with 4 levels of moon druid you would be using CR2 forms
Absolutely false (even more false than your false assertion about Extra Attack while shaped). A level 4 Moon Druid has access to CR 1 shapes with a swim speed (which unlocks Giant Toad and Giant Octopus, effectively).
Assuming OP is telling the truth about having access to the Giant Constrictor Snake, OP is almost certainly Barbarian 5/Moon Druid 6-7 (as 8 would open up shapes OP should be condemned for not mentioning). That means "par" attack bonus is +9, so a Cave Bear's 2 attacks at +7 with Reckless Attack should be fine against e.g. AC 17 (AC 22 is insanely high for an NPC, the CR table doesn't even go that high so you have to scale it).
If correct, this build would be much better at level 11-12 as Moon Druid 9-10/Barbarian 2 (especially Moon Druid 10/Barbarian 2, which would, with high likelihood, completely and utterly solve the combat dilemma OP is proposing).
It sounds to me like your DM is interpreting your moves in the least charitable way, while you yourself lack the experience to specify exactly what you want. For future reference: the vast majority of small or medium monsters don't have reach, and a good number of large ones don't either. Huge monsters do sometimes, but sometimes they don't. If a monster doesn't have reach, you need to pull them away from your friendly wizard at least 5 ft -- one empty square between the monster and the wizard, if you're on a grid. If it does have reach, make it 10 ft. You're allowed to pull a target you're grappling, or push them, as part of your movement. It takes 2 feet of your movement for every 1 foot you want to move them.
A practical example: You're 20ft from the monster, and the monster is attacking the wizard. You have 40ft of speed. Use 20ft to approach, then grapple. If you're successful, use another 20ft to go backwards 10ft, bringing the monster with you. There are now two empty squares between the monster and the wizard -- even if it has reach, it can't hit him. And it can't get closer because you're grappling it.
You've selected one of the most complicated multiclass setups possible in the 5e system. It's hard to play it well, you have a lot on your plate. Weigh your options -- you have Extra Attack, so consider the cost of Wild Shaping into something that can only attack once. You can use Extra Attack to attempt to grapple twice. Multiattack doesn't let you do that. Maybe wait until your grapple is successful, then transform, to get the benefit of the HP? Maybe don't consider Wild Shape as a combat action at all. For most druids, it isn't. Circle of the Moon is the exception, because their version of Wild Shape keeps up better with their druid level. But your druid level is quite low. Wild Shape is still exceptionally useful outside of combat though.
Some note to remember while wild shaped: you can still rage and reckless attack, and your movement and AC are increased.
Extra attack CAN be used with your natural weapons (just won't be as useful for things with multiattack, but you can choose to use its best attack twice for example). So you could have grappled and attacked (once). Whether or not you could move it out of reach depends on your movement (probably around 50 feet, half while dragging).
with 4 levels of moon druid you would be using CR2 forms
Absolutely false (even more false than your false assertion about Extra Attack while shaped). A level 4 Moon Druid has access to CR 1 shapes with a swim speed (which unlocks Giant Toad and Giant Octopus, effectively).
I think David42 meant 4 levels of moon druid instead of some of those 5 barbarian levels referenced earlier in the paragraph. If you read that phrase quoted above in the context of the entire paragraph, David has a point.
And I don't think I understand at all what is incorrect about Extra Attack. If you have extra attack, you can use it while wildshaped, but multi attack isn't a natural weapon attack action, whereas claw and bite attacks are. All characters have access to the rules in Ch 9, including making an attack. See the example below.
Multiattack. The bear makes two attacks: one with its bite and one with its claws.
Bite.Melee Weapon Attack:+7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 9 (1d8 + 5) piercing damage.
Claws.Melee Weapon Attack:+7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 12 (2d6 + 5) slashing damage.
with 4 levels of moon druid you would be using CR2 forms
Absolutely false (even more false than your false assertion about Extra Attack while shaped). A level 4 Moon Druid has access to CR 1 shapes with a swim speed (which unlocks Giant Toad and Giant Octopus, effectively).
Assuming OP is telling the truth about having access to the Giant Constrictor Snake, OP is almost certainly Barbarian 5/Moon Druid 6-7 (as 8 would open up shapes OP should be condemned for not mentioning). That means "par" attack bonus is +9, so a Cave Bear's 2 attacks at +7 with Reckless Attack should be fine against e.g. AC 17 (AC 22 is insanely high for an NPC, the CR table doesn't even go that high so you have to scale it).
If correct, this build would be much better at level 11-12 as Moon Druid 9-10/Barbarian 2 (especially Moon Druid 10/Barbarian 2, which would, with high likelihood, completely and utterly solve the combat dilemma OP is proposing).
You're right. I forgot that it was level/3 for CR. My bad. Though your tone is a bit aggressive.
The point I was trying to make, and which you seem to agree with, is that even with barbarian 5/moon druid 6-7, the to hit modifiers of whatever wild shape they are using SHOULD be hitting the opponents at the same rate as any other melee or spell attack (especially given the use of reckless attack). A +7 vs AC22 is still a to hit of 15 which with advantage lands 51% of the time compared to a straight +9 which only hits 40% of the time. In addition, if they are level 6-7 then the wild shaped attacks count as magical for dealing with resistances. (and as you noted AC22 is very high for baseline creatures).
As for Extra Attack, I'm not sure what your reasoning is for saying that a wild shaped druid can't use it. Wild shapes CAN take the Attack action from the PHB and they can use ANY feature of the class that their form is capable of ... so from my reading they can certainly use the Extra Attack feature if they take the Attack action. (This gives a bit more value to wild shaped forms with one powerful attack like the giant elk).
P.S. I also agree that barb 1/moon druid X or Barb 2/moon druid X (if you want reckless and danger sense) are better if only because the druid gets to use elemental forms after 10 levels of moon druid - and those are really cool (getting access sooner is usually better).
P.P.S. Extra attack on a giant constrictor snake would also have some significant value since after the target is grappled and restrained by the snake - they can bite or constrict the target again - it also gives two chances to land the constrict (which becomes easier with reckless). So although perhaps not ideal, barb 5/moon druid X should be quite workable.
P.P.P.S. Lol - lots of edits. The actions on these creatures clearly indicate when they are "Melee Weapon Attack" which should be eligible for use on the Attack action because they are Attacks.
From the PHB:
"Attack action: With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks. Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action." (Attack is one of the actions available to all creatures).
From the MM:
"When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action, as described in the Player’s Handbook."
From Druid wildshape:
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
Thus a wild shaped moon druid can use any of the creature's available attacks when they take the Attack action from the PHB and if they have the Extra Attack feature from their class they can choose to make a second attack.
Can a human barbarian attempt to grapple a bear? If so, can the bear make an attempt to escape a grapple?
Obviously bears should be able to grapple. Just as you are allowed to use the attack options, so can your opponents/ It is not listed as special attack because it does not get a bonus to grapples.
Attack options include:
Cast a spell
Make a single attack
Dash
Disengage
Dodge
Help
Hide
Ready
Search
Use an Object
Improvise
Grapple
Shove
Plus the 'optional' ones in the DM:
Climb a bigger creature
Disarm
Mark a creature (Rarely helpful - trade an attack foradvantage on AoO till your next turn)
I appreciate everyone who has responded to this and all the information you've given me. I'm certainly going to be presenting this to the DM and player in question. To those of you advocating I leave the game, I'm very much considering it at this point. I simply hate the idea of quiting after the investment I have made in the campaign and the character if I don't have to. Honestly I've never met anyone that was this hard core about RAW so it's been a new experience for me.
For those of you asking about the Wild Shaped CR, I can use CR 2. My current level split is 5 PotTW Barbarian/7 CotM Druid. If I had gone the 3/9 route I'd be using CR 3 monsters at this point. The guy doing all the critiqueing, number crunching, and RAW assertions said I should be using an Allosaurus right now to be more effective at what I was trying to do if I remember correctly.
The stats I'm using when I Wild Shape into the Cave Bear are:
Now let me address a few things here. First, the 25 Str is coming from the GM allowing me to bend the rules and maintain the benefit to Str from my Belt of Fire Giant's Strength. Normally it is 20 and until the last fight I participated in the Str of 20 was what I was using. The "Raging" parts are in there so I can just roll those when raging instead of refiguring or trying to adjust the dice rolls manually when I am raging in Bear form. The Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma scores listed are my character's current stats that would carry over into the Wild Shape. My character is also wearing a Robe of Eyes. I was able to choose a magic item at character creation and I figured that would synergize well with Danger Sense and help in the event of invisible enemies.
I honestly don't know what to say in a mechanical sense about the lack of combat viability. All I know is I have played 5 sessions now and I have successfully hit something fewer than 10 times and every single thing I have tried to fight, including undead monsters (don't remember which specifically but not something with higher intelligence), has actively run away from me and towards other targets. The only exception has been in one fight against a few Naga who were backed into a corner and rolling to randomly select the target they would attack. The people advocating I cut my losses and pull out are quite possibly correct and that option is sadly on the table, but I truly want to maintain hope that I won't have to. I will store all of this info for now and hope that nobody *****es about my bear grappling again, but if they do I can lay all the factual, WotC published content as written in the material and go from there. I have never been in a situation where I wasn't actively enjoying the game or the character I'm playing so it's hard for me to wrap my head around it happening and I really hope that's not what's happening. It just seems overly suspicious that literally nothing will attack me unless it can't go anywhere else and has to hit something it can reach.
As to the issue behind why I can't hit, I don't know. There are the stats I have. Until the belt of giant strength I had a +9 to hit. I still miss. Though I never considered "Multiattack" as a single action independent of Bite and Claw. Which now has me feeling like I shouldn't have to roll to hit on both attacks if I'm multiattacking since that's a single action. I would actually have been dealing more damage if that was the case because more often than not when I do hit, it's with one and not the other since I am having to roll both when I multiattack. Either way, it's very difficult not to feel I'm being dumped on in some context and like many have said, it's pointless to be in a game that's making your character largely pointless to even have there. You're all wonderful!
Now let me address a few things here. First, the 25 Str is coming from the GM allowing me to bend the rules and maintain the benefit to Str from my Belt of Fire Giant's Strength.
This isn't actually bending the rules, you can keep equipment right there in the Wildshape rule itself:
You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size.
If the DM rules that a belt can be worn by the new form (bears have waists too, and they're actually a lot skinnier than they look under all that fur, so retaining even a human sized one may be reasonable) then you can absolutely do that.
In that case you should actually be recalculating the attack rolls for the bear, as they were originally calculated using a Strength of 20 (+5), so with 25 (+7) you should be adding +2 to the attack rolls for a +9 to hit.
It'd be a shame to leave an active group if you're still having fun some of the time; it's also worth pointing out to the rules-lawyer that the most important rule of D&D is that whatever the DM says, goes, so if the rules-lawyer is someone other than the DM then all they can do is what the rules say, as the DM is the only authority on what you can actually do.
There's definitely a tricky line to walk for a DM with a Druid in the party, as Moon Druids can be extremely powerful, especially at higher levels, but by multi-classing you've given yourself fun options while not necessarily optimising your build so its doesn't seem like there's any real danger of that, and the most important thing is to ensure that all players feel like they're contributing to a fight.
That aspect is bit off-topic for here, but in RAW you can definitely argue recalculating Strength-based attacks if you've got a Strength boosting item. This ought to give you a roughly 10% better chance to hit.
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Well that's new as of the end of last session and only one fight has occured with that benefit. And that encounter was with the "big bad" we'd been building towards. So I can't say it's indicative of a greater issue yet. And no, the rules lawyer isn't the DM. He was arguing I couldn't use the benefit of the belt at all because the beast stat blocks replaced the player's physical statistics. His contention was I would have to spend an hour as a bear attuning to the item in order for the item to reshape itself to my bear form so for practical purposes having it would never give me a benefit in a fight I didn't know I was walking into. The DM ruled I could use it it as a collar type deal. The character is a 2'10" halfling. Nothing she wears is going to fit on a Cave Bear. I don't even know if a belt for her would be large enough to fit around the bear's wrist. The DM gave it some flavor by saying it shifted into the collar with me because he wanted us to have as much going for us as we could get because he really didn't want the fight to be easy so he personally was going to be going pretty hard with it.
with 4 levels of moon druid you would be using CR2 forms
Absolutely false (even more false than your false assertion about Extra Attack while shaped). A level 4 Moon Druid has access to CR 1 shapes with a swim speed (which unlocks Giant Toad and Giant Octopus, effectively).
Assuming OP is telling the truth about having access to the Giant Constrictor Snake, OP is almost certainly Barbarian 5/Moon Druid 6-7 (as 8 would open up shapes OP should be condemned for not mentioning). That means "par" attack bonus is +9, so a Cave Bear's 2 attacks at +7 with Reckless Attack should be fine against e.g. AC 17 (AC 22 is insanely high for an NPC, the CR table doesn't even go that high so you have to scale it).
If correct, this build would be much better at level 11-12 as Moon Druid 9-10/Barbarian 2 (especially Moon Druid 10/Barbarian 2, which would, with high likelihood, completely and utterly solve the combat dilemma OP is proposing).
You're right. I forgot that it was level/3 for CR. My bad. Though your tone is a bit aggressive.
The point I was trying to make, and which you seem to agree with, is that even with barbarian 5/moon druid 6-7, the to hit modifiers of whatever wild shape they are using SHOULD be hitting the opponents at the same rate as any other melee or spell attack (especially given the use of reckless attack). A +7 vs AC22 is still a to hit of 15 which with advantage lands 51% of the time compared to a straight +9 which only hits 40% of the time. In addition, if they are level 6-7 then the wild shaped attacks count as magical for dealing with resistances. (and as you noted AC22 is very high for baseline creatures).
As for Extra Attack, I'm not sure what your reasoning is for saying that a wild shaped druid can't use it. Wild shapes CAN take the Attack action from the PHB and they can use ANY feature of the class that their form is capable of ... so from my reading they can certainly use the Extra Attack feature if they take the Attack action. (This gives a bit more value to wild shaped forms with one powerful attack like the giant elk).
P.S. I also agree that barb 1/moon druid X or Barb 2/moon druid X (if you want reckless and danger sense) are better if only because the druid gets to use elemental forms after 10 levels of moon druid - and those are really cool (getting access sooner is usually better).
P.P.S. Extra attack on a giant constrictor snake would also have some significant value since after the target is grappled and restrained by the snake - they can bite or constrict the target again - it also gives two chances to land the constrict (which becomes easier with reckless). So although perhaps not ideal, barb 5/moon druid X should be quite workable.
P.P.P.S. Lol - lots of edits. The actions on these creatures clearly indicate when they are "Melee Weapon Attack" which should be eligible for use on the Attack action because they are Attacks.
From the PHB:
"Attack action: With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks. Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action." (Attack is one of the actions available to all creatures).
From the MM:
"When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action, as described in the Player’s Handbook."
From Druid wildshape:
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
Thus a wild shaped moon druid can use any of the creature's available attacks when they take the Attack action from the PHB and if they have the Extra Attack feature from their class they can choose to make a second attack.
The problem with Extra attack is that it does not stack. It does not stack with Extra Attack from another class and it does not stack with Multi-attack. Multi Attack replaces the Attack action, it is not an add on to it.
He was arguing I couldn't use the benefit of the belt at all because the beast stat blocks replaced the player's physical statistics. His contention was I would have to spend an hour as a bear attuning to the item in order for the item to reshape itself to my bear form so for practical purposes having it would never give me a benefit in a fight I didn't know I was walking into.
Attunement only ends if you no longer meet the requirements to be attuned to it, but strength belts don't have any, so any creature that can wear it can attune to it, meanwhile Wildshaping doesn't cause you to become a new creature, you're just swapping your stats, so you can remain attuned to items unless your DM rules otherwise.
Meanwhile on sizing, in the Magic Item rules, it states that most wearable magic items resize to fit:
In most cases, a magic item that's meant to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer. Rare exceptions exist. If the story suggests a good reason for an item to fit only creatures of a certain size or shape, you can rule that it doesn't adjust. For example, drow-made armor might fit elves only. Dwarves might make items usable only by dwarf-sized and dwarf-shaped folk.
When a nonhumanoid tries to wear an item, use your discretion as to whether the item functions as intended. A ring placed on a tentacle might work, but a creature with a snakelike tail instead of legs can't wear boots.
So it could still be worn as a belt, but that doesn't actually matter; if your DM is fine with it being a collar instead then it seems like they're fine with it still being worn.
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The point being made here, as I understand it though, is you look at the Action section of the stat block. Under it is listed 3 things that can be done. Multiattack, Bite, Claw. Extra attack allows you to make another attack action per turn. So while it is absolutely true it does not stack with the Multiattack attack action, should that be the attack action taken, you can choose to use the Bite attack action alone, not as a subaction pertaining to the Multiattack attack action, and since you chose to use Bite as your attack action, which is listed on the stat block as an action the Bear can take, you have only used one attack action and per your ability to retain all skills from your classes and bonuses, you can then make use of the Extra Attack feature gained from being a Barbarian or Fighter to then make a second Bite attack action, a Claw attack action, a shove action, or the grapple attempt that inspired my entire reason for asking these questions in the first place. Choosing to take one of the single attack options listed on the stat block should satisfy the RAW for the Extra Attack ability.
Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Actions
1 Action that can be chosen Multiattack. The bear makes two attacks: one with its bite and one with its claws. Two attacks, but coming from a single action listed under "Actions"
1 Attack Action that can be chosen Bite. Melee Weapon Attack:+7, Reach 5 ft., one target One attack coming from a single action listed under "Actions" Hit: 9 (1d8 + 5) piercing damage
1 Attack Action that can be chosen Claws. Melee Weapon Attack:+7, Reach 5 ft., one target One attack coming from a single action listed under "Actions" Hit: 12 (2d6 + 5) slashing damage
Multiattack is not considered an attack action. Extra Attack only applies to attack actions. Taking Multiattack does cause damage because it's defined as making two attacks, but it, in and of itself, is not an attack action. The other two are, thus taking just one does allow you to make use of extra attack to either use the second attack or any other option that is classified as an attack action, which grapple and shove are.
Yep, that's all correct. I didn't actually realize you could use Extra Attack while wild shaped -- most druids don't have that feature, so it's never come up for me. This actually also means you can use two of the higher-powered attacks from a monster that usually only makes one. Whether that's a monster that only has one attack, or a monster that makes a series of attacks with different weapons.
If this wasn't possible, then monsters who only have a Multiattack action couldn't make opportunity attacks. Which would be silly.
For those of you asking about the Wild Shaped CR, I can use CR 2. My current level split is 5 PotTW Barbarian/7 CotM Druid. If I had gone the 3/9 route I'd be using CR 3 monsters at this point. The guy doing all the critiqueing, number crunching, and RAW assertions said I should be using an Allosaurus right now to be more effective at what I was trying to do if I remember correctly.
The stats I'm using when I Wild Shape into the Cave Bear are:
Now let me address a few things here. First, the 25 Str is coming from the GM allowing me to bend the rules and maintain the benefit to Str from my Belt of Fire Giant's Strength. Normally it is 20 and until the last fight I participated in the Str of 20 was what I was using. The "Raging" parts are in there so I can just roll those when raging instead of refiguring or trying to adjust the dice rolls manually when I am raging in Bear form. The Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma scores listed are my character's current stats that would carry over into the Wild Shape. My character is also wearing a Robe of Eyes. I was able to choose a magic item at character creation and I figured that would synergize well with Danger Sense and help in the event of invisible enemies.
As to the issue behind why I can't hit, I don't know. There are the stats I have. Until the belt of giant strength I had a +9 to hit. I still miss. Though I never considered "Multiattack" as a single action independent of Bite and Claw. Which now has me feeling like I shouldn't have to roll to hit on both attacks if I'm multiattacking since that's a single action. I would actually have been dealing more damage if that was the case because more often than not when I do hit, it's with one and not the other since I am having to roll both when I multiattack. Either way, it's very difficult not to feel I'm being dumped on in some context and like many have said, it's pointless to be in a game that's making your character largely pointless to even have there. You're all wonderful!
Ok, lets go through this 1 issue at a time.
You are the tank, but keep getting ignored and the casters get targeted. Solutions: 1) tell the casters to back up. Their attack range should be greater than any enemy movement. 2) The DM may be playing too optimally. Creatures with single digit INT and WIS would mostly just attack the closest/biggest threat. 3)Take the sentinel feat and/or grapple to prevent enemies from moving away from you.
Your "rules lawyer" keeps lying to you. Solutions: Ignore them. So far everything you told us they said about wild shape has been wrong. They don't seem to know the rules as well as you think they do.
Your wild shape stat block is a little inaccurate. Solution: lets fix your stat block to reflect your actual stats:
Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha 25 10 16 13 15 9 (+7) (+0) (+3) (+1) (+2) (-1)
Saving Throws: Dex +4, Int +5, Wis +6 Skills: Athletics: +9, Insight +6, Perception +6, Survival +6 Damage resistances: all damage except psychic damage while raging Senses: Darkvision 60ft., passive perception 16 Languages: ---- CR: 2 Proficiency Bonus: 0
Keen Smell: The bear has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on smell.
Reckless attack: When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this turn, but attack rolls against you have advantage until your next turn.
Actions
Extra Attack. The bear makes two of the following attacks in any combination:
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack:+9, Reach 5 ft., one target Hit: 11 (1d8 + 7) piercing damage, plus 2 additional damage while raging
Claws. Melee Weapon Attack:+9, Reach 5 ft., one target Hit: 14 (2d6 + 7) slashing damage, plus 2 additional damage while raging
Grapple. Make the athletics check with advantage while raging.
Fixed speed, attack, damage, added important features, and corrected AC (unarmored defense does not add to natural armor, it replaces it).
I'm not sure where the DEX save proficiency is coming from...
Multiattack is not considered an attack action. Extra Attack only applies to attack actions. Taking Multiattack does cause damage because it's defined as making two attacks, but it, in and of itself, is not an attack action. The other two are, thus taking just one does allow you to make use of extra attack to either use the second attack or any other option that is classified as an attack action, which grapple and shove are.
Everything looks right, but it's important to repeat it just to be as clear as possible. In D&D 5th edition we have a bunch of concepts confusingly all referred to using the word "attack":
Attack Rolls. This the actual act of rolling a d20, adding a modifier, maybe proficiency (if proficient with the weapon or whatever) and so-on, often leading to some form of damage. Usually the rules are consistent when they mean a roll, and say "attack roll" but not always.
Attacks. These are the things that usually involve an attack roll, such as a weapon attack, an unarmed strike, but also don't in the case of special attacks like Grapple and Shove (which all creatures have access to). The rules typically refer to this as "make an attack", or something more specific such "make an unarmed strike".
The Attack action. This is an action you can take during your combat turn that allows you to make one attack from any of those you have available (including special attacks such as Grapple and Shove). Extra Attack augments this to enable you to make two attacks (or three or four in the case of a Fighter). The rules usually refer to this in upper case and specifically say action, such as "when you take the Attack action on your turn".
It's a really horrible feature of 5th edition D&D compared to more keyword based games, but that's just the way it is.
Multiattack is an additional action that some creatures can use on their turn; most of the time this is the only way these creatures can make multiple attacks, and they're usually restricted in that they specify only a certain combination of attacks that can be used (in the case of a bear that's one bite attack, and one claws attack).
Normally there's no reason for a monster to use the Attack action if it has Multiattack, because doing so means it only gets to make one attack (bite or claws, not both), but if you want to Grapple then it's the action you need to take (because you can normally only Grapple as part of the Attack action).
However, in your case you have Extra Attack, and you're Wildshaping, which makes things interesting; because Wildshaping lets you retain your class features, that means you get to keep Extra Attack as a bear. So now if you choose to take the Attack action as a bear, you can make any two attacks (not just one of each), so you can double bite, double claws, Grapple, Shove etc. just like you normally would if you were a regular player character with access to those attacks.
Of course it doesn't help that monster attacks are also listed under Actions, so bite and claws are each their own separate action, it's just not one you'd normally ever use on its own. This matters more for higher level creatures where they have extra, special attacks they can't do as part of their Multiattack, but I wouldn't worry about it for wildshaping.
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Of course it doesn't help that monster attacks are also listed under Actions, so bite and claws are each their own separate action, it's just not one you'd normally ever use on its own. This matters more for higher level creatures where they have extra, special attacks they can't do as part of their Multiattack, but I wouldn't worry about it for wildshaping.
They list the components so they can be used for opportunity attacks.
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Absolutely false (even more false than your false assertion about Extra Attack while shaped). A level 4 Moon Druid has access to CR 1 shapes with a swim speed (which unlocks Giant Toad and Giant Octopus, effectively).
Assuming OP is telling the truth about having access to the Giant Constrictor Snake, OP is almost certainly Barbarian 5/Moon Druid 6-7 (as 8 would open up shapes OP should be condemned for not mentioning). That means "par" attack bonus is +9, so a Cave Bear's 2 attacks at +7 with Reckless Attack should be fine against e.g. AC 17 (AC 22 is insanely high for an NPC, the CR table doesn't even go that high so you have to scale it).
If correct, this build would be much better at level 11-12 as Moon Druid 9-10/Barbarian 2 (especially Moon Druid 10/Barbarian 2, which would, with high likelihood, completely and utterly solve the combat dilemma OP is proposing).
It sounds to me like your DM is interpreting your moves in the least charitable way, while you yourself lack the experience to specify exactly what you want. For future reference: the vast majority of small or medium monsters don't have reach, and a good number of large ones don't either. Huge monsters do sometimes, but sometimes they don't. If a monster doesn't have reach, you need to pull them away from your friendly wizard at least 5 ft -- one empty square between the monster and the wizard, if you're on a grid. If it does have reach, make it 10 ft. You're allowed to pull a target you're grappling, or push them, as part of your movement. It takes 2 feet of your movement for every 1 foot you want to move them.
A practical example: You're 20ft from the monster, and the monster is attacking the wizard. You have 40ft of speed. Use 20ft to approach, then grapple. If you're successful, use another 20ft to go backwards 10ft, bringing the monster with you. There are now two empty squares between the monster and the wizard -- even if it has reach, it can't hit him. And it can't get closer because you're grappling it.
You've selected one of the most complicated multiclass setups possible in the 5e system. It's hard to play it well, you have a lot on your plate. Weigh your options -- you have Extra Attack, so consider the cost of Wild Shaping into something that can only attack once. You can use Extra Attack to attempt to grapple twice. Multiattack doesn't let you do that. Maybe wait until your grapple is successful, then transform, to get the benefit of the HP? Maybe don't consider Wild Shape as a combat action at all. For most druids, it isn't. Circle of the Moon is the exception, because their version of Wild Shape keeps up better with their druid level. But your druid level is quite low. Wild Shape is still exceptionally useful outside of combat though.
Some note to remember while wild shaped: you can still rage and reckless attack, and your movement and AC are increased.
Extra attack CAN be used with your natural weapons (just won't be as useful for things with multiattack, but you can choose to use its best attack twice for example). So you could have grappled and attacked (once). Whether or not you could move it out of reach depends on your movement (probably around 50 feet, half while dragging).
I think David42 meant 4 levels of moon druid instead of some of those 5 barbarian levels referenced earlier in the paragraph. If you read that phrase quoted above in the context of the entire paragraph, David has a point.
And I don't think I understand at all what is incorrect about Extra Attack. If you have extra attack, you can use it while wildshaped, but multi attack isn't a natural weapon attack action, whereas claw and bite attacks are. All characters have access to the rules in Ch 9, including making an attack. See the example below.
You're right. I forgot that it was level/3 for CR. My bad. Though your tone is a bit aggressive.
The point I was trying to make, and which you seem to agree with, is that even with barbarian 5/moon druid 6-7, the to hit modifiers of whatever wild shape they are using SHOULD be hitting the opponents at the same rate as any other melee or spell attack (especially given the use of reckless attack). A +7 vs AC22 is still a to hit of 15 which with advantage lands 51% of the time compared to a straight +9 which only hits 40% of the time. In addition, if they are level 6-7 then the wild shaped attacks count as magical for dealing with resistances. (and as you noted AC22 is very high for baseline creatures).
As for Extra Attack, I'm not sure what your reasoning is for saying that a wild shaped druid can't use it. Wild shapes CAN take the Attack action from the PHB and they can use ANY feature of the class that their form is capable of ... so from my reading they can certainly use the Extra Attack feature if they take the Attack action. (This gives a bit more value to wild shaped forms with one powerful attack like the giant elk).
P.S. I also agree that barb 1/moon druid X or Barb 2/moon druid X (if you want reckless and danger sense) are better if only because the druid gets to use elemental forms after 10 levels of moon druid - and those are really cool (getting access sooner is usually better).
P.P.S. Extra attack on a giant constrictor snake would also have some significant value since after the target is grappled and restrained by the snake - they can bite or constrict the target again - it also gives two chances to land the constrict (which becomes easier with reckless). So although perhaps not ideal, barb 5/moon druid X should be quite workable.
P.P.P.S. Lol - lots of edits. The actions on these creatures clearly indicate when they are "Melee Weapon Attack" which should be eligible for use on the Attack action because they are Attacks.
From the PHB:
"Attack action: With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks. Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action." (Attack is one of the actions available to all creatures).
From the MM:
"When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action, as described in the Player’s Handbook."
From Druid wildshape:
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
Thus a wild shaped moon druid can use any of the creature's available attacks when they take the Attack action from the PHB and if they have the Extra Attack feature from their class they can choose to make a second attack.
Ask your DM if:
Can a human barbarian attempt to grapple a bear? If so, can the bear make an attempt to escape a grapple?
Obviously bears should be able to grapple. Just as you are allowed to use the attack options, so can your opponents/ It is not listed as special attack because it does not get a bonus to grapples.
Attack options include:
Plus the 'optional' ones in the DM:
Interestingly, in prior edition bears had special grapple attacks.
I appreciate everyone who has responded to this and all the information you've given me. I'm certainly going to be presenting this to the DM and player in question. To those of you advocating I leave the game, I'm very much considering it at this point. I simply hate the idea of quiting after the investment I have made in the campaign and the character if I don't have to. Honestly I've never met anyone that was this hard core about RAW so it's been a new experience for me.
For those of you asking about the Wild Shaped CR, I can use CR 2. My current level split is 5 PotTW Barbarian/7 CotM Druid. If I had gone the 3/9 route I'd be using CR 3 monsters at this point. The guy doing all the critiqueing, number crunching, and RAW assertions said I should be using an Allosaurus right now to be more effective at what I was trying to do if I remember correctly.
The stats I'm using when I Wild Shape into the Cave Bear are:
Cave Bear
Large beast, unaligned
AC: 15(natural armor)
Hit Points: 42 (5d10 + 15)
Speed: 40ft., swim 30ft.
Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha
25 10 16 13 15 9
(+7) (+0) (+3) (+1) (+2) (-1)
Saving Throws: Dex +4, Int +5, Wis +6
Skills: Athletics: +9, Insight +6, Perception +6, Survival +6
Senses: Darkvision 60ft., passive perception 16
Languages: ----
CR: 2
Proficiency Bonus: 0
Keen Smell: The bear has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on smell.
Actions
Multiattack.
The bear makes two attacks: one with its bite and one with its claws.
Bite.
Melee Weapon Attack:+7, Reach 5 ft., one target
Hit: 9 (1d8 + 5) piercing damage
Claws.
Melee Weapon Attack:+7, Reach 5 ft., one target
Hit: 12 (2d6 + 5) slashing damage
Raging Bite.
Melee Weapon Attack:+7, Reach 5 ft, One target
Hit: 12 (1d8+8) Piercing damage damage
Raging Claw.
Melee Weapon Attack:+7, Reach 5 ft, One target
Hit: 13 (2d6+6) Slashing damage damage
Now let me address a few things here. First, the 25 Str is coming from the GM allowing me to bend the rules and maintain the benefit to Str from my Belt of Fire Giant's Strength. Normally it is 20 and until the last fight I participated in the Str of 20 was what I was using. The "Raging" parts are in there so I can just roll those when raging instead of refiguring or trying to adjust the dice rolls manually when I am raging in Bear form. The Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma scores listed are my character's current stats that would carry over into the Wild Shape. My character is also wearing a Robe of Eyes. I was able to choose a magic item at character creation and I figured that would synergize well with Danger Sense and help in the event of invisible enemies.
I honestly don't know what to say in a mechanical sense about the lack of combat viability. All I know is I have played 5 sessions now and I have successfully hit something fewer than 10 times and every single thing I have tried to fight, including undead monsters (don't remember which specifically but not something with higher intelligence), has actively run away from me and towards other targets. The only exception has been in one fight against a few Naga who were backed into a corner and rolling to randomly select the target they would attack. The people advocating I cut my losses and pull out are quite possibly correct and that option is sadly on the table, but I truly want to maintain hope that I won't have to. I will store all of this info for now and hope that nobody *****es about my bear grappling again, but if they do I can lay all the factual, WotC published content as written in the material and go from there. I have never been in a situation where I wasn't actively enjoying the game or the character I'm playing so it's hard for me to wrap my head around it happening and I really hope that's not what's happening. It just seems overly suspicious that literally nothing will attack me unless it can't go anywhere else and has to hit something it can reach.
As to the issue behind why I can't hit, I don't know. There are the stats I have. Until the belt of giant strength I had a +9 to hit. I still miss. Though I never considered "Multiattack" as a single action independent of Bite and Claw. Which now has me feeling like I shouldn't have to roll to hit on both attacks if I'm multiattacking since that's a single action. I would actually have been dealing more damage if that was the case because more often than not when I do hit, it's with one and not the other since I am having to roll both when I multiattack. Either way, it's very difficult not to feel I'm being dumped on in some context and like many have said, it's pointless to be in a game that's making your character largely pointless to even have there. You're all wonderful!
This isn't actually bending the rules, you can keep equipment right there in the Wildshape rule itself:
If the DM rules that a belt can be worn by the new form (bears have waists too, and they're actually a lot skinnier than they look under all that fur, so retaining even a human sized one may be reasonable) then you can absolutely do that.
In that case you should actually be recalculating the attack rolls for the bear, as they were originally calculated using a Strength of 20 (+5), so with 25 (+7) you should be adding +2 to the attack rolls for a +9 to hit.
It'd be a shame to leave an active group if you're still having fun some of the time; it's also worth pointing out to the rules-lawyer that the most important rule of D&D is that whatever the DM says, goes, so if the rules-lawyer is someone other than the DM then all they can do is what the rules say, as the DM is the only authority on what you can actually do.
There's definitely a tricky line to walk for a DM with a Druid in the party, as Moon Druids can be extremely powerful, especially at higher levels, but by multi-classing you've given yourself fun options while not necessarily optimising your build so its doesn't seem like there's any real danger of that, and the most important thing is to ensure that all players feel like they're contributing to a fight.
That aspect is bit off-topic for here, but in RAW you can definitely argue recalculating Strength-based attacks if you've got a Strength boosting item. This ought to give you a roughly 10% better chance to hit.
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Well that's new as of the end of last session and only one fight has occured with that benefit. And that encounter was with the "big bad" we'd been building towards. So I can't say it's indicative of a greater issue yet. And no, the rules lawyer isn't the DM. He was arguing I couldn't use the benefit of the belt at all because the beast stat blocks replaced the player's physical statistics. His contention was I would have to spend an hour as a bear attuning to the item in order for the item to reshape itself to my bear form so for practical purposes having it would never give me a benefit in a fight I didn't know I was walking into. The DM ruled I could use it it as a collar type deal. The character is a 2'10" halfling. Nothing she wears is going to fit on a Cave Bear. I don't even know if a belt for her would be large enough to fit around the bear's wrist. The DM gave it some flavor by saying it shifted into the collar with me because he wanted us to have as much going for us as we could get because he really didn't want the fight to be easy so he personally was going to be going pretty hard with it.
The problem with Extra attack is that it does not stack. It does not stack with Extra Attack from another class and it does not stack with Multi-attack. Multi Attack replaces the Attack action, it is not an add on to it.
Attunement only ends if you no longer meet the requirements to be attuned to it, but strength belts don't have any, so any creature that can wear it can attune to it, meanwhile Wildshaping doesn't cause you to become a new creature, you're just swapping your stats, so you can remain attuned to items unless your DM rules otherwise.
Meanwhile on sizing, in the Magic Item rules, it states that most wearable magic items resize to fit:
So it could still be worn as a belt, but that doesn't actually matter; if your DM is fine with it being a collar instead then it seems like they're fine with it still being worn.
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The point being made here, as I understand it though, is you look at the Action section of the stat block. Under it is listed 3 things that can be done. Multiattack, Bite, Claw. Extra attack allows you to make another attack action per turn. So while it is absolutely true it does not stack with the Multiattack attack action, should that be the attack action taken, you can choose to use the Bite attack action alone, not as a subaction pertaining to the Multiattack attack action, and since you chose to use Bite as your attack action, which is listed on the stat block as an action the Bear can take, you have only used one attack action and per your ability to retain all skills from your classes and bonuses, you can then make use of the Extra Attack feature gained from being a Barbarian or Fighter to then make a second Bite attack action, a Claw attack action, a shove action, or the grapple attempt that inspired my entire reason for asking these questions in the first place. Choosing to take one of the single attack options listed on the stat block should satisfy the RAW for the Extra Attack ability.
Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Actions
1 Action that can be chosen Multiattack.
The bear makes two attacks: one with its bite and one with its claws. Two attacks, but coming from a single action listed under "Actions"
1 Attack Action that can be chosen Bite.
Melee Weapon Attack:+7, Reach 5 ft., one target One attack coming from a single action listed under "Actions"
Hit: 9 (1d8 + 5) piercing damage
1 Attack Action that can be chosen Claws.
Melee Weapon Attack:+7, Reach 5 ft., one target One attack coming from a single action listed under "Actions"
Hit: 12 (2d6 + 5) slashing damage
Multiattack is not considered an attack action. Extra Attack only applies to attack actions. Taking Multiattack does cause damage because it's defined as making two attacks, but it, in and of itself, is not an attack action. The other two are, thus taking just one does allow you to make use of extra attack to either use the second attack or any other option that is classified as an attack action, which grapple and shove are.
Yep, that's all correct. I didn't actually realize you could use Extra Attack while wild shaped -- most druids don't have that feature, so it's never come up for me. This actually also means you can use two of the higher-powered attacks from a monster that usually only makes one. Whether that's a monster that only has one attack, or a monster that makes a series of attacks with different weapons.
If this wasn't possible, then monsters who only have a Multiattack action couldn't make opportunity attacks. Which would be silly.
Ok, lets go through this 1 issue at a time.
You are the tank, but keep getting ignored and the casters get targeted. Solutions: 1) tell the casters to back up. Their attack range should be greater than any enemy movement. 2) The DM may be playing too optimally. Creatures with single digit INT and WIS would mostly just attack the closest/biggest threat. 3)Take the sentinel feat and/or grapple to prevent enemies from moving away from you.
Your "rules lawyer" keeps lying to you. Solutions: Ignore them. So far everything you told us they said about wild shape has been wrong. They don't seem to know the rules as well as you think they do.
Your wild shape stat block is a little inaccurate. Solution: lets fix your stat block to reflect your actual stats:
Fixed speed, attack, damage, added important features, and corrected AC (unarmored defense does not add to natural armor, it replaces it).
I'm not sure where the DEX save proficiency is coming from...
Everything looks right, but it's important to repeat it just to be as clear as possible. In D&D 5th edition we have a bunch of concepts confusingly all referred to using the word "attack":
It's a really horrible feature of 5th edition D&D compared to more keyword based games, but that's just the way it is.
Multiattack is an additional action that some creatures can use on their turn; most of the time this is the only way these creatures can make multiple attacks, and they're usually restricted in that they specify only a certain combination of attacks that can be used (in the case of a bear that's one bite attack, and one claws attack).
Normally there's no reason for a monster to use the Attack action if it has Multiattack, because doing so means it only gets to make one attack (bite or claws, not both), but if you want to Grapple then it's the action you need to take (because you can normally only Grapple as part of the Attack action).
However, in your case you have Extra Attack, and you're Wildshaping, which makes things interesting; because Wildshaping lets you retain your class features, that means you get to keep Extra Attack as a bear. So now if you choose to take the Attack action as a bear, you can make any two attacks (not just one of each), so you can double bite, double claws, Grapple, Shove etc. just like you normally would if you were a regular player character with access to those attacks.
Of course it doesn't help that monster attacks are also listed under Actions, so bite and claws are each their own separate action, it's just not one you'd normally ever use on its own. This matters more for higher level creatures where they have extra, special attacks they can't do as part of their Multiattack, but I wouldn't worry about it for wildshaping.
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They list the components so they can be used for opportunity attacks.