thats some DM's for you I guess, power trips.
You need to knock it off with your obsession of my use of the phrase "gain the benefits of a short rest". It wasn't even an important detail in the point that I was making. I was only using that phrase because that's what it actually says in the rulebook so I was staying consistent with that. In case you haven't read the rules:
This is false. A rulebook cannot possibly include an example for every conceivable activity. That's why the rulebook explicitly disallows an entire category of activities called "similar adventuring activity". Why do you think those words are in there? Just to increase the wordcount of the book? No. It is because similar adventuring activity is not allowed while resting.
How would you rule as to whether or not the following activities are too strenuous to perform while resting:
-- Running a marathon
-- Doing 5,000 pushups while wearing a 100 pound backpack
-- Swimming across a lake as fast as you can
-- Cutting down a grove of trees with an axe
-- Climbing up a 1000 foot rope
-- Throwing a full load of 90 pound bales of hay onto a large trailer
-- Building a stone wall
But wait! None of these activities are specifically listed in the rulebook so they must all be non-strenuous activities that can be performed during resting! Right!!???
This has already been explained. I am not going to bother to cut-and-paste the answer. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.
LOL c'mon man.
lol what? The reason I mentioned your phrasing is only because you complained in the previous post about different ways to say it, my point was any way you use it is the same so your phasing DOESN'T MATTER. But i'm sure me saying it doesn't matter means you're going to complain again saying "all you can do is focus on the one way I said that" lol geeze read man.
You're stating a long rest rules not short rest. This is not about what does or doesn't break a long rest. Long rests and short rests are not equivalent as much as you need them to be to prove your point. If we're going by rules, concentration states "dong normal activities like moving and attacking don't break concentration" so you can do normal activities fine without issue, normal like eating, drinking, reading, tending to wounds?
Comparing concentrating on a spell to a marathon is a stretch since you can do anything while concentrating on spell, (except cast another concentration spell) where as you can't do anything running a marathon. I can sit down, eat, be on guard, drink, read, heal myself, etc all while concentrating, everything that is listed in a short rest can be done while concentrating (except sleep per Sage Advice which we pretend doesn't exist so we can make rules up ourselves). And apparently I can do all this for 24 hours straight due to Hex and Hunters Mark lasting that long, is my character having a mental breakdown doing something so strenuous for that long? or is it more likely concentrating isn't that strenuous, has never been stated it is, which is why 24 hour spells exist. BTW you can build a stonewall while on a short rest, just concentrate on the Wall of Stone spell.
Also, there are reasons concentrating on a spell would be useful during a short rest (Hunter's Mark and Hex oddly designed for long durations up to 24 hours) where there is no spells I can think of designed to accommodate running a marathon during a short rest, but maybe you can find some?
You're explanations are grasps at best and do not reflect the standard play or play designed by WotC as stated taking 2 short rests per day on average. But I do love laughing at your "well sometimes people take a short rest and others don't need it so they don't take it so thats why it makes sense" haha
So you're telling me if a player of yours assumed they could concentrate during a short rest based on spells like Hex designed that way, nothing in the rules calling concentration strenuous, Mike Mearls saying yes you can concentrate on Hex while taking a short rest, and you say no, you didn't take something away they assumed they had? Huh what an awesome way to view life, must be easy for you.
I disagree :) ... and now I understand why a thread from the spring on short rests and concentration just got resurrected.
Here was my answer in the previous thread if you want the details:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/166002-can-you-concentrate-during-short-rest?comment=23
TL;DR: There is an explicit list of things that may break concentration -
"Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration:
The DM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you’re on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell."
Resting is NOT one of the factors that break concentration (in addition resting is certainly not as strenuous as being hit by a wave on a storm tossed ship). Going to sleep and becoming incapacitated WOULD explicitly break concentration (so don't nap on your short rest) but sitting around eating, drinking or reading during a short rest is far less strenuous than attacking or moving during combat. In addition, since the game is designed around characters taking short rests during the day, it is pretty clear that this should be considered "normal" activity.
As always, decision is up to the DM, but I don't see any support in RAW for a short rest interrupting or preventing concentration.
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Looking at it from the other perspective - is concentration strenuous? No.
A short rest is: "A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."
However, a character can do many strenuous things while concentrating on a spell. They can perform feats of atheletics, acrobatics, stealth or sleight of hand while concentrating on guidance (or pass without trace) or any other spell. The can fight full out, attacking, dodging, keeping an eye on everything an opponent is doing. A cleric concentrating on spirit guardians is just as capable as doing the same things as any other cleric .. while concentrating on a spell. If concentrating on a spell was a strenuous task then it would interfere with other strenuous tasks performed simultaneously. It doesn't. In fact, concentrating on a spell is so un-strenuous that it has absolutely NO effect on anything else the character tries to do at the same time.
On what basis would a DM decide concentrating on a spell is more strenuous that eating, drinking, reading or tending to wounds? A character could eat or drink while fighting if they wanted to use an object interaction for it. They could do this in addition to concentrating on a spell. Why would concentrating on a spell be any more strenuous than these activities?
Anyway, the rules don't define exactly how strenuous concentrating on a spell might be. However, since concentrating on a spell has absolutely no effect on ANY other activity a character might choose to do - fight, perform an intricate skill check, read, eat, drink - I really don't see any rules justification for saying that concentration is a strenuous activity. However, as always, decisions like this are up to the individual DM.
Completely agree, at the end of the day DM can rule how they like, but its pretty clear that it leans toward concentration does not break a short rest. Sage Advice from Mike Mearls also stated this so i'd always assume you can unless the DM (prior to the start of the campaign) says they don't allow this (during the campaign would be a bad way to find out).
Hi David42, thanks for your thoughts on the topic. The first half of the post is irrelevant obviously since we already agree that attempting to rest does not break concentration. Most of the events which break concentration are explicitly listed in the rules.
You make some decent points in the second half of your post, but these points are not good enough to convince me of your ruling. The biggest problem is that your main point has a logical fallacy:
In fact, this is false. Just because someone is mentally and physically capable of multitasking does NOT mean that the original task, or ANY of the tasks involved are not strenuous in nature. There are numerous examples in real life that refute your argument. To choose one out of the sky, consider a football (soccer) player during a match. That player can sprint at full speed while mentally tracking the movements of multiple players, analyzing the situation to determine the best course of action, and then jumping into the air and violently kicking the ball -- all more or less simultaneously. It can be argued that every one of those tasks are mentally or physically strenuous, at least to the level of being unrestful activities.
To further explain my own personal view (since the rules are silent on the matter) on what sort of effort is involved in concentrating, I will now contrive an analogy. A major factor for how I view concentration is just from understanding the common English language usage of the word and what it means in real life, which is how many of this game's terms are defined and used. (For example, there is typically not much argument for what the term "walking" means in the game even though it is not spelled out in the game exactly what it is -- we simply think about what the word "walking" means in real life and apply that concept to the game. The same is true for the term "concentration" in my opinion.) Now I know that my analogy will be flawed, but I am hoping that we can resist the urge to pick apart the analogy itself and simply make the connections to the topic at hand that the analogy is meant to illustrate.
Suppose you have a demanding office job. Lots of time pressure, phone calls, stressful meetings and so on. It is mentally draining. But, in the middle of your work day you get a 1 hour lunch break. During this time, you get away from work, walk to the cafeteria and get some food, and you sit down for a relaxing meal, perhaps while reading a novel. This is mentally rejuvenating, and allows you to tackle the rest of the work day with full mental resources.
Now, you also have a special skill that you've developed and when your boss observes you doing this he is impressed. You gain a bonus to impressing your boss while this activity is ongoing. To do this, you put on an earpiece and initiate a phone call. While this phone call is ongoing, every minute a voice recites a random 10-digit phone number. But, you have no pen and paper and no electronic device with which to write down this phone number.
Now, think about what this is like in real life if you've ever been in this situation -- you must recite the phone number in your mind over and over again so that you don't forget it while searching for someplace to write it down -- you must concentrate on keeping this phone number in your mind. But, you can also walk and chew gum while doing this. While you are walking, someone might bump into you. This may or may not cause you to forget the phone number depending on your CON check. If you are particularly proficient at this task you could probably have a conversation, you could probably exercise. You could NOT remember two such phone numbers at the same time. In this case, if you recite the phone number often enough and long enough you could commit it to your long term memory, but this typically does not happen with activities related to spellcasting in D&D.
Back to the scenario. At the end of the minute you will hear a beep and you must recite the phone number out loud. If correct, you will immediately receive a new phone number in your earpiece to memorize for another minute (this contrived portion prevents the long term memory workaround). This repeats every minute. If you fail, the call ends and you lose your bonus to impress your boss who was observing but if you can maintain this phone call the bonus is ongoing.
One day, you've had a stressful and exhausting morning, but you initiate this phone call a few minutes before your lunch break. You maintain this phone call during your lunch break while walking and sitting and eating. But it's especially important to you to maintain this call -- if you succeed you will be promoted but if you fail you will be fired.
How restful was my lunch break? Am I fully energized and mentally rejuvenated to tackle the second half of my work day?
Suppose you're reading a book, do you concentrate on that task or not? How are you taking in any information if you're not concentrating on reading and comprehending what you are reading. Reading is allowed during a short rest. So i'd argue, if you're reading, you're not retaining any information because that requires concentration and you can't concentrate during a short rest per your rules.
Also, like David said, you're using concentration in a specific way that YOU view it as in personal life. Concentration can be difficult like a high stress job, or it can be something as simple as reading a book. You choose to make it represent the more difficult aspect to match your already decided point of view. But in DnD how could someone do the equivalent to a high stress and intensive job for 24 hours straight with no repercussions? Because as mentioned you can concentrate on a spell for 24 hours while doing normal activities and doing high intensive activities all with absolutely no penalty, that would not occur with your real life example.
Again, your examples allow for only small things to distract you while in DnD you can do ANYTHING while concentrating except cast another concentration spell. You can't do anything while trying to remember a phone number, for example, name of 4 other phone numbers in a row (don't have to remember them, just name them) thats equivalent to casting 4 non concentration spells in a row. Your concentration on the spell would be perfectly fine, but your phone number would be forgotten most likely. They're just not even close to the same example and its grasping to try to make it fit your narrative.
I do agree with your first comment, its your point of view to reference it this way, and basically that is where it will end because the majority of people (and Mike Mears) will disagree with you, but you get to DM however you like.
To respond to the question of "reading", as listed in the rules for short and long rests -- in my opinion this implies a manner of reading which is relaxing and restful such as casual reading for pleasure. My contrived scenario above even included the usual routine of reading a novel during the lunch break. I could have said it was a magazine or a newspaper. This type of reading is allowed.
In contrast, if we were hunched over a complex text book with a highlighter while cramming for a final exam, that would not be mentally refreshing -- it would be mentally exhausting. We already know this from our real life experiences of reading for pleasure and studying for final exams. This second manner of reading would not be allowed during a rest. Perhaps we should call such an activity "studying" instead of "reading" to preemptively avoid an argument about it. It should be noted that there are exceptions to this explicitly stated in the rules however -- for example, a Wizard may read / study his spellbook during a long rest.
I agree with pretty much everything else you said in your last post (I think). Your ruling is totally fine and is supported by RAW. So is mine.