Good example. Now I'm thinking about how to translate that to a VTT. While I can drop a token on the map that gives everyone Manshoon's location, I want to keep this information isolated to just the one who did the searching and succeeded, so that means of communicating to the other players seems more "realistic" and necessary. More likely private chat or giving grid coordinates.
I know that what JC says in interviews is not RAW, but he has gone on record saying that as soon as one enemy has discovered an invisible/hidden creature, all the enemy's allies know where it is as well. Presumably, they spread the word as part of the background banter that goes on. This statement is not corroborated anywhere in the rules as far as I am aware.
Another important thing i enforce during combat is that creatures may only communicate on their turn, through brief utterances and gestures. So when a hidden creature moves on it's turn, anyone who had discovered it can only mention it to others when their own turn comes up.
I know that what JC says in interviews is not RAW, but he has gone on record saying that as soon as one enemy has discovered an invisible/hidden creature, all the enemy's allies know where it is as well. Presumably, they spread the word as part of the background banter that goes on. This statement is not corroborated anywhere in the rules as far as I am aware.
Not in the rules AFAIK. Can you link us to where JC said that?
They changed the way Dragon Talk works now, and I cannot link directly to it, but here's the Dragon Talk page. You want episode 120 (James Haeck on D&D writing) and the part you want begins exactly 18:00 into the episode.
EDIT: I slightly misquoted what he said. He said as soon as even one enemy discovers you, your attempt at stealth ends. That isn't exactly the same as saying everyone knows where you are, although the first can directly cause the second.
Player(s): Can attack with disadvantage Manshoon where he is located since he is heavily obscured and not HIDDEN.
Maybe. There's no question they can attack the space they last saw him in. If he casts the spell and then moves, the rules do not cover how challenging he is to locate and you have to rule on it as the DM. Popular rulings (none of these have any more or less RAW support than the others and all of them have consequences beyond mere invisibility, because you also need to worry about darkness/heavy fog/etc, total opaque cover, and anything else that can interfere with sight) include:
Everyone has perfect echolocation, so they automatically know where Manshoon is. This has poor consequences e.g. when trying to set up ambushes based on visibility, as both parties will hear each other coming. It also invalidates interactions with hearing checks, including but not limited to Keen Hearing and Deafened. At least on this forum, this seems to be far and away the most common ruling.
Note that per the DM's Screen (the first 5E one that WOTC sold, I don't think it has any other name), "quiet" sounds are audible out to a random distance of 10'-60' and "normal" sounds are double that: 20'-120' (averages are 35' and 70'). Assuming you're on a grid and Manshoon is trying to be quiet, at 65 or 125 feet (depending on your definitions of quiet and normal), this ruling contradicts the screen's rules. However, the screen may or not be a valid rules source.
It's intrinsically impossible to locate an invisible creature by sound. This has poor consequences e.g. when trying to set up ambushes based on visibility, as neither party will hear each other coming. It also invalidates interactions with hearing checks, including but not limited to Keen Hearing and Deafened.
Note that per the DM's Screen (the first 5E one that WOTC sold, I don't think it has any other name), "quiet" sounds are audible out to a random distance of 10'-60' and "normal" sounds are double that: 20'-120' (averages are 35' and 70'). Assuming you're on a grid and Manshoon is trying to be quiet, within 10 or 20 feet (depending on your definitions of quiet and normal), this ruling contradicts the screen's rules. However, the screen may or not be a valid rules source.
Locating Manshoon requires some Passive Perception (hearing) threshold - note that point 1 above is effectively DC 0 to hear Manshoon while point 2 is DC>30, using the DMG's difficulty scale. There are myriad ways to handle this because WOTC has provided nearly 0 guidance on how to handle it in a fair and balanced fashion. Here are two examples:
If Manshoon's Passive Stealth is greater than someone's Passive Perception, they don't locate him. Otherwise, they do.
Define "located" range for an observer's Passive Perception (Hearing) PP and observed's Passive Stealth (Silence) PS; a creature within range is located, a creature beyond that range is not, when the creature is unseen but has not taken the Hide action: max(0,30+(PP/5-PS/5)*5), rounding each fraction down individually (in other words, for each creature, you can generally record on their character sheet their location range distance modifier in feet ahead of time - e.g. PP 16 is range modifier 15 and PS 16 is range modifier -15). This will behave remarkably similarly to the DM Screen's audible distance for quiet sounds, except that it will scale with Perception and Stealth.
Player 1: Throws two daggers rolls (17, 14) and hits, causing 3 points of damage.
Incorrect. Manshoon can't be seen, so both attack rolls are at disadvantage. Player 1 should roll ((17,X)(14,Y)); assuming Manshoon's AC is 15, 1 dagger will miss because 14<15, and the other will hit if and only if X>=15.
Manshoon rolls for Concentration (11), succeeds, and remains invisible.
Correct, but because the DC on the save was 10, he would have succeeded on a 10 as well.
Player 2: Attacks with crossbow rolls (14,12), and this causes 10 points of damage.
This will hit if and only if Manshoon's AC is 12 or less.
Manshoon rolls for Concentration (18), succeeds, and remains invisible.
The DC of the save is still 10, so an 18 is more than enough.
Manshoon takes the HIDE Action by rolling for a Dexterity(Stealth); in this case, his hidden score is 15. Now he is Unseen and Unheard.
No. Contested checks work by leaving the status quo intact unless the person trying to accomplish something rolls higher, or in other words, "defender" wins ties. Manshoon was always Unseen, due to the spell. Assuming no other variables are in play modifying things, the only creatures who can no longer Hear him are the ones who could Hear him before his check that have a PP of 14 or less.
Manshoon moves 30 feet to the East.
Player(s): Since Manshoon is Unseen and Unheard, the players' do not know where he has gone all attack rolls are still at disadvantage. Player(s): All players' Passive Perception fails.
This is the wrong order of operations, but otherwise yes. You checked PP back when Manshoon took the Hide action.
Player 1: Picks a location, throws two daggers rolls (18, 12), and misses the wrong place.
As above, this should be 2 rolls with Disadvantage, which is 2 pairs of 2 numbers, taking the minimum from each pair.
Player 2: Picks a location, attacks with crossbow rolls (5,10), and misses the wrong place. Player 3: Picks a location, attacks with crossbow rolls (20,15), and misses the wrong place.
Ok.
Round 3
Manshoon lines up his shot and cast Lightning Bolt against two players.
Player 1: Saves and takes half damage. Player 2: Saves and takes half damage.
Manshoon, because he cast Greater Invisibility, remains Invisible, but his location has been revealed, so he falls under the Invisible Condition.
Because Lightning Bolt has a V component, if Manshoon has to supply this component, you are correct. If he has a way to avoid supplying the V component, he does not automatically break Hidden/Unheard.
Player(s): Can attack with disadvantage Manshoon where he is located since he is heavily obscured and not HIDDEN.
See above.
Player 1: Throws two daggers and hits, causing damage. Manshoon rolls for Concentration (15), succeeds, and remains invisible. Player 2: Attacks with a crossbow and hits, causing damage. Manshoon rolls for Concentration (12), succeeds, and remains invisible. Player 3: Attacks with a crossbow and hits, causing damage. Manshoon rolls for Concentration (7) fails, and Greater Invisibility goes away and is now seen and heard.
No, he's now seen (assuming nothing else is obscuring him), which generally makes whether or not he's heard immaterial. Being seen does not make you automatically heard, we just don't have rules in the general case for caring about a seen-but-unheard creature. Certainly he's located if he's seen.
As for the Concentration rolls, if the players can deal 22 or more damage in a single blow, the DC for Manshoon's Concentration save will go up.
Questions:
Do I accurately represent how Invisibility (Greater) works in combat? If not, what did I get wrong?
Covered above.
In Round 2, could a player use his action to make a Perception check to locate Manshoon and yell to the others indicating the general location?
Yes. In general, the player trying to hear Manshoon would have to beat Manshoon's rolled Stealth, so in this case, roll a 16 or higher.
Would it remove the unseen and unheard and be unseen and no longer hidden?
No, as Manshoon would still be rendered unseen by the invisible condition.
Are there any gotchas to look out for that I may not have covered?
Player(s): Can attack with disadvantage Manshoon where he is located since he is heavily obscured and not HIDDEN.
Maybe. There's no question they can attack the space they last saw him in. If he casts the spell and then moves, the rules do not cover how challenging he is to locate and you have to rule on it as the DM. Popular rulings (none of these have any more or less RAW support than the others and all of them have consequences beyond mere invisibility, because you also need to worry about darkness/heavy fog/etc, total opaque cover, and anything else that can interfere with sight) include:
Everyone has perfect echolocation, so they automatically know where Manshoon is. This has poor consequences e.g. when trying to set up ambushes based on visibility, as both parties will hear each other coming. It also invalidates interactions with hearing checks, including but not limited to Keen Hearing and Deafened. At least on this forum, this seems to be far and away the most common ruling.
Note that per the DM's Screen (the first 5E one that WOTC sold, I don't think it has any other name), "quiet" sounds are audible out to a random distance of 10'-60' and "normal" sounds are double that: 20'-120' (averages are 35' and 70'). Assuming you're on a grid and Manshoon is trying to be quiet, at 65 or 125 feet (depending on your definitions of quiet and normal), this ruling contradicts the screen's rules. However, the screen may or not be a valid rules source.
It's intrinsically impossible to locate an invisible creature by sound. This has poor consequences e.g. when trying to set up ambushes based on visibility, as neither party will hear each other coming. It also invalidates interactions with hearing checks, including but not limited to Keen Hearing and Deafened.
Note that per the DM's Screen (the first 5E one that WOTC sold, I don't think it has any other name), "quiet" sounds are audible out to a random distance of 10'-60' and "normal" sounds are double that: 20'-120' (averages are 35' and 70'). Assuming you're on a grid and Manshoon is trying to be quiet, within 10 or 20 feet (depending on your definitions of quiet and normal), this ruling contradicts the screen's rules. However, the screen may or not be a valid rules source.
Locating Manshoon requires some Passive Perception (hearing) threshold - note that point 1 above is effectively DC 0 to hear Manshoon while point 2 is DC>30, using the DMG's difficulty scale. There are myriad ways to handle this because WOTC has provided nearly 0 guidance on how to handle it in a fair and balanced fashion. Here are two examples:
If Manshoon's Passive Stealth is greater than someone's Passive Perception, they don't locate him. Otherwise, they do.
Define "located" range for an observer's Passive Perception (Hearing) PP and observed's Passive Stealth (Silence) PS; a creature within range is located, a creature beyond that range is not, when the creature is unseen but has not taken the Hide action: max(0,30+(PP/5-PS/5)*5), rounding each fraction down individually (in other words, for each creature, you can generally record on their character sheet their location range distance modifier in feet ahead of time - e.g. PP 16 is range modifier 15 and PS 16 is range modifier -15). This will behave remarkably similarly to the DM Screen's audible distance for quiet sounds, except that it will scale with Perception and Stealth.
Player 1: Throws two daggers rolls (17, 14) and hits, causing 3 points of damage.
Incorrect. Manshoon can't be seen, so both attack rolls are at disadvantage. Player 1 should roll ((17,X)(14,Y)); assuming Manshoon's AC is 15, 1 dagger will miss because 14<15, and the other will hit if and only if X>=15.
Manshoon rolls for Concentration (11), succeeds, and remains invisible.
Correct, but because the DC on the save was 10, he would have succeeded on a 10 as well.
Player 2: Attacks with crossbow rolls (14,12), and this causes 10 points of damage.
This will hit if and only if Manshoon's AC is 12 or less.
Manshoon rolls for Concentration (18), succeeds, and remains invisible.
The DC of the save is still 10, so an 18 is more than enough.
Manshoon takes the HIDE Action by rolling for a Dexterity(Stealth); in this case, his hidden score is 15. Now he is Unseen and Unheard.
No. Contested checks work by leaving the status quo intact unless the person trying to accomplish something rolls higher, or in other words, "defender" wins ties. Manshoon was always Unseen, due to the spell. Assuming no other variables are in play modifying things, the only creatures who can no longer Hear him are the ones who could Hear him before his check that have a PP of 14 or less.
Manshoon moves 30 feet to the East.
Player(s): Since Manshoon is Unseen and Unheard, the players' do not know where he has gone all attack rolls are still at disadvantage. Player(s): All players' Passive Perception fails.
This is the wrong order of operations, but otherwise yes. You checked PP back when Manshoon took the Hide action.
Player 1: Picks a location, throws two daggers rolls (18, 12), and misses the wrong place.
As above, this should be 2 rolls with Disadvantage, which is 2 pairs of 2 numbers, taking the minimum from each pair.
Player 2: Picks a location, attacks with crossbow rolls (5,10), and misses the wrong place. Player 3: Picks a location, attacks with crossbow rolls (20,15), and misses the wrong place.
Ok.
Round 3
Manshoon lines up his shot and cast Lightning Bolt against two players.
Player 1: Saves and takes half damage. Player 2: Saves and takes half damage.
Manshoon, because he cast Greater Invisibility, remains Invisible, but his location has been revealed, so he falls under the Invisible Condition.
Because Lightning Bolt has a V component, if Manshoon has to supply this component, you are correct. If he has a way to avoid supplying the V component, he does not automatically break Hidden/Unheard.
Player(s): Can attack with disadvantage Manshoon where he is located since he is heavily obscured and not HIDDEN.
See above.
Player 1: Throws two daggers and hits, causing damage. Manshoon rolls for Concentration (15), succeeds, and remains invisible. Player 2: Attacks with a crossbow and hits, causing damage. Manshoon rolls for Concentration (12), succeeds, and remains invisible. Player 3: Attacks with a crossbow and hits, causing damage. Manshoon rolls for Concentration (7) fails, and Greater Invisibility goes away and is now seen and heard.
No, he's now seen (assuming nothing else is obscuring him), which generally makes whether or not he's heard immaterial. Being seen does not make you automatically heard, we just don't have rules in the general case for caring about a seen-but-unheard creature. Certainly he's located if he's seen.
As for the Concentration rolls, if the players can deal 22 or more damage in a single blow, the DC for Manshoon's Concentration save will go up.
Questions:
Do I accurately represent how Invisibility (Greater) works in combat? If not, what did I get wrong?
Covered above.
In Round 2, could a player use his action to make a Perception check to locate Manshoon and yell to the others indicating the general location?
Yes. In general, the player trying to hear Manshoon would have to beat Manshoon's rolled Stealth, so in this case, roll a 16 or higher.
Would it remove the unseen and unheard and be unseen and no longer hidden?
No, as Manshoon would still be rendered unseen by the invisible condition.
Are there any gotchas to look out for that I may not have covered?
Covered everything I can think of.
Wow! That is a lot of information, and I appreciate you taking the time to provide feedback on my question.
I'm going to spend some time reviewing this and make sure I understand your points.
Note: a few items, like the daggers example, has a typo in needed to include, as you pointed out, the other disadvantage roll, which I left out.
TexasDevin Thanks for the link. Yeah is exemple address a different context. Indeed being aware an enemy is hiding somewhere because a ally detected it and knowing where it actually is is different. The latter require successfully perceiving it somehow or getting directions to it's alleged location. Usually whenever a party member discovers a hidden enemy, other players usually learn it metagame wise, especially if the DM says it openly. But personally, i don't necessarily have their characters know this as well until it's communicated in game, especially in the case of a hidden enemy being discovered after combat started that all are unaware of. But most of the time hiding springs from ambush at the start of combat, where one side is surprised by hidden creatures where it's generally told to all by DMs. Other time it's an enemy hiding in combat as a tactic, which is also usually known by everyone loosing track of it the moment it successfully hides. So it's mostly pertinent for enemies the party is unaware of after combat started, which i would only let the info being communicated in game on the character's turn if my goal was to keep it secret somehow. But it's a corner case really.
After listening carefully to what JC says, i believe he is speaking in the context of an ambush one on one. What he said would mess up with Surprise rules if say the moment a solo hidden enemy was detected by at least one party member it failed.
JC: As soon as the player makes that check, they keep that result until someone discovers them or they decide they gonna stop hiding, this is relevant particularly in combat one of the action that you can take in combat on your turn is to hide and you need to spend your whole action doing it and this rule mean, let's say you wanna hide for multiple rounds, you don't keep making Dexretiry (Stealth) checks round after round, you make it once. Basically what it means is that you only need to spend one action trying to hide and then once you've done it, you keep whatever that result was until you're no longer hidden because you ran out of hiding, made a loud noise or someone discovered you as soon as that happens, even one person discovers you, basically that nullifies whatever you rolled, you gonna have to hide again you gonna have to make another check. What that means in combat is that you're gonna have to spend your action doing that again.
Surprise: Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter... A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
I know that what JC says in interviews is not RAW, but he has gone on record saying that as soon as one enemy has discovered an invisible/hidden creature, all the enemy's allies know where it is as well. Presumably, they spread the word as part of the background banter that goes on. This statement is not corroborated anywhere in the rules as far as I am aware.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Another important thing i enforce during combat is that creatures may only communicate on their turn, through brief utterances and gestures. So when a hidden creature moves on it's turn, anyone who had discovered it can only mention it to others when their own turn comes up.
Not in the rules AFAIK. Can you link us to where JC said that?
Oof. I should expect to be called out for this.
They changed the way Dragon Talk works now, and I cannot link directly to it, but here's the Dragon Talk page. You want episode 120 (James Haeck on D&D writing) and the part you want begins exactly 18:00 into the episode.
EDIT: I slightly misquoted what he said. He said as soon as even one enemy discovers you, your attempt at stealth ends. That isn't exactly the same as saying everyone knows where you are, although the first can directly cause the second.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
search on that page: James Haeck on D&D Writing.Nevermind
This will hit if and only if Manshoon's AC is 12 or less.
The DC of the save is still 10, so an 18 is more than enough.
This is the wrong order of operations, but otherwise yes. You checked PP back when Manshoon took the Hide action.
As above, this should be 2 rolls with Disadvantage, which is 2 pairs of 2 numbers, taking the minimum from each pair.
Ok.
Because Lightning Bolt has a V component, if Manshoon has to supply this component, you are correct. If he has a way to avoid supplying the V component, he does not automatically break Hidden/Unheard.
See above.
No, he's now seen (assuming nothing else is obscuring him), which generally makes whether or not he's heard immaterial. Being seen does not make you automatically heard, we just don't have rules in the general case for caring about a seen-but-unheard creature. Certainly he's located if he's seen.
As for the Concentration rolls, if the players can deal 22 or more damage in a single blow, the DC for Manshoon's Concentration save will go up.
Covered above.
Yes. In general, the player trying to hear Manshoon would have to beat Manshoon's rolled Stealth, so in this case, roll a 16 or higher.
No, as Manshoon would still be rendered unseen by the invisible condition.
Covered everything I can think of.
Wow! That is a lot of information, and I appreciate you taking the time to provide feedback on my question.
I'm going to spend some time reviewing this and make sure I understand your points.
Note: a few items, like the daggers example, has a typo in needed to include, as you pointed out, the other disadvantage roll, which I left out.
TexasDevin Thanks for the link. Yeah is exemple address a different context. Indeed being aware an enemy is hiding somewhere because a ally detected it and knowing where it actually is is different. The latter require successfully perceiving it somehow or getting directions to it's alleged location. Usually whenever a party member discovers a hidden enemy, other players usually learn it metagame wise, especially if the DM says it openly. But personally, i don't necessarily have their characters know this as well until it's communicated in game, especially in the case of a hidden enemy being discovered after combat started that all are unaware of. But most of the time hiding springs from ambush at the start of combat, where one side is surprised by hidden creatures where it's generally told to all by DMs. Other time it's an enemy hiding in combat as a tactic, which is also usually known by everyone loosing track of it the moment it successfully hides. So it's mostly pertinent for enemies the party is unaware of after combat started, which i would only let the info being communicated in game on the character's turn if my goal was to keep it secret somehow. But it's a corner case really.
After listening carefully to what JC says, i believe he is speaking in the context of an ambush one on one. What he said would mess up with Surprise rules if say the moment a solo hidden enemy was detected by at least one party member it failed.
JC: As soon as the player makes that check, they keep that result until someone discovers them or they decide they gonna stop hiding, this is relevant particularly in combat one of the action that you can take in combat on your turn is to hide and you need to spend your whole action doing it and this rule mean, let's say you wanna hide for multiple rounds, you don't keep making Dexretiry (Stealth) checks round after round, you make it once. Basically what it means is that you only need to spend one action trying to hide and then once you've done it, you keep whatever that result was until you're no longer hidden because you ran out of hiding, made a loud noise or someone discovered you as soon as that happens, even one person discovers you, basically that nullifies whatever you rolled, you gonna have to hide again you gonna have to make another check. What that means in combat is that you're gonna have to spend your action doing that again.
I wish I could give more than one upvote. That's a nice comprehensive review of the question.