So the rules of the shield master feat specify that the attack action must be taken and then a bonus action can be used to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you. It does not specify that the bonus action must be taken immediately after the attack action. Also, according to the PHB shoving a creature is "using the attack action." That brings me to my question: With the shield master feat can I make a shove attack against a creature to push it 5 feet back, walk forward 5 feet, and use my bonus action to shove it again? The other question is can I use my action to shove a creature 5 feet and then my bonus action to shove a different creature next to me 5 feet as well? Basically what this comes down to is whether double shoving is allowed.
I don't remember what the consensus was, but I think the sage advise is that it's: attack action resolves **then** bonus shove from the feat. (I think that nerfs it too much, but **shrug**)
Short Answer: Yes because shoving is considered an attack. and it also says that a shove is an attack.
Shield master: "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield."
I think you would have had to attack first so you can get the trigger.
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Yeah I actually took it from a tweet from Jeremy Crawford he say's one thing then reverses it my bad, Idk really but if that's the case then it would be No.
Yeah I actually took it from a tweet from Jeremy Crawford he say's one thing then reverses it my bad, Idk really but if that's the case then it would be No.
Basically, he runs it that you can BA first, but that is not the RAW.
The advice that doesn't make it into the SAC can only be considered advice/suggestions/how JC does it. Granted, the original tweets precede the SAC, but this is how it works going forward.
Yeah I actually took it from a tweet from Jeremy Crawford he say's one thing then reverses it my bad, Idk really but if that's the case then it would be No.
Basically, he runs it that you can BA first, but that is not the RAW.
The advice that doesn't make it into the SAC can only be considered advice/suggestions/how JC does it. Granted, the original tweets precede the SAC, but this is how it works going forward.
Yes. The way it was resolved in the SAC was that a trigger has to happen before you get the bonus action tied to the trigger. This applies to any bonus action tied to a trigger - not just shield master.
When applied to shield master - it then requires that the character take the attack action in order to enable the bonus action from shield master. However, RAW, there is nothing in the rules that says the character has to FINISH the attack action before triggering the bonus action - they just have to "take the attack action" - taking the attack action is satisfied by making at least one attack. In addition, bonus actions can be taken at ANY time during the turn when you have one available. As a result, a character could make one attack, trigger the bonus action shove from shield master and use the bonus action to shove a target then use their extra attack feature if they have one to make another attack since they took the attack action.
In the end it is up to the DM how they want to run it but RAW, all "taking the attack action" requires is making one attack though if a DM wants to rule that "taking the attack action" requires the character to complete it that is entirely up to the DM and is also a valid reading of what "taking the attack action" could mean.
To the OP - yes using an attack to shove a creature counts as "taking the attack action" which then grants the bonus action from shield master which can be used at any time, before, after or during movement and before or after any attacks granted by the extra attack feature (at DM discretion).
P.S. There are some nasty long threads with folks discussing this :)
P.P.S. One thing to keep in mind is that this doesn't work as well with warlocks with the thirsting blade feature - that feature allows the warlock an additional attack with their pact weapon specifically - they don't get two general attacks - so they could shove with the attack action and trigger a shield master shove but they don't get any additional attacks since they used their one normal attack to shove in the first place.
Short Answer: Yes because shoving is considered an attack. and it also says that a shove is an attack.
Shield master: "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield."
I think you would have had to attack first so you can get the trigger.
At its core, this question has been thoroughly vetted as one this forum has no consensus on: what constitutes taking the attack action? There are quite a few opinions on this, with varying degrees of both consistency with other RAW and internal consistency within the opinion. Here's what little we do appear to know:
You can take the Attack action without performing an attack. As an example (there is absolutely more than one in the game), a level 3 Tasha's Beast Master can take the Attack action in order to order their Primal Companion to take the Attack action. The ranger in question will not perform an attack.
You can perform a Bonus Action inside an Attack action. Continuing to use our TBM example, at level 5 our ranger could make an attack, bonus action command the companion, then make another attack.
It is significantly harder to determine when you qualify as having taken the Attack action in this circumstance. To the best of my knowledge, there is consensus that you have taken the action by the time you do any 1 thing the action provides. This means there is consensus that two-weapon fighting (which only allows the bonus action attack after "taking" the Attack action) allows the bonus action attack to happen between your 2 attacks if you have standard Extra Attack. So a level 5 tasha's beast master could attack with a scimitar, then twf attack with a short sword, then order their companion to attack. The opposite ruling means that EA prevents you from you making your TWF attack until your Attack action activities are done. To the best of my knowledge both rulings are consistent with the RAW.
What we're absolutely certain we don't know is if you can take the Attack action to do a thing, then pre-empt that thing with a Bonus Action - that is, can you basically declare the Attack action as your intent, "taking" the Attack action but not having done anything yet, do a Bonus Action that requires taking the Attack action, and then perform the activities your Attack action enables? Opinions are divided and there is literally no RAW covering it.
The rules are written in plain/common language that assumes common sense interpretation unless otherwise clarified. Common sense would assume an action is "taken" only if it is actually performed, the SAC directly supports this.
The RAW also only directly mentions interrupting an action specifically by splitting an extra attack with movement. Bonus actions and reactions interrupting an action by choice is only assumed, not stated by a general rule.
There really is no reason to assume you can declare an action then do something else that require that action to have been done other than "I want to" or "but I read about it on Twitter."
If the rules don't say you can do it, it usually means you can't.
The RAW also only directly mentions interrupting an action specifically by splitting an extra attack with movement. Bonus actions and reactions interrupting an action by choice is only assumed, not stated by a general rule.
That’s not true. The general rule is that reactions occur right after their trigger. If the trigger is “someone makes an attack against me,” that will necessarily interrupt the Attack action if that action involves multiple attacks. The general rule is that bonus actions are taken whenever you decide to take them (on your turn). There’s no limitation on this that says “except in the middle of another action.”
There is an exception for bonus actions that are granted by some trigger, which is indeed the case with shield master! But you brought up general rules, and it’s important to clarify that yes, there absolutely are general rules that allow reactions and bonus actions to interrupt actions.
If the rules don't say you can do it, it usually means you can't.
SagaTympana is absolutely right, but you're also... well, not wrong per se, because you're technically correct, it's just that the rules say you can do literally anything:
In other words, if no rule says you can do something and no rule says you can't, it's explicitly up to your DM, not a default of yes or no. RAW silence does not imply RAW no in the general case of determining what you can and can't do. That's why you can e.g. do pushups, despite no rule explicitly stating you can do pushups.
If the rules don't say you can do it, it usually means you can't.
SagaTympana is absolutely right, but you're also... well, not wrong per se, because you're technically correct, it's just that the rules say you can do literally anything:
In other words, if no rule says you can do something and no rule says you can't, it's explicitly up to your DM, not a default of yes or no. RAW silence does not imply RAW no in the general case of determining what you can and can't do. That's why you can e.g. do pushups, despite no rule explicitly stating you can do pushups.
Yes, but that only says you can use your action for "things not covered by the actions in this section," which already covered the most common actions. It is permissive (which was my point), but not all encompassing (as you seem to be indicating).
Improvising an action doesn't mean you can do anything unless a rule says you can't. For example, it doesn't let you use your bonus action to breath fire just because "no rule says you can't."
And it doesn't even apply to whether actions can be declared but not performed and that count as taken.
The RAW also only directly mentions interrupting an action specifically by splitting an extra attack with movement. Bonus actions and reactions interrupting an action by choice is only assumed, not stated by a general rule.
That’s not true. The general rule is that reactions occur right after their trigger. If the trigger is “someone makes an attack against me,” that will necessarily interrupt the Attack action if that action involves multiple attacks. The general rule is that bonus actions are taken whenever you decide to take them (on your turn). There’s no limitation on this that says “except in the middle of another action.”
There is an exception for bonus actions that are granted by some trigger, which is indeed the case with shield master! But you brought up general rules, and it’s important to clarify that yes, there absolutely are general rules that allow reactions and bonus actions to interrupt actions.
Generally, "after the trigger" does no interrupt the action that triggered it.
Attacks are usually the only specific cases where there are multiple in 1 action. Triggering from an attack is also a specific case. As we know specific beats general, so I stand by what I said.
You're right, but about something else. We're both right.
1) Reactions can certainly take place in the middle of an action. Casting shield occurs after the attack hits but before it takes effect. It is a very specific example where a reaction actually happens in the middle of one attack of the attack action. Even just a readied action to make an attack if someone attacks you will trigger after the first attack but before any additional attacks provided by the attack action - thus occuring in the middle of the attack action. Similarly, counterspell is a reaction that occurs in the middle of the cast a spell action.
So there are certainly lots of examples where reactions can be taken in the middle of an action if they are appropriately triggered.
There are no rules on reaction timing other than the one from the SAC indicating that the trigger completes before the reaction happens unless there are specific rules otherwise. A trigger completing is NOT the same as an action being completed.
2) The general rules on bonus actions are even more clear.
"You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action."
You choose when to take it. No where in any rule in 5e does it state that actions are atomic. Any actions. The attack action can be specifically split up by the rules allowing movement to happen between attacks.
Most of the original actions a player comes up with have multiple parts. I jump, grab the chandelier, swing across the room to the balcony. They could choose to execute a bonus action at any time during that action assuming that they have the hands free or whatever else they need. (It doesn't make sense to declare all the PHB actions atomic while not also making any action a player comes up with - which is one of the PHB action choices, also atomic - it is all one action after all).
A fighter/rogue could attack, move, cunning action hide, move and attack again.
The only constraints on bonus actions are that you have to have something that grants the bonus action, and you only get one - other than that the rules explicitly state that they can be taken at any time during your turn.
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Rules only do what they say and there is nothing that says an "attack action involving multiple attacks, movement, possibly traps going off, triggered actions etc" is atomic in any way. However, there are rules in which reactions are taken after their trigger EVEN if that is in the middle of an action and there are general rules stating a bonus action can be taken any time in your turn if you have one available. A DM can change things up however they want but I don't know of any rule in 5e that makes actions atomic.
So the rules of the shield master feat specify that the attack action must be taken and then a bonus action can be used to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you. It does not specify that the bonus action must be taken immediately after the attack action. Also, according to the PHB shoving a creature is "using the attack action." That brings me to my question: With the shield master feat can I make a shove attack against a creature to push it 5 feet back, walk forward 5 feet, and use my bonus action to shove it again? The other question is can I use my action to shove a creature 5 feet and then my bonus action to shove a different creature next to me 5 feet as well? Basically what this comes down to is whether double shoving is allowed.
Short Answer: Yes because shoving is considered an attack. and it also says that a shove is an attack.
Dont see why not, as long as you do one the regular way with your action, and the other using shield master.
But also, you have to make your action shove attack first as shield master specifies (you do this correctly in both examples).
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HERE.Actually as long as you are going to attack the creature you can bonus action first and then attack.
If you want your eyes to bleed, there's this thread about the order of things:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/15344-shield-master-feat-bonus-action-shove
I don't remember what the consensus was, but I think the sage advise is that it's: attack action resolves **then** bonus shove from the feat. (I think that nerfs it too much, but **shrug**)
That’s why it’s better get Polearm Master, then shove prone with your regular action and follow-up with a bonus action attack.
Shield master: "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield."
I think you would have had to attack first so you can get the trigger.
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HERE.Yeah I actually took it from a tweet from Jeremy Crawford he say's one thing then reverses it my bad, Idk really but if that's the case then it would be No.
Basically, he runs it that you can BA first, but that is not the RAW.
The advice that doesn't make it into the SAC can only be considered advice/suggestions/how JC does it. Granted, the original tweets precede the SAC, but this is how it works going forward.
Yes. The way it was resolved in the SAC was that a trigger has to happen before you get the bonus action tied to the trigger. This applies to any bonus action tied to a trigger - not just shield master.
When applied to shield master - it then requires that the character take the attack action in order to enable the bonus action from shield master. However, RAW, there is nothing in the rules that says the character has to FINISH the attack action before triggering the bonus action - they just have to "take the attack action" - taking the attack action is satisfied by making at least one attack. In addition, bonus actions can be taken at ANY time during the turn when you have one available. As a result, a character could make one attack, trigger the bonus action shove from shield master and use the bonus action to shove a target then use their extra attack feature if they have one to make another attack since they took the attack action.
In the end it is up to the DM how they want to run it but RAW, all "taking the attack action" requires is making one attack though if a DM wants to rule that "taking the attack action" requires the character to complete it that is entirely up to the DM and is also a valid reading of what "taking the attack action" could mean.
To the OP - yes using an attack to shove a creature counts as "taking the attack action" which then grants the bonus action from shield master which can be used at any time, before, after or during movement and before or after any attacks granted by the extra attack feature (at DM discretion).
P.S. There are some nasty long threads with folks discussing this :)
P.P.S. One thing to keep in mind is that this doesn't work as well with warlocks with the thirsting blade feature - that feature allows the warlock an additional attack with their pact weapon specifically - they don't get two general attacks - so they could shove with the attack action and trigger a shield master shove but they don't get any additional attacks since they used their one normal attack to shove in the first place.
What David said.
At its core, this question has been thoroughly vetted as one this forum has no consensus on: what constitutes taking the attack action? There are quite a few opinions on this, with varying degrees of both consistency with other RAW and internal consistency within the opinion. Here's what little we do appear to know:
What we're absolutely certain we don't know is if you can take the Attack action to do a thing, then pre-empt that thing with a Bonus Action - that is, can you basically declare the Attack action as your intent, "taking" the Attack action but not having done anything yet, do a Bonus Action that requires taking the Attack action, and then perform the activities your Attack action enables? Opinions are divided and there is literally no RAW covering it.
The rules are written in plain/common language that assumes common sense interpretation unless otherwise clarified. Common sense would assume an action is "taken" only if it is actually performed, the SAC directly supports this.
The RAW also only directly mentions interrupting an action specifically by splitting an extra attack with movement. Bonus actions and reactions interrupting an action by choice is only assumed, not stated by a general rule.
There really is no reason to assume you can declare an action then do something else that require that action to have been done other than "I want to" or "but I read about it on Twitter."
If the rules don't say you can do it, it usually means you can't.
That’s not true. The general rule is that reactions occur right after their trigger. If the trigger is “someone makes an attack against me,” that will necessarily interrupt the Attack action if that action involves multiple attacks. The general rule is that bonus actions are taken whenever you decide to take them (on your turn). There’s no limitation on this that says “except in the middle of another action.”
There is an exception for bonus actions that are granted by some trigger, which is indeed the case with shield master! But you brought up general rules, and it’s important to clarify that yes, there absolutely are general rules that allow reactions and bonus actions to interrupt actions.
SagaTympana is absolutely right, but you're also... well, not wrong per se, because you're technically correct, it's just that the rules say you can do literally anything:
The only limits to the actions you can attempt are your imagination and your character’s ability scores. [...] When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the DM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure.
In other words, if no rule says you can do something and no rule says you can't, it's explicitly up to your DM, not a default of yes or no. RAW silence does not imply RAW no in the general case of determining what you can and can't do. That's why you can e.g. do pushups, despite no rule explicitly stating you can do pushups.
Yes, but that only says you can use your action for "things not covered by the actions in this section," which already covered the most common actions. It is permissive (which was my point), but not all encompassing (as you seem to be indicating).
Improvising an action doesn't mean you can do anything unless a rule says you can't. For example, it doesn't let you use your bonus action to breath fire just because "no rule says you can't."
And it doesn't even apply to whether actions can be declared but not performed and that count as taken.
Generally, "after the trigger" does no interrupt the action that triggered it.
Attacks are usually the only specific cases where there are multiple in 1 action. Triggering from an attack is also a specific case. As we know specific beats general, so I stand by what I said.
You're right, but about something else. We're both right.
Just to add to Saga's comments ..
1) Reactions can certainly take place in the middle of an action. Casting shield occurs after the attack hits but before it takes effect. It is a very specific example where a reaction actually happens in the middle of one attack of the attack action. Even just a readied action to make an attack if someone attacks you will trigger after the first attack but before any additional attacks provided by the attack action - thus occuring in the middle of the attack action. Similarly, counterspell is a reaction that occurs in the middle of the cast a spell action.
So there are certainly lots of examples where reactions can be taken in the middle of an action if they are appropriately triggered.
There are no rules on reaction timing other than the one from the SAC indicating that the trigger completes before the reaction happens unless there are specific rules otherwise. A trigger completing is NOT the same as an action being completed.
2) The general rules on bonus actions are even more clear.
"You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action."
You choose when to take it. No where in any rule in 5e does it state that actions are atomic. Any actions. The attack action can be specifically split up by the rules allowing movement to happen between attacks.
Most of the original actions a player comes up with have multiple parts. I jump, grab the chandelier, swing across the room to the balcony. They could choose to execute a bonus action at any time during that action assuming that they have the hands free or whatever else they need. (It doesn't make sense to declare all the PHB actions atomic while not also making any action a player comes up with - which is one of the PHB action choices, also atomic - it is all one action after all).
A fighter/rogue could attack, move, cunning action hide, move and attack again.
The only constraints on bonus actions are that you have to have something that grants the bonus action, and you only get one - other than that the rules explicitly state that they can be taken at any time during your turn.
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Rules only do what they say and there is nothing that says an "attack action involving multiple attacks, movement, possibly traps going off, triggered actions etc" is atomic in any way. However, there are rules in which reactions are taken after their trigger EVEN if that is in the middle of an action and there are general rules stating a bonus action can be taken any time in your turn if you have one available. A DM can change things up however they want but I don't know of any rule in 5e that makes actions atomic.