Along the same lines, I don't see any guidance for how much light a non-magical bonfire emits, so maybe no bonfires of any sort give off any light in D&D. Furthermore, when create bonfire ignites flammable objects in the area, there is no guidance on how much light those objects emit as they burn, so maybe burning objects don't emit any light in D&D either.
Along the same lines, I don't see any guidance for how much light a non-magical bonfire emits, so maybe no bonfires of any sort give off any light in D&D. Furthermore, when create bonfire ignites flammable objects in the area, there is no guidance on how much light those objects emit as they burn, so maybe burning objects don't emit any light in D&D either.
Am I doing this right?
Yep. Well, if you're asking what the rules say on the subject anyway. If that's not what you care about, I'm not really sure why you'd be posting in a rules & mechanics thread about it.
I gotta say, I think I'm on the side of house rulling that create bonfire emits non-magical light at least equal to a campfire.
But it is not written in the rules, thus not strictly rules as written.
I disagree. You are ignoring both the intent of the spell and a literal reading of the words.
The spell creates a bonfire. The bonfire does everything a bonfire does. Yes it does a set amount of damage. But you can also use it to ignite a torch, and it gives off normal non-magical light.
The spell Creation lets you create temporary solid matter. It does not specify the the adamantine metal you create can be in the form of a weapon, nor does it specify that the vegetable matter could be a ladder, sail, or clothing. All of that is implied by the other wording of the spell.
Similarly, Create Bonfire does not mention the light that the bonfire creates because it is implied by other words in the spell.
This is not a computer game where everything not clearly stated does not happen. The DM is supposed to have enough of a brain to realize that a bonfire gives off light, and Creation can be used to create adamantine weapons or crystal lenses.
We can all agree that the spell itself doesn't say it sheds any light. So beyond that, you have to decide for yourself. What mechanical effects are you willing to give a spell beyond what its description provides?
It is a bit of a slippery slope, if fire spells mechanically emit light, then shouldn't lightning and radiant spells? What about force spells?
Can we even use darkness in combat when there are spellcasters around? Does the wizard's firebolt illuminate the darkness enough that the rogue isn't considered hidden anymore?
Probably simpler and more fun for everyone to pretend magic doesn't make light unless it says it does (or it says it sets things on non-magic fire, then up to DM how bright that is). That is my 2 cp on it anyway.
It also creates issues with the darkness spell, if firebolt, etc emits light and the spell is 2nd level or lower, then it is automatically dispelled by the Darkness spell. So much for the Warlock doing the Darkness/Devils Sight combo and launching Eldritch Blasts at someone.
We can all agree that the spell itself doesn't say it sheds any light. So beyond that, you have to decide for yourself. What mechanical effects are you willing to give a spell beyond what its description provides?
It is a bit of a slippery slope, if fire spells mechanically emit light, then shouldn't lightning and radiant spells? What about force spells?
Can we even use darkness in combat when there are spellcasters around? Does the wizard's firebolt illuminate the darkness enough that the rogue isn't considered hidden anymore?
Probably simpler and more fun for everyone to pretend magic doesn't make light unless it says it does (or it says it sets things on non-magic fire, then up to DM how bright that is). That is my 2 cp on it anyway.
It also creates issues with the darkness spell, if firebolt, etc emits light and the spell is 2nd level or lower, then it is automatically dispelled by the Darkness spell. So much for the Warlock doing the Darkness/Devils Sight combo and launching Eldritch Blasts at someone.
If all light shedding spells worked exactly the same, would there be any point to the existence of more than one?
This bit is a bit of a straw man. But the thing is that they all do work differently within the framework of the rules. Some produce dim light only. Some produce bright and dim light. Some do damage. Some are simply bigger. Some have higher levels, and therefore interact differently with dispel effects and other rules. But the thing about them (and the point) isn't that they work exactly the same, it is that they all work within the framework of rules. They all (excepting the one in question here) tell you how much light they create. They follow the rules.
'Normal' as in non-magical. Sorry if that was unclear.
Ok. Well, you asked about spells earlier, so I'm still unclear if you're interested in them or in non-magical things. I answered about why different light emitting spells exist and how they all followed the rules, then you changed what we are talking about. There's no normal fire spell.
Another good example would be the Creation Bard ability 'Performance of Creation,' which can create a non-magical item, which, despite being non-magical, 'glimmers softly, and a creature can faintly hear music when touching it. The created item disappears after a number of hours equal to your proficiency bonus.' If one uses that ability to create an axe, does it merely glimmer softly and produce faint music for those touching it, simply because, although the ability states explicitly that it creates a non-magical item and suggests the PH equipment section for examples of things that could be created, it does not explicitly state that anything created has its normal properties?'
This confuses the issue even more. What in the game tells us the game mechanics properties of a bonfire?
This confuses the issue even more. What in the game tells us the game mechanics properties of a bonfire?
It's common sense and the general rules for the environment; when you walk into a tavern with a roaring firepit, the room isn't in total darkness just because the rules don't state "a firepit emits bright light up to 30 feet blah, blah, blah".
There are light sources above and beyond those that are explicitly specified; we get spells with explicit light sources because that's part of the purpose of the spell, to create an area of explicitly defined, unambiguous light that cannot be challenged (except by other explicit effects to nullify it).
A bonfire is simply an environmental light source, it's up to your DM to decide how useful that might be, as they do for any other environmental light source.
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You guys aren't incorrect. You just can't use the text of the rules to say definitively if the light is magical or how much there is. That makes this a ruling problem, not a rules problem, and that has been my entire point since post #6.
You are ignoring both the intent of the spell and a literal reading of the words.
But the thing is, when spells intend to shed light, they literally say so in their own words.
They often do, yes, but the general rule for light does not stop applying unless that spell specifically contradicts it.
Spells are a bit more specific than general rules, they usually tells you when they intend to shed light or not, they don't leave people second guessing their possible effect.
It's still a ruling that can be made by the DM though, but the thread question is does create bonfire creates light, the spell doesn't say it does as written.
You are ignoring both the intent of the spell and a literal reading of the words.
But the thing is, when spells intend to shed light, they literally say so in their own words.
There's a difference between a spell that explicitly defines unambiguous magical light and a spell that creates incidental light; for the former this is a major part of how that spell operates, and you might even cast it because of that feature, to provide you with a specific area of light that you know you can use to overcome ordinary or even magical darkness.
But this is not mutually exclusive to the ordinary rules for other light sources in an environment; not all light is magical, and not all light is absolute.
Ultimately a bonfire is a bonfire, which means it's an environmental light source; while the specifics are left up to the DM, it's certainly going to produce some light, and it's certainly going to be visible, how much is up to the DM, though a 5x5 foot bonfire isn't actually all that big (it's the kind you might make with some piled driftwood on a beach, rather than the big bonfires at a festival or whatever).
It's not the kind of thing you can throw down in a room and guarantee that there's nobody hiding there, especially since fire is actually quite a poor light source in practice, but that doesn't mean it produces zero light. If you want to scan a room for sneaky skulkers, you use the light cantrip, not a spell that produces a bit of light as a side effect.
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'Normal' as in non-magical. Sorry if that was unclear.
But it isn't non-magical. The fire from Create Bonfire is not only a spell effect but it also explicitly says that it is magical.
Until the spell ends, the magic bonfire fills a 5-foot cube.
I'd fully expect that any Fire spells (and likely Lightning spells and possibly Radiant spells) should be visible when cast (and continually if the stay around). But I cannot see why they should be considered as creating an area of light unless the spell description specifically says they do.
'Normal' as in non-magical. Sorry if that was unclear.
But it isn't non-magical. The fire from Create Bonfire is not only a spell effect but it also explicitly says that it is magical.
Until the spell ends, the magic bonfire fills a 5-foot cube.
I'd fully expect that any Fire spells (and likely Lightning spells and possibly Radiant spells) should be visible when cast (and continually if the stay around). But I cannot see why they should be considered as creating an area of light unless the spell description specifically says they do.
But then that begs the question why do you expect a magical fire to behave like a non-magical one?
They often do, yes, but the general rule for light does not stop applying unless that spell specifically contradicts it.
Spells are a bit more specific than general rules, they usually tells you when they intend to shed light or not, they don't leave people second guessing their possible effect.
It's still a ruling that can be made by the DM though, but the thread question is does create bonfire creates light, the spell doesn't say it does as written.
I agree that spells usually tell you when they intend to shed light. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it looks to me like you are saying that with spells, a lack of confirmation is the same thing as a contradiction and that isn't how rules work in D&D. Specific rules only beat general rules when they contradict them.
Create bonfire does not say that it does not create light, so the general rule that fire creates bright light still applies to the spell, so long as we can agree that a bonfire is a fire.
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Along the same lines, I don't see any guidance for how much light a non-magical bonfire emits, so maybe no bonfires of any sort give off any light in D&D. Furthermore, when create bonfire ignites flammable objects in the area, there is no guidance on how much light those objects emit as they burn, so maybe burning objects don't emit any light in D&D either.
Am I doing this right?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yep. Well, if you're asking what the rules say on the subject anyway. If that's not what you care about, I'm not really sure why you'd be posting in a rules & mechanics thread about it.
I gotta say, I think I'm on the side of house rulling that create bonfire emits non-magical light at least equal to a campfire.
But it is not written in the rules, thus not strictly rules as written.
I disagree. You are ignoring both the intent of the spell and a literal reading of the words.
The spell creates a bonfire. The bonfire does everything a bonfire does. Yes it does a set amount of damage. But you can also use it to ignite a torch, and it gives off normal non-magical light.
The spell Creation lets you create temporary solid matter. It does not specify the the adamantine metal you create can be in the form of a weapon, nor does it specify that the vegetable matter could be a ladder, sail, or clothing. All of that is implied by the other wording of the spell.
Similarly, Create Bonfire does not mention the light that the bonfire creates because it is implied by other words in the spell.
This is not a computer game where everything not clearly stated does not happen. The DM is supposed to have enough of a brain to realize that a bonfire gives off light, and Creation can be used to create adamantine weapons or crystal lenses.
I'm not sure that you can say that you can know the intent of the spell, especially when other light shedding spells exit and work differently.
It also creates issues with the darkness spell, if firebolt, etc emits light and the spell is 2nd level or lower, then it is automatically dispelled by the Darkness spell. So much for the Warlock doing the Darkness/Devils Sight combo and launching Eldritch Blasts at someone.
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You can't dispel instantaneous spells.
You got me there. Thanks for pointing that out. :)
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This bit is a bit of a straw man. But the thing is that they all do work differently within the framework of the rules. Some produce dim light only. Some produce bright and dim light. Some do damage. Some are simply bigger. Some have higher levels, and therefore interact differently with dispel effects and other rules. But the thing about them (and the point) isn't that they work exactly the same, it is that they all work within the framework of rules. They all (excepting the one in question here) tell you how much light they create. They follow the rules.
What normal fire spell are you talking about?
Ok. Well, you asked about spells earlier, so I'm still unclear if you're interested in them or in non-magical things. I answered about why different light emitting spells exist and how they all followed the rules, then you changed what we are talking about. There's no normal fire spell.
This confuses the issue even more. What in the game tells us the game mechanics properties of a bonfire?
It's common sense and the general rules for the environment; when you walk into a tavern with a roaring firepit, the room isn't in total darkness just because the rules don't state "a firepit emits bright light up to 30 feet blah, blah, blah".
There are light sources above and beyond those that are explicitly specified; we get spells with explicit light sources because that's part of the purpose of the spell, to create an area of explicitly defined, unambiguous light that cannot be challenged (except by other explicit effects to nullify it).
A bonfire is simply an environmental light source, it's up to your DM to decide how useful that might be, as they do for any other environmental light source.
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You guys aren't incorrect. You just can't use the text of the rules to say definitively if the light is magical or how much there is. That makes this a ruling problem, not a rules problem, and that has been my entire point since post #6.
But the thing is, when spells intend to shed light, they literally say so in their own words.
They often do, yes, but the general rule for light does not stop applying unless that spell specifically contradicts it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Spells are a bit more specific than general rules, they usually tells you when they intend to shed light or not, they don't leave people second guessing their possible effect.
It's still a ruling that can be made by the DM though, but the thread question is does create bonfire creates light, the spell doesn't say it does as written.
There's a difference between a spell that explicitly defines unambiguous magical light and a spell that creates incidental light; for the former this is a major part of how that spell operates, and you might even cast it because of that feature, to provide you with a specific area of light that you know you can use to overcome ordinary or even magical darkness.
But this is not mutually exclusive to the ordinary rules for other light sources in an environment; not all light is magical, and not all light is absolute.
Ultimately a bonfire is a bonfire, which means it's an environmental light source; while the specifics are left up to the DM, it's certainly going to produce some light, and it's certainly going to be visible, how much is up to the DM, though a 5x5 foot bonfire isn't actually all that big (it's the kind you might make with some piled driftwood on a beach, rather than the big bonfires at a festival or whatever).
It's not the kind of thing you can throw down in a room and guarantee that there's nobody hiding there, especially since fire is actually quite a poor light source in practice, but that doesn't mean it produces zero light. If you want to scan a room for sneaky skulkers, you use the light cantrip, not a spell that produces a bit of light as a side effect.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
But it isn't non-magical. The fire from Create Bonfire is not only a spell effect but it also explicitly says that it is magical.
I'd fully expect that any Fire spells (and likely Lightning spells and possibly Radiant spells) should be visible when cast (and continually if the stay around). But I cannot see why they should be considered as creating an area of light unless the spell description specifically says they do.
But then that begs the question why do you expect a magical fire to behave like a non-magical one?
I agree that spells usually tell you when they intend to shed light. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it looks to me like you are saying that with spells, a lack of confirmation is the same thing as a contradiction and that isn't how rules work in D&D. Specific rules only beat general rules when they contradict them.
Create bonfire does not say that it does not create light, so the general rule that fire creates bright light still applies to the spell, so long as we can agree that a bonfire is a fire.
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