My question is specifically about the "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you" portion.
I have seen some debate about whether this is fluff/flavor or an actual thing. Is this veil perceptible by others?
Scenario - party enters a room with a few NPCs. Prior to entering PWT is cast by the Druid. Specific intent is to give one party member the +10 stealth so that one PC can sneak around and steal an item. Would the NPCs notice the veil around the Druid (who is not attempting to hide or stealth at all, but actually converse with the NPCs)?
PWT is 'each creature you choose,' so the druid can choose only that creature, and not themselves. With that in mind, I'd read the first sentence as flavor text that assumes the caster is including themselves in the spell, but would not apply to the caster if they choose not to include themselves in the spell.
Except that the text says it includes the caster, "For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks" and has a range of self.
The spell is specifically meant to make you less noticeable, so I doubt the effect is anything obvious. Things like armor not being shiny or klinking while moving. Might give off an eerie vibe because of it.
As for how the spell is worded, I'm pretty sure you can exclude yourself from being a target, but I also think the effect sticks to the caster like an aura and doesn't follow creatures that were within 30 feet when cast. So the druid would have to go with the rogue.
Except that the text says it includes the caster, "For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks" and has a range of self.
No, that means that you can choose yourself as part of the spell. This is common phrasing used across multiple spells to specify 'you can choose yourself with this spell that doesn't have a range of self.'
The spell is specifically meant to make you less noticeable, so I doubt the effect is anything obvious. Things like armor not being shiny or klinking while moving. Might give off an eerie vibe because of it.
As for how the spell is worded, I'm pretty sure you can exclude yourself from being a target, but I also think the effect sticks to the caster like an aura and doesn't follow creatures that were within 30 feet when cast. So the druid would have to go with the rogue.
As far as the druid following the rogue, the bonus is to stealth checks. If the rogue uses that bonus to hide within 30' of the druid and can stay hidden to do the job, then the druid might not need to tag along:
When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
But the other obvious option is to cast PWT, then also wild shape into something so small that you might not be noticed (or can fit into a pocket of the rogue) to stay within 30' of them anyway. If you were within a pocket, that'd probably provide heavy obscurement.
The spell is specifically meant to make you less noticeable, so I doubt the effect is anything obvious. Things like armor not being shiny or klinking while moving. Might give off an eerie vibe because of it.
As for how the spell is worded, I'm pretty sure you can exclude yourself from being a target, but I also think the effect sticks to the caster like an aura and doesn't follow creatures that were within 30 feet when cast. So the druid would have to go with the rogue.
As far as the druid following the rogue, the bonus is to stealth checks. If the rogue uses that bonus to hide within 30' of the druid and can stay hidden to do the job, then the druid might not need to tag along:
When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
But the other obvious option is to cast PWT, then also wild shape into something so small that you might not be noticed (or can fit into a pocket of the rogue) to stay within 30' of them anyway. If you were within a pocket, that'd probably provide heavy obscurement.
Range is not an issue at all. The Druid, however, needs to interact with the NPCs while the rogue is stealthily stealing something.
The spell lists a range of "self" so I guess the thing I want to confirm now is whether or not the Druid can exclude himself from the spell and/or will it be noticeable by others that the spell has been cast while interacting with the Druid.
I mean, the effect of the spell only interacts with stealth, which means if you're not being stealthy, there isn't a noticeable one. Even if the druid did not exclude themselves, without making use of the effect (by making a dexterity (stealth) check) then I'm not sure what you think would happen to the druid.
I mean, the effect of the spell only interacts with stealth, which means if you're not being stealthy, there isn't a noticeable one. Even if the druid did not exclude themselves, without making use of the effect (by making a dexterity (stealth) check) then I'm not sure what you think would happen to the druid.
I would guess that he's still wondering about the part of the spell description ha asked about in the OP.
My question is specifically about the "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you" portion.
To the OP, yes this part is fluff (just as the first line in many spells are). If you cast Pass without Trace on yourself (out of sight) and then simply walk up to someone saying "Hi!" then there should be no noticeable effects for anyone to see.
I interpret Pass without Trace to have perceptible effects on the caster for the duration wether it choose to ne affected by it or not. A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. It means we see can see a veil of shadow and sounds seem to be muffled, this for 1 hour.
I mean, the effect of the spell only interacts with stealth, which means if you're not being stealthy, there isn't a noticeable one. Even if the druid did not exclude themselves, without making use of the effect (by making a dexterity (stealth) check) then I'm not sure what you think would happen to the druid.
I would guess that he's still wondering about the part of the spell description ha asked about in the OP.
And that's what the bolded part is about, isn't it. If the NPCs notice that sphere, then it makes it pretty obvious that something is up which defeats its purpose of the spell. And if you're not being stealthy in it, you are just as easy to interact with.
My question is specifically about the "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you" portion.
I have seen some debate about whether this is fluff/flavor or an actual thing. Is this veil perceptible by others?
Scenario - party enters a room with a few NPCs. Prior to entering PWT is cast by the Druid. Specific intent is to give one party member the +10 stealth so that one PC can sneak around and steal an item. Would the NPCs notice the veil around the Druid (who is not attempting to hide or stealth at all, but actually converse with the NPCs)?
Technically, there's no such thing as "fluff/flavor" text in the way you mean in a spell description - everything in the description that can have rules weight has rules weight in terms of the RAW. However, there is such a thing as text that looks flavorful, has rules weight, and then when you try to implement it as a rule, you realize that there isn't a RAW way to do that, so you need to have your DM interpret/house rule. Here's a very strict RAW interpretation of Pass Without Trace, covering as many rules interactions as I can:
The spell is V/S/M, so anyone who has eyes on the Druid when the spell is cast will see the spell being cast and without special abilities anyone with ears on the Druid will hear it. Per Xanathar's, this means absolutely everyone will know a spell is being cast, although different witnesses will have different levels of competence w.r.t. identifying which specific spell it is.
A veil of shadows and silence radiates from the caster when the spell is cast.
The rules do not state that the veil continues to radiate until the spell ends, as opposed to radiating out once on cast. It's entirely up to your DM which is the case.
My personal opinion agrees with the other people in this thread: the better ruling is that the veil radiates out once and is then done, as the spell can't function if it's doing anything to draw attention to its targets while up. Note that targeted creatures have no difficulty making or detecting noise (the spell has no interaction with Thunder damage going to or from a buffed target and likewise has no interaction with the deafened condition or Perception checks based on hearing), so it's a bit weird trying to declare that the veil stays up without these interactions.
"Veil" and "radiate" are not game terms and so your DM must define them. For example, the Druid's shadow could enlarge to be 30 feet across (but still only on the floor, potentially climbing up walls) and any buffed creature in the shadow experiences a slight muffling sensation. There are myriad more ways to interpret this, with subtle interactions with other things, like whether or not someone seeing the Druid cast the spell can also see which targets receive the buff by having shadows wrap around them in plain sight.
My personal opinion is that knowing who got hit with the buff is the real reason for the radiating veil: anyone who watches the cast is intended to see which targets are wrapped in shadow / hear which targets briefly stop making noise.
Bear in mind buffed targets are harder to perceive with all senses, not just vision and hearing, and since they leave no trace, all senses can fail to find traces (you can't see footprints they don't leave, but you also can't smell a lingering scent they don't leave behind).
My question is specifically about the "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you" portion.
I have seen some debate about whether this is fluff/flavor or an actual thing. Is this veil perceptible by others?
Scenario - party enters a room with a few NPCs. Prior to entering PWT is cast by the Druid. Specific intent is to give one party member the +10 stealth so that one PC can sneak around and steal an item. Would the NPCs notice the veil around the Druid (who is not attempting to hide or stealth at all, but actually converse with the NPCs)?
It is a DM call but there is a good chance PWT would do nothing in this scenario.
You can only hide if someone can't see you clearly. The DM could rule the NPCs are distracted or focused on something else and allow a stealth roll (to see if the character can move without making a noise) but one glance up and it doesn't matter how high a stealth roll the character makes they are seen and noticed - stealth isn't invisibility.
If the NPCs are looking around or just doing normal stuff - even reading, chatting or playing cards, then they will see the rogue enter the room and ask what they are doing there. If the rogue was invisible then they could hide and perhaps move unnoticed but for a bunch of folks sitting in a room chatting - they will notice someone walking by if they pass through their field of view even if they aren't looking for it. Something moving draws attention even in your peripheral vision, even if you aren't looking for it.
Three NPCs sitting at a table playing cards - at least one of the NPCs will have the rogue moving in their field of view and no matter how stealthy you might be moving, it doesn't hide you from being seen - even PWT.
If the party did something that would completely distract the NPCs so that they are not looking in the direction the rogue is moving then the rogue might be able to slip past but if the NPCs look around for any reason they will see the rogue - stealth doesn't help.
The veil of shadow and silence have no mechanical effect such as lightly/ heavily obscured or Wisdom (Perception) checks penalties relying on seeing or hearing whatsoever, but the DM could say its still seen by observers.
But the Stealth rules still apply and even if you have a big bonus to it, you still can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you unless the DM rule its too distracted to notice you somehow.
Another reason to be hesitant about giving mechanical significance to a spell's described effect where one isn't explicitly called out is that players can personalize their spells.
Per Tasha's Cauldron of Everything a player is free to describe the effect of their spells however they want as long as it is understood that it does not change the mechanical effect of the spell.
My question is specifically about the "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you" portion.
I have seen some debate about whether this is fluff/flavor or an actual thing. Is this veil perceptible by others?
Scenario - party enters a room with a few NPCs. Prior to entering PWT is cast by the Druid. Specific intent is to give one party member the +10 stealth so that one PC can sneak around and steal an item. Would the NPCs notice the veil around the Druid (who is not attempting to hide or stealth at all, but actually converse with the NPCs)?
I would, at the least, assume that someone could perceive that the Druid is oddly not leaving footprints or anything. But unsure about anything else.
PWT is 'each creature you choose,' so the druid can choose only that creature, and not themselves. With that in mind, I'd read the first sentence as flavor text that assumes the caster is including themselves in the spell, but would not apply to the caster if they choose not to include themselves in the spell.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
Except that the text says it includes the caster, "For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks" and has a range of self.
The spell is specifically meant to make you less noticeable, so I doubt the effect is anything obvious. Things like armor not being shiny or klinking while moving. Might give off an eerie vibe because of it.
As for how the spell is worded, I'm pretty sure you can exclude yourself from being a target, but I also think the effect sticks to the caster like an aura and doesn't follow creatures that were within 30 feet when cast. So the druid would have to go with the rogue.
No, that means that you can choose yourself as part of the spell. This is common phrasing used across multiple spells to specify 'you can choose yourself with this spell that doesn't have a range of self.'
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
As far as the druid following the rogue, the bonus is to stealth checks. If the rogue uses that bonus to hide within 30' of the druid and can stay hidden to do the job, then the druid might not need to tag along:
But the other obvious option is to cast PWT, then also wild shape into something so small that you might not be noticed (or can fit into a pocket of the rogue) to stay within 30' of them anyway. If you were within a pocket, that'd probably provide heavy obscurement.
Range is not an issue at all. The Druid, however, needs to interact with the NPCs while the rogue is stealthily stealing something.
The spell lists a range of "self" so I guess the thing I want to confirm now is whether or not the Druid can exclude himself from the spell and/or will it be noticeable by others that the spell has been cast while interacting with the Druid.
I mean, the effect of the spell only interacts with stealth, which means if you're not being stealthy, there isn't a noticeable one. Even if the druid did not exclude themselves, without making use of the effect (by making a dexterity (stealth) check) then I'm not sure what you think would happen to the druid.
I would guess that he's still wondering about the part of the spell description ha asked about in the OP.
To the OP, yes this part is fluff (just as the first line in many spells are). If you cast Pass without Trace on yourself (out of sight) and then simply walk up to someone saying "Hi!" then there should be no noticeable effects for anyone to see.
I interpret Pass without Trace to have perceptible effects on the caster for the duration wether it choose to ne affected by it or not. A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. It means we see can see a veil of shadow and sounds seem to be muffled, this for 1 hour.
And that's what the bolded part is about, isn't it. If the NPCs notice that sphere, then it makes it pretty obvious that something is up which defeats its purpose of the spell. And if you're not being stealthy in it, you are just as easy to interact with.
Technically, there's no such thing as "fluff/flavor" text in the way you mean in a spell description - everything in the description that can have rules weight has rules weight in terms of the RAW. However, there is such a thing as text that looks flavorful, has rules weight, and then when you try to implement it as a rule, you realize that there isn't a RAW way to do that, so you need to have your DM interpret/house rule. Here's a very strict RAW interpretation of Pass Without Trace, covering as many rules interactions as I can:
It is a DM call but there is a good chance PWT would do nothing in this scenario.
You can only hide if someone can't see you clearly. The DM could rule the NPCs are distracted or focused on something else and allow a stealth roll (to see if the character can move without making a noise) but one glance up and it doesn't matter how high a stealth roll the character makes they are seen and noticed - stealth isn't invisibility.
If the NPCs are looking around or just doing normal stuff - even reading, chatting or playing cards, then they will see the rogue enter the room and ask what they are doing there. If the rogue was invisible then they could hide and perhaps move unnoticed but for a bunch of folks sitting in a room chatting - they will notice someone walking by if they pass through their field of view even if they aren't looking for it. Something moving draws attention even in your peripheral vision, even if you aren't looking for it.
Three NPCs sitting at a table playing cards - at least one of the NPCs will have the rogue moving in their field of view and no matter how stealthy you might be moving, it doesn't hide you from being seen - even PWT.
If the party did something that would completely distract the NPCs so that they are not looking in the direction the rogue is moving then the rogue might be able to slip past but if the NPCs look around for any reason they will see the rogue - stealth doesn't help.
The veil of shadow and silence have no mechanical effect such as lightly/ heavily obscured or Wisdom (Perception) checks penalties relying on seeing or hearing whatsoever, but the DM could say its still seen by observers.
But the Stealth rules still apply and even if you have a big bonus to it, you still can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you unless the DM rule its too distracted to notice you somehow.
Thank you all. This is the info I was looking for and gives me good context to discuss it with my DM.
Another reason to be hesitant about giving mechanical significance to a spell's described effect where one isn't explicitly called out is that players can personalize their spells.
Per Tasha's Cauldron of Everything a player is free to describe the effect of their spells however they want as long as it is understood that it does not change the mechanical effect of the spell.